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sheyd
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thankyou

Post by sheyd » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:57 am

Thankyou to everyone who participated :)
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:45 am

Shey,
I see no edged pattern. (sorry)
If there is edged the daylight pics will show it better.
Do the flight first 2-3 feathers look brown to you? (open wing) if so it's cinnamon

bears a strong resemblance to Kappa's Deep Green in the pics with the flash-


most pics of green birds taken in the dark with flash would be very similar and it'd be very hard to pic any differences between them.


take a 1 minute video of the bird and upload it, if not email it to me i can put it up.
i think we should test the idea of using video to identify a bird, as we can see pics give us too much variation...


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sheyd
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:09 am

thanks
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:06 pm

thanks
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Re: ID Please

Post by Kappa » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:29 am

Hi Shey,
I have to say that the resemblance to my deep green is uncanny. The faded blue in the tail is the same as what my bird shows. As we have discussed to true phenotype of my bird is still up in the air. I know it's deep, but is it also misty? I think you're in the same boat. We have some test breeding ahead of ourselves to keep us occupied.
Kappa

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sheyd
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:18 pm

.
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by Johan S » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:59 pm

sheyd wrote:He really is beautiful (took more pics today if you're interested) I love his colour.
Please share. :D I'm leaning towards deep green too, but would like some more pics.

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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:43 am

.
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by Kappa » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:32 am

Shey,
The more I read and hear about the misty, the more I am convinced that my cock bird maybe misty. I was looking at him in low light conditions, and as Lee mentioned, the bronze effect is more evident, even to the naked eye. Do you get the same happen with your bird?
Kappa.

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Re: ID Please

Post by madas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:58 am

To add some confusion. :D

http://www.osnanet.de/markus.ehrenbrink ... diaer.html

He ist still unsure if Khaki is the as misty.

greetings.

madas

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Re: ID Please

Post by Kappa » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:31 am

Madas,
You're killing me here. It's a case of one step forward two steps back. We will get to the bottom of this one way or another.
Kappa.

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sheyd
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:47 pm

.
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sheyd
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:58 pm

.
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by madas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:21 pm

sheyd wrote:
molossus wrote:The Khaki and the Slaty are in my humble opinion, an allele of Misty. The potential of this mutation has yet to unravel since most collectors look for bright and eye catching colors. this attitude has caused the mutation to practically disappear here at home.
don't you guys make the same mistake.

Sad to hear- I've been looking at Markus's birds ever since you & Johan thought my Edged hen maybe Misty (still don't know if she is or not)- and I must say from what I've seen, that it is a very beautiful mutation in its own right.

Went looking through my pics that I have of her and found the second one- from memory it was taken in the evening- does this count as bronzing?
Image
Image
Sorry this bird isn't the same as in the first pics. She has a green leg band. the one in the first pics doesn't. :D

madas

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Re: ID Please

Post by Johan S » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:09 am

sheyd wrote:Johan- I am thinking that Kappa's Deep Green may be a Misty instead- Is there anyway to try and prove/disprove this before any birds are bred (and proven or not through Blue offspring)? Wouldn't Willy's Deep Blues be displaying Misty characteristics- or are they already?
Shey, the best way I know of will be by breeding to blue and also trying to get DF. Also, I'm not very clued up on misty. Have only ever seen them in four collections. So I repeat mostly what others have told me. Lee is the one with experience in this regard.

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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:32 am

.
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sheyd
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:37 am

Thankyou Lee and Johan- you guys have been so helpful- without you I'd have never known.

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Re: ID Please

Post by madas » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:55 am

Hi sheyd,

this bird

Image

and this bird

Image

are not one and the same bird.

The first one has a black under beak, dark nails, and no leg band

Picture removed by request (moderator)


and the second one has a green leg band, light nails and lighter feets and a red/brown/black under beak (typical cinnamon).

Picture removed by request (moderator)


Perhaps my eyes see more then yours. :(

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sheyd
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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:05 am

.
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by madas » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:16 am

sheyd wrote:Okay- first off I never said those two were the same birds :lol: The op bird is my Newest bird! (got him Monday)

The bird with the leg band is my Edged hen (had her for just over 2 months now). Hope this clears things up :) (oh and btw she doesn't have a black lower mandible- it's brownish- but then if you read where I said that that was taken in the evening then you could account for the colour that you see there..as well as her leg band)

If you go back and read the thread it will make more sense to you 8)
Then i must have missed the topic change from the misty bird to the cinnamon edged one. :)

Sorry.

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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:09 pm

Lee I have sent you a pm
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by sheyd » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:38 pm

Johan- have sent you a pm
Last edited by sheyd on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Please

Post by Kappa » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:41 pm

Hi everyone,
For those in the know, and to those who are also trying to unravel the difference between misty and khaki. What is your opinion ?

I have been trying to gather some information on the misty and khaki and have found it to be a confusing undertaking. I have found that some breeders say that the two are the same mutation, just that misty is the new name, replacing khaki. Others seem to feel that they are different and and record their breeding results accordingly.

I have emailed some photos to Markus, to get his opinion, but I have not received a reply as yet.

Sorry to hijack your thread Shey, but I think that this may also be something that may interest you now.

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Re: thankyou

Post by sheyd » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:57 pm

not sure Kappa- best to ask Markus himself- GL cheers

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Re: thankyou

Post by trabots » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:34 pm

Misty and Khaki are both incomplete dominant are they not? If so where are the DF birds in these mutations? I previously bred Khaki or 'Jade' Rainbow lorikeets. Interestingly there were marked variances in some SF Khakis in the darkness of the greens. The DF Khakis didn't vary, being slightly darker than a Grey Green. SF Khaki retains structural colours, the blue head and belly being very attractive, DF birds lose the blues. There are images of these in Terry Martin's book.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:27 pm

clear blue heads
bring one to my place this weekend, wanna have a look at it or email me a pic :wink:

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Re: thankyou

Post by madas » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:22 pm

Hi sheyd,

can you please explain why you have edited all your posts here?
So the whole thread makes no sence. :(

madas

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Re: thankyou

Post by sheyd » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Hi madas- until I know more about this mutation I can't really participate.
cheers

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Re: thankyou

Post by Kappa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:09 am

Hi everyone,
I have received a reply form Markus, and it makes for interesting reading.
He states that after many years of breeding misty and khaki mutations he has determined that they are infact different mutations, as they inherit differently.

He mentions that the khaki is as the dark green and has a incomplete dominant dark factor, and the misty is co- dominant. He says that his breeding results of blue khaki to blue khaki, produce a greyish offspring (mauve.). However, after many attempts he cannot achieve the same mauve bird when breeding with misty to misty.

So this begs the question, is the Oz deep mutation actually a variety of khaki?

It is not the first time that I have read on this forum that not only the Oz deep, but also the SA deep, greatly share characteristics of the misty. Since misty and khaki have a very similar phenotype, it would be easy to understand the oversite. We may have been dealing with khaki all along.

This new information does answer some of the questions I had and clears up some of the confusion also. I hope that others find it useful as well.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Kappa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:35 am

Hi Shey,
Keep in mind that the best education is through participation, so please, stay involved. We might not all have the answers, but together we can achieve more than on our own.

By the way, I forgot to mention in my last post that I have photos of khakis form Markus which I will up load soon.
Cheers.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:41 am

Hi Kappa,

Thanks for sharing, this is great info.
Just on your question:
...breeding results of blue khaki to blue khaki, produce a greyish offspring (mauve.).

So this begs the question, is the Oz deep mutation actually a variety of khaki?

If you read what you have written, you also give the answer to your Q in your statement above.
No, it can not be, because Oz deep X Oz Deep does not give you Greyish/Mauve only with Eu Coblats you can get the mauve.

We could ask: Is Khaki an allele of Dark?

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Re: thankyou

Post by sheyd » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:15 am

Interesting Kappa- thanks for taking the time to write him, and for sharing. Did he say anything about your bird?

Ben, I'm thinking the same thing- Khaki may be an allele of Dark.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Kappa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:24 am

Hi Ben,
You're absolutely right, I realised what I did after I posted. I got carried away with the new information without thinking it through properly.
So if we pose the question, is khaki an allele of dark, then is may be plausible that misty is an allele of deep?

Shey, unfortunately he did not remark on what his thoughts of what my bird may be.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:54 am

Kappa wrote: So if we pose the question, is khaki an allele of dark, then is may be plausible that misty is an allele of deep?
We could but we fall short in blue series. a misty blue's pics and description is not same as deepblue IMO
the deepblue color is rather vibrant somewhat
http://psittacula-world.com/EN/Mutation ... -Misty.htm
I can see where you coming from though; the green series is so alike,
I believe we need more data before we can conclude more then we already know.
Perhaps this breeding season will be kind to us to give us more to work with.
There's a few breeding pairings from diff. breeders at work help us understand this mutation better after this season.
All i want for X-Mas (in July) is a deep grey emerald ;

Looking forward to see those pics Kappa
83IV

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Re: thankyou

Post by Kappa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:07 pm

hi everyone,
here are the photos of Markus's Khakis as promised.
green khaki hen
Image

green khaki cock no flash

Image

green khaki cock no flash

Image

green khaki cock with flash
Image

blue khaki cocks

Image

blue khaki and df blue khaki
Image

i hope they help.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:13 pm

Thanks Kappa,
Very interesting bird these Khaki, wish i could get some
From the pics that we have seen it seems that Khaki is not the same mutation as Misty.



Someone asked me to post these pics
He wants to know if the bird is a Misty? or something else?
Image

Image

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Re: thankyou

Post by Johan S » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:49 pm

Kappa wrote: blue khaki cocks

Image

blue khaki and df blue khaki
Image
This is a very interesting topic, but to be honest I think we are a long way from figuring this puzzle out. I have more questions than answers at this stage. A couple of thoughts

1) @Kappa, the part above I highlighted in red I think you might have wrong. From Markus's website and the labels, those are actually cobalt khaki and mauve khaki. Which brings me to point number 2.

2) Those birds really do not look at all like what I would have imagined a cobalt khaki and mauve khaki would look like. The same thing happened with local birds in SA where violet "misty" (khaki?) appears like a stock/standard faded/palish cobalt in normal light. What concerns me about the pics is that the top pic of blue khakis seems to be the same, or very similar birds to the very bottom pic of the mauve khaki. This to me is so unexpected that I suspect we might be looking at a mislabeled pic.

3) The bottom right bird seems almost the same as a normal blue. Very unexpected. Does the khaki mutation completely nullify the effect of the dark mutation? Why are the back of the head, which seems unaffected by khaki, still the normal blue phenotype and not darker like we expect for cobalt/mauve? :?:

4) The DD khaki blue proves that khaki and dark mutations are at different loci. They can not be alleles of the same locus.

5) Are there pictures of DF khaki?

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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:42 am

molossus wrote:Ringo ,
what is the parentage? what has this bird bred ...ie any visually similar offspring ?
looks like clear feet??? more pics if you can.
Molossus,

You have seen this bird in pics/email.
He has no history on the bird.
I don't think the breeder that has this bird is in OZ, i don't know him he asked me to post these pics for him.
hopefully he will comment here on it.

Johan
See his pics at the website Madas has posted earlier (his webpage?) maybe it'll help
http://www.osnanet.de/markus.ehrenbrink ... diaer.html

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Re: thankyou

Post by Kappa » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:53 am

Hi Johan,
I have re-read the email from Markus, and the blue khakis are dark factor. My mistake.
I will email him again and find out if he has them in normal blue and in df khaki, or if they all naturally carry the dark factor or if this is something he has bred into his khaki lines.
Below is a copy of his email reply to me, see what you think.

after a long time of breeding the colour "khaki" I can told you that
this colour is not the same inheritance as "misty".
In my opinion it is the same inheritance as "dark green" (incomplete
dominant darkfactor).
All the birds in the blue line have also a very intensive grey/black
pigmentation extremely on the wings accentuated by flashlight.
If I breed with an 1,0 khakiblue x 0,1 khakiblue pair I got a greyish
bird (mauve)!
This is not a colour which i could breed with an 1,0 mistyblue x 0,1
mistyblue or think you differently?

A long time ago I breed a lot of *Indian Ring-necked Parakeet* in
"misty". I named them "lindgrün /(lime green)/".
In 2003 J.Bastiaan came to me to make a few photos of my lime green
birds. He told me that the right name of this colour is
"misty"(Co-dominant).
I have never breed from a misty blue pair greyish offsprings!!

P.S.: Sorry for my very bad English, I hope you can understand my
detailed description

Many regards,
Markus

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Re: thankyou

Post by madas » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:19 am

Johan S wrote:
Kappa wrote: blue khaki cocks

Image

blue khaki and df blue khaki
Image
This is a very interesting topic, but to be honest I think we are a long way from figuring this puzzle out. I have more questions than answers at this stage. A couple of thoughts

1) @Kappa, the part above I highlighted in red I think you might have wrong. From Markus's website and the labels, those are actually cobalt khaki and mauve khaki. Which brings me to point number 2.

2) Those birds really do not look at all like what I would have imagined a cobalt khaki and mauve khaki would look like. The same thing happened with local birds in SA where violet "misty" (khaki?) appears like a stock/standard faded/palish cobalt in normal light. What concerns me about the pics is that the top pic of blue khakis seems to be the same, or very similar birds to the very bottom pic of the mauve khaki. This to me is so unexpected that I suspect we might be looking at a mislabeled pic.

3) The bottom right bird seems almost the same as a normal blue. Very unexpected. Does the khaki mutation completely nullify the effect of the dark mutation? Why are the back of the head, which seems unaffected by khaki, still the normal blue phenotype and not darker like we expect for cobalt/mauve? :?:

4) The DD khaki blue proves that khaki and dark mutations are at different loci. They can not be alleles of the same locus.

5) Are there pictures of DF khaki?
Hi Johan,

the DD khaki blue is nothing more then a khaki(df) blue. This is a special "notation" of Markus because it should address a possible linkage between khaki and the true dark factor. But the bird in question isn't carrying the true dark factor for sure. Same goes for the D khaki blue. It is khaki(ef) blue. The khaki birds were combined with violet factor in 2010 for the first time. Until now no combination with the true dark factor for my knowledge.

This is the same bird on an exhibition in Germany in 2009:

Image

Image

here with khaki(df) green

Image

madas

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Re: thankyou

Post by Johan S » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:53 pm

Thanks Madas, your post clears up all my questions/concerns. I hope Markus plans to put khaki (df) x dark (df) soon. Personally, I have a strange feeling we should be looking at khaki (df) x grey (df) too.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Kappa » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:08 am

Hi everyone,
Please correct me if I'm wrong. After reading Markus's email again, and information from Madas, what I think Markus is tring to explain is that the khaki has a different phenotypes in hetro and in homo forms. As is seen with the dark factor birds.
However, in his breeding result to date he has not been able to reproduce these results with the misty. So from this, is it correct to say that with the misty there is no visual difference in the phenotype in sf and df, as can occur in other dominant mutations like grey?
Is this consistent with the results others are reporting with the misty?

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Re: thankyou

Post by Sanzaf1 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:58 am

Someone asked me to post these pics
He wants to know if the bird is a Misty? or something else?
Image

Image
[/color][/quote]

Thanks ringoneck for posting my pictures

Ive been browsing through the net and ive found that my bird looks alot like a misty blue cinamon.....but the only that that is confusing me is that my bird has darker flight feathers... would that indicate that my bird may actually be a "misty COBALt cinamon" ?

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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:07 am

One thing I am certain of;
your bird is not cinnamon

This is a cinnamon
Note; the flight feathers are brown.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/cindy.jpg


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Re: thankyou

Post by Mad Max » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:50 pm

I agree , but why are his birds flight feathers so dark .Stunning bird

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Re: thankyou

Post by Sanzaf1 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:28 am

hi all i trust all is well my apologies for the late comment
Ring0Neck wrote:One thing I am certain of;
your bird is not cinnamon
up til today im stil confused on what it is

thanks mad max....that flights are also messing wid my head

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Re: thankyou

Post by Sanzaf1 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:54 am

Hi all
A college of mine came and paid me a visit today and he thinks that this bird looks alot like a reccesive cinnamon

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Re: thankyou

Post by trabots » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:48 am

No such thing as a recessive Cinnamon. By definition Cinnamon is a sex-linked mutation.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Sanzaf1 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:35 pm

Hi Trabots
Sjack bastiaan has a picture of a reccesive green cinnamon in his book .
So how can there be no such thing, n i also believe that a reccesive violet cinnamon was bred in belgium

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Re: thankyou

Post by madas » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:41 am

Sanzaf1 wrote:Hi Trabots
Sjack bastiaan has a picture of a reccesive green cinnamon in his book .
Hi,

these birds were wrong marked as rec. cinnamon in Sjacks first book. He has correct his mistake in the second book. They are listed under bronze fallow.
As Willy said a cinnamon will always inherit sex-linked rec. This mistake in labeling these birds as rec. cinnamon was done by only judging from phenotype (which is showing cinnamon Features for sure). But a mutation is not only discribed by its resulting phenotype. The kind of inheritance plays a big role in naming them in a correct way.
Sanzaf1 wrote: i also believe that a reccesive violet cinnamon was bred in belgium
Are you refering to the birds breed by Mr. Goessens? Still unknown what kind of mutation they are or if they are a mix of two or more well known mutations. But bronze fallow and cleartail could be in the mix (perhaps NSLino as well).

madas

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Re: thankyou

Post by Johan S » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:26 am

Sanzaf1 wrote: i also believe that a reccesive violet cinnamon was bred in belgium
And South Africa. If by recessive cinnamon violet you mean the mutation currently referred to as 'bronze' fallow, which I believe will have to change again.

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Re: thankyou

Post by trabots » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:06 am

Sjack bastiaan has a picture of a reccesive green cinnamon in his book .
So how can there be no such thing
The Bastiaans also has several images in their books of TurquoiseBlues which are in fact IndigoBlues, a different Parblue mutation. They also says that there is no difference in phenotype between heterozygous and homozygous Turquoise birds when it has been proved conclusively that is not the case. As time moves on and more is learned, most books on the subject become out of date and inaccurate on some subjects. That is why the Bastiaans have now published a second book with updated information. Do not believe everything you read.

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Re: thankyou

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:46 am

Willy

We have been working very hard in SA to sort out the Bronze Fallow issue. This issue was discussed many a time between Recio, Stefan, Johan and myself. When Sjack visited SA 5 years ago he told most of us that our Bronze Fallow birds are to light in phenotype compared to his. I then decided to import a '07 Bronze Fallow/blue cock from him, what a stunning bird. Difficult breeder but after 2 seasons he excepted a '97 indigoblue/bronze fallow hen (bought locally but imported from Sjack Bastiaan). The pair produced an indigoblue/bronze fallow and blue bronze fallow. Attached the pics. Decide for yourself, but imo Bronze Fallow can exist if someone can proof the relationship with NSLino. The homozygous Bronze Fallow and Nslino birds I have tested showed no link and resulted in split birds instead of an intermediate phenotype.

imported Bronze Fallow/blue Bastiaan cock
Image

blue Bronze Fallow baby and her imported father
Image

Regards

Tienie

Mad Max
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Location: Nigel , South Africa

Re: thankyou

Post by Mad Max » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:53 am

Stunning birds Tienie
The blue looks edged or am I wrong
Robert

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Ring0Neck
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Re: thankyou

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:50 am

Robert,
That's the phenotype of Bronze Fallow, it just looks as if edged is in there doesn't it?


Mad Max
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:12 am
Location: Nigel , South Africa

Re: thankyou

Post by Mad Max » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:47 am

It certainly looks Edged . I love the blue , nice and soft blue with white . I want one :P

Carr.birds
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:13 pm
Location: Bloemfontein South Africa

Re: thankyou

Post by Carr.birds » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:01 am

Ben & Robert

Ben you are spot on, no edged just "bronze fallow". IMO dun or pale fallow. Pretty birds but difficult breeders unlike the SA line that reproduce at 2 years.

Tienie

Johan S
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: thankyou

Post by Johan S » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:53 pm

Mad Max wrote:It certainly looks Edged . I love the blue , nice and soft blue with white . I want one :P
Robert, you can add cinnamon to that list as well. Those three mutations have very close phenotypes.

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