The things that make you go hmmm

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Carr.birds
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds »

Ben & Johan

Imo it is a harlequin opaline. Must admit it is a beautiful bird.

Tienie
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »



Thank you both.

it is not my bird, i wish :) , however i have a 2y o son violet green/o? from him i paired to a deep blue hen & i expect to see opaline deep hens end of season .

The bird in the pic is a proven breeder of opalines and the breeder tells me it is H /opaline!

I was/still am pretty sure it is the H & O combo

Now, there's only 2 things to consider:
1. It is an allelic H&O combo as it would be say PallidINO
this way breeding opalines from him would simulate like a split Opaline breeding results.
in this case making the Harlequin : Heterosomal Dom.? in inheritance!? (or we have 2 sl & 1 dom. mutations in this bird)

2. It is H/O however Opaline is visibly identifiable. which would redirect us back to point 1 or similar.

Thoughts?



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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote:

Thank you both.

it is not my bird, i wish :) , however i have a 2y o son violet green/o? from him i paired to a deep blue hen & i expect to see opaline deep hens end of season .

The bird in the pic is a proven breeder of opalines and the breeder tells me it is H /opaline!

I was/still am pretty sure it is the H & O combo

Now, there's only 2 things to consider:
1. It is an allelic H&O combo as it would be say PallidINO
this way breeding opalines from him would simulate like a split Opaline breeding results.
in this case making the Harlequin : Heterosomal Dom.? in inheritance!? (or we have 2 sl & 1 dom. mutations in this bird)

2. It is H/O however Opaline is visibly identifiable. which would redirect us back to point 1 or similar.

Thoughts?



Hi Ben,

i can't see a Harlequin Opaline combo in this pic. First it's very hard to find an opaline male showing such a "red" neckring. Personally i only know 2 or 3. Second if an opaline male is showing a "red" neckring then it should be much more wider and fading from red to green towards the tail. The "gradient" then is at least 3cm wide. Third the whole body color is to light for a dom. pied opaline combo. So i would go with the breeder: dom. pied /opaline.

bird of SB:

Image

bird of LB:

Image

madas
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Madas, that specific greygreen opaline cock is the only one I've seen with such a large extended red region in the neck ring. Do you know of others/have pictures? I just about given up on finding more, and have considered that it is the combined effect of both grey and opaline in green series. Would love to see a normal green opaline with the same extended neck ring.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote:Madas, that specific greygreen opaline cock is the only one I've seen with such a large extended red region in the neck ring. Do you know of others/have pictures? I just about given up on finding more, and have considered that it is the combined effect of both grey and opaline in green series. Would love to see a normal green opaline with the same extended neck ring.
I thought i have posted two pics. :D
The green one is showing the same nice red gradient on the neck but in a very bright form. ;)

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »




Looking from Stefan's perspective, it seems to fit the profile of a pied without opaline see below:

This afternoon i took some pics (not the best :cry: The sun was in my eyes :lol: )

Green Pied (same bird approx. 7 y old) - Blue Pied - DF Pied - first 2 mature
Image
a clearer pic
Image

Below an Opaline Pied mature hen.

Image

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds »

Ben, Johan and Stefan

If you compare the tail of the opaline harlequin hen with a harlequin or opaline you will see that it is darker then both opaline and harlequin. Why ?

Must admit some Ozy breeders say it isn't worth producing the combo but for my eyes it is beautiful.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »



My suspicion is that not all pied-opaline phenotypes will be the same.

since the pieds have a variety of phenotypes it will no doubt alter how an opaline-pied combo will look like depending on type of pied used.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas »

Carr.birds wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: Below an Opaline Pied mature hen.

Image
If you compare the tail of the opaline harlequin hen with a harlequin or opaline you will see that it is darker then both opaline and harlequin. Why ?
The opaline harlequin in Bens pic looks like a violetgreen so not a surprise that the tail is darker. ;)

Regarding the dom. pied types: i have noticed at least two types. Both show a nice pied pattern as youngsters but then fully matured only one of them is still showing it. The other has a dilute body color without pied markings. Only sign of pied are yellow resp. white main flights and tail (i think they are called clearflights). With the "clearflight" type you won't be able to breed "saddlebacks" but with the other you are.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote: Regarding the dom. pied types: i have noticed at least two types. Both show a nice pied pattern as youngsters but then fully matured only one of them is still showing it. The other has a dilute body color without pied markings. Only sign of pied are yellow resp. white main flights and tail (i think they are called clearflights). With the "clearflight" type you won't be able to breed "saddlebacks" but with the other you are.

madas
I thought about this, any i suspected the opposite of your conclusion but i think it does not matter at all and both types will produce
saddlebacks, one will have more scallopping than the other.

The not so nice ones (clearflight looking) are amongst the first pieds bred by Jack Smith here in OZ & the nicer 1s most likely bred through other minor modifiers added through breeding.

I have as an Outsider the Deep as the cause of saddlebacks, but not enough evidence thus far.
the effect of emerald like, smooth colors must be coming from a third mutation that affects the whole body of the bird

Here is what i mean (the effect Deep has on emerald in this instance)
pic below:
Deep Violet EmeraldBlue V Cobalt Violet EmeraldBlue
something to think about...

Image
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Carr.birds wrote:Ben, Johan and Stefan

If you compare the tail of the opaline harlequin hen with a harlequin or opaline you will see that it is darker then both opaline and harlequin. Why ?

Must admit some Ozy breeders say it isn't worth producing the combo but for my eyes it is beautiful.

Tienie
Excellent question, Tienie. It seems counter intuitive that two diluting actions working together could produce a darker region than any of the individual actions. But I suppose this is synergy and exactly what Aristotle was on about. Just like with the dilute and SL dom. edged. mutation.
Ring0Neck wrote:

My suspicion is that not all pied-opaline phenotypes will be the same.

since the pieds have a variety of phenotypes it will no doubt alter how an opaline-pied combo will look like depending on type of pied used.
Ben, I agree. I think the same will happen with the adm rec pieds combined with opaline. Here in SA I haven't seen a lot of breeders being selective with their adm pieds, with most simply trying to be the first to produce the combination.
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Re: The things that make you go SLD mutation

Post by Ring0Neck »


Regarding the Edged.

* The inheritance mode of Edged, has it been proven beyond doubt?
Has the breeding tests been performed by more than 1 breeder and non-related stock?



Ignoring what we know regarding Edge, here is a possible model inheritance formula for the Edged.
Everything is very relevant and connected in the bigger picture.

Edged is a dominant mutation but It is allelic to SL Rec mutations, 2 of them being Opaline & Cinnamon.


A Cinnamon-Edged gives us the SL D Edged as we know it.
* When i got my first Edged birds from a breeder that has been breeding them for many years he said:
"I was the one that proved that you can not split the cinnamon from edged"
I said/thought at the time, because of his pairings setup, very few birds will be edged only.
he had edged/cin x cin edged hens or edged cinn x edged cinn.

Remember PallidINO?
My method to test if a male is /INO i put him to Pallid hen, breeding results could be considered SL D as no splits will be bred.

You know where i'm going with this... but i'll stop here.

Thoughts?


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Re: The things that make you go SLD mutation

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: Edged is a dominant mutation but It is allelic to SL Rec mutations, 2 of them being Opaline & Cinnamon.
Edged isn't allelic (allelic = allele of same locus???) to them but it is linked with them on the sex chromosomes.
Ring0Neck wrote: I was the one that proved that you can not split the cinnamon from edged
Sounds like he stucked with the extrem low crossover rate between both mutations. :D

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

Thanks Madas,

Allelic is the wrong word in this instance for what i was trying to portait.
linked with them on the sex chromosomes - Yes.

One thing is to work out the how and another to translate it in genetical terms. I enjoy the first part :D

Tienie,
Would you have an updated pic of the Edged-Opaline you could post for us?
Thanks
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

Actually,

I was right in using allelic for what i want to speculate.

Here is another instance:

Edged-Opaline hen x wildtype
Breeding result i want to achieve from pair above to be the same as TurquoiseBlue to a wildtype

1,0 green x 0,1 turquoiseBlue

50% green /blue
50% green /turquoise

Replace Blue with Edged & Turquoise with Opaline = in this instance one can not get guaranteed split opaline in males.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Ben, if that were true, the heterozygous edged heterozygous opaline cock would breed either edged or opaline hens. This is not the case from our breeding results with such a cock. We have produced edged, opaline and edged-opaline hens that I recall. Of course, being allelic, one wouldn't be able to produce a normal or edged-opaline hen. Being at different locii, even if linked, it would be possible. Tienie's edged-opaline hen was bred from a similar cock, so it further supports the premise of being linked rather than allelic.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

Thanks Johan,
Tienie's edged-opaline hen was bred from a similar cock, so it further supports the premise of being linked rather than allelic.


and Opaline mother?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... mother.jpg
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds »

Ben

It started like this:

df edged blue & grey opaline/dilute

results for 2 years (2008 & 2009)
4,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute?
1,0 sf edged blue/opaline/dilute?
0,4 edged grey/dilute?
0,1 edged blue/dilute?

from this I paired

(A) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute? & green opaline/turq

results in 2012(not taken poss split dilute into account)
1,0 sf edged greygreen/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged green/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged turqblue/opaline
0,1 edged greygreen/blue
0,1 edged-opaline green/blue

(B) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute & turqblue chf (setup at a friend)

results in 2011
1,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 opaline grey/chf/dilute
2012
2,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 edged-opaline blue/chf/dilute?
0,1 edged turqblue/chf/dilute?

2013
brother and sister from 2011 paired
1,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute/opaline & opaline grey/chf/dilute

resluts
0,0,1 edged-opaline grey dilute(not sure will send pic)
will get rest of results

(C) 1,0 sf edged blue/opaline/dilute? & opaline blue dilute

results in 2013
0,0,2 edged-opaline blue/dilute (from their behaviour I believe it to be cocks)

The father 1,0 sf edged blue/opaline/dilute? was paired to a second hen in 2013 (cinnamon blue)

results
0,0,2 blue
0,0,1 cinnamon blue
0,1 edged-opaline blue

This also then indicate that he must be 1,0 sf edged/opaline/cinnamon/dilute? if all 4 babies are his. I moved the hen from a cinnamon blue cock because it didn't look like they were compatable. She laid her 1st egg within 3 days after moving her to the sf edged blue/opaline/dilute? cock. Can any one tell me who is the father of the babies? The cinnamon blue was the first egg to hatch.

Johan can also add his results

Tienie
Last edited by Carr.birds on Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »



Tienie,

Thanks heaps for that info.

There's a lot of edged from an Sf in these results but indeed possible.
(A) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute? & green opaline/turq

results in 2012(not taken poss split dilute into account)
1,0 sf edged greygreen/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged green/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged turqblue/opaline
0,1 edged greygreen/blue
0,1 edged-opaline green/blue

(B) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute & turqblue chf (setup at a friend)

results in 2011
1,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 opaline grey/chf/dilute
2012
2,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 edged-opaline blue/chf/dilute?
0,1 edged turqblue/chf/dilute?


calculator expected results from this pair indicates:

1,0 Edged(EF) Edged Grey blue /opaline x 0,1 opaline green /turquoise

1,0 6.25% green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged Grey green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged Grey turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 6.25% Grey green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Grey turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 6.25% opaline turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged Grey green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged Grey turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% opaline green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Grey green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Grey turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% turquoiseBlue /opaline

0,1 6.25% green /blue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged green /blue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% turquoiseBlue

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds »

Ben

Yes it was strange to me. I am pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that the original cock was a df edged blue but don't know how to explain it genetically.

Tienie
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

It would make sense it if the hen grey opaline/dilute was also carrying edged
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote: Thanks Johan,
Tienie's edged-opaline hen was bred from a similar cock, so it further supports the premise of being linked rather than allelic.


and Opaline mother?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... mother.jpg
Ben, I don't think there is any question about opaline being sex-linked. Thus, the opaline mother is not relevant to the discussion of daughters, as only sons will inherit the gene. One can actually trace the exact progress of which opaline gene is going where by realising this. It is, surprisingly, much more fun than it sounds. :D

As for the results, my dad has produced from his grey edged / opaline (from Tienie) x turqblue opaline (all edged are SF):
1-0 grey turqblue edged-opaline
1-0 grey turqblue edged/opaline
1-0 blue edged/opaline
1-0 blue opaline
0-1 grey turqblue edged-opaline
0-1 grey turqblue edged
0-1 grey opaline
0-1 grey edged

Turquoise and opaline have behaved splendidly according to theoretical expectations. Grey and edge seems to have misunderstood the concept of 'dominant', with 75% in both cases to the expected 50%. Almost all of these birds were sold, so pictures aren't available unfortunately.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

, I don't think there is any question about opaline being sex-linked. Thus, the opaline mother is not relevant to the discussion of daughters, as only sons will inherit the gene.


Sure thing Johan.

I know the rules, rules don't stop me looking about when s-thing doesn't quiet match the expected, besides a mutation can be assigned a wrong inheritance model and unless we look closely we'll never know we used wrong model of inheritance.
as they say close enough is not good enough. :D

I was looking at interaction relationship of Opaline and other SL~SL D or other type mutation/s like edged that might be allelic or linked that could alter results when paired together.

Edged throws a few surprises in phenotype when combined with certain mutations IMO, although i have limited experience with breeding them i'm keen to get a close look at them and watch the breeding results more closely.

I also suspect the possibility of a mutated variant Edged here in OZ, perhaps ...


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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:
, I don't think there is any question about opaline being sex-linked. Thus, the opaline mother is not relevant to the discussion of daughters, as only sons will inherit the gene.


Sure thing Johan.

I know the rules, rules don't stop me looking about when s-thing doesn't quiet match the expected, besides a mutation can be assigned a wrong inheritance model and unless we look closely we'll never know we used wrong model of inheritance.
as they say close enough is not good enough. :D
I hear you. Like for example the grey mutation. I always get the feeling that more grey offspring is produced than the predicted 50/50. And I've seen darker greys than others (possible DF?).
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer »

now this makes me go hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Breeder Willie Mc Geer
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas »

Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:now this makes me go hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Breeder Willie Mc Geer
stress lines?
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer »

No still unkown..but bred out of Grizzle female
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas »

Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:No still unkown..but bred out of Grizzle female
Any pic of the mother. :)
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer »

Hahaha nooo can't get a pic of her.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd »

Ring0Neck wrote: I also suspect the possibility of a mutated variant Edged here in OZ, perhaps ...

I have been thinking about this, and I suspect you maybe right-- I have since visited the nest brother of my young edged cock- he is just as light/same shade of colour as his brother. I will try and get pics next time I'm there to show there isn't much difference between them.

It has made me wonder if Cinnamon is/was ever- involved at all. 3 in the nest- 2 edged 1 normal. the two edged cocks are phenotypically Cinnamon looking- the normal is just a 'normal' Green hen.

What are the odds of a split Cinn cock (paired of-course to a Cinn) producing 2 Cinn cocks and a normal hen? Being a logical kind of person id expect a combination... or maybe I was just lucky?

hopefully I'll get the answers this breeding season when I pair the /?Cinnamon cock to a Cinnamon without edged.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Shey, another thing to consider is that the ruby eye of the cinnamon tends to darken. I bet a few/lot? of breeders have been sitting with edged hens and thought they were cinnamon, and vice versa.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd »

yes- but in an edged bird, (if it's there) the Cinnamon eyes are gone- Does anyone know if they do actually hatch any shade of red? - neither of my SL Edged cocks were and none light up red with a flash (which is what one should expect I think even if they were to be also visual Cinn.

That's why this up and coming season is important- I should be able to find out if the Wildtype sire (of my two edged cocks) is split Cinn fairly easily.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

This should make you go Hmmmmmmm :shock:

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/Aaron.jpg (7Mb file)

??back to the
Image
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Ben, maybe if you share the story / background that probably came along with that pic the rest of us will be able to follow too... :D
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

:lol:

I was hoping you'd pick it up by the file name.

we're looking at green violet CT /emerald
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote::lol:

I was hoping you'd pick it up by the file name.

we're looking at green violet CT /emerald
Because of???? I can't see any green series bird in this pic. :(
Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

That's the reason for my second picture ;)

I just emailed Aaron to confirm again that the bird in the pic is what i said.
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Johan S
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote::lol:

I was hoping you'd pick it up by the file name.

we're looking at green violet CT /emerald
I noticed the filename, but thought this must have been a different family of birds. Where's the green one, though? :?: If that bird paired to a violet blue/CT gave green offspring as first reported, we're going to need a bigger drawing board. :shock:
Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »


I asked Aaron to send me an updated pic of the /emerald because he said he got a new camera.
This is what i got. :?


EDIT: I just remembered that the /emerald was not a visual CT but a /CT. old age i guess.
Being in an identical cage i assumed ... ( i hate assumptions esp. when other do it) :lol: slightly more forgiving with myself :?

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Johan S
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:EDIT: I just remembered that the /emerald was not a visual CT but a /CT. old age i guess.
Being in an identical cage i assumed ... ( i hate assumptions esp. when other do it) :lol: slightly more forgiving with myself :?
Uhm... Yeah... In http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=18238 you posted
Ring0Neck wrote:Pair:
Green CT/emerald X violet blue/CT

Offspring:
Violet Emerald/ct
Green/blue/ct
Now I'm confused. Please feel free to straighten me out. :D
Johan S
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S »

Johan S wrote:Shey, another thing to consider is that the ruby eye of the cinnamon tends to darken. I bet a few/lot? of breeders have been sitting with edged hens and thought they were cinnamon, and vice versa.
I don't particularly like quoting myself...

@Shey, consider again the point above, but I suppose we don't have to limit it to hens. Now have a look at this bird that was recently advertised on an Oz FB page as a cobalt cinnamon cock.

Image

Thoughts?
sheyd
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd »

yes- I spotted him right away- he now belongs to my friend Nigel :mrgreen:

prob lies with Oz not being up to speed with the rest of the world- they simply don't know what they are- if it's lighter then it's Cinnamon no questions asked :roll:


I will ask if I can upload some wing shots-- he is beautiful!
Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »


Johan,

The correct pairing i posted here, i was passing on info from phonecalls as best as i remembered
I acquired the green violet/ct offspring hen just to do a third test , as it should be split Blue if Emerald is Parblue.

http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 24#p109191
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prodigy
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by prodigy »

madas wrote:
Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:now this makes me go hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Breeder Willie Mc Geer
stress lines?
definitely stress lines will molt out, post pic's after 18 month molt

.
Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

Here's my avatar bird pic taken with sun behind me (mother of pied below)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/ava.JPG


Zoom into the pied's tail, you'll notice main tail feather shaft is black second feather shaft is not


http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3090596.JPG


interesting reading below:
"As the feather develops, cells in specific regions die, allowing the feather to split open like the pages of a book."
quote from: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... 745293.htm
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Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

I'm an Explorer
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Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »

Could Violet show in a Grey masking violet pied?


Here's a pic (on the shoulder n tail).

http://parakeet.me/irn/P3090644.JPG

http://parakeet.me/irn/P3090642.JPG
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sheyd
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd »

Ben- can you see with your eye the violet colouring- or is it something the camera picks up on?
Ring0Neck
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck »


I see it with naked eye but again not 100% certain as i can not get close enough to him.
I will need to move him to another cage after the rains so i will have a good look at it.

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