Emerald Green Fluorescence

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Recio
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Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

I have received Mike's feathers from his "Emerald Turquoise Cleartail" and "Emerald split Cleartail" females, and I have look at them under a broad spectrum uv ligth and under a LED torch emitting at 395 nm. The observations are the same for both birds in both pulled and molted feathers.

Under 395 nm I can easily identify the patched fluorescent psittacin on undercovert feathers. This psittacin is not present in the whole feather but only on the most external part, similar to what has been described in green, lutinos and parblues birds. The rest of the feather appears non fluorescent. Tail feathers and primary flying feathers are not fluorescent.

Under a broad uv spectrum every feather appears fluorescent, on its totality, with a little difference in hue respective to the 395 nm torch, and, as Willy points, the underneath part of the tail feathers is more fluorescent than the above part. With my lamp I can not confirm Deon's observations of a bluish fluorescence but it looks more like a green-yellowish hue. I can not see at the same time both types of fluorescence because the yellowness present under the broad spectrum uv lamp masks the patches I can see under 395 nm.

Under normal ligthing I can make the difference between a normal Blue tail feather from my collection and the Emerald tail feather, looking at the underneath part, which shows a yellowish colour only in the Emerald feathers (this last point can easily be confirmed by Mike by having a close look at his birds). I can also see some feathers dysplaying a yellow colour only on the most exposed parts, and this area matches fluorescence under 395 nm.

Which is my interpretation? I think that all these feathers belong to green series Emerald birds because:
1. I can see the patched psittacin in independent feathers both under normal ligthing and under 395 nM.
2. I can make the difference between Blue and Emerald tail feathers under normal ligthing and under broad uv spectrum (not under 395 nm since there is not fluorescent patched psittacin in tail feathers)
2. Emerald is present in every feather as can be detected under uv broad spectrum.

So these observations are consistent with the idea that Mike's Emerald females are in fact green series birds, and that the mother of the 7 birds discussed previously is a Green Emerald Cleartail/Turquoise female.

It seems that it is not possible to make the difference between a central Blue tail feather and a central Emerald Blue tail feather under normal ligthing (Madas' reports on Willy's observations). If this is the case (not report of any difference on the underneath feather colour between Blue and Emerald Blue ... and I do not own either the birds or the feathers to verify), the easiest key to make the difference between a Blue and a Green series Emerald, under normal ligthing, could be the underneath colour of the central tail feathers : yellowish only in the green series.

The different hue in fluorescence under broad uv spectrum respective to Deon's observations could be due to a different ligth source but also to the presence of psittacins in those birds (whenever Deon's Emeralds were Blue series birds).

Under broad spectrum uv ligth the whole feather from Emeralds appears fluorescent and the underneath fluorescence is even higher. These are observations pointing to Emerald as a structural colour since the production of any pigment is not a costless bussiness for birds: if you look at the distribution of psittacin pigments in the feathers you will remark that they are deposited only in the parts exposed to the ligth. The inside parts or those kept under neighbouring feathers are without pigments. Far more, pigments are never deposited in a feather in an homogeneous way but in different concentrations depending the task to perform (sexual atraction, mechanical resistence, camouflage, ...).

Another conclusion related to the different fluorescence in Emeralds: we knew by Deon's reports (although the first report was a private communication from Willy) that the emitted fluorescence quality was different between the "normal" fluorescent psittacin present in Wild, Inos and Par-inos (or Parblues) and the Emerald fluorescence. Now we also know that the uv absorbed to produce fluorescence is also different: Emerald does not fluoresce when using uv ligth in the 395 nm range, so its absortion peak must be under 360 nm (the real peak emision of the 395 nm LED is around 370-450 nm, depending on intensity) while the patched psittacin fluoresce at around 395 nm. Very probably we could independently identify one and the other by using the 395 nm LED torch (specific for patched psittacin) and another one emitting in the 320-360 nm range (specific for Emerald fluorescence). Anyway both psittacins (whenever they are both psittacins) seem to show differents absortion and emission peaks.

Image

Thanks a lot to Mike for providing the feathers. It would be great to get some feathers from people owing Blue series Emeralds for close uv fluorescence studies.

Regards

Recio
prodigy
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by prodigy »

Hi Recio,

Can you please post pictures of the feathers you are describing above, in normal lighting conditions?

Thanks,

Peter
Johan S
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:With my lamp I can not confirm Deon's observations of a bluish fluorescence but it looks more like a green-yellowish hue.

...

Under broad spectrum uv ligth the whole feather from Emeralds appears fluorescent and the underneath fluorescence is even higher. These are observations pointing to Emerald as a structural colour since the production of any pigment is not a costless bussiness for birds: if you look at the distribution of psittacin pigments in the feathers you will remark that they are deposited only in the parts exposed to the ligth. The inside parts or those kept under neighbouring feathers are without pigments. Far more, pigments are never deposited in a feather in an homogeneous way but in different concentrations depending the task to perform (sexual atraction, mechanical resistence, camouflage, ...).
Hi Recio,

thanks for the write up on your fluorescence study. I'd like to offer an alternate proposal, seeing as you were not able to repeat Deon's observation. Does this mean that the fluorescence looks very similar?

I agree that the production and distribution of pigments would be costly to the bird. That in itself would result in natural selection in regions with a scarcity of food. However, if emerald is indeed a pigment type mutation, the distribution of the pigment uniformly over the entire feather should still be possible, even if costly. And you mention that the additional pigments are distributed on the backside of the feathers too. They would serve no function there, and shouldn't play a role in natural selection as mentioned (sexual atraction, mechanical resistence, camouflage, ...) as they'd mostly go unnoticed. So it should be possible for the mutation to survive in regions where the cost could be maintained with abundant food sources before and during moulting time. Now the interesting thing, I've heard from some sources that the early emeralds are rather large birds. Could that be because of a lot of food available to them?
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Johan S wrote:
Recio wrote:With my lamp I can not confirm Deon's observations of a bluish fluorescence but it looks more like a green-yellowish hue.

...

Under broad spectrum uv ligth the whole feather from Emeralds appears fluorescent and the underneath fluorescence is even higher. These are observations pointing to Emerald as a structural colour since the production of any pigment is not a costless bussiness for birds: if you look at the distribution of psittacin pigments in the feathers you will remark that they are deposited only in the parts exposed to the ligth. The inside parts or those kept under neighbouring feathers are without pigments. Far more, pigments are never deposited in a feather in an homogeneous way but in different concentrations depending the task to perform (sexual atraction, mechanical resistence, camouflage, ...).
Hi Recio,

thanks for the write up on your fluorescence study. I'd like to offer an alternate proposal, seeing as you were not able to repeat Deon's observation. Does this mean that the fluorescence looks very similar?

I agree that the production and distribution of pigments would be costly to the bird. That in itself would result in natural selection in regions with a scarcity of food. However, if emerald is indeed a pigment type mutation, the distribution of the pigment uniformly over the entire feather should still be possible, even if costly. And you mention that the additional pigments are distributed on the backside of the feathers too. They would serve no function there, and shouldn't play a role in natural selection as mentioned (sexual atraction, mechanical resistence, camouflage, ...) as they'd mostly go unnoticed. So it should be possible for the mutation to survive in regions where the cost could be maintained with abundant food sources before and during moulting time. Now the interesting thing, I've heard from some sources that the early emeralds are rather large birds. Could that be because of a lot of food available to them?
^The feathers from Mike are from the Australian mutation that was visually selected for it's phenotype by the late JS there was never any suggestion that this bird was related to Indian wild caught family this bird was also a darker hue as depicted in the earlier photo it was also regretfull that Jack was unable to obtain a mate for it hence he used blue and was unable to replicate the oringinal birds hue. :wink:
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

@ Peter: I will post pics next week when my wife will take the camera back.

@ Johan:

1. About fluorescence: the colour I see is quite close to the yellowish fluorescence of the patched psittacin in wild birds wing and head, but a bit greener. Mike has got similar results by using the same SA torch used by Deon, so the different hue between our observations (Green yellowish) and Deon's (bluish) seems not to depend on the torch but on the animals mutation: are those birds with different fluorescence different "Emeralds" (different mutations or different alleles) as Paul seems to suggest in his post? or is it the same mutation in blue and Green series?
I have ordered a 365 nm torch trying to get where is the specific absortion peak of Emerald (http://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Ultraviolet- ... m+uv+light).

2. About yellow distribution in Emerald feathers: as you say it is non sense to produce a higher amount of pigment in not exposed areas, and specially on the underneath part of tail feathers. In the post about the structural yellow I posted a pic of a feather showing a structural iridescent yellow colour which was visible only on the underneath part. Maybe the presence of pigments in the overneath part decreases the perception of the structural yellow :roll: . It would be great to see if the underneath fluorescence is higher in an Emerald Albino or Emerald DF dom pied.

3. About the size: it seems that the first wild caught Emerald comes from the north of India, which is colder than the south. We know that animals leaving in the cold become bigger to easierly survive by decreasing the amount of calories lost per unit of weight. So IRN leaving in the north of India are bigger, and mutations arising among these birds will also show this bigger size. Another explanation (Madas') is that Emerald mutation could have arised in the wild Alex, and then it could pass to IRN by hybridization (producing bigger birds) either in the wild (reproductive áreas of IRN and Alex overlaps each other) or in some aviaries :wink:

Merry Christmas

Recio
prodigy
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by prodigy »

Thanks Recio and Merry Christmas to you too!
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:The feathers from Mike are from the Australian mutation that was visually selected for it's phenotype by the late JS there was never any suggestion that this bird was related to Indian wild caught family this bird was also a darker hue as depicted in the earlier photo it was also regretfull that Jack was unable to obtain a mate for it hence he used blue and was unable to replicate the oringinal birds hue. :wink:
Hi Paul,

Are you meaning that there are two types of Emerald birds having arised one in India and the other one in Australia? It could explain the different fluorescence since Deon's bird comes from the indian line (Babu .... Chris ..... Deon) and Mike's bird comes from the Australian line (that's what you say)
Maybe Jack was unable to replicate the original birds hue because he mated the bird to a blue bird instead to a Wild Green bird :wink:

Maybe Mike and Chris could have a look to their Emerald birds under the same uv torch to verify if they really show a different fluorescence hue.

Some interesting reading:
http://phys.org/news/2013-02-birds-evol ... ision.html

Regards

Recio
Johan S
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Johan S »

Hi Recio,

and a merry Xmas to you and your family as well! And to the rest of the forum. :D
Mad Max
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Mad Max »

Merry X-Mas to all on the forum
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Recio there is a couple of facts in your reply to my earlier post in reference to the origin of the Emerald in Aus that need varification in order for your feather study to move forward. 1\ As far as I know there has only been one family of Emerald in this country that were all related back to the one (hen) which was the only known proginitor of the whole entire Aus mutation. 2\ I have never heard of a second family in Aus from any other source of this mutation that Chris would have been able to send to Deon. 3\ The time frame between Babu alledged consignment of the Dom Pied and Emerald has a 3 to 4 year time gap so for them to be in the same travel package is unlikely. 4\ Only Chris can explain how the birds he exported to SA could be from a different source . 5\ I regard this information to be of the utmost inportance for your comparison u.v. studies. 6\ I am sure we will agree we need to establish a history or linage of the subject birds in order to focus on an accurate data base. 7/ A suggestion I can give in regards to the disparity between the Deon result and your own result is to look at the parentage of Deon's subject bird the reason I suggest this action is I don't consider the phenotype of this bird typical to the Aus Emerald. Good Luck and thankyou for your efforts.
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi Paul,

I always had the idea that the Emerald mutation arised in India and was first described by Babu. But you wrote:

The feathers from Mike are from the Australian mutation that was visually selected for it's phenotype by the late JS there was never any suggestion that this bird was related to Indian wild caught family this bird was also a darker hue as depicted in the earlier photo it was also regretfull that Jack was unable to obtain a mate for it hence he used blue and was unable to replicate the oringinal birds hue.

The same mutation can arise in different moments and countries .... but in most cases it is not exactly the same mutation but different alleles of the same gene, with similar phenotypic expression for our eyes. Sometimes there are sligth differences and we say that those birds are "different lines" of the same mutation, because the homozygous combo show the mutation (as for the recessive pieds). This allele complementarity is usefull for recessive mutations, but it becomes really hard to show for dominant mutations. Has anybody tried to get a combo (homozygous Emerald) of both "Emerald lines"? If the answer is NOT, then we do not even know if they are alleles of the same gene (whatever is the good theory) or if they are different mutations (remember the situation of the NSL-ino birds). If the uv signature was different it could point to different mutations more likely than different alleles of the same mutation. Time will tell us.

Regards

Recio

PS: I have just received the 365 nm torch. I will have a look at my birds and Mike Emerald feathers this week-end.
prodigy
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by prodigy »

Still waiting for the pictures my friend ;-)
Ring0Neck
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Ring0Neck »

I think it got to Oz along with the opaline and dom pied in a 'group travel scheme'

Molossus, you're right about the emerald
not sure about the pied though
see below from J S's book revised edition '97:

He wouldn't have called it OZ pied if it was imported
it looks like a lutino pied doesn't it? :idea:

Image

Image

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Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Australian pied referd to turned out to be an acquired mutation and never reproduced pied even after several years of breeding it has nothing to do with dom pieds that did arrive in travel package once again the Emerald was not in that package. Not sure of timeing thou travel package late 90's (98-99) emerald (202) Aus issue.
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi Paul,

Maybe it is a language problem from me, but I am not yet sure to have correctly understood. Are you meaning that the australian Emeralds have arised in Australia and are not related at all to the indian Emeralds described by Babu? I have has some private communications saying that both are the same mutation and that the first australian Emerald comes from one of Babu's friends :?:

@ Peter: pics coming soon together with 365 nm observations. Unfortunatelly tonigth I am at work and I can not do the uv observations.

Regards

Recio
Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Photographing Emeralds is not an easy task, as background colour plays a major modifying role with the modern digital cameras. Black and White
Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Sorry about that. Emerald capturing on photos is not easy due to colour distortion, especially by the action of modern digital cameras. Black and white backgrounds causes a lot of colour distortion, blue seems better but outside, natural white light in bright shade seems to be best. I am however experimenting with different colours.

UV-induced fluorescence poses its own problems. I am attaching image 0019 of a Emerald Blue. I do not find the yellow of Turquoise and as the viewer will agree, it has a cold whitish green quality with bluish elements without the warm yellow elements of Turquoise.
IMG_0019.jpg
IMG_0019.jpg (56.86 KiB) Viewed 53753 times
My best results are with the use of a Black Light tube like used in disco's, emits from 345-400nm and peaks at 365nm. Far better than a 375nm source or a 395nm one so I suspect the lower wavelengths are where Emerald performs, while I have an unproven idea that Turquoise, which is a pigment mutation, fluoresces at a longer wavelength.

There is no difference between the dorsal or ventral sides' fluorescence Johan or upperside and underside, I shall send images of that now. This supports the very becoming ideas pointing towards a structural mutation.

Deon
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi Deon,

My observations of Emerald feathers were made in total darkness and with a black background. The colour I saw matches the one in your pic: green-yellow-yellowish and, as you say, without the warmer colour of the patched psittacin we can see in green, lutinos and parblues (mainly Turquoise). It also matches feather distribution (the whole feather appears fluorescent).

I can also confirm that the fluorescent patched psittacin of green, lutinos and Turquoise fluoresce at 395 nm, but not the Emerald feathers. Tomorrow I will be able to confirm Emerald fluorescence at 365 nm (happy to see that this is the wavelength with the best results in your experience), and to notice if the patched psittacin fluoresces at this short wavelength or not (it will help me also in believing manufaturer specifications about torch quality :) ).

Something I have learnt last week from my wild type youngsters of the last year: they are 8 months old and they show the fluorescence on the wing patches but not in the head. Thus, very probably, the head fluorescence appears at adulthood and is more important in sexual behaviour than the wing patch fluorescence, specially keeping in mind that it is different in males and females (in males it goes to the back of the eye but not in females).

The difference in fluorescence between both sides of the feather has been specifically described for the main tail feather. Willy described it and I can confirm his observation. Deon, did you specifically look at the main tail feathers?

Best regards

Recio
Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Attached a view of the ventral surface's fluorescence. Due to KB restrictions I will stay with this.
Attachments
IMG_0028.jpg
IMG_0028.jpg (85.29 KiB) Viewed 53745 times
Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

0018 Dorsal view
IMG_0018.jpg
IMG_0018.jpg (65.69 KiB) Viewed 53739 times
0025 Ventral view
Attachments
IMG_0025.jpg
IMG_0025.jpg (65.48 KiB) Viewed 53739 times
Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Recio, note that the last 2 images are of a Blue Emerald Opaline.

Deon
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi Deon,

Your last pics seems to confirm that there is more "yellow" colour under uv on the ventral part of the tail feathers (specially in the proximal part) than in the dorsal part.

Recio
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Recio what I am saying is what the late JS discussed several times over various visits to his property he always maintained that the Emeralds were not part of the travel package he recieved around the late 90's and as he stated in his article in the ABK he aquired the original hen here in Aus he never commented on the history of this first hen other than stateing he was attracted by it's phenotype.I think that verified fact should be a base and supposition should only be used when these are unavailable.There may well be information with regard to the origin of this first hen and pherhaps someone can fill in the gap. :idea:
Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Vic the exact date or time period of its first appearance might be invaluable to assist, my info states that Emerald did not enter Oz at the same time as Harlequin and Opaline

Deon Smith
bennjamin
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by bennjamin »

Deon, the Emerald mutation arrived as a 4 pack with a fellow of your name, who, unfortunately is no longer with us. Two of these were reared and were the foundation of the Australian Emerald. Both these birds, a hen and a cock, were in the same hands and were paired with blues till their owners passing. They are now in new hands and have this year been paired together and have produced seven chicks. I am sure you will hear more of these birds. Recio rest assured you are working with the same mutation.
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

bennjamin wrote:Deon, the Emerald mutation arrived as a 4 pack with a fellow of your name, who, unfortunately is no longer with us. Two of these were reared and were the foundation of the Australian Emerald. Both these birds, a hen and a cock, were in the same hands and were paired with blues till their owners passing. They are now in new hands and have this year been paired together and have produced seven chicks. I am sure you will hear more of these birds. Recio rest assured you are working with the same mutation.
Hi this is interesting information could you please let us know more on this subject. Regards
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

Some pics:

Tools: from left to rigth 395nm torch, 365 nm torch & broad uv spectrum lamp

Image



Emerald Green main tail feather between two blue feathers (dorsal view, normal lighting):

Image



Emerald Green main tail feather between two blue feathers (dorsal view, high intensity 365 nm):

Image


Emerald Green main tail feather between two blue feathers (dorsal view, low intensity 365 nm):

Image


Emerald Green main tail feather between two blue feathers (ventral view, normal lighting):

Image


Emerald Green main tail feather between two blue feathers (ventral view, 365 nm):

Image

As you can see we can easily make the difference between an Emerald Green and a Blue feather either under normal lighting or under uv. In both situations the intensity of the yellow colour is higher on the ventral part of the feather. The Emerald Green feather is a pulled feather from a Green Emerald Cleartail/Turquoise (the mother of the seven chicks from Mike). Its curved shape is due to traveling inside a little envelope from Australia to France.


I have also had a look to my green series birds under 365 nm and I can see that the apparent fluorescence increases in area appearing in the saddle area (little or nothing fluorescence in this area under 395 nm) and spreading away. The wing patches appear more whitish and brigther than under 395 nm. The fluorescence area in the head also increases going down to the ring. Curiously a green cinnamon female shows an orange body colour under 365 nm. These results need further studies, since it seems that there are different psittacins and/or that the same psittacin can appear differently under different uv wavelengths.

One significant conclusion (to me) is that there are green and blue series Emeralds, and the easiest way to make the difference seems to be the tail colour (specially the ventral part, and specially under 365 nm uv lighting). Anyway a similar study with a Green Emerald feather, a Blue Emerald feather and a normal Blue feather (serving as a control) all in the same pic could be precious to assure that there are really Blue and Green series Emeralds. I am ready to do it if somebody send me the feathers.

Regards

Recio
Gratz
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Gratz »

Recio
firstly let me thank you for sharing your results
A few things have come to my mind reading your results,
firstly Mikes bird, are we certain it is an Emerald Green as I am under the impression that it was called an Emerald turquoise blue, having turquoise in the makeup of the bird can we truly see if it is green series or blue series Emerald.
secondly on the matter of green series and blue series , its only my theory (Gratz's Theory :lol: )that the Emerald bird should be Emerald , now by breeding Emerald to blue and then the offspring Emerald to Blue again and again the Emerald(green) has been diluted or washed out or whatever one may call it) and the true Emerald is showing or getting bluer creating a blue series Emerald,.I came to this conclusion from what has happened to the true violet(purple bird) been bred over and over with Blue birds the Violet bird has lightened in colour,ie Violetblue now link that to Emeralds we have Emeraldblue
ps I personally witnessed the Emerald changing in my own aviary I have a young Emerald to look at it looks like a green series Emerald but in full sunlight next to its mother the baby seems bluer.
Happy new year to all

regards Gratz
Ring0Neck
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Ring0Neck »



I was going to write a post but meanwhile Willy has written this email putting it better then i could, and i quote:
"I have noticed a lot of ‘Green series’ and ‘Blue series’ in recent posts. IMO Green series is when 2 wild type genes occupy the Blue locus, Blue series is when 2 Blue genes occupy the Blue locus. Surely Parblue has its own special case and we should refer to these birds as Parblue series birds irrelevant to the Emerald discussion, 1 Parblue and 1 Blue gene at the Blue locus? If we have a homozygous Parblue or a heteroallele Parblue1Parblue2, these birds are Green series, there is no Blue gene present. A Blue series bird should be Blue, as in devoid of psitticins, that should be the defining condition. All the rest should be Green series and Parblue series or all Green series, ie; birds with psitticins. I prefer giving Parblues series status."



Recio: a breeder IDs a bird as emerald-turquoise, breeds from it emeralds & turquoise as expected.

Should we call all homozygous parblues or heteroallele parblues birds: green? & why not?

Happy New Year everyone !


Ben



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prodigy
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by prodigy »

Thanks for the pic's Recio !
Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Gratz wrote:firstly Mikes bird, are we certain it is an Emerald Green as I am under the impression that it was called an Emerald turquoise blue, having turquoise in the makeup of the bird can we truly see if it is green series or blue series Emerald.
Hi Gratz,

Mike's bird was called EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail because it was an Emerald bird producing turquoise chicks and on the basis that Turquoise and Emerald were alleles of the same gene, but not because turquoise was present in the bird's phenotype. We know that Turquoise is not masked by either Emerald (we all have seen patched Emerald Turquoise phenotypes) or Cleartail (as showed by Madas' pics), thus this female producing Turquoise chicks owns the Turquoise gene but it is not expressed in the mother. All this means that the Turquoise gene is carried as split (otherwise we should see the turquoise patches in an adult blue series bird), and an Emerald bird split to Turquoise means that Emerald and Turquoise are not alleles of the same gene, and , thus, the female is a green series bird split for Turquoise (SF Emerald Green Cleartail/Turquoise).
Something else:
1.TurquoiseBlue birds do not show any yellowness in the main wing and tail feathers under normal lighting.... it means that there is not visual psittacin.
2. Willy's pics have shown that Blue and Emerald (Blue series emerald) tail feathers look the same under normal ligthing... it means that the yellowness induced by Emerald (whatever it is structural or pigmentary) is not visible in blue series birds under normal ligthing.
3... so ... where does it come the different colour (yellowish although the pics quality does not reflect what I can see directly probably due to the flash effect) we can see in this female's tail feather under normal lighting? I say that it depends on the normal psittacin present in the tail of green series birds, maybe at a lower level, since Clairtail decreases tail feather psittacins. Probably the amount of psittacins in the tail feather of a Green Emerald bird is even higher and is clearly visible to the naked eye under normal ligthing. Looking at a Green Emerald (or Green/Emerald) under 365 nm uv would confirm that Emerald is dominant and not a parblue (or not :evil: ) and allow to finish this discusion (although I find that we are all learning a lot with this long lasting brainstorm :) ). So, come on people owing Emeralds, try to breed an Emerald to a plain green bird.

Here I have also answered Ringo's question.
secondly on the matter of green series and blue series , its only my theory (Gratz's Theory :lol: )that the Emerald bird should be Emerald , now by breeding Emerald to blue and then the offspring Emerald to Blue again and again the Emerald(green) has been diluted or washed out or whatever one may call it) and the true Emerald is showing or getting bluer creating a blue series Emerald,.
I know what you mean, similar to pallids getting lighther by being paired to lutinos ... but I do not think it is true. I think it is Gratz theory :lol: The allele chain of nucleotides does not change with the time passing if there is not a selective pressure, but, sometimes man acts by selecting birds for specific features and this makes evolve the apparent phenotype by acting not only on the specific gene but also on other genes related to the phenotypic expression of that mutation.
I personally witnessed the Emerald changing in my own aviary I have a young Emerald to look at it looks like a green series Emerald but in full sunlight next to its mother the baby seems bluer.
This midway colour between green and blue, with an apparent change depending on ligthing conditions, is what makes difficult to identify blue and green series emeralds.

@ Willy's comments on blue and green series: it is a convention to say that parblues (partial blue) are blue series birds. We could also call them "pargreens" (partial green) and say that they are green series birds. They are half way in the expression of psittacins between the homozygous null expression (homozygous Blue) and the Homozygous full expression (Homozygous Wild). It has been choosen to refer to them as parblue instead of as pargreen, but it changes nothing in my reasoning since it has been based on the main tail feather colour, which is the same in either blue or parblue (or pargreen): devoided of any psittacin.

Best happy new 2014 year to everybody, those still here and those who quited the forum.

Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Gratz »

Hi Recio

thank you for your explanation

below i present 2 photos one of the young birds an Emerald and a blue, differance is clearly visable, in the other photo is the mother same photo but left the mother out of the first photo so you could see that the Emerald looks Green next to the blue, Then compare the mother and the baby the mother is a darker shade of green.

Recio, regarding breeding Emerald to Green I know someone who has but all the babies are green,blue and Emerald the problem as he says is that the Green birds are possibly masking Emerald and he doesnt have the room to keep all the green birds to test mate them to see if they do carry or are split for Emerald. So hopefully there is someone out there that will pursue this combination

regards
Gratz

[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Ring0Neck »



Hi Recio,

Mike's bird was called EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail because it was an Emerald bird producing turquoise chicks and on the basis that Turquoise and Emerald were alleles of the same gene, but not because turquoise was present in the bird's phenotype.

Mike's bird from what i understand was sold to him as EmeraldTurquoise so both breeders seller & Mike agreed that the bird is EmeraldTurquoise hence the transaction going ahead. Breeding results merely reinforced the bird being exactly that.

So, come on people owing Emeralds, try to breed an Emerald to a plain green bird.

It has been done and Aaron has a green series bird split emerald that bred a violet emerald. that's 3-4 years worth of work right there given JF's breeding Aaron's split.



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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:
So, come on people owing Emeralds, try to breed an Emerald to a plain green bird.

It has been done and Aaron has a green series bird split emerald that bred a violet emerald. that's 3-4 years worth of work right there given JF's breeding Aaron's split.
Hi Ben, any news on a picture; or do you think it's not going to happen?

Happy New Year to all the forumites! :D
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Ring0Neck »

I just spoke to Aaron today, he said birds were moulting just coming good now.
pic will come soon.

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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Ring0Neck



Please ask Aaron for an image of the green bird that bred the Violet Emerald. Please ask him about the breeding history, what was the green parent's parents, what else were bred from the original Emerald pairing, and what were bred from the Green bird.


Gratz


It is very easy and quick to identify an Emerald; just use a UV torch, the bright evenly glowing Emeralds in a white greenish hue will stand out like beacons. Green birds fluoresce rich yellow, while Blue does not fluoresce at all and the Parblues will have a patchy arrangement of fluorescence especially on the head, shoulders and thighs with bleaker areas inbetween.


All the best for everyone including William Stobart.


Deon Smith
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Chriskoi »

Recio wrote: but not because turquoise was present in the bird's phenotype. We know that Turquoise is not masked by either Emerald (we all have seen patched Emerald Turquoise phenotypes) or Cleartail (as showed by Madas' pics), thus this female producing Turquoise chicks owns the Turquoise gene but it is not expressed in the mother. All this means that the Turquoise gene is carried as split (otherwise we should see the turquoise patches in an adult blue series bird), and an Emerald bird split to Turquoise means that Emerald and Turquoise are not alleles of the same gene, and , thus, the female is a green series bird split for Turquoise (SF Emerald Green Cleartail/Turquoise).
I am still not convinced. If your theory holds true then at least one green series chick without emerald should be breed among the offspring (25% normal green series birds, 25% emerald green birds, ....). But this wasn't the case for both pairs "EmeraldTurq" x blue series bird until now.

Perhaps Mikes bird is an EmeraldIndigo instead of EmeraldTurq and so the patchiness isn't visible very well.

Chris
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

I said that the pics were not good enough to show, under normal lighting, the presence of the yellow colour (either pigmentary or structural) in the tail feathers of the Emerald Green Cleartail/Turquoise female. Now I have made some new pics with a black background and the yellow colour is far more evident. Here they are:


Image

Image

Willy has shown that the main tail feathers of Blues and Blue Emerald (or BlueEmerald for him) look the same under normal lighting (no yellowness). Here we can clearly see the difference between the tail feather of Mike's female (with "yellowness" and thus looking greener) and a Blue feather, confirming that, as predicted by the "non parblue Emerald hypothesis", Mike's female is a green series Emerald (SF Emerald Green Cleartail/Turquoise).

To the owners of Emeralds: compare the main tail feather of your Emeralds to a normal Blue tail feather. If they look the same your Emeralds are Blues series birds. If the feather of your Emerald is greener than the normal Blue tail feather your birds are green series Emeralds. If you own only one type of bird (green or blue series) it would point to a very high linkage and probably we would need to pull data from many breeders to calculate the crossing-over rate and the offspring ratio.

@ Gratz: The descriptions of Emerald that have been made stated that the Emerald colour was present from fledging, but I have never read that there was an increase in "yellowness" (greener bird) with age. This is the first time I read/see it. Can anybody else confirm? Could this be another "marker" of green series Emeralds, since the normal psittacin pigment is known to increase with the time passing?
Gratz wrote:Recio, regarding breeding Emerald to Green I know someone who has but all the babies are green,blue and Emerald the problem as he says is that the Green birds are possibly masking Emerald and he doesnt have the room to keep all the green birds to test mate them to see if they do carry or are split for Emerald. So hopefully there is someone out there that will pursue this combination
Hi Gratz,

If all the babies are Green, Blue and Emerald, it means that the Emerald parent was paired to a Green/Blue (If there were green babies from an Emerald paired to a Blues series bird the discussion would be finished rigth now :o ). As Deon says he can look at the chicks under uv looking for the specific uv signature of Emerald masked in the Green chicks under normal lighting ... but I doubt strongly that he will find it if the Emerald locus is in the same chromossome that the Blue locus, and thus, they are linked. That means that most probably all the "Emerald" chicks are either Green Emeralds or Blue Emeralds, but we will not find both of them in the same nest due to the linkage phenomenon. This also answers Criskoi question about the % of Emerald chicks to get in the offspring. The only way to avoid this problem is to pair an Emerald bird (it does not matter if it is Green or Blue series) to a Green bird not split for Blue/Parblues. In this situation, whatever theory we will get Green birds heterozygous for Emerald (50%). If Emerald is a parblue their phenotype will be normal green and we will not see the specific uv signature of Emerald under uv. If Emerald is not a parblue, but a linked incomplete dominant mutation, the heterozygous Emerald will produce phenotypic Emerald Green birds (similar to Mike's female ?, greener?, ???) with the typical fluorescence of Emerald under uv.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Gratz »

Deon and Recio

thanks for all this very helpful information

Deon, I will ask this person if he will allow me to see the birds under a uv light,I hope he will and I will and I will post the results,once again thank you for sharing that information.
Deon is there a specific type of UV I need to look for?
thanks
Recio,
I have been told that the pairing is Emerald to a Green CHF (most likely Green/blue CHF) as babies are 2 Green, 1 Emerald and 1 Blue.
thank you for pointing out the split blue.
regards
Gratz
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Ring0Neck »



Recio,

Let's not forget that Mike's hen is merely 1 year old bird, certainly not mature.
You used to be very strong on not using young Parblues to compare/judge their phenotype.

Recio,
I have been told that the pairing is Emerald to a Green CHF (most likely Green/blue CHF) as babies are 2 Green, 1 Emerald and 1 Blue.
thank you for pointing out the split blue.
regards
Gratz


As we can see pairing emerald to a green/blue gives us nothing to work with.
Unless the green is 100% not split for blue this pairing is not usefull.
* What can be done with the emerald chick from that pairing is to compare it to another EmeraldBlue of the same age !
Photos using Flash at dawn just before getting dark. but both birds must be included in the same shot, see a pic below why.

3 photos same bird, front, back & flash just before getting dark (first 2 pics were taken earlier).
Note: this bird in the pic below is not emerald, it is just an example what we should aim for using flash in the dark.

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/2yo.jpg

IMO using this method removes all unwanted shades/lighting reflected onto the bird... and gives a true reading of the 2 birds phenotype by having the same amount of flash light projected onto them.


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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Let's not forget that Mike's hen is merely 1 year old bird, certainly not mature.
You used to be very strong on not using young Parblues to compare/judge their phenotype
Hi Ringo,
A 1 year old breeding female is "mature enough for breeding", but you are rigth: the final colour is only achieved after 2-3 years in females and 3-5 years in males. Anyway if this female is producing Turquoise chicks, which are already identified in the nest, it means that her Turquoise allele is producing a high amount of psittacins, and thus if she was a phenotypic turquoise we should have been able to identify the patches at 1 year.
As we can see pairing emerald to a green/blue gives us nothing to work with.
Unless the green is 100% not split for blue this pairing is not usefull.
* What can be done with the emerald chick from that pairing is to compare it to another EmeraldBlue of the same age !
Photos using Flash at dawn just before getting dark. but both birds must be included in the same shot, see a pic below why.

3 photos same bird, front, back & flash just before getting dark (first 2 pics were taken earlier).
IMO using this method removes all unwanted shades/lighting reflected onto the bird... and gives a true reading of the 2 birds phenotype by having the same amount of flash light projected onto them
I agree completelly and this is the reason I asked for an Emerald Blue tail feather to compare with in the same shot that the normal Blue and the Green Emerald feather. If somebody owns both Emerald series (to detect upon main tail feather colour) it would be great he takes a pic of the main tail feathers side by side under normal ligthing, and of both series Emeralds together with a normal blue bird of the same age, under the ligthing conditions you have just described.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

I have been away from the forum for a while and must surely have missed a lot. There are a couple of aspects about the Emerald Question I want to give my view.

The sayings about blue series and green series:
If we stick to the general consensus that Emerald is a recessive allele of the blue locus, then both the homozygote b[*e]b[*e] and heteroallelic heterozygote EmeraldBlue b[*e]b ( a mouthful, but the definition of heterozygote:
an individual having two different alleles of a particular gene or genes, and so giving rise to varying offspring.) must be blue series as the two alleles are both from the blue locus.

In this scenario I cannot see how a green series Emerald can exist.

For about a year, confident opinions were heard that are outright revolutionary: theories that Emerald might not be this at all but something far different, namely a dominant structural mutation. This assumption is based on observations, including its behaviour under UV illumination, (the colour, layout and consistency and the co-presence of psittacin pigment patterns), impressions, and comparisons to other Psittacines with possibly the same mutation. However, inadequate scientific evidence in the sense of dedicated photometric studies has so far been presented.

If we look at the group of structural mutations, Grey, Dark factor, Violet, Deep and Misty, all inherit dominantly, and do not cause a disruption of pigments; they cause physical changes to light waves entering and exiting, changing its colour perception. While general consensus sees the Emerald mutation as an allele of the blue locus, there are confident voices, including myself, that it may very well be a separate dominant structural mutation, although there is little scientific proof for this premise, in other words a mutation that acts on the structure of plumage, as the other proven structural mutations do, like the Dark factor, Grey, Violet, Deep, Misty, incidentally all dominant mutations.

All these dominant mutations have a green form as well as a blue one, the latter which is much more prominent because Blue itself is dramatically modified by these dominant structural mutations. Look at the dramatic visual effect of the violet mutation for instance, by a wavelength change. The dominant mutations are thus not dependant on pigments. A Green form can be combined with many non-blue mutations, and all these combination colours like Violetgreen ADM Pied, Violetgreen Cleartail etc would constitute a Green series.

How is it possible that Emerald may be a structural mutation? William Stobart writes:

‘Further to this structural Emerald theory, if the mutation is structural then where is the fluorescence coming from? Structure will not fluoresce; there is nothing chemical in structure. The undersides of the tail feathers fluoresce when there is clearly no structural colour visible underneath the feather. If that premise is accepted then what you are proposing is that Emerald does 2 things, alters structure AND lays down fluorescent pigments over the whole bird. IMO multiple and diverse actions controlled at a single locus just do not occur.’
Willy it is important to look at the basis of the radiance we see under UV illumination, namely UV-induced Fluorescence which has its main effect through wavelengths in the visible spectrum emitted from pigments and typically appears in a patchy distribution, and UV-induced Reflectance from various surfaces, which may easily be changed by a structural change. Scientific studies with photometry and fluorometry in the budgerigar has shown reflectance to play even a larger role in the UV spectrum that us humans cannot see in natural light, the so-called Invisible Spectrum.

The even radiance of an Emerald under UV, with basically similar appearance on dorsal and ventral surfaces, on which yellow pigment-induced fluorescence may overlay, is in my view a very realistic theory.
In this sense, how will a Green series Emerald look? Aaron’s images are massively important, the green offspring, its sibs and its offspring. I shall try again this year to breed the hen from the description in the following paragraph to a pure Green this year.

I brought in two Emeralds from Chris Whipps in 2013, bred from Emerald Blue X Emerald Blue. The two look exactly similar to me, but Chris identified what he, I and Tienie Carr thought was a “DF Emerald” and a “SF”, based on blue colouration extending over the primary wing coverts. The “DF” had 5 empty eggs, the “SF” paired to a TurqBlue Opaline had 5 magnificent Emerald offspring, 4 Opalines and one cock Emerald Blue/opaline, all 5 showing the brilliant icy-green radiance from initial feathering.

We should accept that all Emeralds were bred to blue series birds, so consider that if proven to be Dominant from a separate Emerald locus, many will also be Blue. So instead of being EmeraldBlue, what about Emerald Blue?

Deon
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Emerald Blue Opaline
IMG_0038.jpg
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Emerald TurquoiseBlue Opaline
IMG_0044.jpg
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Deon Smith »

Father a TurqBlue Opaline on the left, the mother Emerald Blue or Emerald on the far right
2013-11-09 18.33.14-1.jpg
Chriskoi
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Chriskoi »

Deon Smith wrote:Father a TurqBlue Opaline on the left, the mother Emerald Blue or Emerald on the far right
2013-11-09 18.33.14-1.jpg
Nice clutch Deon. Well done. :D And please try to breed again with this pair in next season. ;)

@Recio: So how to explain this offspring with your emerald dominant theory??? No green or blue chick among the offspring. :(

regards.

Chris
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Deon Smith wrote:Father a TurqBlue Opaline on the left, the mother Emerald Blue or Emerald on the far right
2013-11-09 18.33.14-1.jpg
Hi Deon,

Nice birds. I guess the offspring in the pic are all females, and the brother is not there. I also guess that you have posted it waiting for coments without inducing any idea with your thoughts ... so here I go: Opaline is known to increase the expression of psittacins, so if there were in this clutch green and blue series Emeralds, the greener colour of the Green series offspring, due to the presence of psittacins, would be enhanced by Opaline and we could have a chance to detect it. In my monitor, me and all my familly (I am not confident to my eyes) can clearly see that the two chicks in the middle are bluer and the two chicks on the sides are greener, pointing to both series of birds present in your offspring. Can you confirm this by looking at the birds in the flesh? ... and could you compare their tail feathers?
Another possibility would be that the Turquoise gene from the father passed to the greener chicks. Can you see any patchiness in the greener chicks?

@ Criskoi: ... and how can the parblue theory explain 100% Emerald offspring?
I speculated about it in a previous post: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... &start=200

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Chriskoi »

Recio wrote: Hi Deon,

Nice birds. I guess the offspring in the pic are all females, and the brother is not there. I also guess that you have posted it waiting for coments without inducing any idea with your thoughts ... so here I go: Opaline is known to increase the expression of psittacins, so if there were in this clutch green and blue series Emeralds, the greener colour of the Green series offspring, due to the presence of psittacins, would be enhanced by Opaline and we could have a chance to detect it. In my monitor, me and all my familly (I am not confident to my eyes) can clearly see that the two chicks in the middle are bluer and the two chicks on the sides are greener, pointing to both series of birds present in your offspring. Can you confirm this by looking at the birds in the flesh? ... and could you compare their tail feathers?
Another possibility would be that the Turquoise gene from the father passed to the greener chicks. Can you see any patchiness in the greener chicks?
Come on Recio. It's not your day. :D So why should all the offspring birds be females??? Pair is Opaline x non Opaline and i can see two opalines and two normals. So the normals are males. :)
The two greener ones are EmeraldTurq birds one in opaline and split for opaline. the other two are EmeraldBlue. same: one opaline and one split for opaline.
Recio wrote: @ Criskoi: ... and how can the parblue theory explain 100% Emerald offspring?
I speculated about it in a previous post: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... &start=200
Either Deon is a lucky breeder or the emerald is really homozyguos for emerald. ;)

Chris
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Recio »

Chriskoi wrote:
Recio wrote: Hi Deon,

Nice birds. I guess the offspring in the pic are all females, and the brother is not there. I also guess that you have posted it waiting for coments without inducing any idea with your thoughts ... so here I go: Opaline is known to increase the expression of psittacins, so if there were in this clutch green and blue series Emeralds, the greener colour of the Green series offspring, due to the presence of psittacins, would be enhanced by Opaline and we could have a chance to detect it. In my monitor, me and all my familly (I am not confident to my eyes) can clearly see that the two chicks in the middle are bluer and the two chicks on the sides are greener, pointing to both series of birds present in your offspring. Can you confirm this by looking at the birds in the flesh? ... and could you compare their tail feathers?
Another possibility would be that the Turquoise gene from the father passed to the greener chicks. Can you see any patchiness in the greener chicks?
Come on Recio. It's not your day. :D So why should all the offspring birds be females??? Pair is Opaline x non Opaline and i can see two opalines and two normals. So the normals are males. :)
The two greener ones are EmeraldTurq birds one in opaline and split for opaline. the other two are EmeraldBlue. same: one opaline and one split for opaline.
Recio wrote: @ Criskoi: ... and how can the parblue theory explain 100% Emerald offspring?
I speculated about it in a previous post: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... &start=200
Either Deon is a lucky breeder or the emerald is really homozyguos for emerald. ;)

Chris
Hi Chriskoi,

Read and think twice before answering.

Recio
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Re: Emerald Green Fluorescence

Post by Ring0Neck »

Chriskoi wrote:

The two greener ones are EmeraldTurq birds one in opaline and split for opaline. the other two are EmeraldBlue. same: one opaline and one split for opaline.
Recio wrote: @ Criskoi: ... and how can the parblue theory explain 100% Emerald offspring?
I speculated about it in a previous post: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... &start=200
Either Deon is a lucky breeder or the emerald is really homozyguos for emerald. ;)

Chris
I concur with Chriskoi
First chick is EmeraldTurquoise Opaline, an EmeraldBlue/opaline male, EmeraldBlue Opaline male, EmeraldTurquoise Opaline hen
I don't know about luck but i'd go for Homozygous Emerald hen. Congrats !

Deon wrote:
an individual having two different alleles of a particular gene or genes, and so giving rise to varying offspring...
Could we deduce from above that Homozygous Parblues won't vary in their phenotype?
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