Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

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Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:40 pm



Hi All,

I have the 100% proof required to close the case of Emerald being a parblue mutation.

Pair:
Green CT/emerald X violet blue/CT

Offspring:
Violet Emerald/ct
Green/blue/ct

Breeder got the male as possible split emerald from J.F.
Breeder's name is Aaron Qld Aus
Willy knows this breeder and i will PM Willy with his contact number to ring him and confirm.


*** If any member of IRN Genetics website wants to talk directly with this breeder even from SA or Eu , PM me and i'l see what i can do.

Cheers
Ben

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:57 pm

Great news. The Green youngster would be split Emerald OR Blue then, not just Blue.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:06 am

trabots wrote:Great news. The Green youngster would be split Emerald OR Blue then, not just Blue.
But then... it wouldn't be a true parblue...
You're thinking of the reverse
parblue x green/blue

but the reverse does not work the same
green/parblue x blue
= all blue birds will be parblue all green /blue
right?

I would have bought the green young off him if it was also possible split emerald; he was willing to trade it
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by madas » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:33 am

Ring0Neck wrote:

Hi All,

I have the 100% proof required to close the case of Emerald being a parblue mutation.

Pair:
Green CT/emerald X violet blue/CT

Offspring:
Violet Emerald/ct
Green/blue/ct

Breeder got the male as possible split emerald from J.F.
Breeder's name is Aaron Qld Aus
Willy knows this breeder and i will PM Willy with his contact number to ring him and confirm.


*** If any member of IRN Genetics website wants to talk directly with this breeder even from SA or Eu , PM me and i'l see what i can do.

Cheers
Ben

Are you sure Ben? What if the father is a CT Emerald Green /Blue???
Then you can still get VioletBlue /CT and Green /CT /Blue youngsters.

Your thoughts?

BTW: two offspring birds prove nothing. My opinion. :(

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:48 am

The Green youngster would be split Emerald OR Blue then, not just Blue.
Wrong Willy, Ben is right, if the young received an Emerald gene it would combine with the for sure Blue gene = EmeraldBlue not /Emerald

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:52 am

madas wrote: Are you sure Ben? What if the father is a CT Emerald Green /Blue???
Then you can still get VioletBlue /CT and Green /CT /Blue youngsters.

Your thoughts?

BTW: two offspring birds prove nothing. My opinion. :(
Stefan,

Yes, I'm sure. Unless emerald green is not visible to naked eye, which i highly doubt.

I spoke to Aaron on the phone just before posting the news.
Aaron told me the parents of the /emerald, i was too excited to remember but it was emerald ct or split ct x green violet ct or split ct
I know the breeder he acquired the /emerald it's John Friskie ( he got it as poss /emerald) . J F was the first in OZ in partnership with J E to have the violet. he owns that emerald opaline/ct chick that i posted pics of, I believe he can identify an emerald especially in Cleartail where emerald phenotype is obvious.

I knew about the possible split before he bred the chick,
I have seen the emerald violet in fact i took pics of him before i knew it came from the /emerald.
(Aaron uses same handraiser/breeder as myself to hand feed our chicks that we pull, that's where the violet emerald chick was)

I hope that Willy will ask any other relevant questions needed to satisfy conclusion.

I asked Aaron for a photo of the parents but i doubt he will run to take it, for him it does not mean much.

** I'm going through my pics and i will post the pics of the emerald violetblue young from the /emerald.

We have 2 pairs and their results:
emerald x green resulting in a green bird possible split emerald
then
/emerald x blue resulting in visual emeraldblue
bred by 2 reputable breeders with records that can be checked
(ignored violet & other mutations)


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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by bennjamin » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:33 am

This is good news.


"he owns that emerald opaline/ct chick that i posted pics of,"

Where is the pic of this bird Ben ?

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:41 am

Molossus,

If he does not bother to take the pic, i will go to take photos myself.
He might do the photo for Willy if he asks, he wants me to go visit him one weekend.
So pics will be coming of the parents.

Reason i'm happy is that we have 2 breeders that are contactable
most breeders in OZ know JF and they can ring in and ask Qs etc. JF knows his genetics, he told Aaron: all blue series birds will be emeraldblue from your /.
I know these breeders since 2008
** :idea: International calling nowadays is cheap.
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by sheyd » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:15 am

Thanks for the update Ben

I must say I am disappointed- although if correct then it's as I suspected.
I'd love for the /Emerald hen to be photographed with a Wildtype and with a tail comparison just 'to see'.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:41 am

Shey,

the split emerald is in fact a 2 y old male ;) i also assumed was a hen while talking to Aaron and he corrected me.
I'm dissapointed too. I would have preferred Emerald to be a non parblue mutation as well. :cry:
I was looking forward to green series emeralds.
At the end of the day, facts stand wishes less so.


emerald violetblue young
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255747.JPG

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255755.JPG

benjamin
pic of the emerald opaline (could also be turquoise)/ct
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255820.JPG
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:58 am

I'd love for the /Emerald hen to be photographed with a Wildtype and with a tail comparison just 'to see'.
The /Emerald hen is a CHCT according to Ben, so a tail comparison is invalid.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:04 am

the split emerald is in fact a 2 y old male,

yes CT

I'd like someone else other then myself to confirm the findings.

Shey, perhaps you want to come down for a drive? near the airport.

I have ph numbers feel free anyone wishing to confirm or visit the breeder/s

Cheers
Ben
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Kappa » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:15 am

Hi Ben,

These results may have more of an impact than you might expect. Consider the idea that you posted in your deep blue thread. The idea that deep greens are infact green/deep, and why their phenotype is the same, or exceptionally close, to that of a wild type green.

I still don't have any clearly identifiable characteristics ( apart from the lighter blue in the tail of my deep green which doesn't prove much) other than just knowing that they are deep.

Interestingly enough my df deep green chick shows almost no blue in its tail, it's a darker all green bird.
Photo without flash
Image

Photo with flash
Image

Sf deeps only seem to become visible, as with what we now know with the emerald, when we are dealing with blue series birds.

This then leads us to one of your other statements that questions if deep is actually another parblue variant. So it seems that there is more investigating to be done.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:28 am

Thanks Kappa, well, let's play :lol: I"m up for it.

Interestingly enough myself and Willy on totally different ocassions have said
" I wonder if Deep has s-thing to do with Emerald" or s-thing similar.
**Both mutations came from J Smith at very similar time :idea:

Well.
I've just done a test breeding emerald grey x deepblue
read here:
http://ringneck-genetics.com/index.php/ ... ue-thread4
One grey bird, one emerald grey & a deep blue & a blue.
i see no unusual coloring except ... the grey emerald looks very clear emerald , nicer then my 1 y old grey emerald hen.
it is very likely 50% chance that i did not get an emerald deep grey just an emerald grey
so more testing required to conclude anything.
Willy has deep emeralds
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Recio » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:38 am

madas wrote: Are you sure Ben? What if the father is a CT Emerald Green /Blue???
Then you can still get VioletBlue /CT and Green /CT /Blue youngsters.

Your thoughts?

BTW: two offspring birds prove nothing. My opinion. :(
Hi Ben,

I agree with Madas, specially keeping in mind that, as we have pointed recently, CTCH could be a structural mutation decreasing the perception of psittacins in the belly. I have a Green Dark CTCH male which does not show any brigthness, even not the "normal" head brigthness of wild birds. This makes me think that CTCH and Emerald could be acting on the same feather structure and, thus, Emerald could be masked in the bird supossed to be Split Emerald. It would be great to have in the same pic a Green CTCH male and the bird supossed to be Green CTCH/Emerald, to look for subtle differences whenever the masking is not 100%.

Thank you for your report Ben and, please, try to get those pics.

Regards

Recio
Last edited by Recio on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:56 am

Hi Recio,

We'll get the pics.

I know what you mean guys. I'd feel the same.
Hence me wanting someone else to confirm findings and possibly take pics.

I'd like to tempt Shey to make the 4h trip
Shey: see PM
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:50 am

molossus wrote:Ben I am with Madas here. I would like to see a pic of the green / emerald parent bird to see if there isnt a subtle difference separating the emerald green from normal green irns.
can the breeder help with this?
Ben, I'd also like to see some pics, please. I'm still not 100% convinced, having seen Lee's alexandrines. If he didn't point out the subtle differences, I would have assumed they are normal greens.

Also, I'd like to point out that we should keep in mind that a mutation masked in green series and visible in blue isn't necessarily a parblue. For it to be a parblue, it needs to happen at the blue locus specifically.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by prodigy » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:52 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Shey,

the split emerald is in fact a 2 y old male ;) i also assumed was a hen while talking to Aaron and he corrected me.
I'm dissapointed too. I would have preferred Emerald to be a non parblue mutation as well. :cry:
I was looking forward to green series emeralds.
At the end of the day, facts stand wishes less so.


emerald violetblue young
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255747.JPG

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255755.JPG

benjamin
pic of the emerald opaline (could also be turquoise)/ct
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255820.JPG
Me thinks DF Turquoise Opaline

Image

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:55 pm

Also, I'd like to point out that we should keep in mind that a mutation masked in green series and visible in blue isn't necessarily a parblue. For it to be a parblue, it needs to happen at the blue locus specifically.
Johan, what heterozygous mutations which are masked in Green series but only visible in Blue series which are not Parblues?

What heterozygous mutations which are masked in Green series are not recessive?

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:14 pm

Willy, it is a statement to provoke some new school thinking. We are still asking many questions of emerald and deep in green series. They could potentially be examples. There could be mutations we have not identified because of old school thinking which was specifically over looked because of this. There could be an example in violet strains. We have seen the potential "brilliant" blues. But not in green. I have heard of a very interesting Hawaiian azure blue series. Ben mentions a PR modifier. Babu has the azure in blue, again not green. With or without an example, if it can be imagined, it could be possible. If one can't imagine it, identifying it would be missed, though. The original point I'm making is that the complete test of a parblue isn't whether it is recessive to green only, but whether it is an allele of blue. This in turn makes it recessive to green, if a true allele.

Looking at it from another way, take SL ino and pallid. We know they inherit sex linked recessive. And pallid is dominant over SL ino. They are alleles because they are incomplete dominant. The true test of their allelic interaction is NOT because they are sex linked recessive (a limited analogy to recessive to green). Otherwise we could confuse cinnamon and opaline as well, since they are sex linked recessive as well. Not even to mention SL dominant edged. Very misunderstood mutation. The true test of allelic interaction here lies in breeding females from a pallidino cock and breeding only pallid and ino hens.

So why are we looking for emerald in the green series if it isn't a true test of a parblue??? If it is recessive, i. e green/emerald, we have proved nothing yet. We have to proceed to Mike's emerald turquoise example, although after some thought I'd rather do emerald indigo. However, if the green series bird shows a new emerald green phenotype not masked, we are sure more is at play with this dominant expression. This looks plausible from alexandrine examples.

You are 100% correct, the mutation not visible in the wildtype is recessive. Exactly like parblues. No such thing as a DF turquoise, so you should correct that incorrect usage as frequently as possible. :wink: Another important question. What is the definition of the threshold for when a mutation is not visible (dominant) anymore and invisible (recessive)? We have some examples where recessive mutations show in heterozygous birds.

Sorry for the long message, feeling creative tonight.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:19 pm

No such thing as a DF turquoise, so you should correct that incorrect usage as frequently as possible. :wink:
Wink or otherwise Johan, I declared long ago that I would use lower case "df" for homozygous Parblues. they are still factors after all. Everyone then knows what I am talking about because most including you use the 'proper' terminology for a homozygous Parblue for the heteroallele with Blue. As in:
So why are we looking for emerald in the green
Should be "looking for Emerald"
We have to proceed to Mike's emerald turquoise example, although after some thought I'd rather do emerald indigo.
While you are technically correct about my use of 'df' according to the International Naming System devised by Terry et al, you are wrong by not using capitals and by not joining the the names of the alleles together. "Mike's EmeraldTurquoise" and "I'd rather do EmeraldIndigo" are the correct usage. So I purposely defy the INS to be understood by all and you not on purpose defy the INS in two ways which are far more confusing then my purposeful gaffe.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by sheyd » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:06 pm

Hi Ben, yes got your pm- would love to make it down, but am unable to at this stage.

Hi Lee, are you able to provide this thread with some pictures of your Emerald Green and Wildtype Alexandrines for us to observe/compare?

cheers

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:03 pm

trabots wrote:
No such thing as a DF turquoise, so you should correct that incorrect usage as frequently as possible. :wink:
Wink or otherwise Johan, I declared long ago that I would use lower case "df" for homozygous Parblues. they are still factors after all. Everyone then knows what I am talking about because most including you use the 'proper' terminology for a homozygous Parblue for the heteroallele with Blue. As in:
So why are we looking for emerald in the green
Should be "looking for Emerald"
We have to proceed to Mike's emerald turquoise example, although after some thought I'd rather do emerald indigo.
While you are technically correct about my use of 'df' according to the International Naming System devised by Terry et al, you are wrong by not using capitals and by not joining the the names of the alleles together. "Mike's EmeraldTurquoise" and "I'd rather do EmeraldIndigo" are the correct usage. So I purposely defy the INS to be understood by all and you not on purpose defy the INS in two ways which are far more confusing then my purposeful gaffe.
Well done on correcting me so graciously and missing the actual point of the post where I went through a lot of effort to attempt to answer your questions. I assume your questions have been answered.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:04 pm

molossus wrote:will do Shey. will try to take some pics today.
Didn't I take some? :)

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:16 pm

Well done on correcting me so graciously and missing the actual point of the post where I went through a lot of effort to attempt to answer your questions. I assume your questions have been answered.
Johan, my questions were just answered by theoretical possibilities but no birds on the perch. I prefer to deal with what we have in front of us in which case any heterozygous mutation which is hidden in Green series but visible in Blue series is most likely Parblue, UNLESS a contrary example is produced. After a couple of centuries now of mutation breeding of parrots no such example has occurred.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:51 pm

trabots wrote:
Well done on correcting me so graciously and missing the actual point of the post where I went through a lot of effort to attempt to answer your questions. I assume your questions have been answered.
Johan, my questions were just answered by theoretical possibilities but no birds on the perch. I prefer to deal with what we have in front of us in which case any heterozygous mutation which is hidden in Green series but visible in Blue series is most likely Parblue, UNLESS a contrary example is produced. After a couple of centuries now of mutation breeding of parrots no such example has occurred.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. That should read "... has been been successfully identified." There is a very big difference.

Take the misty mutation. In green it is almost impossible to identify, it is (almost?) as good as masked until we start taking pictures with a flash or look at them in very specific light conditions. And trust me, even the most experienced misty breeders in SA use this trick. In blue it is by no means obvious, but certainly more so. So where do we draw the line with expressivity? Should tricks be allowed to make recessive mutations dominant.

Further to the bird on the perch example, let's take gravity. I bet you have never seen that either. But both you and the bird knows it exists. You've never seen an electron, yet they allow us to communicate like this. In the absences of seeing the bird on the perch, one needs to have some faith that things exist that we haven't seen (yet). It makes the hobby much more exciting.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:33 am

Hi All
I learned my avian genetics from formulae and I am still not all that comfortable with the Terry Martin word system so I may need correcting and I will be happy to learn from being corrected. Nonetheless here goes.
I can't envision how Ben's result is other than proof that emerald is a par blue mutation. With cleartail on one side and blue on the other surely the green chick must be split cleartail and split blue as he states and not relevant to emerald ID.
On the other hand, the Violet EmeraldBlue split cleartail chick must surely be a par blue because it can only have one blue gene just like the green chick. I don't see how it could be a Violet Blue SF Emerald because it can't have 2 blue genes from that pairing, unless the father is a Green Cleartail SF Emerald split blue rather than a Green Cleartail split emerald.
Can you tell from his history if he is possibly split blue and does he show any slight sign of emerald?
Finally, Ben, am I making any sense?
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:47 am

Hi Mike,

You lost me here...
I don't see how it could be a Violet Blue SF Emerald because it can't have 2 blue genes from that pairing, unless the father is a Green Cleartail SF Emerald split blue rather than a Green Cleartail split emerald.
Can you tell from his history if he is possibly split blue and does he show any slight sign of emerald?...

If you replace Emerald with any Parblue it makes sense, therefore it'll work for Emerald, Turquoise & Indigo

If you have:
green Cleartail/Parblue X violetblue / Cleartail
offspring is
1.0 green cleartail /blue
1.0 green /blue cleartail
1.0 green violet(sf) cleartail /blue
1.0 green violet(sf) /blue cleartail
1.0 (parblue)Blue cleartail
1.0 (parblue)Blue /cleartail
1.0 (parblue)Blue violet(sf) cleartail
1.0 (parblue)Blue violet(sf) /cleartail


PS: These are not my results/birds. this pairing was done by a local breeder Aaron and split bird comes from JF which i also know.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by sheyd » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:42 pm

molossus wrote:will do Shey. will try to take some pics today.
That'd be great- when you can.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:01 pm

Hi Ben

I will try to explain what I am on about. You may need to be a bit patient because firstly I may simply be wrong and secondly I may not be understanding properly what people are imagining as the alternative to an EmeraldBlue as a result of emerald being a par blue mutation. Also, I will need to use the formulae format a bit because I understand it much better than the Terry Martin word format where I can get lost and misinform people without realizing I'm doing so.

I'll start with my pair that I think are an EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen and a Dark Violet Blue Cleartail cock to show you how my view of the genetics works. It will be very long winded but, having gone through it, I will address my concerns with your pairing quite quickly in the last few paragraphs.

In my pairing, we can ignore the Violet and Dark genes because they have no impact on whether or not emerald is a par blue mutation, they just made my life difficult genetically and beautifully interesting phenetically in sorting out the true colours of the chicks.

As I understand it, my hen's phenotype can be caused either by EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail (which is what I believe is most likely) or SF Emerald Blue Cleartail (which I hope is the correct way of expressing it). In the formula format, but using words rather than symbols, those two options would be expressed as emerald/turquoise(at the blue locus); cleartail/cleartail (at the cleartail locus) and blue/blue (at the blue locus); cleartail/cleartail (at the cleartail locus); Emerald/Wildtype ( at a third locus that I'll call the emerald locus).

If you pair the hen with a Blue Cleartail and she is a par blue you can ignore everything except the blue locus because all chicks will be cleartails. In this situation, the formula format equation is very simple with emerald/turquoise on one side from the hen and blue/blue on the other from the cock bird. Possible outcomes in chicks can only be emerald/blue or turquoise/blue at the blue locus, or what I think we would call EmeraldBlue and TurquoiseBlue in the word format

On the other hand, if you make the same pairing but the hen is not a par blue but rather Emerald/Wildtype(at the emerald locus); turquoise/blue(at the blue locus); cleartail/cleartail(at the cleartail locus) then things get slightly more complicated. All chicks will still be cleartails and that can still be ignored, but now we have Emerald/Wildtype; turquoise/blue on one side and blue/blue; Wildtype/Wildtype on the other. Possible outcomes in chicks have therefore doubled in number and can be [Emerald/Wildtype;turquoise/blue], [Emerald/Wildtype; blue/blue], [Wildtype/Wildtype; turquoise/blue] or [Wildtype/Wildtype; blue/blue] or what I think we would call in the word format Emerald TurquoiseBlue, Emerald Blue, Turquoise Blue and Blue.

The net result is that, if any of the chicks are Emerald TurquoiseBlue or Blue, then emerald cannot be a par blue gene. As there were 5 EmeraldBlue chicks in various combinations of violet and cobalt and 2 TurquoiseBlue chicks in violet, the par blue hypothesis was strongly supported but not proven beyond doubt.

If I take the same approach to your pairing of a Green Cleartail split emerald cock to a Blue split cleartail hen we can again ignore the cleartail gene because it doesn't make any difference to whether or not emerald is a par blue gene.

If we look at what I suspect as being the Violet EmeraldBlue chick, its phenotype can theoretically actually arise from either Violet/Wildtype; emerald/blue if emerald is a par blue mutation, or Violet/Wildtype; Emerald/Wildtype; blue/blue if emerald is not a par blue mutation. I'm not sure how I should express that in the word format, maybe the chick can be either Violet EmeraldBlue or Violet Emerald Blue, depending on whether or not emerald is a par blue gene.

As it stands Ben, I think you are assuming from the start that emerald is a par blue mutation and that the cock bird is not split for blue because, if emerald is a par blue mutation, the cock would then express itself as an EmeraldBlue phenotype . However, if emerald is not a par blue mutation, the cock could theoretically be a Green Cleartail split emerald split blue and the chick could be a Violet Emerald Blue split cleartail. Whilst I very much doubt that this is the case, I believe that the breeding outcome of the pairing can't constitute absolute proof that emerald is a par blue gene unless you can establish with certainty, from breeding records rather than phenotype, that the cock is not split for blue.

Kind regards
Mike

PS Please someone who understands avian genetics better than me (there should be plenty of you on the forum) explain to me where I have gone wrong if I'm talking rubbish to save me from doing it again.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:55 pm

Hi Mike,


Great work !
I think would have been easier to follow to break it into 2 paragraphs, one with assumption of being parblue & one as
an SL mutation or Recessive?? as it can not be dominant to wildtype because we are talking splits here.
Again we can safely eliminate SexLinked as we well know we get both sexes from any 1 emerald bird
i see no reason to reason why Emerald is not a Parblue.


As it stands Ben, I think you are assuming from the start that emerald is a par blue mutation .... I believe that the breeding outcome of the pairing can't constitute absolute proof that emerald is a par blue gene unless you can establish with certainty, from breeding records rather than phenotype, that the cock is not split for blue.


Yes i assume Parblue

Yes, Breeding outcome does not constitute with certainty but it matches Parblue's
although only 2 chicks were bred thus far no blue birds were bred, again pointing to Parblue.

So how could Emerald based on these results pointing exactly to Parblue yet not be Parblue?
Unless Emerald is entirely unique mutation and a new model of how it's gen. inheritance works ... matching Parblue?!.



Perhaps Recio & others will chip in and comment on your work.

I will read it again and perhaps add more if needed.

Ben

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:43 am

Mikesringnecks wrote:I believe that the breeding outcome of the pairing can't constitute absolute proof that emerald is a par blue gene unless you can establish with certainty, from breeding records rather than phenotype, that the cock is not split for blue.
This is a very important point that I have forgotten to consider for a parblue. If emerald is indeed a parblue, the green / emerald will produce 100% EmeraldBlue in blue series. If emerald is dominant, the green emerald / blue could produce blue birds as well. That could be a key pointer to look out for. Thanks for reminding me of that, Mike.

Getting back to the theories, Mike it looks to me like you have your head wrapped rather well around this. The only thing to elaborate on is that emerald could be recessive or dominant to the wildtype. If dominant, it will not be a parblue. This opposing view, based on alexandrines is that emerald is a dominant mutation, with low expressivity in the green series (read that as "almost" recessive). If recessive, it could be a parblue if interacting with the blue locus in an allelic manner, or something very different and unique if recessive yet not an allele of blue (which is the possibility why I don't think the case is closed yet).

Your breeding results are certainly bringing us closer to concluding that emerald is a parblue, and we should be able to say with 95+% certainty if you have a good season in 2014.

You are adding much value to the forum. Thank you so much! :D

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:40 am

Hi Ben
Like you, I am one of those that think emerald is most likely to prove to be a par blue. However, I think those who really believe emerald might not be a par blue are inclined to see it as a "semi dominant" gene with very low penentrance in the green series (almost none just like Johan said above ) but clearly dominant over blue series genes.
So, when I was trying to explain my thinking to you, I was treating it as a semi dominant gene. Amongst other things, that would mean that there would be some evidence of its existence, however insignificant, visible in your Green Cleartail SF Emerald cock bird (which is what he would be if emerald is not a par blue gene).
Having said that, there are to my mind, still two routes to using your result to prove what we believe IE that emerald is a par blue. We can try comparing the cock bird very carefully to a Green Cleartail that is known not to be carrying an emerald gene to see if we can see any indication of emerald penetrance, and we can trace his history to see if we can establish with absolute certainty that he cannot be split for blue.
In some ways, the second course of action is potentially the more powerful because, if he is definitely not split for blue, I think the chick must be a Violet EmeraldBlue split cleartail because it can only inherit a single blue gene from the mother and that gene must have teamed up with the one available emerald gene from the father to produce the chick's phenotype.
Even then, there are probably still going to be some potential question marks that the geneticists among us will surely identify, but such things are well beyond my level of avian genetic understanding.
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:32 am

Great that you are a thinker Mike, like Ben said, great to have you aboard. :idea: What we keep forgetting is that the homozygous Blue mutation on its own removes ALL psitticins in each and every other mutation that we know of. Why then if Emerald is dominant does this not happen? A SF Emerald Blue or a DF Emerald Blue clearly have psitticins present. Why would Blue not remove these psitticins in this mutation only? If one wants to argue that what we call 'Emerald' is in fact a SF Emerald /Blue then we already have the Green series bird do we not? Then surely there will be a Blue series Emerald having been bred before, where is it? This is a no brainer I reckon and I kick myself for not considering this logic before. :(

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:33 am



Mike, Great brainstorming excercise .

Some old news, but it seems we need to refresh our memory.

Aqua = Emerald as we are well aware Aqua is an established mutation in other species of birds and confirmed being a Parblue mutation.

Take Lovebirds for example, (i read about it as i have little experience with Lovebirds)

Funny thing Blue
We seem to be totally dependent on it... yet peach face lovebirds have no blue!

This i find rather interesting and should give us something to think about (Quote refers to Lovebirds):
Parblue mutations are recessive, this means they must be passed from both parents to be visible. It’s important to note that aqua and turquoise are separate mutations and to know what happens when you cross them. That’s where the AquaTurquoise comes in, this is a parblue bird that received the aqua trait from one parent and the turquoise trait from the other. The bird is neither aqua nor turquoise but something in between, it is in fact SPLIT for both the aqua and turquoise mutations. A pairing between an aqua lovebird and a turquoise lovebird will result in all AquaTurquoise birds.
In the aqua mutation, there will be approximately a 50% reduction in psittacin over the whole bird....



Johan:
I think an old reply of Madas on Yahoo site still stands or something has changed since?

because all your birds are split for Aqua the whole "aqua" looking offspring is homozygous (has two aqua gens) for that mutation. So if you breed such a bird to a blue or Albino all the chicks among the offspring should carry one aqua gen. Means what: Aqua x Blue or Blue x Aqua will give you 100% AquaBlue; Aqua x Albino will give you 50% AquaBlue /Ino males and 50% AquaBlue females; and Albino x Aqua should give you 50% AquaBlue /Ino males and 50% CremeIno females. So best pair is the last one. But don't forget to combine with rec. grey or dominant grey. Could look nice as well.

greetings.

S. Adam

That should explain the dominant like breeding results of Alexs aqua, or i'm i missing something?

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:23 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
We seem to be totally dependent on it... yet peach face lovebirds have no blue!

Johan:
I think an old reply of Madas on Yahoo site still stands or something has changed since?

because all your birds are split for Aqua the whole "aqua" looking offspring is homozygous (has two aqua gens) for that mutation. So if you breed such a bird to a blue or Albino all the chicks among the offspring should carry one aqua gen. Means what: Aqua x Blue or Blue x Aqua will give you 100% AquaBlue; Aqua x Albino will give you 50% AquaBlue /Ino males and 50% AquaBlue females; and Albino x Aqua should give you 50% AquaBlue /Ino males and 50% CremeIno females. So best pair is the last one. But don't forget to combine with rec. grey or dominant grey. Could look nice as well.

greetings.

S. Adam

That should explain the dominant like breeding results of Alexs aqua, or i'm i missing something?

Hi Ben,

interestingly enough, the peach faced lovebird fraternity seems to cope fairly well without blue and have selectively bred parblue to look very close to completely blue at this stage.

As to the post of Madas, I'm not sure exactly what you mean how it explains dominant breeding. Looks like parblue breeding to me. :?:

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:27 pm

Molussus, the 'Emerald' Alex is very close in phenotype to a normal. I have said this before IMO this mutation is not the same as Emerald in IRNs as in that species there is a significant difference in phenotype.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:36 pm

Great that you are a thinker Mike, like Ben said, great to have you aboard. :idea: What we keep forgetting is that the homozygous Blue mutation on its own removes ALL psitticins in each and every other mutation that we know of. Why then if Emerald is dominant does this not happen? A SF Emerald Blue or a DF Emerald Blue clearly have psitticins present. Why would Blue not remove these psitticins in this mutation only? If one wants to argue that what we call 'Emerald' is in fact a SF Emerald /Blue then we already have the Green series bird do we not? Then surely there will be a Blue series Emerald having been bred before, where is it? This is a no brainer I reckon and I kick myself for not considering this logic before. :(
Come on people, what is wrong with this simple logic?

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by sheyd » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:27 pm

Thanks Lee
Looks like one is maybe a tad lighter with a slightly different cast over the overall colour-?

Willy could you please elaborate on why you think that the Alex and IRN Emerald mutations are different- of images I have seen, I saw no notable differences (though I haven't seen the two directly compared so may play a role)?

Looking forward to pics of the OP CT cock

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:41 pm

Willy could you please elaborate on why you think that the Alex and IRN Emerald mutations are different- of images I have seen, I saw no notable differences? To me they were just like say comparing a Wildtype Alex and IRN together- looking very much the same in colour.
That is my point, the Alex and IRN are very similar in colour. The images of Molussus' 'Emerald' Alex are nothing like an EmeraldBlue IRN.
If the wildtypes were significantly different then I would not have made this opinion. The images just posted show nothing like the blue green shown by the EmeraldBlue IRN. If Molussus had posted the images with a 'guess what these are'? No way would anyone have guessed 'Emerald'. How about a side by side image of the 'Emerald' Alex and EmeraldBlue IRN Molussus? It would do your program a lot of good.

Just to remind, now go back to Molussus' image below.
Image

Image

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:39 pm

Hi Ben
I can see no fault in Willy's logic saying that your Violet EmeraldBlue split cleartail chick could not be a Violet SF Emerald Blue split cleartail because blue, as a null mutation, would have removed all the yellow pigment. It didn't occur to me when I was thinking about the genetic possibilities for that phenotype so you have my sincere apologies. I now can't see why your proof of the par blue hypothesis is not good.
Can anyone else come up with a valid way of getting the Violet EmeraldBlue split cleartail phenotype from Ben's pairing other than via the par blue hypothesis?
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:56 pm

Johan,
As to the post of Madas, I'm not sure exactly what you mean how it explains dominant breeding. Looks like parblue breeding to me.


That's what i am saying, Parblue.
His explanation explains the breeding results of Alex's . Why is it that now we think it inherits dominantly?


Breeding results confirming Parblue for Emerald IRN should not have been such a shock since all breeders know this already.
It would have been a shock if dominant & then i would have expected lots of questions and double checking.
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by sheyd » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:43 pm

trabots wrote: That is my point, the Alex and IRN are very similar in colour. The images of Molussus' 'Emerald' Alex are nothing like an EmeraldBlue IRN.

Just to remind, now go back to Molussus' image below.
Image
That was my point- I have seen pics of Emerald Alex's just like this- I honestly don't see a difference between the two species. I do think we should look very closely at the bird in question.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by trabots » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:01 am

To me the pic of the emerald cock IRN posted by you earlier is a Blue Emerald
Molussus, the image I have posted of an EmeraldBlue has obvious psitticin in its feathers. Yes or no? If yes it cannot be an Emerald Blue as Blue by definition removes all psitticins. If there is a Green Emerald in Alex then Molussus' Emerald mutation has to be a different mutation to the Emerald IRN. I sure would like to see an image of a Blue Emerald Alex, is there one?
I have seen pics of Emerald Alex's just like this
Shey, I refer only to what Molussus has been posting. I certainly accept that there will be an Alex Emerald which is Parblue like the IRNs, now or in the future and I accept the reality of what Molussus has. The IRN Emerald 100% is Parblue as per 2 sets of reliable breeding results and also this logic:
:idea: What we keep forgetting is that the homozygous Blue mutation on its own removes ALL psitticins in each and every other mutation that we know of. Why then if Emerald is dominant does this not happen? A 'SF Emerald Blue' or a 'DF Emerald Blue' clearly have psitticins present. Why would Blue not remove these psitticins in this mutation only? If one wants to argue that what we call 'Emerald' is in fact a SF Emerald /Blue then we already have the Green series bird do we not? Then surely there will be a Blue series Emerald having been bred before, where is it?

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Recio » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:32 am

trabots wrote:idea: What we keep forgetting is that the homozygous Blue mutation on its own removes ALL psitticins in each and every other mutation that we know of. Why then if Emerald is dominant does this not happen? A 'SF Emerald Blue' or a 'DF Emerald Blue' clearly have psitticins present. Why would Blue not remove these psitticins in this mutation only? If one wants to argue that what we call 'Emerald' is in fact a SF Emerald /Blue then we already have the Green series bird do we not? Then surely there will be a Blue series Emerald having been bred before, where is it?
If we apply the same reasoning to SL-ino and Cinnamon combos we could say: if Lutino removes every melanin ... how could a SL-ino Cinnamon show any melanin? Thus lutino and cinnamon must be alleles of the same gene and not different mutations. .... so things are not that easy.

The golden prove will be pairing a DF Emerald (either green or Blue series) to a wild IRN no split for Blue or Parblue. Till that time we are enjoying this amazing game of reasoning and deduction.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:58 am

Recio wrote:
If we apply the same reasoning to we could say: if Lutino removes every melanin ... how could a SL-ino Cinnamon show any melanin? Thus lutino and cinnamon must be alleles of the same gene and not different mutations. .... so things are not that easy.

The golden prove will be pairing a DF Emerald (either green or Blue series) to a wild IRN no split for Blue or Parblue. Till that time we are enjoying this amazing game of reasoning and deduction.

Regards

Recio

Hi Recio,

Whoever has a df Emerald i highly doubt will do this pairing. We're talking price of a car here to prove something IMO has been proven from other species to this season's split emerald and Mike's results.

Could you please run through & let's develop by pretending we've done the pairing
df or DF Emerald X Wildtype

We can assume we're going to have either of the 2 results
1. green/emerald
or
2. 100% emerald green birds
Could you develop what that proves for either case?

Neither result will prove anything re- reasoning: "SL-ino and Cinnamon combos".
so not exactly Golden.

It'd be pointelss waiting 5-7 years till this is done only to come up with another reason why it's not sufficient.

I fail to see a reason not to believe Emerald is Parblue based on Logic and Facts we already have & monitor next breeding season's results.

PS: Breeders of emerald in OZ have put turquoise to emerald because they knew from previous results they end up with more emeralds in the nest then otherwise, at least that's what the word is going around silently.
My emerald bred 1 emerald chick out of 4. Mike's? 5 out of 7, interesting.
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Johan S » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:20 am

trabots wrote:
To me the pic of the emerald cock IRN posted by you earlier is a Blue Emerald
Molussus, the image I have posted of an EmeraldBlue has obvious psitticin in its feathers. Yes or no? If yes it cannot be an Emerald Blue as Blue by definition removes all psitticins. If there is a Green Emerald in Alex then Molussus' Emerald mutation has to be a different mutation to the Emerald IRN. I sure would like to see an image of a Blue Emerald Alex, is there one?
Your question again, are there obvious psittacin in the feathers? And the answer. YES OR NO. We don't know for sure. No studies have been conducted on these feathers. There is obviously something causing yellow light to be reflected. You interpret that as psittacin, a pigment, which blue will remove as defined. 100% correct. But how can we be sure this is in fact caused by a pigment, when a structural mutation could lead to the same effect??? Some are merely questioning whether it could be a structural change (like violet, no pigments involved!). This will not be masked in the green series. Neither by the blue mutation, right? Ever seen a violet blue bird? Of course you have, you own plenty. Violet wasn't masked, as it isn't a pigment. Understand? I'm not saying either is right or wrong, merely asking that we concluded what emerald is by scientific means and not jump the gun by half baked experiments. Let's cross all the t's and dot the i's. Otherwise, we make the mistakes of the past. And who wants to live in the past, right?

Now, to show exactly what was meant, here is a blue series emerald in alexandrine. Obviously VERY different from the green series birds posted by Lee. And just as obvious not a normal blue alexandrine.
Image

Now, if somebody would be kind enough to post a proven green series heterozygous emerald bird in IRN to show that it is indeed recessive, that would be splendid.

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by madas » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:28 am

Recio wrote: how could a SL-ino Cinnamon show any melanin?
Don't Forget both Mutation are placed on the same Chromosom. So perhaps this is one reason. ;)

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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:33 am

Johan,

Briliant looking bird. However i'd say that's a homozygous Aqua. pinkish ring?

Now, if somebody would be kind enough to post a proven green series heterozygous emerald bird in IRN to show that it is indeed recessive, that would be splendid.

Working on it. Breeeder is only available on weekends.
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Re: Case Closed: Emerald = Parblue Mutation

Post by madas » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:36 am

And some more "blue series" emerald alexandrines:

ImageImage

comparison with emerald IRN (unfortunately not the best pics):

Image
Image
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