Fusi - new sexlinked incomplete dominant mutation???

Youngspud · Post by **Youngspud** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:50 am

The DF in both green and grey-green look great, not a big fan of the blue though, very interesting to see what further results will prove.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:14 am

...The only logical answer could be "crossing-over" between SL Edged and cinnamon with a very low cross-over rate. So the foundation bird must carry a bundle of already "crossed-over" gens for cinnamon and SL Edged and as a result of the very low cross-over rate both mutations are passed on to the offspring as bundle as well....

I'm of the same opinion as your above statement.

Some thoughts
* D. SL Edged + a sex-linked mutation crossed-over:
Edged will overwrite the other SL mutation and suppress its expresivity to a high extent 80%+ therefore the known IDing signs we look for say in cinnamon: brown flights, pinkish feet, light nails, dark red eyes, will not be visible to enable us to ID cinnamon.

Have a look at Tiennie's opaline edged hen, opaline head & black flights are almost invisible
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... mother.jpg

Tiennie do you have an updated pic of the edged opaline hen?

SL Edged birds here in OZ are of the same phenotype as you have pictured esp. the blue series as i have not seen many green series in combos. we know here a large % of edged are tangled with cinnamon.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgez.jpg

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:37 am

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:27 am

I only had 1 pair of edged & cinnamon combo that i bred last season
It had 5 young which i sold out of nest before feathering. All i can tell is that 1 chick had light colored nails 4 normal, parents were turq. edged/cinn X turq. grey cinn. edged hen.
Cinnamon is not popular in OZ!... is un understatement. Beats me, such a great mutation.

Thought:
pairing an edged (cinnamon or split cinn.) male to a cinnamon sf violet blue hen
in hope that it would be easier to ID a male edged cinnamon violet blue

Tiennie, Johan
Do any of you have an edged cinnamon violet blue male?
Surely there is enough cinnamon left to change the color towards lavender.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:02 am

Just the other day i was thinking/brainstorming...
what if SL mutations "crossed-over" (all or just some? or when?random mistake?) will only breed the 2 mutation combo not the individual singled out.
I was thinking of how our Harlequin came about

- permanent bond of Opaline + Misty + Edged?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:02 am

Hi Madas, thanks for the very impressive photo collection. My opinion is very different to what has been proposed, although I agree that the cinnamon edged crossing over could be very rare (I don't think 30% as you mentioned, that sounds more like opaline edged, which we found occurred fairly easily). I think we are looking at a large degree of variability. Take other mutations that show something similar: turquoise (later classified as different parblue alleles like turquoise and indigo), violet (there is a very distinct difference in SF phenotype between some violets, yet combined with cobalt produces very similar cobalt violets), misty (the almost grey bodied version compared to a very light misty phenotype), recessive adm pieds ranging from poorly marked to almost clear birds, opaline (some opalines show better head/body contrast, some don't show the white wing stripe that well, and some don't show the opaque effect on the wing coverts that well) and of course SL dom. edged. I have seen here in SA well marked edged birds (Tienie has some excellent examples) and some males that are so poorly marked that one has a hard time distinguishing them from normal birds (yet their female offspring are very clearly edged and well diluted).

So is it a new mutation? Is it a crossing over? Is it variation possible from selective breeding? I don't know the answer. One possible thing worth investigating is the allelic interaction of fusi and dom. edged, i.e. taking a guaranteed DF fusi male and pairing it to a guaranteed SL dom. edged female. The FusiEdged male offspring can be paired to a normal hen to check for female offspring. But I think we will end up with 50% fusi and 50% edged hens (and no normals), so that will still not answer if we are dealing with a different allele of edged, or the cinnamon-edged crossing over, or plain variation.

Madas, send my regards to AM.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:47 pm

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:44 pm

Stefan

Imo it is the same as the SL Edged mutation, maybe misty and/or cinnamon and/or opaline added. I have seen a huge difference in SL Edged males but not in females. Some cocks are well marked and others not (almost as dark as a normal). I must admit the darker head males posted by Stefan are pretty. Will only be able to take pics this weekend and post it.

Ben I own a SL Edged-cinnamon violet blue (can be violet cobalt) but not a male. Will be able to setup a pair to produce a male for next season.

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:40 pm

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:54 am

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:37 am

Stefan

Crossover rate of SL Edged and Cinnamon is a lot higher I would say 25%.

That's the hen. I paired her father a Cobalt SL Edged-cinnamon to a cinnamon-ino/blue hen last season. Unfortunately the pair only produced 1 baby, a cinnamon - will have it sexed on Friday. If the crossover rate is as low as 2% SL Edged-cinnamon males would have been very rare (scares) and it isn't the case.

Tienie

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:45 am

Tienie,

Have you had many cinnamon only hens bred from sl edged-cinnamon male x normal hen?

It should be 50%.

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:30 am

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:28 am

It should be 50%.

I personally don't think it is as high, on the contrary, if the birds in this thread are in fact edged & cinnamon combos then it'll prove very low.

General knowledge is 50%

Also, I'm wondering if pairing a cinn-edged x normal V cinn-edged x cinnamon
would the hens offspring %s be the same?
We know the answer to this question, but... is it really so?
what if we find high % when both carry it and very low when only male does?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:51 am

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Tienie,

Have you had many cinnamon only hens bred from sl edged-cinnamon male x normal hen?

It should be 50%.
So why shout it be 50%? if true then the distance between both on the sex chromosom must be very high. SL Edged on the one end and cinnamon on the other.
The following crossover rates are known: cinnamon - ino - opalin = 3% - 30%. From Tienies pairings Opalin x Edged we know that its crossover rate is around 30% or higher. So edged can't be on the right side of opalin because then we had a crossover rate between cinnamon and edged of 63%. But only 50% is possible. So it must be on the left side of opaline. So 33% - 30% (perhaps 35%) = 3% (or -2%). So a crossover rate of 3% or 2% between Sl Edged and Cinnamon.

Your thoughts???

madas

Ben, you ask an interesting question, one to which no breeder have ever given me a sure answer.

Madas, two things I don't agree with (and underlined)

1) You are basing the number of 30+% on a single nest of chicks (if I recall 4). That's not a relevant statistic (yet). We need more chicks.
2) It seems as if you are stating that the offspring ratio (OR) and the crossing over rate (P) is the same thing, but that isn't always the case. This assumption is only true for very closely linked genes. You should keep in mind that it isn't only possible for a single crossing over to occur, but for multiple crossing overs to occur during meiosis. The likelihood of this for closely linked genes are extremely small (that's when your assumption of OR = P is true; in the region of 0 - 10%), but multiple crossing over is much more likely for genes far apart. Say we have a first crossing over far to the left of opaline, and then a second one also to the left of opaline. Then the effect is the same as no crossing over at all. Keep in mind, this is not unlikely for genes far apart... This means that the probability of a second crossing over reduces the offspring ratio (the number of crossed over offspring, since it is now canceled by the second crossing over), yet a third crossing over will increase it again, a fourth will reduce it, and so forth. Thus, OR = P - P^2 + P^3 - P^4 ... +- P^n, or OR = P/(1+P). Therefore, for genes far apart (like edge and opaline if we go on the assumption of 30+%), we can not neglect the probabilities of second, third, fourth, etc. crossing overs. It also means that the real crossing over rate is always more than the offspring ratio. So P can be 0 - 100%, and OR can be 0 - 50%.

Thoughts?

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:27 am

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:31 am

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:41 am

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Stefan, Ben and Johan

Ben you misunderstood my point. A new pair (Dark blue SL Edged-cinnamon & cinnamon-ino/blue) in 2013 only gave me 1 baby nl a cinnamon/blue (not SL Edged-cinnamon). According to my knowlege all the babies must be cinnamon or edged-cinnamon, cock will all be split ino (didn't take dark and blue into account).

The reason why I metioned SL Edged-cinnamon males must be scares is that to produce a cock you will need at least a SL Edged/cinnamon cock & cinnamon or SL Edged-cinnamon hen. Most breeders in SA don't prefer cinnamon, luckely I am not one of them. It is a beautiful mutation and can be combined with other mutations to create strange phenotypes. Can any one post a pic of a NSlino cinnamon?

For next season I will setup new pairs of Cinnamon & SL Edged, SL Edged/cinnamon & Cinnamon, SL Edged-cinnamon & Cinnamon, Cinnamon & SL Edged-cinnamon to assist determining the crossover rate. Any suggestions are welcome.

Tienie

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:50 pm

Stefan

In 2012 a Blue adm pied/cinnamon & SL Edged-cinnamon/blue/pied gave me 1-1 blue/pied, 0-1 blue cinnamon/pied and 1-0 SL Edged-cinnamon/blue/pied. I can test this SL Edged-cinnamon/blue/pied cock with a cinnamon or SL Edged-cinnamon pied to make sure he is SL Edged-cinnamon.

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:37 pm

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:23 am

Stefan

I will make a list of all the breeding and 2yr old SL Edged birds for advice to pair in 2014

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:24 am

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:47 am

Stefan

Breeding and 2yr SL Edged birds

Cocks

df
Blue SL Edged, Dblue SL Edged/chf, Greygreen SL Edged/blue

Sf
Dblue SL Edged/chf, Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon, Green SL Edged/adm pied/turq, Blueturq SL Edged adm pied, Deep blue SL Edged, Green SL Edged/dilute/cinnamon/blue, Dblue Dilute SL Edged/opaline/, Blueturq SL Edged/opaline, Green SL Edged-cinnamon/adm pied/blue, Deep blue SL Edged Clearheaded Fallow, Blue SL Edged/chf/opaline?, Blue SL Edged/dilute, Violet deep blue SL Edged, Dgreen SL Edged cleartail/blue

Hens
Violet dblue SL Edged-cinnamon, Dblue SL Edged/dilute, Blue SL Edged/cleartail, Blue SL Edged, Darkdeep blue SL Edged, Green SL Edged-cinnamon adm pied, Green SL Edged-opaline/blue, Blue SL Edged-opaline/chf, Green SL Edged-cinnamon/adm pied/blue, Turq SL Edged, Blueturq SL Edged/chf

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:50 am

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:57 am

madas wrote:Sf
Dblue SL Edged/chf, Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon, Green SL Edged/adm pied/turq, Blueturq SL Edged adm pied, Deep blue SL Edged, Green SL Edged/dilute/cinnamon/blue, Dblue Dilute SL Edged/opaline/, Blueturq SL Edged/opaline, Green SL Edged-cinnamon/adm pied/blue, Deep blue SL Edged Clearheaded Fallow, Blue SL Edged/chf/opaline?, Blue SL Edged/dilute, Violet deep blue SL Edged, Dgreen SL Edged cleartail/blue

So there is only one male which is helpfull regarding the crossover rate check: Green SL Edged/dilute/cinnamon/blue[/quote]

Madas, I think Tienie can use more than just the one bird. The males already crossed over will uncross too and it is observable in their female offspring. And the probabilities are the same. Further to that, with enough numbers, the edge opaline offspring ratio can also be used to pin point the edged location even further. Like you mentioned in an earlier post, I also think that it will be close to cinnamon and ino/pallid.

Tienie, have you ever bred a normal cinnamon hen from a SL edged-cinnamon (linked) cock bird? If yes, often, or rarely?

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:07 am

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:49 am

Johan

Yes, in 2012 the Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon cock paired to a blue hen gave me 0,1 blue cinnamon, 1,0 Dblue SL Edged/cinnamon and 0,2 Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon. In 2013 as mentioned when paired to a Cinnamon-ino/blue hen only gave me 0,0,1 Cinnamon (to be sexed tomorrow).

Tienie

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:56 am

Stefan

I own 0,1 Dblue dilute opaline, 0,1 Blue dilute opaline, 0,1 Cinnamon/dilute and 0,1 dilute/blue

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:24 am

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:30 am

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:51 pm

Gentlemen, you are right. I read edged-cinnamon as a crossed over group of genes from a single parent, genetically equivalent to edged/cinnamon (heterozygous edged and cinnamon). Bad Johan!

With the correction pointed out, I should rephrase my question to Tienie (and everyone else). Is there anybody that have bred cinnamon only hens from an SF SL edged / cinnamon (linked / type 1) male?

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:35 pm

Stefan

Yes

Blueturq Dilute SL Edged & Greygreen Cinnamon/blue

for this reason he can be Green SL Edged(sf)/cinnamon/dilute/(blue or turq)

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:22 pm

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:04 pm

Stefan

Sorry I made a mistake the pair was Blueturq Dilute SL Edged & Greygreen Cinnamon/blue/dilute. The baby will still be Green SL Edged/cinnamon/dilute/(blue or turq), but I have another cock from this pair, also matured now. He is a Greyturq Dilute SL Edged/cinnamon. I have a sister to their mother she is a Grey Cinnamon/dilute.

Tienie

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:21 pm

Stefan

This is how it started

Blue Cinnamon & Greygreen Dilute/blue
0,2 Greygreen Cinnamon/blue/dilute
0,1 Grey Cinnamon/dilute

Blueturq Dilute SL Edged & Greygreen Cinnamon/blue/dilute
1,0 Green SL Edged/cinnamon/dilute/(blue or turq)
1,0 Blueturq Dilute SL Edged/cinnamon

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:20 am

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:55 pm

Tienie's Bird

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:51 am

hello I have breed 4 cinnamon edged hens out of a cinnamon edged on a normal female onle one male and it was a cobalt edged/cinnamon

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:08 am

Anthony anth Mc Geer wrote:hello I have breed 4 cinnamon edged hens out of a cinnamon edged on a normal female onle one male and it was a cobalt edged/cinnamon

Thanks for that.

interested if a cinnamon-edged will breed a cinnamon hen without edged.

it sounds like your male is DF Edged ?! 5/5 edged birds ?
in which case he might not even be cinnamon at all.

Keep in mind:
SF edged hens are lighter in color than sf edged males (giving the impression of cinnamon) , looks more like a df edged male
(if your 4 hens look like the father then it could well be that there is no cinnamon in play)

cinnamon edged hens should be lighter than a cinnamon-edged male !

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:28 am

im not sure and the male is still moulting so cant show you, I bred the cobalt male, blue female and 3x grey, the male was a grey cinnamon edged(but the way you speak about DF im not sure now) and the female is cobalt cleartail

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:45 am

i have been thinking the male must be cinnamon cause I bred silver edged hens, if it was DF I should have bred grey edged

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:10 pm

Anthony

Can you please post a pic of a grey SL Edged female for comparison with your silver (grey cinnamon) SL Edged hen

Tienie

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:29 pm

I only have a pic of a silver turq sl edged female mature

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:37 pm

hope this helps with what you were asking for

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:40 pm

Anthony

Why do you say it is cinnamon, have you seen a grey SL Edged female. We all know SL Edged females are lighter compared to sf SL Edged males, but most people will say it is also cinnamon. All the dom edged females in SB book is referred to as dom edged cinnamon. There is very little difference in phenotype between SL Edged-cinnamon females and SL Edged females but SL Edged-cinnamon females are very patchy when they are young.

Tienie

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:44 pm

just because I haven't seen a pic to proof me wrong

Anthony anth Mc Geer · Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:47 pm

What about the Blue cinnamon edged that I posted a pic of?