Dom Pied ~ Harlequin ~ with a twist

[Ring0Neck]

A breeder i know (hopefully can add to this conversation) has this Dom Pied hen.
I will list the 2 pics back in 2010 when young.
Please look carefully and see if there is another mutation in play.
I will update later with a recent pic of this bird.
** You'll get a nice surprise how the hen looks now.

[Carr.birds]

Ben

Without seeing or knowing the genetic make up of the parents I would say 2 possibilities are opaline or sl edged in combination with harlequin (dom pied)

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie,

It is quiet a good (expected answer)
Let's wait for some more.

[madas]

A breeder i know (hopefully can add to this conversation) has this Dom Pied hen.
I will list the 2 pics back in 2010 when young.
Please look carefully and see if there is another mutation in play.
I will update later with a recent pic of this bird.
** You'll get a nice surprise how the hen looks now.

These pics were posted some months back by John Shannon at the yahoo discussion Group.

The tail points to opaline. Furthermore the "edged pattern" which a lot of dom. pieds are showing (mainly in the flight feathers) is enhanced within this bird.
As said before opaline could do this job like seen in spangle opaline budgies.

So don't set us on tenterhooks. Please post the new pic.

madas

[Ring0Neck]

Madas That's the one.

The point i'm trying to make is this: young pics show as if the brid is edged.
If i was to show the pic below we would not consider all possibilities including edged.

The hen looks Spangle phenotype now !!!

[Johan S]

What a great bird! Would be nice if John could join us here. The hen will continue to change phenotype until she is four years old. Opaline is a slow acting mutation that takes quite a while to be fully expressed.

[Ring0Neck]

Molossus, i like it
here's another one of John's young pied that could support your theory (not sure if it is related or offspring to hen in Q)
hope that he will tell us more, but i assume it'd the same bloodline.

[Farzz1]

Hi
That bird might have not been paired to an opaline , because my assumption is that some of the cocks and hens in dominant pied carry the opaline gene? And is the saddleback not recessive to dominant pied? If this is so that could possibly rule out opaline but rather elevate towards dominant edge ?

Ths

[Farzz1]

Hi
On second thoughts that is a hen so defiantly opaline, but the twist probably lies in a combination of both I think opaline and dominant edge, opaline dominant edge dominant pied (spangle) I think?
Tks

[John Shannon]

I bet it is. probably a opaline er saddleback hen.

Hi this is john this is a Cock and the Blue 2010 Dom pied hen is his Dom Pied turq blue fathers sister

[Johan S]

Hi John, welcome to the forum!

[John Shannon]

Hi John, welcome to the forum!

In 2010 I bred a blue pied Cock to a Turq blue hen first clutch straight blues and turq blues and one Turq blue dom pied cock 'second clutch the blue dom pied hen and more blues , from two nests two pieds & five straight blue or turq blue.
The turq blue pied Cock in 2012 to a Violet green Hen pos/clearhead produced three dom pieds.
Ben could you add the picture I sent you of the nest mates and of the picture of the mother as Idont know how to add pictures yet.
Going to work now john

[Ring0Neck]

These 2 pics John?

[sheyd]

Spectacular looking bird! Welcome to the forum

[Ring0Neck]

Interesting to note that the young violet green pied does not have any violet in his tail, John was pointing that out... I'd say the pied mutation is responsible for that, or is it?
Will probably see some violet coming through after next couple of moults

[madas]

Interesting to note that the young violet green pied does not have any violet in his tail, John was pointing that out... I'd say the pied mutation is responsible for that, or is it?
Will probably see some violet coming through after next couple of moults

Sure? Any pic of the tail tip?

thx.

[Ring0Neck]

This is the pic from John, violet green pied male & turq. df violet

[John Shannon]

Hi John, welcome to the forum!

In 2010 I bred a blue pied Cock to a Turq blue hen first clutch straight blues and turq blues and one Turq blue dom pied cock 'second clutch the blue dom pied hen and more blues , from two nests two pieds & five straight blue or turq blue.
The turq blue pied Cock in 2012 to a Violet green Hen pos/clearhead produced three dom pieds.
Ben could you add the picture I sent you of the nest mates and of the picture of the mother as Idont know how to add pictures yet.
Going to work now john

thanks for the welcome Johan, shey, Ben and the forum members.

[John Shannon]

Hi John, welcome to the forum!

In 2010 I bred a blue pied Cock to a Turq blue hen first clutch straight blues and turq blues and one Turq blue dom pied cock 'second clutch the blue dom pied hen and more blues , from two nests two pieds & five straight blue or turq blue.
The turq blue pied Cock in 2012 to a Violet green Hen pos/clearhead produced three dom pieds.
Ben could you add the picture I sent you of the nest mates and of the picture of the mother as I don't know how to add pictures yet.
Going to work now john

thanks for the welcome Johan, shey, Ben and the forum members.

More ? than answers I have been told before that my Dominant pieds are from opaline (sex linked), but so far I have not bred any straight opaline hens from the Cocks of my Blue dom pied cock.This year I have two 2010 cocks and two 2011 cocks mated to straight hens to prove or disprove Opaline. Or is it Just Modifier genes with the Dominant pied gene. eg;turq,spangle,edged,the hard to explain saddleback or some hidden recessive influence.
john

[John Shannon]

Hi John welcome to the forum.
So the blue is older than the 'saddleback'. is the young cock of an opaline hen?
btw beautiful birds.

Yes she is an aunt and the the young cocks mother is the Violet green posted by ben ,so not opaline.

[Johan S]

Hope you can prove/disprove the presence of opaline. That is definitely something I'm curious about. Hope you have great success in the coming 2-4 months.

[madas]

Hi John welcome to the forum.
So the blue is older than the 'saddleback'. is the young cock of an opaline hen?
btw beautiful birds.

Yes she is an aunt and the the young cocks mother is the Violet green posted by ben ,so not opaline.

Hello John,

as asked in the yahoo discussion group. Is there any chance that your 0,1 violetgreen /blue is related to the 0,1 violetgreen /??? which was used in the very first breeding pair which then produced the first so called "saddleback"? If i am not wrong your violetgreen female showed some yellow spots in the "saddle" area. So perhaps she is carrying the modifier gen for the "saddlearea".
Furthermore i think you deal with two distinct modifiers. One for the "saddle" and one which is producing this incredible nice "spangle" pattern (probably opaline).

May i ask you what dom. pied pairs did you setup up for next season to determine the opaline gen? Perhaps you don't need all and waste one season.

thx.

madas

[John Shannon]

Hi John welcome to the forum.
So the blue is older than the 'saddleback'. is the young cock of an opaline hen?
btw beautiful birds.

Yes she is an aunt and the the young cocks mother is the Violet green posted by ben ,so not opaline.

Hello John,

as asked in the yahoo discussion group. Is there any chance that your 0,1 violetgreen /blue is related to the 0,1 violetgreen /??? which was used in the very first breeding pair which then produced the first so called "saddleback"? If i am not wrong your violetgreen female showed some yellow spots in the "saddle" area. So perhaps she is carrying the modifier gen for the "saddlearea".
Furthermore i think you deal with two distinct modifiers. One for the "saddle" and one which is producing this incredible nice "spangle" pattern (probably opaline).

May i ask you what dom. pied pairs did you setup up for next season to determine the opaline gen? Perhaps you don't need all and waste one season.

thx.

madas

Hi Madas
I will try a family tree as I do think the NJA blood line have hidden modifier genes as do the pieds.

Turq blue/ CH NJA 99 /25 + V green NJA 135/34 06 pos/CH (Parentage: Greygreen masking violet/CH cock to Turq blue) Produced 2008 V green hen JS 2.This is the hen that has those Yellow spots in 2013 molt at five years.
Pied matings

2010 Blue dom Dom pied to Turq blue hen (not of the NJA blood lines) produced my pieds blue hen and Turq blue cock.
And the 2 now mature cocks that a friend is test mating.

2011 Blue dom Dom pied to V green NJA 135/34 06 The result were disappointing Straight V green hen, Turq blue and Turq Violet cocks that I will test mate this season.

2012 Turq blue dom pied to V green JS 02: Produced three Dom pieds. Very pleasing result.

2013 Pied Matings

2010 Turq blue dom pied to V green JS 02
2010 Blue Dom Pied (spangle) hen to Mature Violet blue cock (not related to any of my other ringnecks)
I am looking forward to the next 2 to 4 months.

[Carr.birds]

Hi John

Sorry for not joining in the discussions after my initial remarks. (Visited a friend on a farm - hunting)

I realize opaline is scares but it will be nice if you can test the blue dom pied (spangle) hen with an opaline or at least a split opaline cock. We all know that if any opaline cocks are produce from the pair it will be proof that the hens is harlequin + opaline + maybe furter tests with sl edged. (if needed)

It is a stunning female.

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

I realize opaline is scares but it will be nice if you can test the blue dom pied (spangle) hen with an opaline or at least a split opaline cock.

Not easy to do.. That's $4k+ just for a split. not like saying get a turquoise.

I just received from John a hen sf Violet green/blue or turq /CT
couple of things:
the thing that strikes me is the dark/black flights -
is your violet green strain similar or diff. to this bird?
i have green violet in sf & df but non of mine have such flights and have yellow edging (df comes close and his tail is darker). she is 2.
I understand she was bred from a YH YT & Turquoise (or Indigo ?)DF Violet hen pic below of parents


Parents


Large pics to be able to zoom in
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/c/hm/P5212434.JPG

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/c/hm/P5212437.JPG

this bird has white edges to flight feathers and mine have yellow ...


yellow

[Farzz1]

Hi Mr Shannon
The birds are amazing; the pics are divine,
I did mention before that the dominant pied are caring the opaline gene however not to reproduce and opaline its tricky and a bit unabsorbed however the green saddle back in the pics is enough reason to believe that opaline exists in its bloodline or probably an opaline dom pied because of the concentration on its back and the recessive interference would however create that bird or yours.
Furthermore the green saddleback is reason not to speculate anymore as the bird exist ,I have read a forum a while ago where the discredit to the saddle back was given as it was said not to bred in green however you have proved the world wrong well done
I am testing my Dom pied this year with opaline and Dom edge and a possible Dom violet deep pied with and emerald (keen to see the results) as I hope that pairing would create spectacular birds as yours
Take care

[Farzz1]

Hi
I have noticed that dom pied is referred to spangle??
How is this possible?? There has been no theory to support that neither has a spangle Indian ringneck parakeet been bred, it’s hard to digest
Thanks

[Ring0Neck]

I have noticed that dom pied is referred to spangle??

Farzz
When Spangle was used in this conversation it was referred to the phenotype , so used as a reference to that spangle looking bird.
Nobody has declared it a Spangle mutation, most probable a combo of mutations giving that phenotype.

I did mention before that the dominant pied are caring the opaline gene however

Thank you for your opinion, appreciated.
However that is your opinion and you might even be right just don't expect everyone to just agree to it.

[Carr.birds]

Ben & Farzz

Stefan, Recio, Deon and I discussed the possibility that the harlequin (dom pied) can be a spangle mutation after we received the first pic of a bird Chris bought as clearwing cleartail about 18 months ago. The opinion was bases on the fact that the df harlequin is almost a clear bird (white in blue series and yellow in green series). In no other species that I know of will the df dom pied produce a clear bird.

I will allow Stefan and Recio to add to the statement and opinion and explain. Just keep in mind that it is currently only speculation based on evidence of the df harlequin phenotype when compared to the spangle mutation in Budgies.

Tienie

[Johan S]

The opinion was bases on the fact that the df harlequin is almost a clear bird (white in blue series and yellow in green series). In no other species that I know of will the df dom pied produce a clear bird.

Tienie, not sure I follow you here. The DF dom. pied budgie is almost completely clear.

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie,

That's great work in progress.
Very interesting.

Have you considered?
Harlequin phenotype is not the same as Spangle it is the first bird that John has that has come close.
Maybe DF Harlequin is not a true DEC - as we can see Harlequin X CT gives us same phenotype.

Mixing colors
We can see more n more white/yellow phenotypes made up of diff mutation combos
therefore white/yellow phenotypes can be less considered a mutation phenotype, more like exceeding color threshold once that threshold has been reached it always gives the result = white/yellow

PS
Looking at the graph Recio made and Peter posted we see pieds how close they are to Optically saturated yellow/white


I am simply provoking lateral thinking, not discounting the idea.

[Carr.birds]

Ben

Thanks for your opinion. The discussion between us about harlequin being a spangle took place before any of the pics of John were available. I understand your point and we must take into account that cleartail according to my knowledge is unique to the IRN.

DEC and BEC

We must be careful with the term DEC (dark eye clear). DEC is an allele of the a-locus (pastel, dec, bronze fallow and nslino) IMO we should use BEC black eye clear, but this was linked to a combination between recessive and dom pied, although the df harlequin does have a normal (black) eye and is almost a clear bird. (clear bird with a darker head)

Tienie

[Carr.birds]

Lee

I don't know. It is a proven fact that cleartail isn't an allele of the a-locus. A lot of cleartails are split for nslino.

What amazes me is the combination between cleartail and opaline. The front part is much more diluted than expected. I am curious to see a proper cleartail adm pied.

I would have loved to label cleartail as a pastel (a-locus) but as mentioned tests with nslino proofed that it isn't an allele.

Tienie

[madas]

I am curious to see a proper cleartail adm pied.

The van Belles had breed one in 2009 or 2010 if i remember correct. But i haven't a pic.

greetings.

madas