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Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

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Mikesringnecks
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Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:00 am

I have a young Turquoise Emerald Cleartail hen that I was intending to pair with a Blue Cleartail cock. However, I put her with a mixed flock in the off season and she chose a rising 2 year old Violet Cobalt Cleartail cock. I was not inclined to break them up because he was at least blue series which allowed me to address the Turquoise Emerald issue.
They have produced 7 chicks, all now with foster parents. My problem is one of identification, I am unsure about how to tell the difference between Violet Emerald, Cobalt Emerald and Violet Cobalt Emerald Cleartails and also between the same series with Turquoise in place of Emerald. So far I have 3 chicks with a fair bit of feather but the second 4 have only just been ringed so are still bald.
Can anyone help?

Johan S
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Johan S » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:31 am

Mike, thank you for you willingness to share your information to help us solve this mystery. It is much appreciated. Although I haven't bred emeralds, you could look towards a brighter yellow compared to a soft, very diluted milky yellow to distinguish between turquoise and emerald, specifically in the regions that will clear up for cleartails. I suspect the tail and belly regions might give clearer clues. Further to your concerns of identification, also keep in mind that a plain/normal blue, cobalt, violet or cobalt violet will also assist in providing answers. Perhaps you are more comfortable identifying those.

And of course, if you don't mind please share the photos with all of us. Many of us have been waiting for years for the answer to the question you are close to answering. :D

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:29 am

Mike,

Double clutching a young hen hmmm :shock: , most would be excited just to have a young hen go down once.
Looking forward to see pics of the young once they feather up.

You said:
I was not inclined to break them up because he was at least blue series which allowed me to address the Turquoise Emerald issue.


This "issue" was only seriously been talked about in the last week or so. I just hope you are fair dinkum and have what you say you do.

Cheers

I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know

Mikesringnecks
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:21 am

Johan S wrote:Mike, thank you for you willingness to share your information to help us solve this mystery. It is much appreciated. Although I haven't bred emeralds, you could look towards a brighter yellow compared to a soft, very diluted milky yellow to distinguish between turquoise and emerald, specifically in the regions that will clear up for cleartails. I suspect the tail and belly regions might give clearer clues. Further to your concerns of identification, also keep in mind that a plain/normal blue, cobalt, violet or cobalt violet will also assist in providing answers. Perhaps you are more comfortable identifying those.

And of course, if you don't mind please share the photos with all of us. Many of us have been waiting for years for the answer to the question you are close to answering. :D
Hi Johan, thanks for the response. I am happy to post a photo of them and I have just taken one but the site won't let me do it for some reason, something about urls. I am quite experienced with violets, cobalts and violet cobalts but i have never got them together with emerald cleartails before and the emerald seems to increase the difference between the 3 if my guess as to which is which is correct. Kind regards Mike

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:34 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Mike,

Double clutching a young hen hmmm :shock: , most would be excited just to have a young hen go down once.
Looking forward to see pics of the young once they feather up.

You said:
I was not inclined to break them up because he was at least blue series which allowed me to address the Turquoise Emerald issue.


This "issue" was only seriously been talked about in the last week or so. I just hope you are fair dinkum and have what you say you do.

Cheers

Hi RingOneck This was the first time I have had a 1 year old hen double clutch and it wasn't something I wanted her to do at all. I took the second clutch away as soon as it was laid and put 2 week old fertile eggs under her that she is now raising quite happily. Her second clutch of 4 is currently getting rings.
The first clutch comprised 3 chicks that I think are an emerald cleartail, a violet cleartail and a violet cobalt cleartail. I took a photo today and they are pretty well coloured up but I'm not sure about the phonetics because I've not bred emerald cleartails before.
I'm quite happy to post photos but the site doesn't seem to want me to do it, not sure what I'm doing wrong. I am fair dinkum about it, the parents are an early bred turquoise emerald cleartail hen that I bought from Victoria and a Violet Cobalt Cleartail cock that I bred a couple of years ago. Kind regards Mike

Mikesringnecks
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:40 am

molossus wrote:Mike send me your e mail add and i will fwd you some pics of my blue series emerald to assist in identification.
Hi molossus the site won't let me send my e -mail it complains about URLs. I would send photos but the site won't seem to let me do that either. I think one of the chicks in question is an emerald blue cleartail but I don't have one. Only an emerald split cleartail and a turquoise emerald cleartail which is a very different color to my emerald split. Kind regards Mike

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:50 am

Mike

send photos to email below & i will post them up here for you
ringneck
@techemail.com

(i broken up my email so it won't be picked up by robotz)

site won't allow you to post pics because you're new - it's a site protection to deter spammers

Cheers
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know

Mikesringnecks
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Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:57 am

I have a young pair comprising a turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a violet cobalt cleartail cock. She is an early bred 2012 hen I bought and he is a 2011 bird I bred but he hasn't yet got a ring.
They double clutched which worried me a fair bit at the time but all seems to be OK. I fostered both clutches and gave her some less rare fertile eggs to practice motherhood on.
The first clutch comprised what I think are a violet emerald cleartail, an emerald cleartail and a violet cobalt emerald cleartail. They are bout 5 weeks old now so quite well feathered but I have never seen any of the colors they represent before so I'm unsure as to whether or not they are what I think they might be.
The attached photo includes 2 ring-ins from another nest that can only be cobalt emerald cleartails because of their parentage.
What surprises me most, apart from the luck involved in getting those 3 mutations, is the apparently significant difference in coloration compared with the difference I usually get between violet, cobalt and violet cobalt without the presence of emerald.
Kind regards
Mike
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AlphaWolf
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Re: Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by AlphaWolf » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:04 am

OMG THEY ARE TOOO BEAUTIFUL.
"Live with parrots and you learn to panic"

AlphaWolf

jessicaz
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Re: Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by jessicaz » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:43 am

Wow! I think they are all gorgeous colours well done!

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:54 am

Mike,

Beautiful birds, well done.

Any chance we can see a pic of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen please?
do you have a higher resolution pic of the chicks?

i can not see turquoise on either of the chicks.
when you look at them did you see any of their wings with turquoise markings?


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Mikesringnecks
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emerald cleartail phenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:01 pm

Hi
I think I now know how to post photos. The site is new to me and I'm not particularly computer literate.
If this works, the 2 chicks labeled cobalt emerald cleartail come from a cobalt cleartail cock bird and an emerald split cleartail hen. They are part of a clutch of 4, they both have lemon bellies and I don't think they can be anything other than as labeled.
The 3 I am unsure about, numbered 1, 2 and 3, also have lemon bellies. They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock that I bred that is not split for anything. I think they are a violet emerald cleartail (1), an emerald blue cleartail (2) and a violet cobalt emerald cleartail (3). However, I have never seen any of those colors in cleartails or straight birds for that matter so I am quite unsure of the phenetics. That is why I was seeking help from anyone who could identify the colors with more certainty than I can.
Kind regards
Mike
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MallyKat
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Re: emerald cleartail phenetics

Post by MallyKat » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:18 pm

I'm not sure on your question, sorry! But just saying that they are beautiful birds! :) Best wishes in finding answers!

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Skyes_crew
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Re: Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:03 pm

Bird 3 is significantly darker than what I would expect from a normal violet cobalt. Wow!!!
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image

Johan S
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Re: emerald cleartail phenetics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:12 am

Mikesringnecks wrote:They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock
Mike, could you perhaps upload a picture of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen, esp. of her back so that we can decide on turquoise or indigo morphotypes?

It is a pity that the picture is so small, as it has the potential of becoming a fantastic reference picture. I don't have experience with emerald, but if the birds have lemon bellies like you mention, then it should be emerald, as I don't see any manifestation of parblue on the wings (yet?). I think you have identified these birds correctly. What I have noticed though, is that bird 1 is significantly darker than the two cobalts you have labeled. Much more so than with my cobalts and violets where the difference is less. The question then, where do these cobalts originate from? Are they the European cobalt (double factor is mauve), or Oz cobalts aka deep (double factor is deep blue bird, not mauve)?

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Doodlebug
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Re: Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by Doodlebug » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:52 am

Goodness me what absolute stunners they are! You imagine how much more intense the colour with age and a few moults!

A job well done I'd say :)
Loo :)

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sheyd
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by sheyd » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:47 am

I'll put them all in this thread, as this was the original one that you started Mike (and maybe mods could merge all threads together as well as put it in the Mutation/Genetics part of the forum?)
Mikesringnecks wrote:I have a young pair comprising a turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a violet cobalt cleartail cock. She is an early bred 2012 hen I bought and he is a 2011 bird I bred but he hasn't yet got a ring.
They double clutched which worried me a fair bit at the time but all seems to be OK. I fostered both clutches and gave her some less rare fertile eggs to practice motherhood on.
The first clutch comprised what I think are a violet emerald cleartail, an emerald cleartail and a violet cobalt emerald cleartail. They are bout 5 weeks old now so quite well feathered but I have never seen any of the colors they represent before so I'm unsure as to whether or not they are what I think they might be.
The attached photo includes 2 ring-ins from another nest that can only be cobalt emerald cleartails because of their parentage.
What surprises me most, apart from the luck involved in getting those 3 mutations, is the apparently significant difference in coloration compared with the difference I usually get between violet, cobalt and violet cobalt without the presence of emerald.
Kind regards
Mike
Ring0Neck wrote:Mike,

Beautiful birds, well done.

Any chance we can see a pic of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen please?
do you have a higher resolution pic of the chicks?

i can not see turquoise on either of the chicks.
when you look at them did you see any of their wings with turquoise markings?


Skyes_crew wrote:Bird 3 is significantly darker than what I would expect from a normal violet cobalt. Wow!!!
Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi
I think I now know how to post photos. The site is new to me and I'm not particularly computer literate.
If this works, the 2 chicks labeled cobalt emerald cleartail come from a cobalt cleartail cock bird and an emerald split cleartail hen. They are part of a clutch of 4, they both have lemon bellies and I don't think they can be anything other than as labeled.
The 3 I am unsure about, numbered 1, 2 and 3, also have lemon bellies. They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock that I bred that is not split for anything. I think they are a violet emerald cleartail (1), an emerald blue cleartail (2) and a violet cobalt emerald cleartail (3). However, I have never seen any of those colors in cleartails or straight birds for that matter so I am quite unsure of the phenetics. That is why I was seeking help from anyone who could identify the colors with more certainty than I can.
Kind regards
Mike
Chicks in question- 1, 2, & 3
http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Spirite ... e.jpg.html
Johan S wrote:
Mikesringnecks wrote:They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock
Mike, could you perhaps upload a picture of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen, esp. of her back so that we can decide on turquoise or indigo morphotypes?

It is a pity that the picture is so small, as it has the potential of becoming a fantastic reference picture. I don't have experience with emerald, but if the birds have lemon bellies like you mention, then it should be emerald, as I don't see any manifestation of parblue on the wings (yet?). I think you have identified these birds correctly. What I have noticed though, is that bird 1 is significantly darker than the two cobalts you have labeled. Much more so than with my cobalts and violets where the difference is less. The question then, where do these cobalts originate from? Are they the European cobalt (double factor is mauve), or Oz cobalts aka deep (double factor is deep blue bird, not mauve)?
Pics of Mike's (sorry I can't get them to display- the resolution is too low I think for the link to be enabled)
Parents:
http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Spirite ... 9.jpg.html
http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Spirite ... 1.jpg.html

>>as you can probably guess, Mike is having a bit of trouble navigating the forum- hopefully it becomes easier for him and that he decides to stay :) <<

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sheyd
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by sheyd » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:42 pm

Huh!!!??? Where did your post go Ben?

I'm a bit disappointed - you had a good theory there and I'm sure Mike would of liked to of heard it-
...............

I invited Mike to join this forum after buying some birds (my Violet and his brother) interstate from him after he'd mentioned that he was a member of Terry's group and was interested in genetics. He has been breeding for 60yrs, ringnecks in the last 10 (correct me if I'm wrong Mike).

Mike would be an extremely valuable member to have.

Talking with him through email last night, he hasn't seen any replies, apart from 1 or 2 (because his threads were all over the place) and felt like no one was responding (which as we know wasn't the case)

I have hopefully helped him with the forum and navigation by the use of the 'view your posts' link and have asked if he could send through bigger pics of the chicks and parents- though I'm not sure if he'll know how to do that as he's said he's not computer literate.

I have also asked the moderaters of this forum to move where the thread will receive more traffic as it so deserves.

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:05 pm

Lol Shey,

I was going to rewrite it as i believe there's a few mistakes but i'm ok being wrong.. i repost it below :D
Thanks to you both for persisting, appreciated.

I agree that the hen looks like emerald-turquoise combo in cleartail.

What is required is high resolution pics of the young chicks wings/back
From these images it is very hard to depict much, no turquoise is visible yet.

I just wonder if all these birds are emerald-turquoise cleartails!??
As we can see from the hen in this combo no turquoise is visible... it blended in...
*Perhaps emerlad-turquoise becomes a new single mutation call it E.T. a new single homozygous geno & phenotype
all offspring will be E.T. & then we add Blue and back to SF birds we go.
I know it is unlikely the above to be so, but i got you thinking!

Recio?? where are you

PS:
**I am almost certain now that the emerald is a Parblue mutation, I will collect the evidence in due course.
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Mikesringnecks
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Turquoise Emerald Cleartail

Post by Mikesringnecks » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:15 pm

Hi Ben
I,m not quite sure if I'm communicating with the right person. As you may have gathered I don't really know how to use the site yet.
After some time, I found replies to my posts re identification of chicks from the above hen. I think it was you who suggested she could be passing on both turquoise and emerald genes at once. Quite possible technically if emerald is not a par blue as Deon Smith suggested as a possibility in his book. I certainly wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a turquoise emerald violet cobalt cleartail and an emerald violet cobalt cleartail because emerald seems to obliterate the patchiness I always seem to see in young turquoise birds.
The only thing I have helping me at the moment, is cobalt emerald cleartail chicks of the same age from another pair where the colour is not in doubt because the parentage is simple.
People were asking for larger photos with good reason. I didn't know how to do it but have found out and attached enlargements. Someone also wanted close ups of individual chicks including undersides. I will try that tomorrow when its not blowing a gale and 38 degrees.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by ellieelectrons » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:36 am

If the conversations seem a bit disjointed in this thread, it's because I merged several threads on the one topic. Mike is still learning how to use the forum and he wasn't sure how to view the responses people were giving him so I've grouped all of the conversations regarding the Emerald Cleartail into this one thread. I've sent Mike a Private Message to help but if we can all lend him a hand if he needs it, that would be great. You're all such a helpful, kind bunch and that's why it's nice working with you all :) - despite me knowing nothing about genetics!

Best wishes.

Ellie.

trabots
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by trabots » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:29 am

That Dark Violet CHCT (no Emerald?) is awesome in that image. When I first got a Blue CHCT I could see that the blue was darker than on a straight Blue. This seems compounded with the structural mutations. I have a DF Violet TurquoiseBlue CHCT and I wonder how you could get darker flights.

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sheyd
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by sheyd » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:23 am

lol Ben (thanks) :) now I feel bad.. lol

I think once we see individual pics of the chicks (assuming the image size remains the same) we'll be better able to tell if Emerald and Turquoise are co-existing together (or not) in the offspring.

Mike- Hoping the weather gets better for you

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:50 am

Hi Mike,
... she could be passing on both turquoise and emerald genes at once.


It seems that emerald turquoise cleartail combination eliminates/hides?/morphs? the turquoise but interestingly we can still see the turquoise features in all other mutations/combinations or even plain turquoise-emerald as we have seen on Chris's emerald-turq bird as well as Molossus's pic he posted of emerald turquoise harlequin.
Early indications i can pickup is that turquoise-emerald birds will have 100% emerald offspring (or the morphed turq-emerald) when paired to blue series; these are not yet facts just notes.

Thankfully, you have 2 clutches and if you'd be kind to keep us updated with photos of the chicks from both clutches we could draw some conclusive conclusions.

Picture of Bob's emerald-turquoise
Image

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:35 pm

Hi
This is my second attempt to post an update, if it doesn't work I will have take a break and seek Ellie's help yet again.
I undertook to take better "in hand" photos of my turquoise emerald cleartail hen's chicks and a better shot of her. I have done the chicks but she is nervous with me in the aviary and shots through the wire are no good so I will have to keep trying. I did get a shot of the father though because he is a bird I bred and he is not particularly worried by my presence in the aviary.
As before, I have included pics of a cobalt emerald cleartail chick from a cobalt cleartail father and an emerald split cleartail mother because, given the parentage, I am certain of its colour . It is so similar to the 3 chicks from the turquoise emerald cleartail hen that it brings me to believe that at least that all 3 are emerald cleartails of some sort.
The photos speak for themselves, although I'm not a very competent camera man. If they are what I say they are on the pics then the jury is still out on whether or not emerald is an allele of the blue locus. As I understand it, to establish that emerald is not an allele of the blue locus, I need to get a blue , violet, cobalt or violet cobalt cleartail chick or a chick that combines turquoise emerald with any of the foregoing options. I'm not at all confident however about telling the difference between a turquoise emerald violet and a an emerald violet, let alone the other 3 possibilities in that series.
To reiterate, the parents are a violet cobalt cleartail cock and a turquoise emerald cleartail hen. The first 3 chicks all look like emerald cleartails now I have taken advice and photographed them "in hand", thank you very much for the advice. There are 4 to come but they have only just been ringed so it will be a week or so before I can start trying to identify their colours.
Hope the attached pics work, bear in mind the only ones I am entirely certain about colour wise are the father and the cobalt emerald cleartail.
Kind regards
Mike
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sheyd
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by sheyd » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:44 pm

I think you've labeled them all correctly --- do you know what the parents were of your Emerald hen?

Beautiful btw!

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Re: emerald cleartail phenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:17 pm

Johan S wrote:
Mikesringnecks wrote:They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock
Mike, could you perhaps upload a picture of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen, esp. of her back so that we can decide on turquoise or indigo morphotypes?

It is a pity that the picture is so small, as it has the potential of becoming a fantastic reference picture. I don't have experience with emerald, but if the birds have lemon bellies like you mention, then it should be emerald, as I don't see any manifestation of parblue on the wings (yet?). I think you have identified these birds correctly. What I have noticed though, is that bird 1 is significantly darker than the two cobalts you have labeled. Much more so than with my cobalts and violets where the difference is less. The question then, where do these cobalts originate from? Are they the European cobalt (double factor is mauve), or Oz cobalts aka deep (double factor is deep blue bird, not mauve)?
Hi Johan
I don't know why the supposed violet emerald cleartail looks darker than the known cobalt emerald cleartails but you are right it does, though to my eye violets are always brighter than cobalts maybe the interaction with emerald makes them seem darker than cobalts.
The cobalt gene is definitely European, comes from an a hen imported into western Australia from Europe, there is no chance of it being an Ozzie cobalt or deep blue or whatever they are calling them now.
It was suggested that I take some closer up "in hand" photos to show their bellies which I have done and posted (I think). I have tried to get a better pic of the hen but she is nervous with me in the aviary and she has foster chicks so I haven't got a good shot yet, I will keep trying
Kind regards Mike
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Skyes_crew » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:45 pm

The colors and size of the birds are phenomenal. The violet cobalt emerald took on more of a mauve appearance. Very nice :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by trabots » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:52 am

Those birds are fabulous Mike, you are far further along with the CHCTs, now you need to get Deep in there as well for some truly dark blue birds. Good stuff, great images, they speak better than words.

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:28 am


Mike,

I suggest we concentrate on the Cobalt Emerald Cleartails only for now.

You have a great advantage having the Cobalt Emerald Cleartail from the other pair which is great reference point.

What i would be looking for is the cream/yellow color intensity on their belly compared to the other cobalt emerald CT. birds
If turquoise is present we should detect a color change, darker cream i imagine.

I would suggest to take pics using flash and no flash.
IMO Turquoise & emerald can best be seen with flash.



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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by trabots » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:27 am

Just a thought but could the TurquoiseEmerald hen in fact be an IndigoEmerald? Indigo can be hard to see. There are pics on Chris Whipp's site which show an EmeraldTurquoise that is slightly patchy.

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:34 am

Willy,

As mentioned in previous post
So far any turquoise emerald cleartail i have seen, it had removed any traces of turquoise
no other mutation combo that i can think of does this.....
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Re: emerald cleartail phenetics

Post by madas » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:20 am

Mikesringnecks wrote:
Johan S wrote:
Mikesringnecks wrote:They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock
Mike, could you perhaps upload a picture of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen, esp. of her back so that we can decide on turquoise or indigo morphotypes?

It is a pity that the picture is so small, as it has the potential of becoming a fantastic reference picture. I don't have experience with emerald, but if the birds have lemon bellies like you mention, then it should be emerald, as I don't see any manifestation of parblue on the wings (yet?). I think you have identified these birds correctly. What I have noticed though, is that bird 1 is significantly darker than the two cobalts you have labeled. Much more so than with my cobalts and violets where the difference is less. The question then, where do these cobalts originate from? Are they the European cobalt (double factor is mauve), or Oz cobalts aka deep (double factor is deep blue bird, not mauve)?
Hi Johan
I don't know why the supposed violet emerald cleartail looks darker than the known cobalt emerald cleartails but you are right it does, though to my eye violets are always brighter than cobalts maybe the interaction with emerald makes them seem darker than cobalts.
The cobalt gene is definitely European, comes from an a hen imported into western Australia from Europe, there is no chance of it being an Ozzie cobalt or deep blue or whatever they are calling them now.
It was suggested that I take some closer up "in hand" photos to show their bellies which I have done and posted (I think). I have tried to get a better pic of the hen but she is nervous with me in the aviary and she has foster chicks so I haven't got a good shot yet, I will keep trying
Kind regards Mike
Any Chance for bigger Resolution pics???
thx in advance.

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:37 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
Mike,

I suggest we concentrate on the Cobalt Emerald Cleartails only for now.

You have a great advantage having the Cobalt Emerald Cleartail from the other pair which is great reference point.

What i would be looking for is the cream/yellow color intensity on their belly compared to the other cobalt emerald CT. birds
If turquoise is present we should detect a color change, darker cream i imagine.

I would suggest to take pics using flash and no flash.
IMO Turquoise & emerald can best be seen with flash.



Ben
Hi Ben,

If Emerald was a structural yellow mutation both green and blue series emeralds would look similar (this was discussed in the post about the "structural yellow"). In this situation Turquoise would not be detectable in emerald birds, as Mike describes in his birds. How could we know that those birds really express Emerald? (I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).
As you say the answer probably is on the belly colour ... but looking at them under uv rather than with/without flash: in Turquoise birds the belly is not fluorescent under uv (even in adult birds despite that fluorescence increases at adulthood), but whenever Emerald is in the mix, the whole bird is fluorescent (even in young birds) under uv.

How could we explain that Dark Violet Emerald CT could be so dark? Probably here we are facing one mutation on the spongy zone (Dark) together with two mutations of the cortex (Emerald and Violet). Emerald and Violet both increase the brigthness of the bird probably by acting on the reflecting outer part of the cortex. When both mutations are together in the same bird this effect on brightness seems disappear (as Mike has described), pointing to an interaction between both mutations, which would be easier to understand if they were both structural mutations and if both were acting on the same structure. Of course ... why this happens in CT but not in not-CT combinations? Is CT something more that a mutation acting on the distribution of melanin? Food for thougth for years to come.

I really am expecting the pics of the second clutch anf the % of Emeralds. Would it be again 100%, as it was for Babu with his first wild caugth Emerald?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by trabots » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:27 pm

This is an image of one of Chris' EmeraldTurquoise showing some patching from the Turquoise

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:40 pm

Recio welcome back ! Thanks for your input.

Mike,
If you could please email photos to email address below, pretty sure forum attachements trims down photos when posted.

ringneck@techemail.com

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by madas » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:45 pm

Recio wrote: (I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).
Hi Recio,

looking at the small res pics you can truly see a light, creamy yellow belly and tail. Which isn't the case for turq. So for sure the bird is carrying emerald.

I've got some pics the last days (and i think you too) showing birds of a combo emerald turq. These birds are outstanding and for my eyes clearly detectable among normal emerald or turq birds in the nest. unfortunately i am not allowed to post them.

And so far for me it is no surprise that a emerald chct in blue series looks darker then chct blue series birds without emerald. For turq birds you can see a darker blue color wihtin the transitions from normal blue base color to the patched turq areas. So the same should be true for a emerald bird but here among the whole Body. Btw. the turq patches got darker as well if violet or dark is added.

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Johan S » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:08 am

madas wrote:
Recio wrote: (I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).
Hi Recio,

looking at the small res pics you can truly see a light, creamy yellow belly and tail. Which isn't the case for turq. So for sure the bird is carrying emerald.
This was my impression too.

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by bennjamin » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:22 am

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:
Recio wrote: (I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).
Hi Recio,

looking at the small res pics you can truly see a light, creamy yellow belly and tail. Which isn't the case for turq. So for sure the bird is carrying emerald.
This was my impression too.

I would lean to Mikes call of emerald being in the mix, my violet cobalt CT are not at all that dark.

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:37 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Mike

send photos to email below & i will post them up here for you
ringneck
@techemail.com

(i broken up my email so it won't be picked up by robotz)

site won't allow you to post pics because you're new - it's a site protection to deter spammers

Cheers
Hi Ben
Happy yo send photos but I don't know the first half of your E-mail address
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by trabots » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:51 am

I am convinced about the Emerald in the birds, that's the value of images over words. Still would like to see the EmeraldTurquoise parent.

Madas, is what you saw the same as Chris' image above?

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Re: emerald cleartail phenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:00 am

Johan S wrote:
Mikesringnecks wrote:They come from a young turquoise emerald cleartail hen and a 2 year old violet cobalt cleartail cock
Mike, could you perhaps upload a picture of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen, esp. of her back so that we can decide on turquoise or indigo morphotypes?

It is a pity that the picture is so small, as it has the potential of becoming a fantastic reference picture. I don't have experience with emerald, but if the birds have lemon bellies like you mention, then it should be emerald, as I don't see any manifestation of parblue on the wings (yet?). I think you have identified these birds correctly. What I have noticed though, is that bird 1 is significantly darker than the two cobalts you have labeled. Much more so than with my cobalts and violets where the difference is less. The question then, where do these cobalts originate from? Are they the European cobalt (double factor is mauve), or Oz cobalts aka deep (double factor is deep blue bird, not mauve)?
Hi Johan
I don't know if this will reach you because i still don't fully understand how to use this site but I have tried to get better pics of the young Turquoise Emerald Cleartail hen front and back as you suggested. My best try so far is attached.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:17 am



Mike has emailed the pics however they are still low resolution.
I have enlarged a couple of pics for better viewing
I can do the rest as well if it helps others!?

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:59 am

Hi,

Following Willy ... nothing is better than a pic. Here is a Turquoise-Ino showing a yellow belly. Indigo does not show any yellow colour in the belly, but Mike says that the bird is Turquoise Emerald, and thus the yellow belly could be produced by any of both mutations.

Regards

Recio


Image

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by madas » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:07 am

trabots wrote:I am convinced about the Emerald in the birds, that's the value of images over words. Still would like to see the EmeraldTurquoise parent.

Madas, is what you saw the same as Chris' image above?
Hi Willy,

yes i would say they looked the same way although another mutation was in the mix too.
Lets wait some weeks for updated pics of these youngsters. I will let you know how they
develop. :)

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by madas » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:10 am

Recio wrote:Hi,

Following Willy ... nothing is better than a pic. Here is a Turquoise-Ino showing a yellow belly. Indigo does not show any yellow colour in the belly, but Mike says that the bird is Turquoise Emerald, and thus the yellow belly could be produced by any of both mutations.

Regards

Recio
So far right. But turq makes the belly yellow and the undertail is still white. In the opposite Aqua resp. Emerald makes the belly and undertail creamy yellow. ;)

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:27 am

madas wrote:
Recio wrote:Hi,

Following Willy ... nothing is better than a pic. Here is a Turquoise-Ino showing a yellow belly. Indigo does not show any yellow colour in the belly, but Mike says that the bird is Turquoise Emerald, and thus the yellow belly could be produced by any of both mutations.

Regards

Recio
So far right. But turq makes the belly yellow and the undertail is still white. In the opposite Aqua resp. Emerald makes the belly and undertail creamy yellow. ;)

madas
The same bird on another pic showing the yellow belly and yellow undertail. The extent of yellow psittacin in parblues depends on the specific parblue considered. If we define turquoise morphotype as owing a red ring in both SF and DF birds together with psittacin distribution preferently in patched areas of the wing coverts and the head, then we are including birds with different degrees of yellow, possibly corresponding to different alleles, under the same turquoise morphotype. The bird in the pic is an heterozygous TurquoiseBlue SL-Ino male, with a lot of psittacin sufusion. How could the DF bird look like? Probably very similar since the yellow colour is almost saturated ... for our eyes. :D

The key point to detect Emerald versus Heavy Turquoise in CT are the tail feathers ... but they are not yet developed in these birds. Anyway I mostly agree with all of you that Emerald seems to be in the mix.

Image

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by madas » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:40 am

Recio wrote:
madas wrote:
Recio wrote:Hi,

Following Willy ... nothing is better than a pic. Here is a Turquoise-Ino showing a yellow belly. Indigo does not show any yellow colour in the belly, but Mike says that the bird is Turquoise Emerald, and thus the yellow belly could be produced by any of both mutations.

Regards

Recio
So far right. But turq makes the belly yellow and the undertail is still white. In the opposite Aqua resp. Emerald makes the belly and undertail creamy yellow. ;)

madas
The same bird on another pic showing the yellow belly and yellow undertail. The extent of yellow psittacin in parblues depends on the specific parblue considered. If we define turquoise morphotype as owing a red ring in both SF and DF birds together with psittacin distribution preferently in patched areas of the wing coverts and the head, then we are including birds with different degrees of yellow, possibly corresponding to different alleles, under the same turquoise morphotype. The bird in the pic is an heterozygous TurquoiseBlue SL-Ino male, with a lot of psittacin sufusion. How could the DF bird look like? Probably very similar since the yellow colour is almost saturated ... for our eyes. :D

The key point to detect Emerald versus Heavy Turquoise in CT are the tail feathers ... but they are not yet developed in these birds. Anyway I mostly agree with all of you that Emerald seems to be in the mix.

Image
Hi Recio,

yeah i mostly agree. But i think you can't compare the tail feathers of turq SL-ino with a turq or emerald cleartail. Attached a pic of cleartail turq (heavy turq).

Image

Tail underside is white.

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:54 am

trabots wrote:This is an image of one of Chris' EmeraldTurquoise showing some patching from the Turquoise

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Hi Willy,

I have been thinking a lot about this pic, since it was the only pic of a bird labeled Turquoise Emerald (TurquoiseEmerald if you prefere) that was available for a while. You can compare it to Mike's pics and the difference is evident: Mike's bird appears as a mainly green bird with a brigthness that seems to change depending on the incident ligth - bird - camera angle. Far more, sometimes it is not only the apparent brigthness, but also the hue which seems to change, and in some pics the birds appear bluer and in others it appears greener (maybe my eyes and my screen are also working in this perception). If I am not wrong, Chris pic was taken under artificial lighting, which usually is compound of 3 or 4 wavelengths according to the emission spectrum of the bulb. In this situation, whenever the yellow wavelengths are not enough represented in this spectrum we can fail to properly detect Emerald allowing us to easierly uncover the underlying psittacin of the Turquoise patches.

In the past uv studies allowed to detect two different fluorescent emisions between Emeralds and the wild, lutino and parblues group. I have been wanting to perform similar studies but using a monochromatic yellow ligth to study not the fluorescence but the difference in iridiscence between those groups. If the soft even yellow we can see in Emeralds depends on a reflexion of yellow wavelengths on the surface of the cortex (structural yellow), then this colour perception must be coupled to the presence of brigthness. If Emeralds appear yellow and loose their brigthness under this yellow ligth it would mean that both phenomena (colour and brigthness) are not coupled and probably depend on different structures/pigments.

I have been asking people to send me feathers of Emeralds to do it ... but so far I am always waiting for them ... so, if somebody has the time and curiosity to do it ... it would be great.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:07 pm

madas wrote:
Recio wrote: (I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).
Hi Recio,
... And so far for me it is no surprise that a emerald chct in blue series looks darker then chct blue series birds without emerald. For turq birds you can see a darker blue color wihtin the transitions from normal blue base color to the patched turq areas. So the same should be true for a emerald bird but here among the whole Body. Btw. the turq patches got darker as well if violet or dark is added.

madas
Hi Madas,

As you say the darker colour in turquoise birds appears within the transition from normal blue base colour to the patched turquoise areas. In Emeralds there is not any transition because there are not patches, so IMO the darker colour is quite unexpected. :)

Best regards

Recio

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:26 pm

madas wrote:
yeah i mostly agree. But i think you can't compare the tail feathers of turq SL-ino with a turq or emerald cleartail. Attached a pic of cleartail turq (heavy turq).

Image

Tail underside is white.

madas
Hi Madas,

IMO tail underside is creamy :) . CT induces changes not only in melanin distribution (no comment since it is evident for everybody) but also in psittacin content (as we can see in the CT rec lutino combo, which shows a lower amount of psittacin in the belly). This explains the lower amount of psittacin in the belly and undertail of turquoise CT birds, even if the original turquoise was a "heavy turquoise". Anyway CT seems to act also on the feather structure (and now I join Willy previous post) so that the expresion of other structural mutations in CT birds produce different phenotypes than expected. More, I think that probably the first action of CT is on feather structure, and that this change induces a secondary decrease in the ability of the feather to be "charged" in pigments (both melanin and psitacin). In other mutations acting on melanocytes (pieds and probably opaline) the control of the expression of both pigments is asymetrical with a decrease in melanin when psittacins increase or just the oposite. In CT both pigments decrease in intensity in the same areas, so I do not think that the regulation of both pigments is made at the melanocyte level, but probably as a second hand effect of a primary action on feather structure.

Of course, just speculation ... as ever before (I am too old to change).

Regards

Recio

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by madas » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:54 pm

Recio wrote:
madas wrote:
Recio wrote: (I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).
Hi Recio,
... And so far for me it is no surprise that a emerald chct in blue series looks darker then chct blue series birds without emerald. For turq birds you can see a darker blue color wihtin the transitions from normal blue base color to the patched turq areas. So the same should be true for a emerald bird but here among the whole Body. Btw. the turq patches got darker as well if violet or dark is added.

madas
Hi Madas,

As you say the darker colour in turquoise birds appears within the transition from normal blue base colour to the patched turquoise areas. In Emeralds there is not any transition because there are not patches, so IMO the darker colour is quite unexpected. :)

Best regards

Recio
No. I ment the same should apply for emerald because there is such a transition among the whole Body. :D

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by madas » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:57 pm

Recio wrote:
madas wrote:
yeah i mostly agree. But i think you can't compare the tail feathers of turq SL-ino with a turq or emerald cleartail. Attached a pic of cleartail turq (heavy turq).

Image

Tail underside is white.

madas
Hi Madas,

IMO tail underside is creamy :) . CT induces changes not only in melanin distribution (no comment since it is evident for everybody) but also in psittacin content (as we can see in the CT rec lutino combo, which shows a lower amount of psittacin in the belly). This explains the lower amount of psittacin in the belly and undertail of turquoise CT birds, even if the original turquoise was a "heavy turquoise". Anyway CT seems to act also on the feather structure (and now I join Willy previous post) so that the expresion of other structural mutations in CT birds produce different phenotypes than expected. More, I think that probably the first action of CT is on feather structure, and that this change induces a secondary decrease in the ability of the feather to be "charged" in pigments (both melanin and psitacin). In other mutations acting on melanocytes (pieds and probably opaline) the control of the expression of both pigments is asymetrical with a decrease in melanin when psittacins increase or just the oposite. In CT both pigments decrease in intensity in the same areas, so I do not think that the regulation of both pigments is made at the melanocyte level, but probably as a second hand effect of a primary action on feather structure.

Of course, just speculation ... as ever before (I am too old to change).

Regards

Recio
Hm, then you must have other eyes. Compared to the green series bird on the left the chct turq on the right for my eyes is showing a White undertail. Not yellow and not creamy. :(

madas

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Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Mikesringnecks » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:35 pm

Recio wrote:
trabots wrote:This is an image of one of Chris' EmeraldTurquoise showing some patching from the Turquoise

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Hi Willy,

I have been thinking a lot about this pic, since it was the only pic of a bird labeled Turquoise Emerald (TurquoiseEmerald if you prefere) that was available for a while. You can compare it to Mike's pics and the difference is evident: Mike's bird appears as a mainly green bird with a brigthness that seems to change depending on the incident ligth - bird - camera angle. Far more, sometimes it is not only the apparent brigthness, but also the hue which seems to change, and in some pics the birds appear bluer and in others it appears greener (maybe my eyes and my screen are also working in this perception). If I am not wrong, Chris pic was taken under artificial lighting, which usually is compound of 3 or 4 wavelengths according to the emission spectrum of the bulb. In this situation, whenever the yellow wavelengths are not enough represented in this spectrum we can fail to properly detect Emerald allowing us to easierly uncover the underlying psittacin of the Turquoise patches.

In the past uv studies allowed to detect two different fluorescent emisions between Emeralds and the wild, lutino and parblues group. I have been wanting to perform similar studies but using a monochromatic yellow ligth to study not the fluorescence but the difference in iridiscence between those groups. If the soft even yellow we can see in Emeralds depends on a reflexion of yellow wavelengths on the surface of the cortex (structural yellow), then this colour perception must be coupled to the presence of brigthness. If Emeralds appear yellow and loose their brigthness under this yellow ligth it would mean that both phenomena (colour and brigthness) are not coupled and probably depend on different structures/pigments.

I have been asking people to send me feathers of Emeralds to do it ... but so far I am always waiting for them ... so, if somebody has the time and curiosity to do it ... it would be great.

Regards

Recio[/quot

Hi Recio
Re Turquoise Emerald Cleartail hen and and Violet Cobalt Cleartail cock bird. Second clutch of 4 is starting to colour up (first 3 have ends of flight feathers and tail feathers just showing). Interestingly, the second one looks as if it will have a white tail and underside, not lemon like all the others so far.
I can't see yet whether it is carrying any turquoise or not but, as you know, turquoise can stay hidden at least up to the juvenile moult.
Too early to take useful photos yet but I have sourced a better camera and photographer when the time comes. However, the foster parents on this second clutch are not tame so I will have to be a bit circumspect about how often I take the chicks out for photography.
I have an Emerald split cleartail tail hen as well as the Turquoise Emerald Cleartail. If you can deduce anything from analysis of their feathers, I would be happy to forward some if I had an address to send them to.
Kind regards
Mike

Mikesringnecks
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Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Blue series emerald cleartails

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:30 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Mike,

Beautiful birds, well done.

Any chance we can see a pic of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen please?
do you have a higher resolution pic of the chicks?

i can not see turquoise on either of the chicks.
when you look at them did you see any of their wings with turquoise markings?


Hi Ben
I think I have worked out what I was doing with the photos, the attached photo of the first of the cobalt emerald cleartails to fledge should be higher resolution I hope, but the higher resolution shots of the mother don't seem to want to attach.
The second clutch are starting to show colour but not enough yet to warrant a photo. However, 2 of them look to be pretty well white underneath rather than lemon. Unfortunately that won't necessarily tell us in a hurry whether or not they are turquoise given the variability in expression that mutation can experience.
Kind regards
Mike
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Ring0Neck
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Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:41 am




Better pics from Mike.

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Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:57 pm

Mikesringnecks wrote: Hi Recio
Re Turquoise Emerald Cleartail hen and and Violet Cobalt Cleartail cock bird. Second clutch of 4 is starting to colour up (first 3 have ends of flight feathers and tail feathers just showing). Interestingly, the second one looks as if it will have a white tail and underside, not lemon like all the others so far.
I can't see yet whether it is carrying any turquoise or not but, as you know, turquoise can stay hidden at least up to the juvenile moult.
Too early to take useful photos yet but I have sourced a better camera and photographer when the time comes. However, the foster parents on this second clutch are not tame so I will have to be a bit circumspect about how often I take the chicks out for photography.
I have an Emerald split cleartail tail hen as well as the Turquoise Emerald Cleartail. If you can deduce anything from analysis of their feathers, I would be happy to forward some if I had an address to send them to.
Kind regards
Mike
Hi Mike,

Expecting your pics.
My postal address:

Joaquin Recio Calzada
197bis route de Saint Simon
31100 Toulouse
France

Feathers from any other contributor are welcome. Please label the feathers with the mutation(s) name(s) and try to send at least some covert wing feathers and also some primary wing feathers.

Thanks

Recio

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prodigy
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Location: South Africa

Re: Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

Post by prodigy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:16 am

Someone please remove this SPAM RETARD !!!!!!

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