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"PBFD" - Feather and Beak

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Procrastinator
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"PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Procrastinator » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:33 pm

Good day All

I was given wind from one of my suppliers in Australia that the export facilities in australia are under complete shut down due the the out break of the thriving feather and beak diseases throughout the Australia :o .Many of us South African have invested alot of money,time and effort in purchasing bird from australia not know the status of PBFD in the country. :evil:

I now begin to worry and i ask myself if this disease has been pressent in Australia all this while is it not possible that all the birds that have been imported into South Africa (from Austrailia) be carriers or possible carriers of PBFD although they do not show any signs of this disease?
:?: :?: :?:
All opinions welcome :) :D :)

Johan S
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Johan S » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:32 am

That's a rather heavy topic to begin with your first post. Regardless, welcome to the forum.

PBFD is alive and kicking in SA and Europe as well, so I wouldn't necessarily point fingers to imports from Oz only.

My opinion on the matter is rather simple: it remains the responsibility of every breeder to maintain sound quarantine procedures for new birds. Treat EVERY bird (not just imports) that you purchase as a possible carrier. Place it in quarantine for at least 30 days (with imported birds that is part of the process) before testing it. That way you can save yourself a lot of heartache and stress.

Carr.birds
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Carr.birds » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:43 am

Procrastinator

According to my knowledge no export quarantine facility exit in OZ. Breeders/exporters must put bird in Quarantine in a separate aviary and like all other Countries perform certain test required by our Government under supervision of their local State Vet. Unfortunately pbfdv isn't part of the required tests. WE imported xxx birds the past 3 years from OZ and none of them tested positive. I believe we (SA) have a bigger problem compared to OZ. Like Johan mentioned it is all over and it is your responsibility to protect your collection with good quarantine methods.

I suggest you make the pbfdv test part of your import requirements.

Tienie

Procrastinator
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Procrastinator » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:51 pm

Greeting All

Molossus-its news to me about that ban being lifted :?: , I agree that we should have an Auzzie breeders oppion. :)

Johan- PBFD took the world by storm and is present every where,im not pointing any fingers its just that majoroty of the birds imported into SA are coming from Oz.I mean no harm and i sincerely appolgize if i offended any of the oz breeders.

Tinnie- It seem to me that u have also imported birds from Oz....i guess its is just our luck that none of our birds have been tested positive PBFD, but what if a bird that u imported was tested positive?What would ur oppion be then?. Since PFBD isnt part of the nessery test requirement i highly doubt that the state vets are going to go out of there way to test these birds,it seems to me that both Johan and yourself fell that i am targeting the aussie breeder......I strongly agree with you when u say that SA has a bigger problem concerning PBFD but if breeders in SA are going to import birds that are carrying PBFD hence Wouldnt this make our bigger problem EVEN BIGGER?

I realy appreciate your's part taking in this thread :P :mrgreen:

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Ring0Neck
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:00 pm

Hi All,

I do not know of any PBFD problems here in Oz or any breeders having birds infected.

Perhaps Willy or others heard anything, but as far as i know, it's just wind no facts.

As Tiennie said, non of his imports were tested positive, i guess this is an upside to no imports in OZ.


Procrastinator
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Procrastinator » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:42 pm

Hi all Just something i missed out earliar
Tinnie - getting birds tested is no problem at all.A friend of mind had imported some bird and as the birds left oz they where fine but when they arrived in SA they where not.Through the loop of getting here something went wrong or the breeder are lying or the quarantine facilities in Oz are infected because the breeder tested the bird with negative results any then sent the bird to quarantine.However make such a statement is fictitious because before and after the epicidemic in australia,birds where not allowed to leave or enter Oz which means that Oz probly has always had feather and beak which has been brought into SA or i would say that MAYBE OZ breeder have something completely new and this will now begin to tarnish the name of AUSTRALIA and its breeders.

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Skyes_crew
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:44 pm

PBFD has been around since the late 1800's in Australia. It is not new. And people have to expect it to be present as well as numerous other diseases, due to the large amount of wild caught birds used in breeding programs. Not all breeders test. You also have to expect that shipping conditions that aren't controlled expose otherwise clean birds to numerous diseases. I agree that it is the buyers responsibility to verify the health of their birds upon arrival. It is the buyers responsibility to control the shipping situation such as private shippers. My breeder is a close friend. But when I get a bird from him I quarantine the bird from the rest of my flock. Whether its SA AUS EUR or USA, it is our responsibility to eradicate these diseases. Test, isolate, destroy.
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bennjamin
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by bennjamin » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:52 pm

Serious information you are asserting here or serious misinformation !

Quite extraordinary you could imply a quarantine facility would harbor the virus.

Maybe you should be telling all here on the forum who has the problem in SA and where did he source the birds from in Australia.

Johan S
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Johan S » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am

Procrastinator wrote:Through the loop of getting here something went wrong or the breeder are lying or the quarantine facilities in Oz are infected because the breeder tested the bird with negative results any then sent the bird to quarantine.
Procrastinator, this loop you are mentioning; were these birds by any chance transfered via Europe or England? Maybe it is just my imagination, but I think we are missing part of the story. Secondly, you need to take into account that a disease has an incubation period during which time test results will return as negative. That is why it is important to allow at least 30 days between tests. Also why that period is set for import quarantine.
Skyes_crew wrote:Test, isolate, destroy.
Unfortunately that is the hard part for many. I know a breeder from the 90's in a town Kimberley in SA that used to have two sets of aviaries. One with healthy birds, and the other with poor birds falling apart with disease. Rather than cull them, he would breed them in isolation and sell chicks that miraculously survived as if healthy. Sad story.
bennjamin wrote:Maybe you should be telling all here on the forum who has the problem in SA and where did he source the birds from in Australia.
I think the problem might have come from the "loophole" mentioned and not necessarily Oz. However, for me personally, I do not believe in the name and shame approach on a public forum. Look at what the constant bickering did on Terry Martin's mailing list. A wonderful resource that is now shut down. They can sort out their problems privately if it was up to me.

clawnz
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by clawnz » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:19 am

Here's I my bit.
PBFD is a horror. Yes it has been around in the wild since the late 1800.s in Aussy.
Some of the flocks have a large percentage of infected birds.
As far as I know there are different versions of this disease. I have seen the worst first hand and I tell you it is not pretty. And I watched this SC2 suffer for 4mths before it was put to sleep. This one had keratin issues, Beak and Toe trouble as well as losing feathers.
Another version is one that Rosellas can get. This one they seem to be able to survive, but never fully recover and this leaves them with damaged feathers and they cannot fly. It is also known to damage immune system. Allowing other disease to take hold.
Now while we are talking about testing, this is a curly one, as I understand a bird can carry this and test clear, then months down the track test positive. Testing is done and then again 90days later. So if I am right, a clear test before shipping may not be proof positive that a bird is not carrying PBFD. Some bird do not show until they are put under stress. Other can recover and become carriers.
I understand it can be spread by pooh dust or passed on in the nest to the young from infected adults.
Bloody scary to say the least.
Here in New Zealand it is in the wild SC2's Rosella and now turned up in our Kakariki.
I would like to point out that I maybe wrong on some of this, as my research was a few years ago.

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Skyes_crew
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:57 am

Clawnz...I never heard of more than one strain. Interesting. I thought it affected SC2 and Rosellas the same way. If they are able to recover, they eventually succumb to the secondary diseases and infections from permanent beak damage and a compromised immune system. It would be interesting to know if the original strain has mutated in some way. I read somewhere that they are able to vaccinate against it now. Is this true? And if the disease can stay hidden in testing for upwards of 90 days what does that say for our quarantine practices? As it is the quarantine rules in place are a joke. Here in Hawaii it is 30 days in home. No one does any kind of follow up either. I'm all for stricter quarantine regulations if it will eventually put a stop to the spreading of these diseases. But i don't think it's very productive to point fingers at one particular breeder or country when this disease is found everywhere. And it very well may have been an accident if the disease can in fact stay hidden beyond a 30 day quarantine. 2 more cents from me :wink:
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Lushen1600
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Lushen1600 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:19 am

Hi what I would like to know is how did PBFD originate, what was the root cause of this virus and can a breeder with a flock that is known to be free from this virus for years, suddenly find that his birds have this disease without buying any birds from other breeders. And if so how would one explain how the disease started with the breeders flock without introduction of new stock.

Similar to this we have HIV in humans which to this day no one knows for a fact where it originated from, and also attacks the immune system in humans allowing a secondary disease to make the individual ill due to the weakened immune system and the person at times dies from the secondary infection. So as we all know that HIV is passed on by contact with body fluids, and there is also a window period with HIV where an HIV infected person can test negative as there body has not yet produce antibodies to the virus, and this window period where the individual tests negative can be anything between 3 months to a few years or more.

So if we know for a fact that we don't have the virus, it shouldn't (in theory) appear after many years without us coming into contact with body fluids of an HIV infected person that have gained access to mixed with our body fluids.

So my question is if a breeder knows for sure that he doesn't have PBFD in his stock of birds and doesn't introduce new stock to his flock, can he then be assured that he will never encounter the disease in his flock, or is it still possible

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InTheAir
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by InTheAir » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:29 am

Just for the interest of people who are following this thread, but have nothing to contribute...
Clawnz: Rosella = trichoglossus or platycerus?
Where I lived in nz Rosella was the common name for trichoglossus haematodus, aka rainbow lorikeet in Aus...

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Skyes_crew
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:36 am

I'm not so sure anyone will ever really know the root of the disease. But the disease is shown to be caused by one of two common strands of viruses; Similar to HIV vs. AIDS. But unlike HIV or AIDS, PBFD can be transferred more commonly. Something as simple as feather dust can transfer the virus through an entire colony. And while most birds display outward appearances of the virus, still others remain as carriers and quietly spread the disease without any warning. Your example Lushen of a flock with no birds brought in, that has been without the disease, that suddenly finds themselves with the disease, is very plausible. All it takes is one wild type to land on one of the aviaries and come into contact with the flock or leave bird droppings behind. And I fear this is how a lot of breeders find themselves with it amongst their birds. I like to hope that if there is a vaccine that works that it becomes part of a quarantine program.
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trabots
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by trabots » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:48 am

A few bits of information about PBFD:

PBFD can only infect birds in the nest.

Adult and fledged birds' immune systems can fend off the disease.

PBFD tests show only that a bird has antibodies for the virus not whether it actually has the disease. If you tested all the birds in your healthy flock you would have some test positive.

Birds infected in the nest can go on to fledge healthy but then continue to shed virus.

The virus can remain viable in nest box or wild nest materials for years. Wild birds can year after year use the same nest hole and produce diseased birds every year but remain uninfected themselves.

Many 'pied' birds are actually PBFD infected and in my experience do not last very long.

It is found in the wild in Oz especially with lorikeets. Rainbow lorikeets infected often leave the nest unable to fly as it stunts the growth of their primary flights. These birds are called 'runners' and are quickly eliminated by ravens, magpies or whatever. Ones that do fledge then go on to moult in 'pied' type (yellow) feathers in places. Many eventually kick the disease but may or may not be virus shedders.

Despite the PBFD lorikeets which I mistakenly aquired as 'pieds' coming into my yard over the years I have never had an infection in my breeding. If it is any comfort however, I no longer have lorikeets and no longer breed birds at the same location nor with any of their old nest boxes.

Other than the suspicious ratty looking 'pied' IRN that has been posted, I have never seen or heard of PBFD in IRNs.

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Skyes_crew
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:17 am

That is why I compared it to HIV vs AIDS. A bird can have the virus present without actually having PBFD. Just like a human can be HIV positive without having full blown AIDS. The test for birds actually tests for the circovirus not PBFD per se. And maybe that's where the problem lies. The birds that carry the virus with no outward appearance of the virus continue to spread it. Immunosuppressed birds, and nestlings are highly susceptible to it. And it's been shown that the virus is resistant to all disinfectants and can remain for years. So where does it end? When the virus rears its ugly head? When the breeder stops throwing the occasional healthy chick? By then hundreds of birds may have been infected. SC2 (sulphur crested cockatoo's) are very popular here. They are also highly susceptible to this disease. It's how it originated on this island. It was then passed to a lovebird breeders stock. And then some of his stock was sold to another breeder. It happened so fast. They lost thousands of lovebirds. And maybe you haven't seen it in an IRN, but is it really such a big leap to think it could happen? Almost 40 of Australia's wild bird types have it present now. It's found on every continent. There have got to be better control measures in place for the sake of the birds. We're ultimately killing our feathered friends.
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by MissK » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:35 am

My two cents are here, along with my loud proclamation that I know little, if anything, specifically about bird health - you could fit what I know into a nutshell and have room left for the nut.

That said, I do have a few decades experience keeping a variety of animals. I have long been on the holistic bandwagon, feeling that the animal who lives with the basics covered - excellent feed, super-clean quarters, mental and physical exercise, natural urges satisfied, variety of experiences, companionship, proper sleep, and even (depending on the species) love -that animal will be in the best condition to look after itself, healthwise, barring extreme incident. It will have the strongest immune system it can. In contrast, I also believe that an animal who does not get the above will be susceptible to disease, regardless of vaccination and medication.

I don't mean you could take your animal and put it down to play with someone else's sick animal for a week and expect it not to have any incident. I do mean, however, that simply vaccinating an animal or keeping it away from openly sick individuals is not going to ensure it stays healthy. The vaccine, after all, is a cue for the animal to protect itself. If the animal hasn't got the internal resources it needs, through having been shortchanged in it's care, the vaccine is a waste. Diseases exist in the environment and in seemingly healthy animals all over the world as well.

Too, I believe it is folly to assume that animals have not been exposed to, and do not possibly carry, a great variety of ills, simply because they don't have a history, test positive, or show effect. Simply, some animals are more successful than others. I wholeheartedly endorse quarantine, if only for the reason that the animal in question, deprived of it's (we assume) excellent routine may show sign of or succumb to internal organisms that cause it no trouble in the prior situation. We use quarantine to weed out the active phase of a disease, and may even look to that experience to weed out weaker individuals as well.

To assume a quarantine facility itself is inherently disease free, however, seems unreasonable to me. As any other highly trafficked area, a quarantine facility will have hosted innumerable diseases, active or passive. I would as soon set my bird to play in a freshly cleaned quarantine facility as I would an IRN-infested park. You may protest that a quarantine facility is kept rigorously cleaned, but I would suggest that rigorously does not mean effectively. Time and again we read that this or that pathogen is resistant to disinfection or persists in the environment despite all efforts. We need not even discuss accidental cross-contamination, as the contamination walks right in the front door, on the bodies of the quarantined individuals, themselves. If you look at it this way, Hawaii's procedure actually makes sense. It potentially sacrifices the few individuals in the home in place of routing every individual through a clearing house of disease- the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.

Thus, my two cents (now a dollar fifty) say do test, do quarantine, do question the source of your birds, but also understand those procedures are precautions only, not a magic bullet. The reasonable approach is to reject obvious sources of trouble and take care of your own business. Take time to investigate and ensure the source of your birds is beyond reproach. See how the animals are really living. Their environment, feed, and lifestyle are as much a part of them as their physical attributes. It's what has made them what they are when you go to look and buy. While you're at it, review your own husbandry practices. There is little sense bringing home a perfect animal, from a perfect situation, if you do not follow up and do your part.

Every animal keeper must find his own place and decide for himself at which point precaution becomes paranoia, at which point the burden of care outweighs the risk of disease. I'm not here to say how far anyone must go, or where they should buy their birds, but more to put some perspective in it. Diseases are, in fact, everywhere.

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clawnz
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by clawnz » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:27 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psittacine ... er_disease
Above is a link I found that gives a break down.
Sorry I was referring to The Eastern Rosella not Rainbow Lorikeet in my above comments.
I think there is only one incidence of Lorikeets surviving in the wild here and that was a flock on Aucklands Northshore which I think DOC got rid of as they pose a threat to our Tui. As they take nectar that people were putting out for the Tui.

I am sure it is not just passed in the nest as the link agrees it can be shed to other birds.
I did forget to say that baby and young birds are more prone to this.
I was also under the impression that it does not readily cross species.

The SC2 flock living around the Port Waikato (around 400 birds) area has PBFD in it for sure. And going back to when mate had the SC2 with PDFD, the guy he bought it off was taking baby birds from the nest and some of these were exported. They were tested clear before shipping.
I talked to customs and DOC to see why this was being allowed.
Here is a pic showing the one feather that got me to think things were not right with this young bird. And why I did a bit of study. I do not have any of other photos except of it's poohs. By that time I knew something was wrong and the first vet said 'No he's fine'? Second vet said not to panic there are things we can do? I know what that was! Take mates money. Before he had to put him down.
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:17 pm

If it can't cross species, then how is it that a disease that used to affect a handful of species now affects 38 out of 50 native species. And According to that Wikipedia article, there are two ways of transmitting this disease to flock members so it is not isolated to nestlings from parents but as I said, through feather dust, feces, and crop secretions. So contamination is even easier than I first thought. Also in reading that article I see that there are two tests available. One more sensitive than the other. Maybe the OP did not use a sensitive enough test to detect low levels present and stress brought it to the forefront when the bird was shipped.
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clawnz
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by clawnz » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:17 pm

Skyes_crew wrote:If it can't cross species, then how is it that a disease that used to affect a handful of species now affects 38 out of 50 native species. And According to that Wikipedia article, there are two ways of transmitting this disease to flock members so it is not isolated to nestlings from parents but as I said, through feather dust, feces, and crop secretions. So contamination is even easier than I first thought. Also in reading that article I see that there are two tests available. One more sensitive than the other. Maybe the OP did not use a sensitive enough test to detect low levels present and stress brought it to the forefront when the bird was shipped.

Thank you Skyes_crew.
I did not say 'it does not cross species' above though! I said it is not known to cross species readily.
If it did we would have it running rampant here in NZ.

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Skyes_crew
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:10 pm

My mistake for misunderstanding :)
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Procrastinator
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Procrastinator » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:23 pm

Greetings one and all

My apologies for my absence

Much appreciation to all thoes who have contributed to this thread and im hoping that some see the bigger picture.
Reading through the post made by some of the members made me think even more and it seems to me that some of the member are in denial about this topic. The post made by some of the participant hold a very strong arguement which give me assurance that im not TALKING BULLSHIT as some may think.
bennjamin wrote:Maybe you should be telling all here on the forum who has the problem in SA and where did he source the birds from in Australia
To me i feel that naming and shaming bird breeder would just cause unnecessary problems.i think if you name was mentioned you wouldnt be to happy with me either.

Johan- The birds where sent directly to SA. You mentioned that PFBD has a 30 day incubation period.Did it ever strike you that PFBD could lie dormant in the body for several yeah before actualy kicking in.
Many thanks shown to LUSHEN1600 for using HIV/AIDS as an example
molossus wrote:I have a tendency to froth at the mouth and rather keep silent at this subject. But I will interject my own two cents:
It all boils down to honesty and integrity.
HI Molossus I admire you for coming out with that.The probem with MOST breeder today is that breeding birds have all become a competition.Theres no more honesty and integrity in breeding birds.We have many breeders trying to put other breeders down as you mentioned some will even go as low as cutting orignal rings of the birds and are placing fake rings on birds .By you frothing at the mouth and keeping silent u cause no harm to anyone accept yourself.I was following a link earliar and i felt disheartened while reading the post.

Ive been an observer of this forum for a very long time and there are just a set number of breeder who are willing to help other out(yourself included) and on the other hand u have thoes who are just there to give that 2cent jst to say that they where part of the discussion.So now u ask yourself is it realy worht it to keep silent?

I take my hat out to thoes who have contributed to this disscussion (Skyes_crew mainly)and although some of us may have drifted of the topic the posted that where made still made alot of sense and may still help us now or in the future.

MANY THANKS
Procrastinator

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Skyes_crew
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Skyes_crew » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:07 pm

I've never been one to keep silent procrastinator....it may not always make me the most popular person. But I'm curious by nature. I've also been snubbed more times than I can count in the mutations/genetics threads. I've posted many questions or comments that have gone unanswered. I've got three things against me right off the bat. I'm a woman, I'm American, and I'm not a breeder. But it's ok. They don't bother me. The ones that do bother to speak to me and answer my questions are the only ones who deserve my respect. The rest live in their own little world.
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Ring0Neck
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:26 pm



The Good the Bad & the Ugly !

Ive been an observer of this forum for a very long time and there are just a set number of breeder who are willing to help other out(yourself included) and on the other hand u have thoes who are just there to give that 2cent jst to say that they where part of the discussion.


The Good
Contributions to discussions even a Yes/ No is appreciated.
We welcome all observers and most posts i do write in such a way to make sense for the next person reading it.

The Bad & Ugly
However, The Judgemental Observers that pick out mistakes just to make themselves feel better (mistakes happen when trying to solve a problem of any kind) and if problem is solved, they quietly acquire the solution and attach it to "I know".
On the way to a solution humans try things till they find one that fits...all the other tries we stamp them mistakes/wrongs instead we should look at them as the road to the solution.
Few are willing to take the road to a solution (to tarnish their status) as it looks to the observers that you are human and no one knows everything.

As far as the main subject PBFD
This subject was opened in a contraversial way, almost paranoic certainly not intended to be educational :roll:
As far as facts: Over a decade of breeding birds and after hundreds of birds bought from diff. breeders from all over the country i've had 0 casualties to PBF disease.
I am all for Breeder education and just because it did not happen to me does not mean i will ignore or be ignorant to the potential threat.
But pointing a finger to a country is annoying to say the least.

I joined this forum to learn & make friends with the same passion as myself but that will not stop me in saying what i feel is right just because i might lose a friend or i don't go with the flow.


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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:18 am

I like jokes !!

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sheyd
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Re: "PBFD" - Feather and Beak

Post by sheyd » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:04 pm

About 6 months ago I had heard (through the internet/FB) that there was an outbreak of PBFD down south- obviously no names were named but- it was suggested that everyone buying birds from interstate ect use caution and have birds tested and quarantined as part of procedure.

Have not heard a word about it since.

I have come across one bird (10 yrs ago) that was affected- in the end it was euthed - it was a Sulfur Crested Cockatoo that was someone's pet.

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