The things that make you go hmmm

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The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:44 pm

download and zoom in, saddle/wing area
just started going through its 6m moult

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/g.jpg
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:59 am

parents?

Mauve Violett or Violett(df)darkblue with Turq?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:45 am

I just did a visual inspection (did not catch the bird) and with naked eye & i can not see the "mauve" on its back/wings. it is now late afternoon before dark, no sunlight.
So this bird pictured from what i can tell is a Grey Turquoise masking any of/or all DDV mutations.

Parents: Grey Pied male X Turquoise + possibly all 3 structural mutations (DDV) hen
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:51 am

Pair had 4 young
2 Grey? Turquoise (i only have the 1 pictured left)
1 Grey? Turq. Pied
1 TurquoiseBlue carrying 2 or 3 structural mutations (not sure yet)

having 3/4 grey, I obviously suspected the male to be masking Dark, but the grey young did not show signs of mauve prior to today.
Talked to Ron : Aquired him from Ron and it was bred from a Grey Pied from Chris W. and he said, no Cobalt as far as he knows, it was possibly split CT" He said.

Another pic
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/P2069662.JPG
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:24 am

So it's a sibling of the grey pied with the orange pied markings???
Any news reagarding this bird?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:45 am

Sibling pied pic below taken today.
not the best quality pics as i took random pics did not aim to take pics of him

front view
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/P2069530.JPG


Image
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:47 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Sibling pied pic below taken today.
not the best quality pics as i took random pics did not aim to take pics of him

front view
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/P2069530.JPG


Image
Hm for my eyes the prove "saddleback" is nothing more then a Dom. pied x turq. Your thoughts?
Last edited by madas on Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:05 am



I hope to answer this Q with pics of saddlebacks next to this bird i have very soon.
I will detail what i've found out re saddlebacks once the above happends.

This bird is close very close to saddlebacks but don't think it is the same.
Mine is like a Misty, changes color at the slightest change of lighting.


IMO No. there is s-thing else.
That something else i have a good idea/s what it is but i better wait to inspect saddlebacks closeup and sum it all up.
After that i will say what my opinion is on SBs.


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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:19 am

Look at this related young
check out the head color, rainbow :lol:

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/P2069518.JPG

I've noticed on overcast days pics come out best, no interference from sunlight
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:42 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Look at this related young
check out the head color, rainbow :lol:

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/P2069518.JPG

I've noticed on overcast days pics come out best, no interference from sunlight
Nice bird but the yellow of ht ebird in the background is more impressive. :D

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:00 am

madas wrote:Hm for my eyes the prove "saddleback" is nothing more then a Dom. pied x turq. Your thoughts?
Madas, I think most will agree that it is a dom. pied x parblue, but some will say it is not turq. I think in future there will be a push to de-classify this type of 'saddled' parblue and call it something other than turq, just like the case for indigo. So we will sit with a large variety of different morphotypes, each with a different name. In the end it will probably matter very little to most breeders, at least in SA. Here most don't know or care about indigo either.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:09 am

molossus wrote:What I do not approve of is that there are some really greedy breeders out there. they seem to think they have the copyright to the title saddleback,,,thereby making their birds exclusively saddleback and thus more valuable than anyone else with birds that have a pronounced saddle.
respectfully that is a whole lot of bulls@#t.
What the eye sees cannot be denied. if anyone breeds an outstanding parblue saddleback.,,, its their right to call it by its standard description,,,parblue or not.
the better saddled bird should command a better price. its simple and there isnt a pearl hidden in its internal organs. call it as you see and let good sense prevail.
btw,Ringo thats as good a saddleback as I have ever seen.
Well said.

Now lets wait two or three years and see if Ringo can get any parblue offspring from this bird. Pretty sure he will. So thats the last step to disprove the "saddleback" magic. :D

greetings.

madas

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:47 am

thx for the infos. Keep us updated.
molossus wrote: I am monitoring their coloring.
Hopefully with pics. ;)

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:19 am

madas wrote:thx for the infos. Keep us updated.
molossus wrote: I am monitoring their coloring.
Hopefully with pics. ;)
Madas, you are asking the wrong person. That man can not take pictures to save his life. I passed him the camera while distracting a bird as he had a better angle for the picture. What does he do? He takes pictures of the wire mesh! :twisted: :lol:

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:29 am

:lol:

At first i thought he does not want to show us the birds in detail , 4give me Molossus. :D
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:17 am

But you have copies of the pictures too... :wink:

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:16 am

madas wrote:
molossus wrote:What I do not approve of is that there are some really greedy breeders out there. they seem to think they have the copyright to the title saddleback,,,thereby making their birds exclusively saddleback and thus more valuable than anyone else with birds that have a pronounced saddle.
respectfully that is a whole lot of bulls@#t.
What the eye sees cannot be denied. if anyone breeds an outstanding parblue saddleback.,,, its their right to call it by its standard description,,,parblue or not.
the better saddled bird should command a better price. its simple and there isnt a pearl hidden in its internal organs. call it as you see and let good sense prevail.
btw,Ringo thats as good a saddleback as I have ever seen.
Well said.

Now lets wait two or three years and see if Ringo can get any parblue offspring from this bird. Pretty sure he will. So thats the last step to disprove the "saddleback" magic. :D

greetings.

madas
Ok

I used to think the same,
One can not say "My Indigo is an Emerald because it looks like it"
I always say (re emeralds): If you think you have one, You don't, becuase when you have 1 you'll know !

If it is different then we should classify it as such,
I agree that there's extremely nice Turquoise Pieds with nice saddle, however as we can see in the pic they are not the same.


My saddlebacks arrived home today have a look and we can clearly see my pied although interesting saddle it is not the same as
the Saddlebacks

Saddleback Pied left - Turquoise+ Pied right. (both from last season)
more pics higher definition to follow

Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:36 am

cant wait to see more pictures interesting Turq pied tough, but saddleback looks great

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:50 am

Thanks Ben, looking forward to the next pics. Should be interesting! :D

To be honest, it will take some convincing to change my mind on them, but I'll give it an open mind. However, I maintain that parblue expression is highly dependent on the hormone concentration present in the bird during the moult. If one bird is slightly further/better developed than another, it will show a more progressed psittacin expression; and at the 15 month moult also a richer yellow psittacin (fluorescent). And this can be for genetically identical birds, i.e. it is a factor (also) influenced environmentally (different feeding programs, aviary setups, your 'alpha chick' idea, etc.).

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:59 am

perhaps there is not as much difference as that pic portrays but clear difference for now.
I will also have to take into account the structural mutations in each bird as that would alter the phenotype slightly.
will add more pics later,
problem with my turq-pied is that it changes color dramatically in certain lighting cond. i would not be surprised if misty is playing a role there.

Johan
I will not say anything what a saddleback is or isn't , instead i'm up for suggestions, pics tests UV tests, more than anything else i hope that we'll get to the bottom of the "saddle" soon. One thing i say, i'm impressed with its phenotype (acting casual) :D

I would also like breeders with saddleback to say their opinion on my new birds.

*** 1 of my :idea: re saddlebacks: It is all in the pied, bloodline dictates saddleback phenotype.
can be seen in green pied birds. more on that later.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:17 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
madas wrote:
molossus wrote:What I do not approve of is that there are some really greedy breeders out there. they seem to think they have the copyright to the title saddleback,,,thereby making their birds exclusively saddleback and thus more valuable than anyone else with birds that have a pronounced saddle.
respectfully that is a whole lot of bulls@#t.
What the eye sees cannot be denied. if anyone breeds an outstanding parblue saddleback.,,, its their right to call it by its standard description,,,parblue or not.
the better saddled bird should command a better price. its simple and there isnt a pearl hidden in its internal organs. call it as you see and let good sense prevail.
btw,Ringo thats as good a saddleback as I have ever seen.
Well said.

Now lets wait two or three years and see if Ringo can get any parblue offspring from this bird. Pretty sure he will. So thats the last step to disprove the "saddleback" magic. :D

greetings.

madas
Ok

I used to think the same,
One can not say "My Indigo is an Emerald because it looks like it"
I always say (re emeralds): If you think you have one, You don't, becuase when you have 1 you'll know !

If it is different then we should classify it as such,
I agree that there's extremely nice Turquoise Pieds with nice saddle, however as we can see in the pic they are not the same.


My saddlebacks arrived home today have a look and we can clearly see my pied although interesting saddle it is not the same as
the Saddlebacks

Saddleback Pied left - Turquoise+ Pied right. (both from last season)
more pics higher definition to follow

Image
Hm, so you are telling us that the bird on the right is the same as in the pics some posts above???
Last edited by madas on Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:41 am

Well, this makes me go hmmm... :D

Image

But is it a 'saddleback' too... :?:

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:50 am

No that doesn't look like Saddleback.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:01 am

Johan S wrote:Well, this makes me go hmmm... :D

Image

But is it a 'saddleback' too... :?:
Not a saddleback in the meaning of the pied birds Mr. Whips or Babu are referring to. But it's the "saddle" type parblue we usually have here in Europe. :D

madas

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:59 am

madas wrote:Not a saddleback in the meaning of the pied birds Mr. Whips or Babu are referring to. But it's the "saddle" type parblue we usually have here in Europe. :D

madas
Hmmmm... Pieds... This one has psittacin in the saddle too. :D

Image

Coincidentally, here we refer to these as 'clearflights'. An(other?) example of how different morphs end up with different names. :) You all might remember this morph, the 'clearbody' or 'reverse pied' (as called by budgerigar folk) from 2012. Yet, they are all pieds.

Image

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with distinguishing names for different morphs, but I'd be furious if somebody sells me a pied morph as something different than and unique compared to adm pied, and it then turns out to be merely a different pied morph when tested with a known adm pied.


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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:55 am


Madas,

Yes that was same bird, she didn't come out too nice in that pic. will get more pics up soon.
I said after i looked again at the pic i posted "perhaps there is not as much difference as that pic portrays but clear difference for now." been very busy i just thought i throw a pic up.

Johan,

If you read my above post i said exactly same thing;i suspect the type of pieds used that gives us the saddlebacks.

i also got a blue pied hen for this sole reason: to test breed, as i will put her to a parblue to test if we're going to get saddleback phenotypes.

Previous bird is the hen
below the male, both carry violet

Image

These birds do not come from Chris or Phil.


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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:22 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
Johan,

If you read my above post i said exactly same thing;i suspect the type of pieds used that gives us the saddlebacks.

i also got a blue pied hen for this sole reason: to test breed, as i will put her to a parblue to test if we're going to get saddleback phenotypes.

Looking forward to your results, Ben. I share your thoughts on the type of pied. Although, I think we might generalise this even further, and could be looking at a series of modifier genes. If we can move away from a single gene controlling blue/parblue, then we could more easily wrap our heads around the variability in parblues. Example: Say there are modifier/minor genes that govern the expression of parblues, and even a blue bird can carry these, although completely recessive when no psittacin is produced. Then, the offspring from a parblue to this blue bird could produce a different parblue phenotype from the parblue parent when it inherits these modifier genes from the blue parent (ignore same/different chromosome and crossing over for now). So it could very well be that the dom. pied bloodline introduced a rare minor gene associated with the major gene of the blue locus. Just a thought. :)

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:33 am

Johan,

A good possibility.
The type of pieds/bloodline these birds come from match the name Clearwings. hence the belief that Baldwin had clearwings sold to Chris, i think he believed it to be so. (just my thoughts)

Chris if you reading this please feel free to jump in.

All i got to say, at the end of the day, whatever this is ... its a beaut in my books, definetly a line i'll keep.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:54 am

Madas,
Another pic of my turquoise pied. pic i have taken today.
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2089775.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2089774.jpg
if i take 5 pics of this bird moving around it'll always change phenotype as if we're looking at 5 diff. birds.
that's why i keep saying Misty, not that i want it to be. might not be genetically , it is for me :lol:
she looks nice; the yellow is rather random on the back but very pronounced, time will tell how far that will expand.
Don't forget the mother is (pic of my avatar) Homozygous Turquoise more likely a Homoallelic Parblue (covering almost completely the body)

A close up of the male
Image
&
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2089815.jpg
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:44 pm



My thoughts (not facts) on saddlebacks:

Saddlebacks start with a pied type such as the bright green & blue harlequins from this pic
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 9765188898

Then you need some sort of Parblue that affects the whole of the bird's body, but thus far records show no visual parblue bred from saddlebacks.
Why not??

Given the above info we have to revert our attention back to the green n blue birds above.
One can see an increase of a diff. stronger yellow in the green bird, normal sf green pieds are greener with softer yellow & more lacey.

PS: Johan, on my list is even the PR Modifier as a contributing factor, as well as Blue2 (recessive to B1 & wildtype), as silly as it may sound.
Where is Recio when we need him?

Thoughts?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:36 am

Could this be the Parblue we are looking for?
(related to my turquoiseblue pied)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2069473.JPG
it has a diff type green saddle, somewhat similar to what Johan was showing earlier.

& Is this the pied?
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P20089761.jpg

----
I've done the Hue 155/Sat 100 system for the male and it blew me away. never seen this result before.
Image
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:55 pm


Molossus,

Regarding your other thread on saddlebacks.
we as breeders should be concentrating in understanding the genotype of saddleback rather then worry about value.

I know a breeder has a very nice Turquoise Violet CT male , a while back another breeder offered him $10k and he refused.
Point is: nicer phenotype ultimately drives demand up, our job is to figure out genotype so we can breed more of the same.


**** I have a theory (i think i found a clue) that i'm working on in silence as i have brainstormed outloud enough :lol: (no one seems to want to help anyhow) and hope it unveils the genotype of saddleback, just need some time to work on it so i can present it with examples etc etc .

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:00 am

Ring0Neck wrote: no one seems to want to help anyhow
For sure i want to help. But we haven't these birds (dom. pieds) here in Germany. :(
So i can't. Sorry.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:52 am

Ben, I'd like to help too, but my feeling is that the saddleback is a parblue harlequin. And Chris is saying the same thing on his site. Granted, at some places he says you won't breed normal parblues=turquoise out of a saddleback (or at least they never have), and in other places he says it is a parblue, but not turquoise. He also says that the name isn't the correct one. So I don't know what I can really add after that, seeing as I agree with what he is saying. 1) It is probably a parblue phenomenon, and 2) the name is incorrect.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:18 pm

Ben

I am prepared to help you. You can use my private email for suggestions to setup a pair.

Tienie

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:41 pm

Thanks guys.
Can we eliminate Opaline for sure?

Every saddleback owner has opalines!
Ok, non were bred from saddlebacks but there might be one of the other SL mutation in saddlebacks gen. makeup? perhaps even the harlequin itself??
Anything that does not make sense is an unsolved clue

Harlequin does resemble SL mutations: edged, opaline... so it'll be no surprise if this is the case.

Tienie,
Priority i think is to pair 2 saddlebacks together (or an odd looking offspring from SB) and see what we get, 100% saddlebacks with/without pied? df?
Madas, what do you suggest?, keeping in mind the poss. chance of SL, SL dom? being involved.


Johan,
see pic below, not the best pic but the point is made
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2089821.JPG
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:34 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Can we eliminate Opaline for sure? Every saddleback owner has opalines!
Not for sure.
Ring0Neck wrote: Ok, non were bred from saddlebacks but there might be one of the other SL mutation in saddlebacks gen. makeup? perhaps even the harlequin itself??
Anything that does not make sense is an unsolved clue. Harlequin does resemble SL mutations: edged, opaline... so it'll be no surprise if this is the case.
I think we can exclude "harlequin" from sex-linked mutations because Tienie got "harlequins" of same phenotype for both sexes from a pair 1,0 non-Harlequin to 0,1 harlequin.
Ring0Neck wrote: Tienie, Priority i think is to pair 2 saddlebacks together (or an odd looking offspring from SB) and see what we get, 100% saddlebacks with/without pied? df?
Madas, what do you suggest?, keeping in mind the poss. chance of SL, SL dom? being involved.
Yeah very good idea. So if "saddleback" is a "new" parblue of a "second blue locus" then we should be able to produce a non pied "new parblue" which then could be used to test against the "normal" blue. Your thoughts Tienie?

regards
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:56 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Ok, non were bred from saddlebacks but there might be one of the other SL mutation in saddlebacks gen. makeup? perhaps even the harlequin itself??
Anything that does not make sense is an unsolved clue. Harlequin does resemble SL mutations: edged, opaline... so it'll be no surprise if this is the case.
I think we can exclude "harlequin" from sex-linked mutations because Tienie got "harlequins" of same phenotype for both sexes from a pair 1,0 non-Harlequin to 0,1 harlequin.
True, i didn't mean Harlequin to presently be SL.
my thinking was harlequin could have been made through a "bond/mistake" from sl/dom mutations therefore could still be allelic/interacting unexpectedly in some sort of way to SL mutations.... (just thinking outloud - an illogical approach). :roll:
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:03 am

madas wrote: Yeah very good idea. So if "saddleback" is a "new" parblue of a "second blue locus" then we should be able to produce a non pied "new parblue" which then could be used to test against the "normal" blue. Your thoughts Tienie?

regards
Madas, in all likelihood, if it is a new parblue, it will be from the original, first blue locus (different parblue alleles are already known to exist at the locus, so why not one more). Blue2 is also an allele of Blue1 (in budgerigar), and not a second blue locus. Is there any reason at this stage to think we are dealing with different locii rather than different alleles? I think we have had this same discussion some weeks back. :)

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Lushen1600 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:21 am

A parblue that I bred in 2013 breeding season from 2 green parents, also getting a saddleback pattern

Image

Image

Thanks
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2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:43 am

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote: Yeah very good idea. So if "saddleback" is a "new" parblue of a "second blue locus" then we should be able to produce a non pied "new parblue" which then could be used to test against the "normal" blue. Your thoughts Tienie?

regards
Madas, in all likelihood, if it is a new parblue, it will be from the original, first blue locus (different parblue alleles are already known to exist at the locus, so why not one more). Blue2 is also an allele of Blue1 (in budgerigar), and not a second blue locus. Is there any reason at this stage to think we are dealing with different locii rather than different alleles? I think we have had this same discussion some weeks back. :)
Yeah because the "saddleback" breeders are still saying they can't breed a "normal" parblue bird out of their "saddlebacks". But if this funny "mutation" is a parblue then they already should have produced such a "normal" parblue bird. That's all. :(

So no "normal" parblue and saying it's a parblue is in conflict and could only be explained by a second "new" blue locus.

If i am not wrong then you will get a (par?)blue looking bird if you combine B1 and B2 in Budgies. But for the "saddleback" IRNs this isn't the case according to the "saddleback" breeders. So somebody isn't telling the whole truth. :D
btw: they always showing nests with "harlequins" and "saddlebacks" but no normal bird. For an dom. mutation it is a little bit too dominat. ;)

regards

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:52 am

Hi Lushen,

Nice birds,

We need to ignore the name as it takes our thinking to saddle.
These birds rearranges the color in a magnificent way, pleasing to the eye.
Most Turquoise Pieds have the saddle, but these birds only have saddle for the first year then it completely covers the bird.





*** Have a look at the start of this thread, pics of my Turq-Pied although i believe it is Turquoise + the mutation we're chasing;
if so, second mutation can not be Parblue since Both mutations were passed on from mother only.

From same bloodline there's 2 type of turquoise i bred, the second type (pics below) is the mutation i think we're seeking.
All i need to do is pair it to a blue pied and offspring should be saddlebacks and no Turquoise & i would not be surprised to see violet
Pics of same bird, taken with camera in two modes, auto and some other it reveals its features a bit better
I can say that this bird is completely covered smoothly by the SF Parblue? and has a saddle and emerald like appearance.

its mother based on last 2012 breeding results and violet parents was assumed DF Violet
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2069476.JPG
btw: they always showing nests with "harlequins" and "saddlebacks" but no normal bird. For an dom. mutation it is a little bit too dominat.
Madas :lol:
If 1 Parblue is visual only in Blue2/Blue2 and the other say in Blue2/Blue1 as well as B1/B1 perhaps it would make sense why no parblues were bred since pairing to B1 the B2/B2 would be receessive to all offspring.
BUT visual in Harlequins - WHY? Because a Harleq. would be at Blue2/Blue2? therefore the other parblue would be visual.


not even sure it makes sense... brainstorming :|
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:37 am

Ring0Neck wrote: BUT visual in Harlequins - WHY? Because a Harleq. would be at Blue2/Blue2? therefore the other parblue would be visual.


not even sure it makes sense... brainstorming :|
Could be true. That's why i said your idea to pair two "saddleback" together makes sence in my eyes. :)

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:55 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Most Turquoise Pieds have the saddle, but these birds only have saddle for the first year then it completely covers the bird.
Ben, isn't this also true for mature saddlebacks? I thought the saddle is lost at maturity. At least, it looks that way from the pictures. So in that regard it doesn't appear as if they differ from mature turquoise harlequin. Or do they and I'm missing something? Could this be a juvenile type mutation, lost at maturity?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:01 am

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Most Turquoise Pieds have the saddle, but these birds only have saddle for the first year then it completely covers the bird.
Ben, isn't this also true for mature saddlebacks? I thought the saddle is lost at maturity. At least, it looks that way from the pictures. So in that regard it doesn't appear as if they differ from mature turquoise harlequin. Or do they and I'm missing something? Could this be a juvenile type mutation, lost at maturity?
Yeah this is my observation too. And to add some more: For non-structual "saddlebacks" the saddle is more green looking. But if you add violet for example it turns into a more yellow one.

Edit: from my observations of available pics in the www.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:30 am

But if you add violet for example it turns into a more yellow one.
Sounds exciting: if Violet in "B2" is yellow i'm thinking: Red IRN; in hope that the B1 limitations are not there anymore :D



Sidenote:
I keep saying to everyone: I'm hopefull that White n Yellow birds gives us a new pallett of colors to work with & a new background canvas, yet we are still scared as it resembles the INO.
Time will tell.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:15 am

this pic i just found taken 6 days ago captured s-thing rather interesting.
same bird as in previous post
i guess because of this color changing layer i consider these birds being Misty_rious

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2069482.JPG
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:34 am

Have a good look at this bird and tell us what you think it is

Your opinion is appreciated !



Do you see Harlequin or Harlequin-Opaline?
(PS not a clearwing)

Image




I am currently stuck on opaline-harlequin combo (and its variable phenotype), the deeper i dig, the more confusing it becomes :cry:
Could Harlequin be SL Dom.?
or perhaps we have 2 types, one being SL D. and the other Dominant.
We all can certainly see 2 types of Harlequins floating about and easily distinguishable from one another.
I have both types now and will watch hen's results if they breed hens also.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:29 pm

Ben, that bird shows a rather wide red region in the neck ring. I can be convinced that it carries opaline. It would be something though, considering that opaline cocks are actually rather challenging to breed and even /opaline x opaline produces only 1/4. And that's your best chance and possible pairing without having an opaline cock. But, it can happen. Your other thought on dom edge vs SL dom edge. Not that far fetched at all. Both kinds exist in different species, so it is possible. Being the same as harlequin... That will surprise me a lot. I bet in the next 5 - 10 years we will have at least 5 very distinct harlequin morphotypes resulting from selective breeding programs.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:46 pm

Ben & Johan

Imo it is a harlequin opaline. Must admit it is a beautiful bird.

Tienie

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:41 pm



Thank you both.

it is not my bird, i wish :) , however i have a 2y o son violet green/o? from him i paired to a deep blue hen & i expect to see opaline deep hens end of season .

The bird in the pic is a proven breeder of opalines and the breeder tells me it is H /opaline!

I was/still am pretty sure it is the H & O combo

Now, there's only 2 things to consider:
1. It is an allelic H&O combo as it would be say PallidINO
this way breeding opalines from him would simulate like a split Opaline breeding results.
in this case making the Harlequin : Heterosomal Dom.? in inheritance!? (or we have 2 sl & 1 dom. mutations in this bird)

2. It is H/O however Opaline is visibly identifiable. which would redirect us back to point 1 or similar.

Thoughts?



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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:58 am

Ring0Neck wrote:

Thank you both.

it is not my bird, i wish :) , however i have a 2y o son violet green/o? from him i paired to a deep blue hen & i expect to see opaline deep hens end of season .

The bird in the pic is a proven breeder of opalines and the breeder tells me it is H /opaline!

I was/still am pretty sure it is the H & O combo

Now, there's only 2 things to consider:
1. It is an allelic H&O combo as it would be say PallidINO
this way breeding opalines from him would simulate like a split Opaline breeding results.
in this case making the Harlequin : Heterosomal Dom.? in inheritance!? (or we have 2 sl & 1 dom. mutations in this bird)

2. It is H/O however Opaline is visibly identifiable. which would redirect us back to point 1 or similar.

Thoughts?



Hi Ben,

i can't see a Harlequin Opaline combo in this pic. First it's very hard to find an opaline male showing such a "red" neckring. Personally i only know 2 or 3. Second if an opaline male is showing a "red" neckring then it should be much more wider and fading from red to green towards the tail. The "gradient" then is at least 3cm wide. Third the whole body color is to light for a dom. pied opaline combo. So i would go with the breeder: dom. pied /opaline.

bird of SB:

Image

bird of LB:

Image

madas

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:50 am

Madas, that specific greygreen opaline cock is the only one I've seen with such a large extended red region in the neck ring. Do you know of others/have pictures? I just about given up on finding more, and have considered that it is the combined effect of both grey and opaline in green series. Would love to see a normal green opaline with the same extended neck ring.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:43 am

Johan S wrote:Madas, that specific greygreen opaline cock is the only one I've seen with such a large extended red region in the neck ring. Do you know of others/have pictures? I just about given up on finding more, and have considered that it is the combined effect of both grey and opaline in green series. Would love to see a normal green opaline with the same extended neck ring.
I thought i have posted two pics. :D
The green one is showing the same nice red gradient on the neck but in a very bright form. ;)

madas

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:11 am




Looking from Stefan's perspective, it seems to fit the profile of a pied without opaline see below:

This afternoon i took some pics (not the best :cry: The sun was in my eyes :lol: )

Green Pied (same bird approx. 7 y old) - Blue Pied - DF Pied - first 2 mature
Image
a clearer pic
Image

Below an Opaline Pied mature hen.

Image

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:15 pm

Ben, Johan and Stefan

If you compare the tail of the opaline harlequin hen with a harlequin or opaline you will see that it is darker then both opaline and harlequin. Why ?

Must admit some Ozy breeders say it isn't worth producing the combo but for my eyes it is beautiful.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:32 pm



My suspicion is that not all pied-opaline phenotypes will be the same.

since the pieds have a variety of phenotypes it will no doubt alter how an opaline-pied combo will look like depending on type of pied used.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:18 pm

Carr.birds wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: Below an Opaline Pied mature hen.

Image
If you compare the tail of the opaline harlequin hen with a harlequin or opaline you will see that it is darker then both opaline and harlequin. Why ?
The opaline harlequin in Bens pic looks like a violetgreen so not a surprise that the tail is darker. ;)

Regarding the dom. pied types: i have noticed at least two types. Both show a nice pied pattern as youngsters but then fully matured only one of them is still showing it. The other has a dilute body color without pied markings. Only sign of pied are yellow resp. white main flights and tail (i think they are called clearflights). With the "clearflight" type you won't be able to breed "saddlebacks" but with the other you are.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:34 pm

madas wrote: Regarding the dom. pied types: i have noticed at least two types. Both show a nice pied pattern as youngsters but then fully matured only one of them is still showing it. The other has a dilute body color without pied markings. Only sign of pied are yellow resp. white main flights and tail (i think they are called clearflights). With the "clearflight" type you won't be able to breed "saddlebacks" but with the other you are.

madas
I thought about this, any i suspected the opposite of your conclusion but i think it does not matter at all and both types will produce
saddlebacks, one will have more scallopping than the other.

The not so nice ones (clearflight looking) are amongst the first pieds bred by Jack Smith here in OZ & the nicer 1s most likely bred through other minor modifiers added through breeding.

I have as an Outsider the Deep as the cause of saddlebacks, but not enough evidence thus far.
the effect of emerald like, smooth colors must be coming from a third mutation that affects the whole body of the bird

Here is what i mean (the effect Deep has on emerald in this instance)
pic below:
Deep Violet EmeraldBlue V Cobalt Violet EmeraldBlue
something to think about...

Image
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:00 am

Carr.birds wrote:Ben, Johan and Stefan

If you compare the tail of the opaline harlequin hen with a harlequin or opaline you will see that it is darker then both opaline and harlequin. Why ?

Must admit some Ozy breeders say it isn't worth producing the combo but for my eyes it is beautiful.

Tienie
Excellent question, Tienie. It seems counter intuitive that two diluting actions working together could produce a darker region than any of the individual actions. But I suppose this is synergy and exactly what Aristotle was on about. Just like with the dilute and SL dom. edged. mutation.
Ring0Neck wrote:

My suspicion is that not all pied-opaline phenotypes will be the same.

since the pieds have a variety of phenotypes it will no doubt alter how an opaline-pied combo will look like depending on type of pied used.
Ben, I agree. I think the same will happen with the adm rec pieds combined with opaline. Here in SA I haven't seen a lot of breeders being selective with their adm pieds, with most simply trying to be the first to produce the combination.

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Re: The things that make you go SLD mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:15 am


Regarding the Edged.

* The inheritance mode of Edged, has it been proven beyond doubt?
Has the breeding tests been performed by more than 1 breeder and non-related stock?



Ignoring what we know regarding Edge, here is a possible model inheritance formula for the Edged.
Everything is very relevant and connected in the bigger picture.

Edged is a dominant mutation but It is allelic to SL Rec mutations, 2 of them being Opaline & Cinnamon.


A Cinnamon-Edged gives us the SL D Edged as we know it.
* When i got my first Edged birds from a breeder that has been breeding them for many years he said:
"I was the one that proved that you can not split the cinnamon from edged"
I said/thought at the time, because of his pairings setup, very few birds will be edged only.
he had edged/cin x cin edged hens or edged cinn x edged cinn.

Remember PallidINO?
My method to test if a male is /INO i put him to Pallid hen, breeding results could be considered SL D as no splits will be bred.

You know where i'm going with this... but i'll stop here.

Thoughts?


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Re: The things that make you go SLD mutation

Post by madas » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:12 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Edged is a dominant mutation but It is allelic to SL Rec mutations, 2 of them being Opaline & Cinnamon.
Edged isn't allelic (allelic = allele of same locus???) to them but it is linked with them on the sex chromosomes.
Ring0Neck wrote: I was the one that proved that you can not split the cinnamon from edged
Sounds like he stucked with the extrem low crossover rate between both mutations. :D

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:51 am

Thanks Madas,

Allelic is the wrong word in this instance for what i was trying to portait.
linked with them on the sex chromosomes - Yes.

One thing is to work out the how and another to translate it in genetical terms. I enjoy the first part :D

Tienie,
Would you have an updated pic of the Edged-Opaline you could post for us?
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:30 am

Actually,

I was right in using allelic for what i want to speculate.

Here is another instance:

Edged-Opaline hen x wildtype
Breeding result i want to achieve from pair above to be the same as TurquoiseBlue to a wildtype

1,0 green x 0,1 turquoiseBlue

50% green /blue
50% green /turquoise

Replace Blue with Edged & Turquoise with Opaline = in this instance one can not get guaranteed split opaline in males.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:50 am

Ben, if that were true, the heterozygous edged heterozygous opaline cock would breed either edged or opaline hens. This is not the case from our breeding results with such a cock. We have produced edged, opaline and edged-opaline hens that I recall. Of course, being allelic, one wouldn't be able to produce a normal or edged-opaline hen. Being at different locii, even if linked, it would be possible. Tienie's edged-opaline hen was bred from a similar cock, so it further supports the premise of being linked rather than allelic.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:43 am

Thanks Johan,
Tienie's edged-opaline hen was bred from a similar cock, so it further supports the premise of being linked rather than allelic.


and Opaline mother?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... mother.jpg
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:40 pm

Ben

It started like this:

df edged blue & grey opaline/dilute

results for 2 years (2008 & 2009)
4,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute?
1,0 sf edged blue/opaline/dilute?
0,4 edged grey/dilute?
0,1 edged blue/dilute?

from this I paired

(A) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute? & green opaline/turq

results in 2012(not taken poss split dilute into account)
1,0 sf edged greygreen/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged green/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged turqblue/opaline
0,1 edged greygreen/blue
0,1 edged-opaline green/blue

(B) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute & turqblue chf (setup at a friend)

results in 2011
1,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 opaline grey/chf/dilute
2012
2,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 edged-opaline blue/chf/dilute?
0,1 edged turqblue/chf/dilute?

2013
brother and sister from 2011 paired
1,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute/opaline & opaline grey/chf/dilute

resluts
0,0,1 edged-opaline grey dilute(not sure will send pic)
will get rest of results

(C) 1,0 sf edged blue/opaline/dilute? & opaline blue dilute

results in 2013
0,0,2 edged-opaline blue/dilute (from their behaviour I believe it to be cocks)

The father 1,0 sf edged blue/opaline/dilute? was paired to a second hen in 2013 (cinnamon blue)

results
0,0,2 blue
0,0,1 cinnamon blue
0,1 edged-opaline blue

This also then indicate that he must be 1,0 sf edged/opaline/cinnamon/dilute? if all 4 babies are his. I moved the hen from a cinnamon blue cock because it didn't look like they were compatable. She laid her 1st egg within 3 days after moving her to the sf edged blue/opaline/dilute? cock. Can any one tell me who is the father of the babies? The cinnamon blue was the first egg to hatch.

Johan can also add his results

Tienie
Last edited by Carr.birds on Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:17 pm



Tienie,

Thanks heaps for that info.

There's a lot of edged from an Sf in these results but indeed possible.
(A) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute? & green opaline/turq

results in 2012(not taken poss split dilute into account)
1,0 sf edged greygreen/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged green/blue/opaline
1,0 sf edged turqblue/opaline
0,1 edged greygreen/blue
0,1 edged-opaline green/blue

(B) 1,0 sf edged grey/opaline/dilute & turqblue chf (setup at a friend)

results in 2011
1,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 opaline grey/chf/dilute
2012
2,0 sf edged blue/chf/dilute?/opaline?
0,1 edged-opaline blue/chf/dilute?
0,1 edged turqblue/chf/dilute?


calculator expected results from this pair indicates:

1,0 Edged(EF) Edged Grey blue /opaline x 0,1 opaline green /turquoise

1,0 6.25% green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged Grey green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Edged(EF) Edged Grey turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 6.25% Grey green /opaline /blue
1,0 6.25% Grey turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 6.25% opaline turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged Grey green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Edged(EF) Edged Grey turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% opaline green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Grey green /blue
1,0 6.25% opaline Grey turquoiseBlue
1,0 6.25% turquoiseBlue /opaline

0,1 6.25% green /blue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged green /blue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% Edged Edged Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Edged Edged Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% opaline green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Grey green /blue
0,1 6.25% opaline Grey turquoiseBlue
0,1 6.25% turquoiseBlue

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Carr.birds » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:26 pm

Ben

Yes it was strange to me. I am pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that the original cock was a df edged blue but don't know how to explain it genetically.

Tienie

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:24 am

It would make sense it if the hen grey opaline/dilute was also carrying edged
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:37 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Thanks Johan,
Tienie's edged-opaline hen was bred from a similar cock, so it further supports the premise of being linked rather than allelic.


and Opaline mother?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... mother.jpg
Ben, I don't think there is any question about opaline being sex-linked. Thus, the opaline mother is not relevant to the discussion of daughters, as only sons will inherit the gene. One can actually trace the exact progress of which opaline gene is going where by realising this. It is, surprisingly, much more fun than it sounds. :D

As for the results, my dad has produced from his grey edged / opaline (from Tienie) x turqblue opaline (all edged are SF):
1-0 grey turqblue edged-opaline
1-0 grey turqblue edged/opaline
1-0 blue edged/opaline
1-0 blue opaline
0-1 grey turqblue edged-opaline
0-1 grey turqblue edged
0-1 grey opaline
0-1 grey edged

Turquoise and opaline have behaved splendidly according to theoretical expectations. Grey and edge seems to have misunderstood the concept of 'dominant', with 75% in both cases to the expected 50%. Almost all of these birds were sold, so pictures aren't available unfortunately.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:57 am

, I don't think there is any question about opaline being sex-linked. Thus, the opaline mother is not relevant to the discussion of daughters, as only sons will inherit the gene.


Sure thing Johan.

I know the rules, rules don't stop me looking about when s-thing doesn't quiet match the expected, besides a mutation can be assigned a wrong inheritance model and unless we look closely we'll never know we used wrong model of inheritance.
as they say close enough is not good enough. :D

I was looking at interaction relationship of Opaline and other SL~SL D or other type mutation/s like edged that might be allelic or linked that could alter results when paired together.

Edged throws a few surprises in phenotype when combined with certain mutations IMO, although i have limited experience with breeding them i'm keen to get a close look at them and watch the breeding results more closely.

I also suspect the possibility of a mutated variant Edged here in OZ, perhaps ...


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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:18 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
, I don't think there is any question about opaline being sex-linked. Thus, the opaline mother is not relevant to the discussion of daughters, as only sons will inherit the gene.


Sure thing Johan.

I know the rules, rules don't stop me looking about when s-thing doesn't quiet match the expected, besides a mutation can be assigned a wrong inheritance model and unless we look closely we'll never know we used wrong model of inheritance.
as they say close enough is not good enough. :D
I hear you. Like for example the grey mutation. I always get the feeling that more grey offspring is produced than the predicted 50/50. And I've seen darker greys than others (possible DF?).

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:49 am

now this makes me go hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Breeder Willie Mc Geer
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:54 am

Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:now this makes me go hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Breeder Willie Mc Geer
stress lines?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:00 am

No still unkown..but bred out of Grizzle female

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:27 am

Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:No still unkown..but bred out of Grizzle female
Any pic of the mother. :)

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Anthony anth Mc Geer » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:38 am

Hahaha nooo can't get a pic of her.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:14 pm

Ring0Neck wrote: I also suspect the possibility of a mutated variant Edged here in OZ, perhaps ...

I have been thinking about this, and I suspect you maybe right-- I have since visited the nest brother of my young edged cock- he is just as light/same shade of colour as his brother. I will try and get pics next time I'm there to show there isn't much difference between them.

It has made me wonder if Cinnamon is/was ever- involved at all. 3 in the nest- 2 edged 1 normal. the two edged cocks are phenotypically Cinnamon looking- the normal is just a 'normal' Green hen.

What are the odds of a split Cinn cock (paired of-course to a Cinn) producing 2 Cinn cocks and a normal hen? Being a logical kind of person id expect a combination... or maybe I was just lucky?

hopefully I'll get the answers this breeding season when I pair the /?Cinnamon cock to a Cinnamon without edged.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:08 am

Shey, another thing to consider is that the ruby eye of the cinnamon tends to darken. I bet a few/lot? of breeders have been sitting with edged hens and thought they were cinnamon, and vice versa.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:12 am

yes- but in an edged bird, (if it's there) the Cinnamon eyes are gone- Does anyone know if they do actually hatch any shade of red? - neither of my SL Edged cocks were and none light up red with a flash (which is what one should expect I think even if they were to be also visual Cinn.

That's why this up and coming season is important- I should be able to find out if the Wildtype sire (of my two edged cocks) is split Cinn fairly easily.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:41 am

This should make you go Hmmmmmmm :shock:

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/Aaron.jpg (7Mb file)

??back to the
Image
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:26 am

Ben, maybe if you share the story / background that probably came along with that pic the rest of us will be able to follow too... :D

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:38 am

:lol:

I was hoping you'd pick it up by the file name.

we're looking at green violet CT /emerald
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by madas » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:53 am

Ring0Neck wrote::lol:

I was hoping you'd pick it up by the file name.

we're looking at green violet CT /emerald
Because of???? I can't see any green series bird in this pic. :(

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:57 am

That's the reason for my second picture ;)

I just emailed Aaron to confirm again that the bird in the pic is what i said.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:21 am

Ring0Neck wrote::lol:

I was hoping you'd pick it up by the file name.

we're looking at green violet CT /emerald
I noticed the filename, but thought this must have been a different family of birds. Where's the green one, though? :?: If that bird paired to a violet blue/CT gave green offspring as first reported, we're going to need a bigger drawing board. :shock:

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:31 am


I asked Aaron to send me an updated pic of the /emerald because he said he got a new camera.
This is what i got. :?


EDIT: I just remembered that the /emerald was not a visual CT but a /CT. old age i guess.
Being in an identical cage i assumed ... ( i hate assumptions esp. when other do it) :lol: slightly more forgiving with myself :?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:04 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:EDIT: I just remembered that the /emerald was not a visual CT but a /CT. old age i guess.
Being in an identical cage i assumed ... ( i hate assumptions esp. when other do it) :lol: slightly more forgiving with myself :?
Uhm... Yeah... In viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18238 you posted
Ring0Neck wrote:Pair:
Green CT/emerald X violet blue/CT

Offspring:
Violet Emerald/ct
Green/blue/ct
Now I'm confused. Please feel free to straighten me out. :D

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Johan S » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:28 pm

Johan S wrote:Shey, another thing to consider is that the ruby eye of the cinnamon tends to darken. I bet a few/lot? of breeders have been sitting with edged hens and thought they were cinnamon, and vice versa.
I don't particularly like quoting myself...

@Shey, consider again the point above, but I suppose we don't have to limit it to hens. Now have a look at this bird that was recently advertised on an Oz FB page as a cobalt cinnamon cock.

Image

Thoughts?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:52 pm

yes- I spotted him right away- he now belongs to my friend Nigel :mrgreen:

prob lies with Oz not being up to speed with the rest of the world- they simply don't know what they are- if it's lighter then it's Cinnamon no questions asked :roll:


I will ask if I can upload some wing shots-- he is beautiful!


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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:35 pm


Johan,

The correct pairing i posted here, i was passing on info from phonecalls as best as i remembered
I acquired the green violet/ct offspring hen just to do a third test , as it should be split Blue if Emerald is Parblue.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18512&p=110624#p109191
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by prodigy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:52 am

madas wrote:
Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:now this makes me go hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Breeder Willie Mc Geer
stress lines?
definitely stress lines will molt out, post pic's after 18 month molt

.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:39 pm

Here's my avatar bird pic taken with sun behind me (mother of pied below)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/ava.JPG


Zoom into the pied's tail, you'll notice main tail feather shaft is black second feather shaft is not


http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3090596.JPG


interesting reading below:
"As the feather develops, cells in specific regions die, allowing the feather to split open like the pages of a book."
quote from: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... 745293.htm
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:37 pm

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:35 am

Could Violet show in a Grey masking violet pied?


Here's a pic (on the shoulder n tail).

http://parakeet.me/irn/P3090644.JPG

http://parakeet.me/irn/P3090642.JPG
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:09 pm

Ben- can you see with your eye the violet colouring- or is it something the camera picks up on?

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:53 pm


I see it with naked eye but again not 100% certain as i can not get close enough to him.
I will need to move him to another cage after the rains so i will have a good look at it.

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by sheyd » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:05 pm

Thanks, that's very interesting-- will be looking forward to updates :D

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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:42 pm

I'm looking at the violet turq. pied hen and i can barely see any violet in her whereas the violet turq. pied male has heaps of visual violet.
they are all unrelated.
Violet should increase after the 1 y moult esp. in tails.
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Re: The things that make you go hmmm

Post by Mad Max » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:13 am

Ringo

I understand what you are saying as I have 2 youngsters that I managed to get my hands on that were bred from a Violet Blue X Edged Grey/Dilute
The 2 youngsters I have are grey in colour , 1 is edged and the other one looks like a normal grey bird .
When I have them in the sun I can see an almost cobalt sheen over the birds with some specks on the feathers that look violet (They are very small ) But I can see the violet blue comming through . I know what a cobalt grey and a mauve grey look like as I have them in my cages .

This looks compleatly different , The flights and tail feathers are very dark ,very close to black .
I am waiting for them to mature and then will re-evaluate the feather condition

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Post by Dark horse » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:46 am

Hi guys I am very new to this page and I need your advice and valuable ideas. Thanks

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Post by Dark horse » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:56 am

I wanted to buy my first pair of ring neck. I haven't got
Any idea about those colours.

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