Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

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Johan S
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Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:50 am

Hi everyone,

here is a puzzle with a couple of different approaches to solve. However, I'd like to know what you think the best approach is. The goal, we want to breed a homozygous turquoise from a collection of birds with parblues available. However, we have no guarantees to which birds are heterozygous and which are homozygous parblues. Also, the green birds for our test could be split for either turquoise of blue as well.

What approach do you follow to ensure the end result, a 100% sure homozygous parblue. Call them, turquoise, df turquoise, homozygous turquoise, no matter here, whichever you prefer.

So, my approach is this.
Step 1: Pair some turquoise birds (df turquoise, (sf) turquoiseblue, we don't know exactly which, but they are parblues none the less) to a normal green / blue or turq. The green split is again of unknown genetic history.
Step 2: Test breed the green series offspring from step one, being green / blue or turq, with a blue partner. Identify the nests where you breed green and turquoiseblue offspring. You want the green / turquoise parents from these pairs.
Step 3: Pair the green / turquoise parents together and wait for your 25% homozygous turquoise.

The puzzle then, can you improve on the method above to get to the result in as short a time as possible? The only rule, you are not allowed to set up a pair and "wait it out", i.e. breeding 15+ chicks waiting for a blue bird to prove a heterozygous parblue parent. The rule rephrased, you must start with unknown genetic history of the birds and give a 100% fool proof recipe to achieve our final result.

Enjoy! And this isn't only for the regulars. Everybody is welcome to try.

Recio
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Recio » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:57 am

Johan S wrote:Hi everyone,

here is a puzzle with a couple of different approaches to solve. However, I'd like to know what you think the best approach is. The goal, we want to breed a homozygous turquoise from a collection of birds with parblues available. However, we have no guarantees to which birds are heterozygous and which are homozygous parblues. Also, the green birds for our test could be split for either turquoise of blue as well.

What approach do you follow to ensure the end result, a 100% sure homozygous parblue. Call them, turquoise, df turquoise, homozygous turquoise, no matter here, whichever you prefer.

So, my approach is this.
Step 1: Pair some turquoise birds (df turquoise, (sf) turquoiseblue, we don't know exactly which, but they are parblues none the less) to a normal green / blue or turq. The green split is again of unknown genetic history.
Step 2: Test breed the green series offspring from step one, being green / blue or turq, with a blue partner. Identify the nests where you breed green and turquoiseblue offspring. You want the green / turquoise parents from these pairs.
Step 3: Pair the green / turquoise parents together and wait for your 25% homozygous turquoise.

The puzzle then, can you improve on the method above to get to the result in as short a time as possible? The only rule, you are not allowed to set up a pair and "wait it out", i.e. breeding 15+ chicks waiting for a blue bird to prove a heterozygous parblue parent. The rule rephrased, you must start with unknown genetic history of the birds and give a 100% fool proof recipe to achieve our final result.

Enjoy! And this isn't only for the regulars. Everybody is welcome to try.
Hi Johan,

We did it in the past: take a parblue bird who has at least one blue parent or having produced at least one blue chick. Then you are 100% sure that this bird is a heterozygous parblue.
Pair this bird to a similar one and you will get your 25% homozygous parblue (I will use Willy's easier terminology "df Parblue").

The problem is: how can we recognize the df parblues among the siblings? It will be easy for parblues showing low amounts of psittacin, but ... how to do it for parblues morphotypes showing already a big amount of psittacin in the heterozygous birds (ParblueBlue)? Saturated psittacin?
Something else: we should try to avoid in the genetic make up of those birds mutations which could interfere with the deposition of psittacins, ex: mutations acting on the outer feather structure like probably Emerald and Misty. By the way ... has anybody ever seen an homozygous Misty in the green series? I bet Willy's house that the red ring has disappeared :D .

Regards

Recio
Last edited by Recio on Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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madas
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by madas » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:25 am

Recio wrote:Hi Johan,

We did it in the past: take a parblue bird who has at least one blue parent or having produced at least one blue chick. Then you are 100% sure that this bird is a heterozygous parblue.
Pair this bird to a similar one and you will get your 25% homozygous parblue (I will use Willy's easier terminology "df Parblue").

Regards

Recio
But only under the assumption that we can visualy distinct between heterozyguos and homozyguos parblue. :D
And i think it's not what Johan meant with "Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue".

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Recio » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:45 am

madas wrote:
Recio wrote:Hi Johan,

We did it in the past: take a parblue bird who has at least one blue parent or having produced at least one blue chick. Then you are 100% sure that this bird is a heterozygous parblue.
Pair this bird to a similar one and you will get your 25% homozygous parblue (I will use Willy's easier terminology "df Parblue").

Regards

Recio
But only under the assumption that we can visualy distinct between heterozyguos and homozyguos parblue. :D
And i think it's not what Johan meant with "Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue".
You posted this question at the same time I was re-editing my post thinking exactly the same. Great minds are syncronized :lol:

Recio

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Recio » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:09 am

Hi,

I am re-reading Johan post ... and he is rigth. His model would allow to get df Parblues for sure at the third step, no matter whether we are dealing with high or low level psittacins. We will not have any doubt that the final parblue offspring (whatever they look like) is homozygousn parblue. I can not see how his model could be improved.

Thanks Johan

Recio

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:23 am



I suggest we hunt down green/parblue birds with proven record of breeding visual parblue & green only, when paired to a blue


Saves us 3 years +

* When acquiring : Best if you see the young in the nest/cage to have no doubt of the green being /parblue


Done within 1 breeding season.


At the end of the day, we took the same course as Johan proposed we did not shorten it but rather we've taken over at green/parblue proven bird stage.
Result =Guaranteed Homozygous Parblue offspring

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by trabots » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:54 am

However, we have no guarantees to which birds are heterozygous and which are homozygous parblues.
Johan, what is the point when they are easily distinguishable, some early some not until their 2nd moult.

df Turquoise, TurquoiseBlue
Image

df Indigo
Image

2 each, df Turquoise Cinn, TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon
Image

df Turquoise Cinn, TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon
Image

A very early discoverer that Bastiaan was wrong.
Image

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:01 am

Ben, you are cheating to save time! :lol:

But, there is an important point hidden in this little exercise. Who is going to guess it right first... :?:

Willy, when reading the original post again, you'll see that the intention is to guarantee it. The puzzle is that homozygous parblues should be identifiable right away. So the point is the same as sexing birds that will show you they are male/female after two summers. Because we'd like to know immediately and don't like waiting.

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:08 am

Johan :lol: I knew that was coming 8) :?

Test theory of Parblue's inheritance, %s & phenotypes along the way.

Did I win? :lol:
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:21 am

Ben, you got the obvious part, but not the "hidden gem". Not yet, but I have full confidence you'll get it with just a tiny bit more encouragement. :wink:

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Recio » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:34 am

Johan S wrote:Ben, you are cheating to save time! :lol:

But, there is an important point hidden in this little exercise. Who is going to guess it right first... :?:
Let's try.
How do you know that at the third step, both green birds are for sure split for the same parblue? To know it you must have first identified all different heteroallelic BlueParblue combinations in their previous offspring. This is the same than saying that the identification of each Parblue morphotype (saphire, indigo, turquoise, others ... for sure) must be made in the heterozygous condition ... It reminds me something :wink:

Regards

Recio

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by trabots » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:44 am

The puzzle is that homozygous parblues should be identifiable right away
By the time you need to pair them up for breeding you will know whether df Parblue or not. If this is just an exercise well have fun. If I need a df Parblue I just grab one after its second moult and breed 100% ParblueBlues.

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:47 am

Because ALL Parblue offspring will be Homozygous Parblues ;)
Fool-proof breeding !
It seems to be an exercise, if i'd have known from the start i wouldn't have cheated :lol:
Johan did i Win? :lol: or did i go too much to the left wing? :cry:

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:43 am

Recio wrote:It reminds me something :wink:
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate. :idea:

And Ben... Not far enough out on the left wing yet. There is some more room to explore! :lol:

I haven't seen the response I have been looking for. Winning bid still out. But Ben is closer than Recio, I think. My intention never was to breed the same parblues. Homozygous is good enough. :)

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by madas » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:57 am

Use a second parblue resp. third parblue (if normal blue count as parblue). :D

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prodigy
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by prodigy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:50 am

has anyone got a picture of a df Turquoise, TurquoiseBlue, indigo and df Indigo all in the same picture ?

trabots
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by trabots » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:11 pm

df Turquoise, IndigoBlue, TurquoiseBlue

Image

df Indigo 15mo

Image

Johan S
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:51 am

Hi Willy,

I have not seen a mature DF indigo cock. Does the same phenotypic difference still hold, i.e. no psittacin in the neck ring (i.e. only black and white)?

PS: We can bash one another in the other topic, this is a friendly question simply to learn, no harm meant. :D

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by trabots » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:20 pm

I have not seen a mature DF indigo cock. Does the same phenotypic difference still hold, i.e. no psittacin in the neck ring (i.e. only black and white)?
My mature df Indigo cock was killed by a hawk, major set back. It had a small amount of colour in the neck ring. Why should it not? The hen is all I have for now.

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:07 pm

trabots wrote:
I have not seen a mature DF indigo cock. Does the same phenotypic difference still hold, i.e. no psittacin in the neck ring (i.e. only black and white)?
My mature df Indigo cock was killed by a hawk, major set back. It had a small amount of colour in the neck ring. Why should it not? The hen is all I have for now.
Damn, that's a pity. I didn't say it shouldn't have colour in the neckring. I asked if it did or not, that's all.

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:10 pm

Johan,

Can you tell us what is the hidden Gem??
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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:05 am

Hi Ben, for me there are two. :D

#1 Love green, green is your friend

The very first thing to realise is that disregarding the green series is a mistake (I mentioned "mistakes of the past", I will elaborate shortly). I fully agree it sounds completely counter intuitive to breed parblues in green where the phenotype is hidden, rather than blue, but I don't know of a better way to guarantee the homozygous result. The infamous words of Willy, "DF or shut up and breed one already" applies 100% here. A mutation is best expressed in the homozygous form, not as an hetero-allele.

Hold on to your seats folks, for the rest of the day I will be supporting the case of emerald being a parblue. Sorry Recio! :D And Willy's notation of "df" emerald for homozygous form. Willy, see it as my way of apologising for getting under your skin and a peace offering. :)

#2 Improving your parblue yield, adding Step 4

Let's be honest, we want to breed as many as possible birds carrying the emerald gene. Looking back, after steps 1 - 3 we are now sitting with a selection of green / emerald and and a few df emerald birds (or any parblue). Take special note that in step 2 we need to add genetic diversity, so do your best to source "test" blue birds from different sources. The only reason for these birds are to eliminate the uncertainty caused by the split blue or parblue, and to add some new genetic diversity. Also, feel free to go wild with other mutations like cleartail, CHF, pied, or even opaline and harlequin, etc, as long as they are blue.

Step 4: Pairing your green / parblue (emerald) x df parblue (emerald). The result, 50% guaranteed df parblues (emeralds)! That is a high yield, the best possible without breeding df emerald x df emerald.

You will lose out in the first years to the EmeraldBlue x blue breeders, but with the vast amount of df emeralds produced in step 4 you will soon catch up. And don't forget the fact that your test in step 1 will also result in your own fair share of heterozygous emerald offspring in the blue series, which we "rejected" to remain in the green series when going to step 2.

Why is this important? Because I find it very hard to believe that there are only two identified df emeralds in Oz (and of those two, one has been exported). Not after all these years. There are probably more, so is the EmeraldBlue and df Emerald phenotype close enough to cause problems?

The mistakes of the past. The first emerald is reported to be a DF bird. It was immediately thought that it is a parblue, then bred to blue. The very first emerald should, after that first season, have been paired to a green / blue bird (unless you have a pure green bird). ALL green offspring would be split emerald, leaving a direct path to step 4. With this approach, df emerald would have been common as soon as 2000 to 2005. Now, at 2013, they are still rare.

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by trabots » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:27 am

Bravo Johan. Apology accepted. There is no place for sarcasm on this forum and I am allergic to it. Ask Recio. I was guilty of it sometimes on Terry's forum but I was truly exasperated at the posts by the Mad Cow and the Caveman and yet silence from Terry who could have stifled it, not with reprimands but with his genetic knowledge. That also is a problem I currently have, the people who know say silent or throw hummingbird guano. :P

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Recio » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:35 am

Believe me Willy, I am quite sarcastic and even caustic ... but only in Spanish. To be sarcastic you need to "dominate" the language. That's the reason you will never find me sarcastic in English ... and if you think that I have been sarcastic anytime ... that's because I did not find the rigth words to express myself or because the sarcasme was in the reader's eyes and not in the writter's words.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by Johan S » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:46 am

trabots wrote:Bravo Johan. Apology accepted. There is no place for sarcasm on this forum and I am allergic to it. Ask Recio. I was guilty of it sometimes on Terry's forum but I was truly exasperated at the posts by the Mad Cow and the Caveman and yet silence from Terry who could have stifled it, not with reprimands but with his genetic knowledge. That also is a problem I currently have, the people who know say silent or throw hummingbird guano. :P
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Willy, you have enough experience with breeding different species to know that, by sticking to a breeding program as close as possible to the wildtype during the initial (and later stages) of establishing a mutation, we breed a better quality bird and a stronger line. Perhaps that is another advantage of this approach. And like we agree, DF trumps SF every single time.

Hopefully you'll agree that there is some logic to the green series emerald breeding program on the premise that emerald is a parblue. Esp. if we can yield the df emerald guaranteed, i.e. such great diversity of phenotype in the step 4 nest. Here I'm thinking that perhaps your patched emeralds have a stronger acting emerald gene (i.e. some degree of emerald variation occurs), thus crossing over some threshold and appearing patchy. So potentially later, we could run into problems like a df emerald from two poor genes expressing almost like a sf emerald from a strong gene (would this be patchy?). Probably something to discuss at some stage. :?:

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by trabots » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:04 pm

Hopefully you'll agree that there is some logic to the green series emerald breeding program on the premise that emerald is a parblue.
Johan, long before you have bred the Green /Emeralds for your breeding program I will have bred guaranteed df Emeralds simply by pairing EmeraldBlues. I have 100% confidence I will be able to see the df Emeralds either in the light of day or under UV as Deon has demonstrated. I agree with your logic.

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Re: Breeding a guaranteed homozygous parblue

Post by prodigy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:08 pm

Thanks for the Pic Willy its very helpful.

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