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A blue puzzle

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Johan S
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A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:44 am

At some stage the forum was discussing various blue phenotypes. So here are some pictures.

Bird 1
Image

Bird 2
Image

Comparison
Image

I'm sure most will agree, it will be hard for most breeders, even the experienced ones, to distinguish between these two birds when they are not next to one another.

Now let's test the mettle of our members. The question and riddle, what are we looking at?

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madas
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by madas » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:12 am

One is SA "Deep" blue and the other Misty Violetblue.

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Ring0Neck
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:13 am

madas wrote:One is SA "Deep" blue and the other Misty Violetblue.
I agree :mrgreen:

If wrong second option is: Both are of the same mutation (one could be SF one DF) or one carries different structural mutations than the other.
Left Violet? Right Cobalt?
I think you have these birds noted same as Madas's reply. but are they?
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Anthony anth Mc Geer
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:28 am

NT Deep and cobalt

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Gratz
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Gratz » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:42 am

I would have said
bird 1 SA Deep and bird 2 misty violet
but yes without them side by side it would be very difficult to tell, they both look like deep blue

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sheyd
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by sheyd » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:04 am

I'll go with both are of the same mutation but are expressing it slightly differently due to unknown factors.. until I see a picture from behind :P

Johan S
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:44 am

Interesting guesses by all, but I suggest everyone look at the very first sentence again. :wink: We are looking at blue birds, no cobalt, violet or NT deep. Not yet, in any case... :)

Let's give it another go. :D

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:51 am

One on the Right normal blue?

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Ring0Neck
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:07 am

Are we looking at Oz Deep V Blue?
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:29 am

Ok, so moving on a bit. The one on the right is a normal blue. Second one is something different, most likely structural. It is a more vibrant blue and only so ever slightly darker. Let's keep things going for a while. What am I? :?:

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:37 am

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got the one on the right right hahahahaha.....this is even a better game than ps3

Sanzaf1
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Sanzaf1 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:14 am

Greetings all
Very interesting bird Johan he is lighter then the cobalt yet darker then a blue.
:? Im gna say oz deep aswel
Will b unteresting to see what hebis exactly
@ ant -uve being missing out mate

Many thanks

Mad Max
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Mad Max » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:19 am

I would go with a Misty , I would like to see the back of both birds

Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:13 pm

Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory. :roll:

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madas
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by madas » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:26 pm

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory. :roll:
Any source which is showing this observation? Never heart of this from Babu.

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:16 am

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory. :roll:
Paul, this is an interesting idea and at the conclusion of the puzzle, will have a lot of relevance. However, like Madas, I'm hoping that there exists some more background. The only reference I have to Babu and two different blues is the article written by Babu on his account of the emeralds bred by his friend Bala in the early '90s. As mentioned, the second blue turned out to be emerald, and not blue.

I'm not exactly sure what you refer to as blue evolution theory. It is important, however, to keep in mind that blue removes or inhibits the ability to produce psittacin (yellow) in parrots/parakeets, so there is no reason (that I know of, but I don't know everything, that's for sure) to believe that blue1 and blue2 would look any different. Once we remove all psittacins (blue1 or blue2), and observe a difference, like in the birds photographed, we are in all likelihood looking at something other than the blue mutation, and rather a structural mutation or melanistic mutation.

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:51 am

Mad Max wrote:I would go with a Misty , I would like to see the back of both birds
OK, so seeing as we don't have any more participants, the first prize goes to Robert. :D

What we are looking at is a blue misty cock. It is not a strongly marked misty, but the misty shimmering is certainly there when the bird moves into the shadow. Notice the brighter, more brilliant blue colour.

But, the puzzle isn't complete. Let's enter a third participant. Unfortunately a youngster being compared to mature birds, but still interesting enough. The slaty effect on the wings is damage due to handraising and can be safely ignored. Continue to compare the base colour of the bellies.

Bird 3
Image
Image

What am I?

Hint: Not blue, not misty.

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Lushen1600
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Lushen1600 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:05 am

Well I will go with -----?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Lushen1600
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Lushen1600 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:04 am

Here's some pics of a blue turq, is the chest/bellies similar to what you looking at in the blue male and young blue bird

Image

Image

Image

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:04 pm

Hi
I refer to Terry Martin's theory re duplication of the blue locus Deon Smith book 2012 page 72 there is a better publication on this subject printed elsewhere but I need to find it .This information is readily available and is regularly discussed locally around here I'm surprised you haven't come across it. Will send a copy to Johan and he might publish it for me as I have had no luck.
Cheers
Paul

Recio
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Recio » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:24 am

Johan S wrote:
Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory. :roll:
Paul, this is an interesting idea and at the conclusion of the puzzle, will have a lot of relevance. However, like Madas, I'm hoping that there exists some more background. The only reference I have to Babu and two different blues is the article written by Babu on his account of the emeralds bred by his friend Bala in the early '90s. As mentioned, the second blue turned out to be emerald, and not blue.

I'm not exactly sure what you refer to as blue evolution theory. It is important, however, to keep in mind that blue removes or inhibits the ability to produce psittacin (yellow) in parrots/parakeets, so there is no reason (that I know of, but I don't know everything, that's for sure) to believe that blue1 and blue2 would look any different. Once we remove all psittacins (blue1 or blue2), and observe a difference, like in the birds photographed, we are in all likelihood looking at something other than the blue mutation, and rather a structural mutation or melanistic mutation.
Hi Johan,

You are rigth saying that Blue-1 and Blue-2 should show the same phenotype but we should keep in mind that the neighbour genes of each Blue are different, and whenever a gene acting on the final colour phenotype is located near one of the Blue genes (linked), it will be inherited as a single unit, and the apparent final phenotype could be different.

In this line of thougth, and following Babu's ideas, I am wandering if what we call Emerald could be a combo of a blue or parblue mutation (Aqua type?) highly linked to an structural mutation producing the specific non psittacin dependent features (iridescence, fluorescence, non age or hormone dependency,...).

Time will tell us.

Best regards

Recio

Johan S
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:41 am

Recio wrote:You are rigth saying that Blue-1 and Blue-2 should show the same phenotype but we should keep in mind that the neighbour genes of each Blue are different, and whenever a gene acting on the final colour phenotype is located near one of the Blue genes (linked), it will be inherited as a single unit, and the apparent final phenotype could be different.
Recio, welcome back! Where have you been hiding out? :D

Although in principle what your are saying makes a lot of sense, I don't think I necessarily agree with everything for the specific example. The blue gene doesn't produce the blue colour, but rather influences the production of psittacin (or making the psittacin molecule ineffective). And with psittacin production considered later in the metabolic pathway, after melanin and feather structure has been put in place, I don't think it will influence the base blue colour resulting from melanin and feather nano-structure. However, the "apparent psittacin" (say an inefficient one, but not completely removed one) deposited is another matter (the deep mutation might fit in here), where your point is true. One last thought, when we consider blue1 and blue2 to be allelic like in the budgerigar (and not at different locii), then the neighbouring genes will be the same for both blue types.

Thoughts?

Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:48 pm

Hi Recio what I mean by blue evolution was extracted from T Martin first publication where he explained the rational behind it the theory is based on the blue locus in IRN was damaged or interfere with during its EVOLUTIONARY journey causing the locus to split or duplicate this summary is precise when read in its original text which I cannot access.Deon used part of his text in his book however he has only published an extract from the original.

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:50 pm

Hi Johan
Slightly brighter looking blues in a clutch is something I and others in NSW have seen before, much like your example. I have always assumed it was a result of probably recessive "modifier genes" paired up in one bird but not others. I did have one such bird this season but unfortunately she has been sold as a very nice blue.
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:00 pm

Hi
Does anyone know why this frustrating forum will post some of my photos but not others?
Kind regards
Mike

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sheyd
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by sheyd » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:34 pm

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi
Does anyone know why this frustrating forum will post some of my photos but not others?
Kind regards
Mike
I notice that too with some of the attachments from the menu bar- far less frustrating to upload my pics to photobucket http://s920.photobucket.com/
and then select the image code, and paste it on here.

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Johan
Slightly brighter looking blues in a clutch is something I and others in NSW have seen before, much like your example. I have always assumed it was a result of probably recessive "modifier genes" paired up in one bird but not others. I did have one such bird this season but unfortunately she has been sold as a very nice blue.
Kind regards
Mike
Thanks for that, Mike. I also believe that modifiers can play a role many times. One question I suppose is, when one isolates the modifiers, and develop the inheritance pattern for it, does it become a recognised mutation? If you see this variation in the same nest of youngsters, then there is something to it. In this case, the mature misty blue cock has produced offspring carrying the same phenotype, and the youngster from a third hen (yet to be identified as part of the puzzle/game) looks to carry the same gene as his mother.

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Mikesringnecks » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:20 am

Hi Johan
I would have thought that a modifier could become a new mutation if it was isolated and developed. In some way,s is that not what Janee Salan was meant to have done to develop her recessive "american pieds".
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Mad Max » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:50 pm

Johan

I dont know much about the Bronse Fallows yet but I think bird 3 might be one

Robert

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madas
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by madas » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:30 am

Mad Max wrote:Johan

I dont know much about the Bronse Fallows yet but I think bird 3 might be one

Robert
def. not.

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madas
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by madas » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:31 am

Johan S wrote:
Mad Max wrote:I would go with a Misty , I would like to see the back of both birds
OK, so seeing as we don't have any more participants, the first prize goes to Robert. :D

What we are looking at is a blue misty cock. It is not a strongly marked misty, but the misty shimmering is certainly there when the bird moves into the shadow. Notice the brighter, more brilliant blue colour.

But, the puzzle isn't complete. Let's enter a third participant. Unfortunately a youngster being compared to mature birds, but still interesting enough. The slaty effect on the wings is damage due to handraising and can be safely ignored. Continue to compare the base colour of the bellies.

Bird 3
Image
Image

What am I?

Hint: Not blue, not misty.
Azure blue???

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sheyd
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by sheyd » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:38 am

Interesting on the two mature cocks- I thought perhaps one may have been Misty- but only because I know who they belong to.. lol They look pretty much the same to me from the front. I have a couple of Blues where one is slightly (but noticeably) darker than the other- that when I brought the lighter cock home, I knew straight away of the difference even though they are not kept together (I have their central tail feathers in Ringo's feather thread if anyone is interested)- that's why I suggested unknown modifiers but both having the same mutation- those two cocks above could be my own.

no idea on the chick.. waiting for the answer :)

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:20 am

madas wrote:
Johan S wrote:But, the puzzle isn't complete. Let's enter a third participant. Unfortunately a youngster being compared to mature birds, but still interesting enough. The slaty effect on the wings is damage due to handraising and can be safely ignored. Continue to compare the base colour of the bellies.

Bird 3

What am I?

Hint: Not blue, not misty.
Azure blue???
And we have our winner for round two. :D

So, who would like to share some ideas?

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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:45 pm






I have a thought:

Pair up the Azure to Oz Deep for a season.

I'm an Explorer
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Johan S
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:34 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:




I have a thought:

Pair up the Azure to Oz Deep for a season.

I have a feeling nothing will come of it. Being two hens won't help the matter at all, either. :lol:

But I like where your train of thought is heading. It's a good experiment.

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Ring0Neck
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:11 am



Johan,

Do you have any pics of the Misty & Azure from the back (wings)?

10x
I'm an Explorer
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Johan S » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:27 pm

Unfortunately not.

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Ring0Neck
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:51 pm

Hi Skyes,

How did you go this breeding season?
Pic 1- both birds look the same. But they are different. The bird on the left is genetically a parblue. Parents are 1,0 Turquoise sf Violet X 0,1 TurquoiseBlue. See pic 2.
Two things to consider here:
1. Indeed the left bird could be TurquoiseBlue, being a young bird psittacine is not yet visible which we see in some TurquoiseBlues having the "delayed effect".
2. It could also be a Blue, If both parents are TurquoiseBlues (+ - Violet) pair will still breed 25% Blues.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know

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Skyes_crew
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by Skyes_crew » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:09 pm

I thought of that Ben, so pulled the bird just to be sure. Here is what I found

Image

Image

I originally removed my posts because I thought maybe I was asking a stupid question or seeing something that isn't there. Did you get a chance to see all the pics I posted before deleting them?
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image

ErnieisAwesome
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by ErnieisAwesome » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:31 pm

Hi . Im new so please forgive my ignorance on the color guessing but i have a question . Ive noticed alot of breeders asking " what color is this one " and so on but if you are the breeder and you knew the hens & cock , wouldn't you know what color the babies were going to be or is it a gamble every time ? Are birds like humans when it comes to that ? For instance , my IRN is just green . Ig i mated him with a white IRN I'm guessing they would have green & white babies ?
Thanks !

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prodigy
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Re: A blue puzzle

Post by prodigy » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:55 pm

Bird 1 = Azure

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