Paint dot net users

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:15 pm

What do you make of these results?? I used paint dot net... Hue 155 Saturation 150
First is my violet
Second is my blue

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:19 pm

Sky

Good Job

it'd be good if you could also display the original pic

The blue color is very bright, did you use flash when you took the pic?

83IV

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:36 pm

Original photos below. No flash but sunlight on both if them.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:02 am

On the second bird- it can be from the camera and or light (flash for instance) making the bird appear greener than what it actually is- it doesn't have to be in direct sunlight to get that effect- take this pic for example:

(Shade)

But really this is closer to his colour:
(Shade)

(same bird in my avatar- but taken in the sun)

Can't comment on the first bird- but I imagine it would be similar. Also, It does give a better feel when you have all the birds in the one shot rather than individually.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:25 am

Getting the two of them in a picture is a feat lol. I do have this one. Taken in the house, no direct sunlight. And for the record, Skye was not trying to eat Cyrano

Use Cyrano my Alex as a reference in the middle.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:07 pm

2nd bird is blue

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:02 pm

I was confused by the results on the blue because i thought it should have been more red than bright pink. The one I'm most curious about is the violet. The parents of my violet were DF Violet Cobalt cock - DF violet Hen. The dark factor is relatively new here in Hawaii and as such I don't have a reference.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:49 pm

It's hard to take pics of a (normal)Blue without the colour being adjusted automatically or otherwise- just take a pic then hold up the image on the camera to the bird- you'll see what I mean lol- also, being inside changes their appearance of their blue colour to what it would look like being outside.

Anyhow, with the first bird, from the parent info given:
1.0 D blue violet(df)
x 0.1 blue violet(df)
% from all 1.0
50.0% 1.0 blue violet(df)
50.0% 1.0 D blue violet(df)
% from all 0.1
50.0% 0.1 blue violet(df)
50.0% 0.1 D blue violet(df)

the top bird could be one of two possibilities out of Three- df Violet or Dark Violet- but I am leaning towards Dark Violet.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:14 pm

your bird is at least df violet.
i'm not familiar with pics taken indoors, but i tend to think it is df violet sf cobalt looking at the second pic with alex.
so there's only 2 posibilities what it can be.

ask breeder if he has pics of all young, it'll be easy to figure it out this way.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:37 pm

Thank you Shey

I see what you mean about the blue not looking blue in the pic. That must be the cause of the skewed results then. I saw that bright pink and I was like...there is NO way Skye is an emerald

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:42 pm

Thank you Ben

Ill see if I can get a group shot from the breeder. Is there a way to test breed to prove the dark factor?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:28 am

Is there a way to test breed to prove the dark factor?

Easy enough.
Pair it to a normal blue

There can only be 2 phenoptypes from that pair
1. all sf violet blue - so they will all look the same.

or if it is df violet cobalt
about half of the young will be sf violets and the other half sf violet cobalt a different color to your sf violets slightly more purpleish

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:46 am

of course you are right Ben- had a brain fart

- the top bird can only be a dfViolet or Dark dfViolet- I choose dfViolet (if parent info is correct)- even though pics can be misleading- but here are some good pics showing some violets of various types thanks to Johan (scroll down)

http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=16734

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:38 am

The pic all the way at the bottom...the middle bird of johan's I guess most closely resembles mine. No matter how many birds I look at though, I never see one like mine with the head that is clearly much brighter in color. Is this something that will molt out?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:33 pm

Like to see how he looks outside- and possibly with the Blue if you can manage it lol - I know how it can be- my Pallid won't tolerate my Blue- so it is very tricky to get them in the same shot as each other.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:57 am

There are a couple of things to consider with these birds. Most notably, however, is which strains of dark (European vs SA) and which strains of violet (American vs European) are being compared? That will give sufficient variation that it will become near impossible to compare the birds.

That is a stunning bird and a very nice deep purple, none the less, but the pink feet and red lower mandible makes me wonder if we aren't dealing with something else as well. This looks like a hen to me.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:09 am

He is a DNA'd male. He was 4 months in this photo. He is 6 months now and his lower mandible is darkening but not black. His toe nails are very dark now with the pink feet. He is just starting his first molt so I'm curious to see the outcome. His primary and secondary flights as well as the flight covers have a distinct white edging around them. I wonder if he will molt that out. I will post more pics after his molt. Thanks to all who responded

I feel I am a bit closer to solving the mystery of my bird.

bennjamin · Post by **bennjamin** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:56 am

Johan S wrote:There are a couple of things to consider with these birds. Most notably, however, is which strains of dark (European vs SA) and which strains of violet (American vs European) are being compared? That will give sufficient variation that it will become near impossible to compare the birds.

That is a stunning bird and a very nice deep purple, none the less, but the pink feet and red lower mandible makes me wonder if we aren't dealing with something else as well. This looks like a hen to me.

Johan, what can you tell us about this red lower mandible and pink feet on this colour bird, why have you mentioned that ?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:31 am

bennjamin wrote:
Johan S wrote:There are a couple of things to consider with these birds. Most notably, however, is which strains of dark (European vs SA) and which strains of violet (American vs European) are being compared? That will give sufficient variation that it will become near impossible to compare the birds.

That is a stunning bird and a very nice deep purple, none the less, but the pink feet and red lower mandible makes me wonder if we aren't dealing with something else as well. This looks like a hen to me.
Johan, what can you tell us about this red lower mandible and pink feet on this colour bird, why have you mentioned that ?

Those are normally indicative of a mutation affecting melanin, sometimes even in splits birds. This is well known for recessive pied, but I've seen it in some of our split clearhead fallow offspring as well as other split fallow. I wouldn't be surprised if this bird carries a recessive mutant gene.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:00 pm

Johan S wrote:
bennjamin wrote:
Johan S wrote:There are a couple of things to consider with these birds. Most notably, however, is which strains of dark (European vs SA) and which strains of violet (American vs European) are being compared? That will give sufficient variation that it will become near impossible to compare the birds.

That is a stunning bird and a very nice deep purple, none the less, but the pink feet and red lower mandible makes me wonder if we aren't dealing with something else as well. This looks like a hen to me.
Johan, what can you tell us about this red lower mandible and pink feet on this colour bird, why have you mentioned that ?
Those are normally indicative of a mutation affecting melanin, sometimes even in splits birds. This is well known for recessive pied, but I've seen it in some of our split clearhead fallow offspring as well as other split fallow. I wouldn't be surprised if this bird carries a recessive mutant gene.

That being said Johan, what is the next step to figure this puzzle out? I haven't said anything to my breeder yet, who is also a close friend of mine, but would like to have all my ducks in a row before I bring this to him. If he does carry a recessive mutant gene, what bird should he be bred to and what would be the possible outcomes? Use split fallow for example...I've never had the pleasure to see one. Do you have pictures of what this outcome would look like? We don't have clearhead on the island so I know that is not a possibility. Rec pied could be a possibility. The contrast between the head and body originally had me thinking opaline. (That was just wishful thinking

) I'm very new to genetics, but I'm one of those people that once something catches my full interest I don't stop until I understand it completely. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on and this forum has helped a lot. I pick my breeders brain constantly

he's old school breeder though. He's been breeding ringnecks for 30 years. So a lot of the new things I learn, I bring back to him. We are both eager to learn a lot about the mutations that are not found here. So any assistance you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:50 pm

Skyes, those are a lot of questions! I'll retaliate with some of my own...

It is great that you are close friends with the original breeder. Perhaps you can take some pictures of the parents. Do they share some of the characteristics of your bird? Also, for your bird, are the feet really pink? Sometimes the light/camera can make it look lighter than it really is. What do the other offspring look like? What I would do depends on those answers. If the mom or a sister share the characteristics, I would start a line breeding experiment to try and bring the recessive mutation into a homozygous bird. As to no fallows in Hawaii; that would also depend. If some of the original birds were imported from Europe, I wouldn't put money on "clean" birds and wouldn't be surprised if some of them carry recessive mutations.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:53 am

I will be going out to my breeders place on Thursday and will take photos of the parents. There were 4 chicks in my birds clutch. Two hens and two cock birds. I chose my bird based on the unique contrast between his head and body. The other male didn't share the same trait. But one of the hens did. The remaining three birds from that clutch are in California now. I found that out today. I'm not sure if the original birds were from a European line because I'm almost positive that his original breeding stock is from the first violet breeder here in the states out of California. His name escapes me right now. I will find out tomorrow. As for my birds feet...they look pink to me. They are definitely different than my blues feet. I will post more info after my visit on Thursday. Have a good week

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:31 pm

Interested if you found out anything more?

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:04 pm

Ok...I was out at his place yesterday and here's what I know so far. The pair that produced my bird, DF Violet SF Cobalt Cock -DF Violet Hen produced two clutches this season. The first, my birds clutch of 4, and a second, three more birds. The pair has been breeding exclusively for 12 years. The father of my bird has the same contrasting head color as my bird except an even deeper darker purple. There were also two DNA'd male babies that had the contrasting head color. None of the hens had the contrast difference. I was unable to obtain a picture of the father because he was in a heavy molt and my friend asked if I could wait until he finished molting. I have to respect his wishes. I did however get a pic outdoors of hamlet. I brought him to my breeders with me to compare him to his dad. I had to clip a few of his flights just to be sure he wouldn't get loose...he's just started molting anyway. They'll come back quickly I hope. But the pic gives you more of an idea of his coloring in natural light.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:50 pm

Other pics

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:51 am

These last pictures really remind me of some cobalt violets we have in SA imported from Europe, that to my eyes look different from that darker, yet dullish American violet cobalts. Pictures of the parents would be great when they have passed their molt.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:07 pm

I will most definitely get pics as soon as they finish their molt.

I'm not sure how the European cobalt violet line was produced, but I know for a fact that the mother of my bird was one of the original violets produced in California by Gordon Hayes. In fact my friend has pics of the dark green cock bird that produced the first violet as well as the pic of my birds mom back as a baby. Ill see if he will let me borrow the photos. Maybe it's just the simple fact that his breeding pairs stay exclusive? I'm not sure, but all of his Violets are amazing.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:00 pm

sorry Melissa. Has been a long and busy/stressful last few days.

Beautiful bird you have there. I would have guessed Violet Cobalt (sfDark sfViolet) from the pics- though that maybe because he also has something else as well- Looking forward to pics of the parents

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:37 pm

Sorry shey...this thread got listed as read somehow and I didn't see your post.

At this point I am just happy to call him mine

I am a little bit over the mutations/genetics threads as I have made it clear in another thread on here. No offense against you because you've never been anything but nice to me. Always answering my questions...as well as johan and ben. I guess I will have to be content to learn genetics on my own. Ill see you over on Facebook maybe. Cheers and have a great weekend

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:49 pm

You've inspired me!! I pick up my Dark Violet cock (may also be DF Violet- breeder isn't sure) from the airport this Sunday- can't wait!!! I plan on pairing him with my Violet (possibly also Dark) Pallid for next year

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:54 pm

That's great!!

post pictures of him. I want to see him

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:59 am

I will for sure once he gets here

He is from a dfViolet dam and a Dark Violet sire- (I do realize) he could be a dfViolet instead of a Dark Violet, or be a Dark dfViolet- I paid for a Dark Violet so here's hoping I get one.. and if he has an extra violet gene, then that would just be a bonus lol. The breeder has been breeding birds a long time- he said that the phenotype looked the same as the sire- I just asked him to send me the darkest one (he had two for sale) lol.
I'll send you the link of his pics through pm in the meantime- I'll trust my own eyes when he gets here

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:07 am

and here he is!

The colour in these is 'bluer' than what he actually is- he is what one would call 'a purple bird'. Will take more pics of him tomorrow (:

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:15 am

Oh he's so handsome!!!! I see a lot of similarities to my bird in there. About a year old???

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:20 am

yeah, coming up to (a year). His colour is even better than I had imagined. I see some similarities there with yours- though the lower beak and the light feet are still a mystery (love to see the parents of yours).

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:45 am

What do you guys think of all my feathery kids

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:01 am

My girl i used to have Tiny

Mellow who was a friends - she escaped from her and flew away

Noodle boy

Peaches

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:10 pm

welcome to the world of uploading your own pics!

is the last bird (before the group shot) your late Cinnamon Green SL Edged hen?

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:42 am

Just a grey green cinnamon hen

not an edged bird

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:43 am

Here are a fwe of my cinnamon green edged girl though - bit tatty as she was moulting at the time.

Last pic was her male edged baby wing next to his normal sisters...

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:54 am

The mum is the bird in the pics in my previous post

Here is the dad, he is normal green, and both his parents were green as well :

http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=15564

Above is the forum asking the outcome of the babies, and were i gathered that the darker babies would be female (non edged birds) and the lighter would be male (and edged split for cinnamon).

Please dont tell me they both edged and could be either sex... I gave away the 3 as males and sold the one as female...!!!!

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:27 am

Here are 3 others of that clutch - all 4 babies.

One was slightly darker than the others which you cant pick up in the pictures but i could just tell myself.
Hence assuming the one was female, and 3 male.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:36 am

SCB 22 wrote:Just a grey green cinnamon hen not an edged bird

Oh, okay wasn't sure with the flash. Nice bird- I've always liked the look of that combo- and with Edged it's even better

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:38 am

oh goodness, ive never been overly fond of the grey green cinnamon... She was just a rescue that i took in till i could find her a good home... I only have the 6 in the group shot from before then...

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:43 am

SCB

I think you're right: "Hence assuming the one was female, and 3 male."

in the second pic, ouside, you can see the hen facing the oher way.
because of the flash the other pics do not help much detect edged features. hence Molossus's sf df question IMO.

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:59 am

I have asked the girl who has the female to try take some pics this evening of Bean (as she has been named), with her wings open with both flash and natural light, then i can post them tomorrow, for Molossus and everyone to take a look... Here is Bean a few months back, but they are not pics of her flights for us to see, most were taken with natural light :

Beans brother Pickle - taken a few days ago (please note, his lack of flights was not my doing, he came back from previous owner in this condition, yes, he has no tail either) couple with natural light a few with flash :