Cinnamon effect...

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu May 09, 2013 4:05 pm

or stress barring?

Hi all,
I acquired this Cinnamon Green hen yesterday afternoon- and didn't notice any barring when I picked her up-(was dusk) this morning I notice that she has barring going all the way down her tail- which I couldn't manage to get a pic of- so, does Cinnamon cause this effect?

Youngspud · Post by **Youngspud** » Thu May 09, 2013 4:43 pm

My cinnblue has that same affect I never really looked too much into it though so not sure on why it has it.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu May 09, 2013 4:49 pm

Thankyou- good to know- would you happen to have a picture of what yours looks like?

Here's a pic I managed to get (which I then lightened as it was too dark) that shows the tail:

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu May 09, 2013 6:44 pm

Shey

Your bird is edged
if it was just cinnamon it would have darker brown flight feathers
edged flights are a continuation of body color
take some pics of the open wing

see pics here
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... ged#p78668

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu May 09, 2013 8:49 pm

you know, I was half wondering about that myself- as I'd never seen one (in real life) before, I wasn't knowing what I was really looking at.

I'm stoked... so, no Cinnamon then?

will try and get wing pics- thanks for your help

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Thu May 09, 2013 9:30 pm

How beautiful is this Violet DK Green Cinnamon Edge

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu May 09, 2013 9:59 pm

Ben

I agree with you, it is edged but I would go for cinnamon edged (SL Edged-cinnamon).

Peter your bird doesn't look so healthy, but are you sure it isn't a greygreen SL Edged although cinnamon in combination with violet, dark and edged can give this mustard colour effect.

Tienie

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu May 09, 2013 11:56 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Your bird is edged

Carr.birds wrote:Ben I agree with you, it is edged but I would go for cinnamon edged (SL Edged-cinnamon).

My first reaction, based on the first pic was the same. Granted, I was also leaning towards cinnamon edged.

Then came the second pic that shows the tail nicely. And it causes some doubt with me. Don't you guys think that the main tail feather, esp. the barb/rachis is too dark (esp. considering it is a hen)? For edged, it is normally a light beige/brown colour. That tail feather is rather dark. Can of course be the light too...

I normally go back to this pic as reference, as it shows the tail colour for siblings (cock and hen).

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri May 10, 2013 12:07 am

Interesting,
Shey, can you find out info on the parents? pics maybe?
Is the Hen DNA sexed or nest sexed?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri May 10, 2013 1:14 am

didn't get to get open wing shots- I'll leave it alone for now as it doesn't sit still with me around and it's been a stressful week for it considering that it was shipped up here from somewhere down south after the husband and wife decided to split (messy divorce apparently).

Doubt I'd find out if it were dna'd (although it does have a leg band which might tell us the year) it was sold to me through a middle person who'd grouped it together in with "mature hens aged 3 and above".

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri May 10, 2013 1:58 am

That is not only a cinnamon. I guess we are seeing a lot of variation in the tail then. I am now on board with cinnamon edged. I might even be convinced there is misty in that as well. That is a very interesting bird, Shey.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Fri May 10, 2013 2:26 am

Shey, Johan & Ben

Based on the last pic I am also thinking of Misty SL Edged-Cinnamon. Nice dark head, will be nice in combination with.........?

Tienie

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri May 10, 2013 3:54 am

I know nothing about the Misty mutation- but I thought Ben said that there was no Misty in Oz... I will try and find out who owned this bird originally.

Cheers

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:02 am

Carr.birds wrote:will be nice in combination with.........?

Violet and dark! Couldn't resist...

You are thinking opaline, right?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:03 am

sheyd wrote:I know nothing about the Misty mutation- but I thought Ben said that there was no Misty in Oz... I will try and find out who owned this bird originally.

Cheers

have sent a message regarding previous ownership- hopefully will hear back soon

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:05 am

Johan S wrote:
Carr.birds wrote:will be nice in combination with.........?
Violet and dark! Couldn't resist...

You are thinking opaline, right?

I was thinking Violet...and am waiting to hear back from another breeder what he has available.. but now I don't know if this bird is indeed a hen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:10 am

sheyd wrote:I know nothing about the Misty mutation- but I thought Ben said that there was no Misty in Oz... I will try and find out who owned this bird originally.

Cheers

Shey, most guys also think there isn't edged in Oz. But, when one goes back to the roots of these birds, I'm betting a lot of the "experimental" edged birds from Europe was exported. And it might be some of those birds that were in the import batch that introduced edged to Oz. And the two most prominent experiments that I know of with edged in Europe was creating combinations with cinnamon and with misty. If there ever was a chance of a misty sneaking into Oz, my money would be on a bird very similar to this one.

I would put that bird on a "clean" bird, i.e. a blue, violet, deep or dark cock and start to reverse investigate it. Make 100% sure the cock isn't split cinnamon.

I'm also eagerly awaiting Madas to join this conversation. He knows much more about these mutation combination than me.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:15 am

no aviary name- and the bird didn't come from down south like I thought but more like over the hill- so the people weren't big time breeders. I'll try and get some better shots when the weather starts being co-operative (been raining all week) but for now I'll go with SL Edged Cinnamon Green.

Johan- just saw your post- is this really a possibility? I feel like I am in over my head...

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:27 am

Let's see what Madas will say
but i'm still on edged no cinnamon - we have to allow a variance in camera he is using.
unfortunately i don't have a green edge, most of the ones i kept are df & df turq so most of them have white flights.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:56 am

we have to allow a variance in camera he is using.

(her camera ;) )

if it helps..it has lighter feet than my Blue cock, but darker feet than my Pallid hen.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri May 10, 2013 5:01 am

At some stage I saved a copy of a blue misty edged cinnamon that Madas uploaded. I'll wait for his input. Of course, more pictures of the bird in question won't do any harm; when the weather allows.

SCB 22 · Post by **SCB 22** » Fri May 10, 2013 6:21 am

OMG i nearly cried. Your bird is identical to my hen i lost in feb. She was a cinnamon green dom edge. SO SO beautiful, miss her so so much.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Fri May 10, 2013 10:24 am

Carr.birds wrote: Peter your bird doesn't look so healthy, but are you sure it isn't a greygreen SL Edged although cinnamon in combination with violet, dark and edged can give this mustard colour effect.

Tienie

Defiantly Violet

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Fri May 10, 2013 11:31 am

Peter

From the tail in the pic it is clear it isn't greygreen, but the bird isn't dark enough to be violet dark cinnamon.

Pic of SL Edged dgreen

I bred a SL Edged violet, violet blue and "SA deep" dblue. Will take pictures and post it tomorrow

Tienie

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Fri May 10, 2013 12:21 pm

thanks I will also take a better pic and post

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Fri May 10, 2013 12:42 pm

Peter

You are welcome, I don't know why you didn't used your last pics for your first post.

You said definitely violet. What happened to the dark factor. If you own the parents post a pic of them.

Tienie

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:54 am

Had a real good look at it today- and I 100% think it has Cinnamon- its' feather shafts are brown, has clear-ish light nails and seems to switch between brownish and greenish colouring depending on the light.

Will promise to take detailed pics when we move it over to the other avairy- but here are a couple more for now:

madas · Post by **madas** » Sat May 11, 2013 2:02 am

sheyd wrote:didn't get to get open wing shots- I'll leave it alone for now as it doesn't sit still with me around and it's been a stressful week for it considering that it was shipped up here from somewhere down south after the husband and wife decided to split (messy divorce apparently).

Doubt I'd find out if it were dna'd (although it does have a leg band which might tell us the year) it was sold to me through a middle person who'd grouped it together in with "mature hens aged 3 and above".

Here she looks like an edged bird (green ???).

madas · Post by **madas** » Sat May 11, 2013 2:04 am

prodigy wrote:
Carr.birds wrote: Peter your bird doesn't look so healthy, but are you sure it isn't a greygreen SL Edged although cinnamon in combination with violet, dark and edged can give this mustard colour effect.

Tienie

Defiantly Violet

Tail looks like the one violet dark and body color could be cinnamon edged because it's very light for a violet dark green.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sat May 11, 2013 3:15 am

Tx Madas!

Tienie are you able to visually distinguish between the two modes of edge inheritance at all ?

.

LoveCharlie · Post by **LoveCharlie** » Sat May 11, 2013 7:46 am

Loved the pics

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sat May 11, 2013 8:12 am

normal green cinnamon edge

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:55 pm

Peter & Stefan

SL Edged dark cinnamon, SA deep blue SL Edged, & dblue SL Edged

dblue SL Edged-cinnamon

violet blue SL Edged-cinnamon

violet blue SL Edged

SA Deep blue SL Edged

dblue dilute SL Edged

grey turq dilute SL Edged

Stefan sorry I couldn't take a pic of the nsl-ino greygreen SLEdged today

Tienie

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sat May 11, 2013 1:25 pm

Peter

A proven SL Edged-cinnamon hen

Tienie

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat May 11, 2013 8:08 pm

I still think Shey's bird is not cinnamon but edged only.
Shey is your bird similar, light mustard color like the last pic Tienie posted? or darker overall color?

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sat May 11, 2013 10:26 pm

prodigy wrote:
Tienie are you able to visually distinguish between the two modes of edge inheritance at all ?

.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sun May 12, 2013 12:45 am

Peter

Difficult in hens but easier in sf cock. Attached please find a comparison pic of sf SL Edged dblue & sf SL Edged-cinnamon dblue.

It is a bit easier in the green series where the SL Edged-cinnamon is more yellow/green in the flights. If you look at the comparison pic it is clear how difficult it is to distinguish between the 2 although the colour of the feet give an indication. One would argue that by adding SL Edged to Cinnamon it will reduce it by about another 25% and this is clearly not the case.

Stefan
Proven Greygreen NSLino SL Edged/cleartail

Tienie

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun May 12, 2013 4:54 am

Ring0Neck wrote:I still think Shey's bird is not cinnamon but edged only.
Shey is your bird similar, light mustard color like the last pic Tienie posted? or darker overall color?

See, when I saw that pic and taking the full sunlight into account it could be the colour of my bird I wouldn't say the bird in that pic was mustardy- Peter's Violet Edged looks mustardy to me- but getting back to my bird, it's hard to describe the colour, but when viewed from the front and from a distance say 20ft and in the shade, not to un-similar to the eye to my Wildtype Green, but up close remarkably different- the colour is like a limey green.
Tienie -thankyou for sharing pictures of your wonderful SL Edged birds

do you still happen to own your SL Edged Cinnamon Green, and did you have any shots of the tail or any other shots where it is not in full sun?

reg Blue cock can be used as a reference:

If not Cinnamon- what do we put the light nails and feet down to- also what about the brown feather shafts?

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:42 am

Shey

Sorry I gave both my SL Edged-cinnamon cock and hen to an elderly breeder who owned "fallow" birds years ago but lost the line. He was so happy and till today it is evident when I saw him.

Your observation of the feet is an indication of cinnamon and if you look at the flights you will see the yellow/green colour I explained. I suggest you pair her with a cinnamon cock to proof the point. SL Edged-cinnamon in combination with other mutations are pretty.

What about a violet blue harlequin/cinnamon cock. I think the effect of SL Edged and Cinnamon in combination with harlequin will be pretty.

Attached a pic of my SL Edged ADM Pied hen (btw I believe cinnamon is also present)

Tienie

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun May 12, 2013 7:07 am

Tienie,

I've paired up my violet edged cinn to a harlequin blue hen, hope she goes down

, she's only a young hen.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Sun May 12, 2013 8:08 am

Ben

Great, I only own 2 harlequins and have so many plans that the combo with SL Edged must wait until 2014. I hope your pair produce this year, I am curious to see what the combo will bring to the table.

Tienie

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun May 12, 2013 5:34 pm

Tienie, yes will try and find a Cinnamon cock- I like the DFCinnamon expression- all babies from that pair will only be split to SL Edged though, so this will be an ongoing project

Will keep everyone updated on this bird- and get better pics when moved into the other aviary

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:00 pm

Shey,
No splits from that hen, most likely it is dominant sl edged & there's no df cinnamon
all males will be visual dom sl edged. see madas gen calc.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:19 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Shey,
No splits from that hen, most likely it is dominant sl edged & there's no df cinnamon
all males will be visual dom sl edged. see madas gen calc.

- well you learn something new everyday- hey? I automatically but wrongly assumed that there could be df Cinnamon...but now that I think about it... is this because it is sexlinked recessive?

I can't install Stefan's calc- computer won't allow- however I've now noticed that there is a second Edged Dilution on the other calc- but is the outcome for this one not correct- as you said that only the males would be visual?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:52 pm

I've now noticed that there is a second Edged Dilution on the other calc- but is the outcome for this one not correct- as you said that only the males would be visual?

Yes, the website gen calc calculates only dominant and ignores SL => wrong outcome will be given.
All males will be edged and you can nest sex them.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:59 pm

thanks Ben

madas · Post by **madas** » Sun May 12, 2013 10:09 pm

sheyd wrote: I can't install Stefan's calc- computer won't allow- however I've now noticed that there is a second Edged Dilution on the other calc- but is the outcome for this one not correct- as you said that only the males would be visual?

Is there an error message which you get then installing or something else?
.Net Framework 4.0 is installed?

madas

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

SCB 22 wrote:OMG i nearly cried. Your bird is identical to my hen i lost in feb. She was a cinnamon green dom edge. SO SO beautiful, miss her so so much.

Sorry, I missed this post- sorry you lost your bird. Did you have a picture you wanted to share- understand if it is too hard.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:23 pm

madas wrote:
sheyd wrote: I can't install Stefan's calc- computer won't allow- however I've now noticed that there is a second Edged Dilution on the other calc- but is the outcome for this one not correct- as you said that only the males would be visual?
Is there an error message which you get then installing or something else?
.Net Framework 4.0 is installed?

madas

I get a "can not start application" error message which tells me to contact the application vendor.
can't remember if i have net.framework installed- will check now

madas · Post by **madas** » Mon May 13, 2013 10:41 pm

Carr.birds wrote:

Hi Tienie,

thx for the pics. But are you sure they are "only" EF SL Edged? They look very light colored for an ef bird.

greetings

Stefan