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white on white

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Ring0Neck
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white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:34 am


Have a look at this young bird (not mine) bred from Cinn Violet X cinn. blue hen
I assume the male is split pallid? or are we looking at something else here?
http://traceybirds.webs.com/apps/photos ... =165705065

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:52 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
Have a look at this young bird (not mine) bred from Cinn Violet X cinn. blue hen
I assume the male is split pallid? or are we looking at something else here?
http://traceybirds.webs.com/apps/photos ... =165705065
Yeah could be a pallid cinnamon crossover.

What kind of bird is this non-violet in the following pic? Deep? It can't be normal blue and doens't look like cobalt.

Image

And this? Deep green?

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:59 am


The blue bird is a European Cobalt
The green ... i'll ask
I think some colors are really enhanced by the camera, especially in the youngsters .
The birds must get heaps of sun, see the cinn. blues (we are in sunshine state after all)

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:16 am

Madas,

I got myself a Brinsea Ova-Scope. Are you pretty certain that it'll show if egss are fertile after 5 days of incubation?

Green bird is apparently a green he uses as foster parent .

PS. He also added: one violet hen took 3 years to show the turquoise ...how bizzare.

** on the white bird: he bred about 20 normal colored birds and only 1 crossed-over cinn-pallid
for the stats 20:1



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Re: white on white

Post by Recio » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:40 am

Ring0Neck wrote:PS. He also added: one violet hen took 3 years to show the turquoise ...how bizzare.
Hi Ben

Does he own a pic of such a parblue violet hen? If this parblue behaves like other parblues this hen should show a very ligth non fluorescent "turquoise" patchiness, even lower than described for Saphire, further supporting the multiallelic capacity of the blue locus and the consideration of the patched phenotypes as different possible morphotypes which can be obtained by different parblue allele combinations.
It would also be interesting to know if the female was able to breed (or not) before the parblue became evident since a relation between expression of patched psittacins and sex hormones has been postulated.

Regards

Recio

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:56 pm


Molossus the pic of the Cobalt Madas was showing is from the same website i started this thread, from
a local breeder.

** I really hope that we can find an easier way to distinguish between deep n dark.
their phenotype is too close to each other.
I'd be willing to try any pairings just to find a way. ie; pair deep to lutino etc.
suggestions?

Recio - I'll ask him - he tells me it's not his bird but a breeder he was getting violets from.


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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:37 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Madas,
I got myself a Brinsea Ova-Scope. Are you pretty certain that it'll show if egss are fertile after 5 days of incubation?
Jeap. Pretty sure after 5 Days egg 1 and egg 2 should show small veins. After 2 days of incubation you should see a Change within the egg yolk.
Btw: One of my cleartail pairs laid their last (nr. 5) eggs yesterday. So egg 3 was laid 5 days before. Then candling the eggs with a normal torch i could see two eggs already showed veins and show a red Color within the light of the torch. I use the Ova-Scope to see if the chicks resp. eggs are still alive around 15 days and 2 days before hatching to see if the Youngster breaked thru the Membrane inside the egg.

madas

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:50 am

It's an interesting thought.
I don't have a mature grey-green, not sure i want one either. i have a young CT male but not ready to breed.
As i mentioned to you i will have greyblue emerald x deepblue, similar perhaps not the same outcome
using a emerald in case/as expected deep to be masked by grey if so, birds are still of some value to me.
I use mature deep hen in this case hoping to get double clutch making sure i get a grey deep blue.
** correction the mature hen will be paired to the emerald grey male
Great info Madas , Thanks

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:58 am

Ring0Neck wrote:** I really hope that we can find an easier way to distinguish between deep n dark.
their phenotype is too close to each other.
Wait till you see a SF of one of the Nico Theunissen birds. Their tail feather fits between deep and dark. They are even more confusing and I'm willing to bet that if you have only one of the two on display, 95 out of a 100 breeders will not be able to ID which one it is. And add to that that it definitely seems as if there is a slightly darker strain of cobalt in SA than some the dark birds in Europe, and things get really confusing.

I'm really looking forward to the result of grey deep. It will reveal a lot about the deep factor. And so will cobalt deep to test allelic interaction.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:24 am

Does anyone know why i have these markings on the edged violet's tail?
I acquired this bird a couple of months ago.

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Lushen1600 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:15 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Does anyone know why i have these markings on the edged violet's tail?
I acquired this bird a couple of months ago.

Image

Stress Barring?
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:04 am

Ben, I think it is part of the edge mutation. I have seen this in some of our birds too. I love violet edge, do you have some more pics?

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Re: white on white

Post by Farzz1 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Hi
That cannot be stress related
I have seen that markings on some my dom edge birds however in my previous post with regard to the partridge /grizzle /rec edge that tail feathers are identical were an edge is displayed only on the tail ,strange
Thanks

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Lushen, good point, however i also doubt it is from that.
He is a pretty cool/relaxed bird & on a good mixed diet.
It probably is edge related

(click once on the pic to enlarge)

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edv.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/IMG_7389.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgedvio.jpg

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Re: white on white

Post by Lushen1600 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Hi Ben, with the new pics I now see that it cannot be stress barring?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:53 pm

emerald grey's head - love the color
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:12 pm

Lovely birds Ben- Dom edge is next on my list- (if I can find one up here) I especially like the tail markings on the Violet

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:30 am

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/inflight.jpg

add cinnamon to edged.
it gives a nice spin to it, not to mention adding a pied
unless things change i will pair up the bird in flight to a dom. blue pied this season

I was impressed by Tienie's ADM & edge birds.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:17 am

madas wrote: What kind of bird is this non-violet in the following pic? Deep? It can't be normal blue and doens't look like cobalt.
Image
This is my cobalt hen mature, it is indeed light colored similar to the 1 in the pic.
I will pair her up to another cobalt to make sure (if i get mauves) that she is eu cobalt.

My early experiences (8 or so years ago) with european cobalts here in OZ, they were very light colored, i remember such a pair that i had trouble distinguishing bewteen them and blues, for that reason i sold them.
Cobalt wasn't sought after here not untill cobalt cleartail was bred, then it gained some popularity.
These are just my views/experiences, other Ozi breeders might see it differently.
Johan remembers when we started talking about Deep blue i kept saying "deep blue darker then cobalts" and he kept correcting me :D
* When i went to Ron's place he showed me the Deeps for the first time (back in 08 i think) my impression was: darker > cobalt.
Perhaps the Df deep i saw made an inprint and i got stuck with that image.
83IV

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:18 am

Molossus,
Pic above was taken with flash (can see the reflection in the background)

*a thought: eu cobalts were imported into Oz, we get sun here all year round it is possible that cobalts were washed off their color till they adjusted to the climate, a few years, this would somehow explain why seeing such light cobalts in early days.
Remember we discussed on this forum a bird i had with an almost white body but well colored head?? it was a cinnamon blue and Madas got it right that time, after moult non of that white body is visible.

there was a confusion initially since both birds were referred as cobalts.

Yes it's possible.. i thought about that ..

This is the only pic i have for now of the deepblue left and the cobalt right.
* 2 photos joined together for comparison, taken same day. (3 months ago)
not as accurate as 1 shot as light can change when the second pic is taken.
I might get some pics as you suggested when i pair them up , soonish.
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:35 am

This breeder calls this turq. emerald grey Ct
I emailed Recio a while back re this bird and he didn't think it was turq.
I also think it's a grey-green not turq grey.
i think breeder paired up an emerald (blue she thought) green/blue X df turquoise grey? even turq. grey blue

thoughts?

http://www.ourringnecks.com/apps/photos ... =172255721

I posted quiet a few posts in the last couple of days... it is raining here, stuck under the roof.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:54 pm

molossus wrote: The Cobalt (D)I know that you have there, is exactly the same phenotype as the cobalt we have in good ole s. a.
You mean is the same as one of the variants of cobalt we have here in SA. I'll bring some feathers along of our cobalt collection and you can judge for yourself. :D

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:57 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:This breeder calls this turq. emerald grey Ct
I emailed Recio a while back re this bird and he didn't think it was turq.
I also think it's a grey-green not turq grey.
i think breeder paired up an emerald (blue she thought) green/blue X df turquoise grey? even turq. grey blue

thoughts?

http://www.ourringnecks.com/apps/photos ... =172255721

I posted quiet a few posts in the last couple of days... it is raining here, stuck under the roof.
I've looked at that bird before and thought the same as you (bout the bird- didn't think about the actual breeding)

on another note... I don't like how some big name breeders use different names for the same mutations within their aviaries- it's like they're trying to hold onto their 'secrets' of their breeding program by confusing people- I see it a lot.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:27 am

Wait till you see a SF of one of the Nico Theunissen birds. Their tail feather fits between deep and dark. They are even more confusing and I'm willing to bet that if you have only one of the two on display, 95 out of a 100 breeders will not be able to ID which one it is. And add to that that it definitely seems as if there is a slightly darker strain of cobalt in SA than some the dark birds in Europe, and things get really confusing.

I'm really looking forward to the result of grey deep. It will reveal a lot about the deep factor. And so will cobalt deep to test allelic interaction.
[/quote]

That is why we need the DF SA Deep Blue to be bred, or has it been bred??

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:55 am

Shey,
I don't like how some big name breeders use different names for the same mutations within their aviaries- it's like they're trying to hold onto their 'secrets' of their breeding program by confusing people- I see it a lot.


It might not be the case here. It is more that the breeder assumes as most do; Emerald being a Parblue mutation.
Breeder says: Emerald Blue - In fact it can be = Emerald /blue non Parblue mutation nor allelic.
Results differ a lot. so if their assumption is wrong they can not possibly see green or grey-green birds offspring.
It is as simple as that.


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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:55 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Shey,
I don't like how some big name breeders use different names for the same mutations within their aviaries- it's like they're trying to hold onto their 'secrets' of their breeding program by confusing people- I see it a lot.


It might not be the case here. It is more that the breeder assumes as most do; Emerald being a Parblue mutation.
Breeder says: Emerald Blue - In fact it can be = Emerald /blue non Parblue mutation nor allelic.
Results differ a lot. so if their assumption is wrong they can not possibly see green or grey-green birds offspring.
It is as simple as that.

no, wasn't talking about the Emerald birds- more along the lines of their uses of Turquoise and 'pastel' and Cleartail, 'whwt, yhyt' ect, ect. I've also seen from a different breeder, 'lavendar' as well as Cinnamon Violet. It's a pet peeve of mine when they use multiple descriptions on their pages to describe the same mutation/s within their aviaries. that is all. :)

....
Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:53 pm

sheyd wrote:Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
If both are parblues of the same allele, they can still exist together in the same bird, but only one mutant gene of each.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:06 am

trabots wrote:That is why we need the DF SA Deep Blue to be bred, or has it been bred??
I agree, and also why I have been spending time to identify more breeders with these birds in their aviaries so as to have a larger base from which we can work. I am making good progress, as these birds are rather abundant in my area. There have been a couple of reports of DF birds, but I am yet to see one. By most accounts they are violet in phenotype, though. But, the proof is in the pudding. I'll wait for this season to look at some more breeding results. Can you believe it, it is almost that time of the year again. Only 3-4 months to go! :D

PS: Please remember to keep us updated on results of cobalt deep x blue breedings. Since you've shown no allelic interaction with violet, that is the result that has me most curious.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:04 am

PS: Please remember to keep us updated on results of cobalt deep x blue breedings. Since you've shown no allelic interaction with violet, that is the result that has me most curious.
I have discussed this with Ron and he is going to do that pairing this year. I advised that he had images of Deep Cobalts and df Indigos on his website. Wondering why there was zero interest (comments)? He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes). I wouldn't argue.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:43 am

Ron's website

http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes).
Willy,
He does not have pics of that bird , only of Indigo Deep Cobalt. is that what you meant?

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:25 am

trabots wrote:
PS: Please remember to keep us updated on results of cobalt deep x blue breedings. Since you've shown no allelic interaction with violet, that is the result that has me most curious.
I have discussed this with Ron and he is going to do that pairing this year. I advised that he had images of Deep Cobalts and df Indigos on his website. Wondering why there was zero interest (comments)? He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes). I wouldn't argue.
From the pics, I like the violet deep the best. And I'm wondering how close to saturation/mauvish deep dark violet would be.

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:20 pm

Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:09 pm

Johan S wrote:
sheyd wrote:Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
If both are parblues of the same allele, they can still exist together in the same bird, but only one mutant gene of each.

ah, okay thanks-

so an Emerald could be Turq as well- but would it show or be hidden?

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:22 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Ron's website

http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes).
Willy,
He does not have pics of that bird , only of Indigo Deep Cobalt. is that what you meant?
Sorry, I mean't DF Deep IndigoBlue

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:23 pm

trabots wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Ron's website

http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes).
Willy,
He does not have pics of that bird , only of Indigo Deep Cobalt. is that what you meant?
Sorry, I mean't DF Deep IndigoBlue
I got up too early, I mean't Deep Dark IndigoBlue

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:25 pm

Carr.birds wrote:Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
I don't know why that bird could be confused for Violet, there are no violet tones apparent in Ron's Deep Dark Blues

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:42 pm

trabots wrote:
Carr.birds wrote:Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
I don't know why that bird could be confused for Violet, there are no violet tones apparent in Ron's Deep Dark Blues
My personal feeling is because we have introduced confusion by calling the Nico Theunissen birds deep blues. When they are combined with dark, it does appear like a violet.

I also played a role in this, and therefore feel responsible towards trying to rectify the situation I advise people to take a cautious approach and not use the term deep or violet for that mutation until it is figured out. Unfortunately, there are already advertisements where guys are now selling deep without any reference to the difference of Oz deep. Also, in the last week had a couple of phone calls from guys all over the country calling these birds deep.

Time will tell towards a better understanding.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:12 am

sheyd wrote:
Johan S wrote:
sheyd wrote:Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
If both are parblues of the same allele, they can still exist together in the same bird, but only one mutant gene of each.

ah, okay thanks-

so an Emerald could be Turq as well- but would it show or be hidden?
Shay, I think this combination is where we will start seeing 'patchy' emeralds, but I have to point out I'm merely speculating. In theory, we should have the 'smooth' appearance of emerald present, as well as the 'patchy' psittacin of turquoise, so both should be visible and possibly clearly different under UV. In reality, I have no idea. There might be very interesting interactions happening and the bird could very well deviate from theory.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:41 am

ah, okay thanks-

so an Emerald could be Turq as well- but would it show or be hidden?
Shay, I think this combination is where we will start seeing 'patchy' emeralds, but I have to point out I'm merely speculating. In theory, we should have the 'smooth' appearance of emerald present, as well as the 'patchy' psittacin of turquoise, so both should be visible and possibly clearly different under UV. In reality, I have no idea. There might be very interesting interactions happening and the bird could very well deviate from theory.
I had a bit of a search, and found one- would love to be able to watch it mature:
http://www.gtaviaries.com/#!4-sale/c1pww

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:10 am

molossus wrote:Shey hi,
Is this the aviaries that bred the violet dom pied that had a prominent patch on one wing?
I wouldn't know sorry

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:37 am

Molossus,

Probably not, this breeder is about 1 hour away from where I am.

Look at this pic, it almost looks like a grey bird !

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:30 am

Carr.birds wrote:Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

this is a german violet turqblue (or as Willy would say Indigo):

Image

madas

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:10 pm

this is a german violet turqblue (or as Willy would say Indigo):
It IS IndigoBlue Madas, why call it something it isn't?

It is also not the same colour as Ron's Deep Dark IndigoBlue. That bird is blue, this bird is violet, I am talking colours here.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:22 am

Anybody can show us a pic of a SF or DF Turquoise DF Violet & DF Dark ?
if not a DF Violet DF Dark ?

Thanks

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:55 am

I have a Cinnamon Dark or Deep Blue.
Hen was a deep dark blue x blue/cinn
I don't have a cinn dark to compare, although i will test pair her to a cobalt, let me know what you guys think.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/cindy.jpg

Madas asked a few weeks ago if Indigoblue is darker then blue, i just made a compilation of
Indigoblue 2012 bred; a Cobalt (in the background) and a blue - the 2 pics used were taken today.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indi_dark_blue.jpg

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:05 am

I have a Cinnamon Dark or Deep Blue.
These pics are of one of Ron's Cinnamon Deep Blues. Same bird, big difference depending on the light.

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:57 am

Hi Willy,
Yes i know Ron's bird. If i remember correctly it was identified as Sl Edged Cinnamon Deep blue, look at the flight feathers, his has the edged & cinn markings while mine is just cinnamon.

Either way, i'm not about to guess if dark or deep, i will find out when she will breed for me.



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Re: white on white

Post by keeskk16 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:58 am

nice coloured birds

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:33 pm

Ben, I speak to Ron almost every weak. He has no Edged birds that he has told me about, none on his website either. That is the first I have heard of any Edged in OZ. Can anyone post a pic of a proper Edged of any inheritance in plain Green or Blue?

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:22 pm

it says on his (Ron's) website that, that Deep Blue Cinnamon is a SL Edged hen.

Ben, any chance of getting both (Indigoblue and Blue) in the one shot (and do you think one is darker than the other? Have heard somewhere that Turquoise somewhat darkens the base with some mutations- so makes sense that Indigo would do the same if the first holds true.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:27 pm

Willy,

That's what i thought last year too. No Edged in Oz. However i have found a "colony" from a breeder he called them fallow and he believed that you can not have edged (fallow) without cinnamon. (of course it's a matter of how you pair them up to remove cinnamon)
The reason we don't see Edged in OZ is because it is tangled in with cinnamon mutation and breeders automatically ignore the birds altogether and only a few have survived.
I bought most of this colony and i kept a few pairs and spares.

The pic below of 2 pairs (left to right)
Turq.blue Edged/Cinn - Turq.grey edged cinnamon hen ; sf or df turq (blue?) cinnamon edged male and blue edged hen
http://www.parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgex.jpg

I have circled the edged pattern on the male, the edged cinnamon is not as easy to identify as Tienie and others will tell you

Here's another pic of the young pair:
the turquoise is son of the mature pair in prev. pic
i think he is a df turq and df edged as well as cinnamon & the hen their phenotype always look like df edged although they are only sf
http://www.parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edp.jpg

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:56 pm

Ben, I do remember many 'Fallows' 10-15 years ago of which cocks were all supposedly split Cinnamon. I had a Blue one but with basically the same coloured bird but with the colour washed out of the flights I couldn't see the point of breeding them. They are in Bastiaan's book as Dominant Edged which is what I recall they were, dominant. You are probably correct about Ron's bird, he probably wasn't aware that the Cinnamon Blue he used was also Edged. The image I posted certainly backs up your opinion. I stand corrected.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:02 pm

it says on his (Ron's) website that, that Deep Blue Cinnamon is a SL Edged hen.
You are correct, Ron has changed the label since I last looked. Thanks for the update.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:14 am

Ben, any chance of getting both (Indigoblue and Blue) in the one shot


Willy has Indigo blues, perhpas he has a pic of a mature one next to a blue?

From what i see, i believe that Indigo certainly is darker then a blue. right Willy?
Indigo in the pic i acquired from Willy, unless he has given me a Cobalt Indigo :shock: .

-------------

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:30 am

Sorry, nothing alongside a plain Blue. I wouldn't call them darker, they are definately bluer than a TurquoiseBlue but still greener than a Blue. IndigoBlue is blue, TurquoiseBlue is green to a normal person. We are not normal.

Note the different level of patching on 2 mature cocks, note the white rings vs salmon coloured for TurquoiseBlue. A prime example of a psitticin heavy IndigoBlue looking like a lighter TurquoiseBlue, except for the ring of course.........or, the heavy bird may be a df Indigo, the breeder did say he had bred a couple.

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:32 pm

Willy, thanks for the pics. But you have me thinking...
The Indigoblue hen you posted alongside the Turquoiseblue cock, could be mistaken for an Emerald :shock: (at least from the picture).

What is the feather colour structure like on an Indigoblue- anyone looked at them? What about df/sf Turquoiseblue..what do their feathers look like?

I would love to see a line up in this order consisting of Blue, sfIndigoblue, dfIndigo sfEmerald, sfTurquoiseblue, dfTurquoise and normal Green. :mrgreen:

Anyone bred a dfTurquoise (Blue) to a dfIndigo (Blue)?

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed May 01, 2013 7:01 am

Anyone bred a dfTurquoise (Blue) to a dfIndigo (Blue)?

I doubt it.
It crossed my mind, but i won't do it this season.
I am curious the ringneck color of the turq indigo cockbird...
--
I will take some pics tomorrow of the young indigoblue & blue in same cage.
------------
I'm not sure what to do. your suggestions welcome.
i have a blue pied hen & i'm thinking of pairing her to either one of:
Turqblue df edged cinn male
or violet-cobolt/cinn male
or violet edged cinn male

Tuq looks really good in pieds

thoughts? what would you do?


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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Wed May 01, 2013 5:01 pm

The Indigoblue hen you posted alongside the Turquoiseblue cock, could be mistaken for an Emerald (at least from the picture).
Sheyd, at a glance yes, however if you look closer you can see the psitticin patching on the wings and back. An Emerald doesn't show any such patching being a homogeneous colour basically.

IMO the breeding of the heteroalleles EmeraldTurquoise, IndigoTurquoise, EmeraldIndigo is a waste of aviary space. The phenotypes will be in between the component mutations in appearance and therefore of no greater appeal than either. When you then breed these to a Blue the young revert to being one or the other. As Emeralds are far more valuable than the other two, it makes no sense to dilute their future output in financial terms by 50%. This is a image of a bird I owned which I believed to be a Dark IndigoTurquoise. It was bluer than a TurquoiseBlue but has much patching for an Indigo and had red in the ring not visible in the image. Unfortunately it was split NSL Ino as well as CHCT so was sold off.

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Wed May 01, 2013 7:37 pm

This is a image of a bird I owned which I believed to be a Dark IndigoTurquoise. It was bluer than a TurquoiseBlue but has much patching for an Indigo and had red in the ring not visible in the image. Unfortunately it was split NSL Ino as well as CHCT so was sold off.
I must apologise, this bird could not have been Dark TurquoiseIndigo. On checking my records this bird was bred to a Blue and bred 2 Cobalts, a ParblueBlue and a NSL Ino. The bird had to be either IndigoBlue or TurquoiseBlue. It looks like an IndigoBlue however the ring definitely had some red in it up close, leading me to my erroneous conclusion. I will never know having sold the whole NSL Ino corrupted family for a song. I don't know why I didn't pick it up earlier, must have been distracted by the disaster of finding that red eyed bird in the nest.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Wed May 01, 2013 9:26 pm

As Emeralds are far more valuable than the other two, it makes no sense to dilute their future output in financial terms by 50%.
This statement is also without merit. An EmeraldTurquoise bred to a Blue will still produce 50% EmeraldBlues just like an EmeraldBlue bred to a Blue. Bad Willy.

I still wouldn't breed these heteroalleles for the fact that as birds get moved on their genetic make-up often gets lost. I can't see how applying duller green patches to an awesome coloured green bird enhances the beast.

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Wed May 01, 2013 11:55 pm

trabots wrote:
This is a image of a bird I owned which I believed to be a Dark IndigoTurquoise. It was bluer than a TurquoiseBlue but has much patching for an Indigo and had red in the ring not visible in the image. Unfortunately it was split NSL Ino as well as CHCT so was sold off.
I must apologise, this bird could not have been Dark TurquoiseIndigo. On checking my records this bird was bred to a Blue and bred 2 Cobalts, a ParblueBlue and a NSL Ino. The bird had to be either IndigoBlue or TurquoiseBlue. It looks like an IndigoBlue however the ring definitely had some red in it up close, leading me to my erroneous conclusion. I will never know having sold the whole NSL Ino corrupted family for a song. I don't know why I didn't pick it up earlier, must have been distracted by the disaster of finding that red eyed bird in the nest.
So the blue hen was split for NSLino too? :)

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Thu May 02, 2013 3:26 am

Correct. The NSL Ino chick was a male.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Thu May 02, 2013 8:07 am

trabots wrote:
This is a image of a bird I owned which I believed to be a Dark IndigoTurquoise. It was bluer than a TurquoiseBlue but has much patching for an Indigo and had red in the ring not visible in the image. Unfortunately it was split NSL Ino as well as CHCT so was sold off.
I must apologise, this bird could not have been Dark TurquoiseIndigo. On checking my records this bird was bred to a Blue and bred 2 Cobalts, a ParblueBlue and a NSL Ino. The bird had to be either IndigoBlue or TurquoiseBlue. It looks like an IndigoBlue however the ring definitely had some red in it up close, leading me to my erroneous conclusion. I will never know having sold the whole NSL Ino corrupted family for a song. I don't know why I didn't pick it up earlier, must have been distracted by the disaster of finding that red eyed bird in the nest.
And this statement brings me right back to the large amounts of variation seen in the parblues. Although I will entertain the idea of indigo and turquoise, and still don't see the big deal in separating them as two unique mutations. If we do it for them, then if have to do it for every other parblue phenotype. This means we could sit with the likes of turquoise, indigo, saphire, saddled and this new "in between indigo and turquoise". Where do we draw the line? Call them all new mutations when DF has shown them unique, or just bunch them together as turquoise as most people know them? :?:

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Thu May 02, 2013 4:50 pm

Ring0Neck wrote: I am curious the ringneck color of the turq indigo cockbird...
I'd imagine somewhere in between...palest/faintest orange perhaps?
--
I will take some pics tomorrow of the young indigoblue & blue in same cage.
That'd be great- if you could *thumbs up*
------------
I'm not sure what to do. your suggestions welcome.
i have a blue pied hen & i'm thinking of pairing her to either one of:
Turqblue df edged cinn male
^ I'd pair as above- not a fan of the pieds- but Turquoise does make them more attractive (imo).

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Thu May 02, 2013 4:53 pm

trabots wrote:
As Emeralds are far more valuable than the other two, it makes no sense to dilute their future output in financial terms by 50%.
This statement is also without merit. An EmeraldTurquoise bred to a Blue will still produce 50% EmeraldBlues just like an EmeraldBlue bred to a Blue. Bad Willy.

I still wouldn't breed these heteroalleles for the fact that as birds get moved on their genetic make-up often gets lost. I can't see how applying duller green patches to an awesome coloured green bird enhances the beast.
no, I wouldn't want to either..now that I know what they look like. Emerald is a beautiful mutation- it doesn't need Turquoise (or Indigo) to make it more 'special'- imo it takes away from the look.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Thu May 02, 2013 5:17 pm

Johan S wrote:Where do we draw the line? Call them all new mutations when DF has shown them unique, or just bunch them together as turquoise as most people know them? :?:
I'd be inclined to choose the first option- if it is proven that there are indeed homozygous phenotypes (of preposed new mutations) then why label them all under one heading?

can anyone take pictures of the neck rings of; sfIndigo, dfIndigo, sfTurquiose & dfTurquoise Blues?

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Thu May 02, 2013 5:54 pm

And this statement brings me right back to the large amounts of variation seen in the parblues. Although I will entertain the idea of indigo and turquoise, and still don't see the big deal in separating them as two unique mutations. If we do it for them, then if have to do it for every other parblue phenotype. This means we could sit with the likes of turquoise, indigo, saphire, saddled and this new "in between indigo and turquoise". Where do we draw the line? Call them all new mutations when DF has shown them unique, or just bunch them together as turquoise as most people know them?
Johan, I thought I had long ago proved the uniqueness of the Turquoise and Indigo homozygotes. They are totally different. The heterozygotes I have shown to have much variation in phenotype and possibly even overlap, however it is ridiculous and unscientific to "draw the line" based on these ParblueBlues when the full expression of the Parblue is what the mutation is in fact. Deon mentions this too in his new book. The real learning starts with the mutation in its own right. If Turquoise was discovered in IRNs long before birds with a single Blue gene was discovered would we be making conclusions about the Blue mutation based only on the BlueTurquoise phenotype? You seem to relegate ParBlues into an 'almost a mutation' category. If there is a unique single mutant gene it always must be possible to have two of these genes in a creature. A df Turquoise is just as much a mutation as a Blue yet I am sure you wouldn't relegate Blue to the 'almost a mutation' category. They share a locus that is all, they are still recessive mutations in their own right.

I must admit I am still trying to get a df Indigo on the perch with a df Turquoise for an image. My df Indigo was killed by a hen the first week after I received it. The following re-posted images however show the differences between homo and hetero for Turquoise and Indigo. Ron has images of young df Indigos on his web site http://www.fabulousparrots.com.

'Sapphire' however, where is the df 'Sapphire'??? We only have Babu describing a ParblueBlue with less patching yet that seems to have been enough for some otherwise intelligent people to continually refer to it as a mutation in its own right.

IndigoBlue, df Indigo
Image

df Turquoise, TurquoiseBlue
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu May 02, 2013 10:05 pm

Indigo blue & Blue next to each other

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indigoNblue1.jpg


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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri May 03, 2013 12:42 am

trabots wrote:Johan, I thought I had long ago proved the uniqueness of the Turquoise and Indigo homozygotes. They are totally different. The heterozygotes I have shown to have much variation in phenotype and possibly even overlap, however it is ridiculous and unscientific to "draw the line" based on these ParblueBlues when the full expression of the Parblue is what the mutation is in fact.
Willy, you're test is very narrowly focused and have only shown a small part of the puzzle. You talk about science, so let us consider the bigger picture to explain the entire phenomenon. Have you tested by selective breeding? Have you repeatedly taken the greenest indigos into a line breeding program, and the bluest (least green) turquoise into a line breeding program and have you shown after a number of generations that the two phenotypes from the two line breeding programs do not look the same? :?: I'm sure you haven't. The problem here is, you are actually saying to the entire world that by selective breeding we will not be able to achieve a similar phenotype, but no one has scientifically shown this. Also consider what Madas has said not so long ago about the interaction between pallid and ino and the effect it has after multiple generations. You also severely underestimate the power in selective line breeding. Yet, this process has in fact been illustrated in a scientific manner to bring out certain desirable traits in an animal.

The point I'm trying to bring across is simply this: You are right in that they appear different and of course they are alleles, but it could simply be variation of a much more complex interaction of multiple genes. Then they aren't different mutations, but variation of the same. Can one line breed a cleartail to become a fallow? Of course not. I.e. they are unique mutations. Can one line breed a turquoise to become an indigo? Nobody knows for sure, but I'm not writing of the possibility. Why are you?
trabots wrote:You seem to relegate ParBlues into an 'almost a mutation' category. If there is a unique single mutant gene it always must be possible to have two of these genes in a creature. A df Turquoise is just as much a mutation as a Blue yet I am sure you wouldn't relegate Blue to the 'almost a mutation' category. They share a locus that is all, they are still recessive mutations in their own right.
No, my point was somehow lost. The parblues are a unique mutation and allele of blue. That is not in dispute. I'm questioning merely whether we are dealing with a single mutation with a very large variety that can be bred into a number of different lines (Deon calls them morphotypes, and I like that!), or whether they are truely unique and no amount of line breeding will bring the different morphotypes together.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri May 03, 2013 1:13 am

sheyd wrote:
Johan S wrote:Where do we draw the line? Call them all new mutations when DF has shown them unique, or just bunch them together as turquoise as most people know them? :?:
I'd be inclined to choose the first option- if it is proven that there are indeed homozygous phenotypes (of preposed new mutations) then why label them all under one heading?

can anyone take pictures of the neck rings of; sfIndigo, dfIndigo, sfTurquiose & dfTurquoise Blues?
Because it has not been proven that they aren't simply variety of the same mutation (see my previous comment to Willy about line breeding). We all know that variety exist even in the wildtype. When does mere variety become enough to classify something as a new mutation?

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri May 03, 2013 1:20 am

Can one line breed a turquoise to become an indigo? Nobody knows for sure, but I'm not writing off the possibility. Why are you?
Firstly Johan, you use terminology which requires further explanation. I presume you mean't 'Can one line breed a TurquoiseBlue to become an IndigoBlue?' You no doubt can selectively and through line breeding, breed a lightly patched bluer TurquoiseBlue that looks identical to a greener heavily patched IndigoBlue. What happens if you pair two of these IndigoBlue look-a-likes? I will bet the farm that the homozygote you breed will be a df Turquoise NOT a df Indigo and vice versa. Look at the pics, they are totally different.To take your premise further this means that we can take an IndigoBlue and select etc and get a 'Sapphire'Blue and continue onward and finally get a BlueBlue (Blue)??

You say yourself that
The parblues are a unique mutation and allele of blue. That is not in dispute.
The definition of uniqueness precludes making a unique mutation out of another unique mutation. You are like so many others who cannot leave the ParblueBlues to their own similarities and discuss only the homozygous Parblues, the beast with the answers. You cannot make a df Indigo out of df Turquoise bird,
no amount of line breeding will bring the different morphotypes together.
and so
they are truely unique

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri May 03, 2013 1:25 am

Because it has not been proven that they aren't simply variety of the same mutation
I have proven it Johan. The homozygous Indigo is a different phenotype to a homozygous Turquoise. What do you require for proof? We accept that a CHCT is a different mutation to a CH Fallow because their homozygotes are different, what is the difficulty with accepting the same proof for mutations whose only crime is to share a locus with other mutations.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri May 03, 2013 2:03 am

trabots wrote:
Because it has not been proven that they aren't simply variety of the same mutation
I have proven it Johan. The homozygous Indigo is a different phenotype to a homozygous Turquoise. What do you require for proof? We accept that a CHCT is a different mutation to a CH Fallow because their homozygotes are different, what is the difficulty with accepting the same proof for mutations whose only crime is to share a locus with other mutations.
The underlined above is a good question. And you have answered it already by stating the next phase of the experimental procedure. I have underlined it below.
trabots wrote:
Can one line breed a turquoise to become an indigo? Nobody knows for sure, but I'm not writing off the possibility. Why are you?
Firstly Johan, you use terminology which requires further explanation. I presume you mean't 'Can one line breed a TurquoiseBlue to become an IndigoBlue?' You no doubt can selectively and through line breeding, breed a lightly patched bluer TurquoiseBlue that looks identical to a greener heavily patched IndigoBlue. What happens if you pair two of these IndigoBlue look-a-likes? I will bet the farm that the homozygote you breed will be a df Turquoise NOT a df Indigo and vice versa. Look at the pics, they are totally different.To take your premise further this means that we can take an IndigoBlue and select etc and get a 'Sapphire'Blue and continue onward and finally get a BlueBlue (Blue)??
The question above in boldtype shows we do not understand parblues clearly yet. Thanks for highlighting it for us, Willy. My money on the result is different than yours. I believe that we will see something closer to the Indigo morphotype.

And to correct your terminology (in italics), there is no such thing as a df Turquoise or a df Indigo when you were the one to insist on calling a heterozygous parblue a TurquoiseBlue or IndigoBlue. The homozygous birds are Turquoise and Indigo without the DF. Annoying when people hammer the anvil and not the sword, hey? :P

This discussion has been very productive. What is very clear from the above is that we both agree that there are certain questions that have not been investigated and that we can clearly not answer yet. Your gut is telling you something different from my gut. We can not say with 100% certainty what those offspring will look like. It needs more investigation. Thanks again for highlighting to the rest of the forum what the next step should be in the investigation (your question above in boldface). Then we can revisit the unique mutation vs variety of a single mutation discussion.

PS: Please don't quote people out of context.

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Fri May 03, 2013 3:02 am

Hi Johan,

i can understand your point of view. But don't forget the color of the neckband. It's the most distinct pattern then comparing indigo and turquoise.
Even the homozygous indigo shows a white band for what we have seen on pics. But if i haven't read wrong Willy reported that one of his indigo showed
a little bit red in the neckband. So perhaps Johan thoughts tend to the right direction????? This bird should be used for a line breeding program.
Further more we need to solve the question if the indigo shows a little bit darker "Blue" then a normal blue or turquoise and makes it another marker for
a different mutation.

madas

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri May 03, 2013 5:32 am

You no doubt can selectively and through line breeding, breed a lightly patched bluer TurquoiseBlue that looks identical to a greener heavily patched IndigoBlue. What happens if you pair two of these IndigoBlue look-a-likes?
I re-quote myself. Just how many years do you reckon it would take to get to the point where you have df Indigo look-a-likes from line breeding df Turquoise look-a-likes? Firstly you have to breed the homozygotes to pair, got any? +2 years Then you have to start line breeding with how many pairs? How many generations do you reckon? 3? +6years Then you have to pair what you have after 8 years to breed what you claim will happen. +2 years. So 10+ years? As I am still a bit unsure about what you mean by "indigo" and "turquoise", the above argument still holds. Who is going to carry out this study? Unrealistic.
Annoying when people hammer the anvil and not the sword, hey?
Is this sarcasm? or is it Sarcasm?

So I am clear on Parblue naming terminology, I follow Terry Martin's rules except for one*:

heterozygous Turquoise with heterozygous Blue = TurquoiseBlue
heterozygous Turquoise with heterozygous Indigo = TurquoiseIndigo.
homozygous Turquoise = Turquoise = df Turquoise*

* I suggested a couple of years ago that because Turquoise and Blue are co-dominant, using lower case df Turquoise when you mean homozygous Turquoise would IMO avoid confusion whether one used 'turquoise' or TurquoiseBlue for the heterozygote. Hands up who uses the correct ParblueBlue terminology? Hands up who has a Parblue?
This discussion has been very productive. What is very clear from the above is that we both agree that there are certain questions that have not been investigated and that we can clearly not answer yet. Your gut is telling you something different from my gut. We can not say with 100% certainty what those offspring will look like. It needs more investigation. Thanks again for highlighting to the rest of the forum what the next step should be in the investigation (your question above in boldface).
These Parblues have been bred by the Budgerigar fanciers for how long? Have there been any reports of one Parblue mutation being line bred to end up with another Parblue mutation? Ever? My gut is not involved, that might be your problem.
Then we can revisit the unique mutation vs variety of a single mutation discussion.
You mean in 2023.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri May 03, 2013 6:17 am

But don't forget the color of the neckband. It's the most distinct pattern then comparing indigo and turquoise.
Even the homozygous indigo shows a white band for what we have seen on pics. But if i haven't read wrong Willy reported that one of his indigo showed
a little bit red in the neckband.
Stefan, the norm for neck ring is white for IndigoBlue, shade of red for TurquoiseBlue and df Turquoise. My df Indigo had a shade of red neckband albeit much lighter than on a TurquoiseBlue. The breeder of this bird had bred a few and all had a small amount of red in the neck ring. Parblue involves adding a quantity of psitticins to a Blue bird or the prevention of Blue removing all psitticins. We seem to all agree the process is variable going either way. It is therefore not unreasonable for increased neck ring psitticin occurring variably in heavily marked Parblue and ParblueBlue birds reducing to pure white in most IndigoBlue and all Blue birds.
So perhaps Johan thoughts tend to the right direction?????
While some people are line-breeding df Turquoise into df Indigo birds I will be turning birdseed into birdshit and hopefully knowledge. A key point is this, the variability in these heterozygous birds, the ones we all have or have seen, the TurquoiseBlues and the IndigoBlues, vary not only because of variances in Turquoise and Indigo expression but also variances in Blue expression. We all know there are normal and brilliant Blue IRNs. When the Blue is eliminated as in a df Turquoise or df Indigo, then what? A major variability factor is no longer available. All pointless really, realistically speaking, time wise, to do this study. I much prefer their individual appearance, the heck with trying to turn one into another.

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Fri May 03, 2013 11:16 am

Stefan & Willy

This is a violet indigoblue/cleartail from an imported European line. Please compare this with Stefan's German violet indigoblue and tell me if you think this is the same phenotype.

Image

Regards

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Fri May 03, 2013 12:21 pm

Carr.birds wrote:Stefan & Willy

This is a violet indigoblue/cleartail from an imported European line. Please compare this with Stefan's German violet indigoblue and tell me if you think this is the same phenotype.

Regards

Tienie
Image

Image

Hm, i can't see any difference. But your pic is an outside pic and mine was taken inside at a bird exhibition.

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Fri May 03, 2013 12:45 pm

trabots wrote:We all know there are normal and brilliant Blue IRNs
Perhaps we have two blue mutations? Any one test breed a "normal" blue to a "brillinat" blue?

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri May 03, 2013 5:38 pm

IMO both Violet IndigoBlues

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Fri May 03, 2013 6:27 pm

Johan said:
The underlined above is a good question. And you have answered it already by stating the next phase of the experimental procedure. I have underlined it below.

Johan quoted Willy:

Firstly Johan, you use terminology which requires further explanation. I presume you mean't 'Can one line breed a TurquoiseBlue to become an IndigoBlue?' You no doubt can selectively and through line breeding, breed a lightly patched bluer TurquoiseBlue that looks identical to a greener heavily patched IndigoBlue. What happens if you pair two of these IndigoBlue look-a-likes? I will bet the farm that the homozygote you breed will be a df Turquoise NOT a df Indigo and vice versa. Look at the pics, they are totally different.To take your premise further this means that we can take an IndigoBlue and select etc and get a 'Sapphire'Blue and continue onward and finally get a BlueBlue (Blue)??
and Johan said:
And to correct your terminology (in italics), there is no such thing as a df Turquoise or a df Indigo when you were the one to insist on calling a heterozygous parblue a TurquoiseBlue or IndigoBlue. The homozygous birds are Turquoise and Indigo without the DF. Annoying when people hammer the anvil and not the sword, hey?
Johan, if you go through these statements made by us both, you can see that your sarcasm regarding my terminology is unwarranted. You refer to "indigo" and "turquoise" in the first instance
Can one line breed a turquoise to become an indigo? Nobody knows for sure, but I'm not writing off the possibility. Why are you?
and one can infer from that you were referring to homozygous birds as you state with caps now included:
The homozygous birds are Turquoise and Indigo without the DF


You thank me on behalf of the forum for coming up with the experimental procedure underlined above however it is clear that I am referring to the heterozygous by using ParblueBlue terminology. Despite your lesson to me, you were in the first instance obviously referring to heterozygous birds NOT homozygous birds and using the same incorrect terminology that everyone uses for heterozygous Parblues, "turquoise" and "indigo". You have further established the need for my suggested 'df' for homozygous Parblues. Annoying when people try to hammer the sword and drop the hammer on their foot, hey?

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri May 03, 2013 11:13 pm

Johan S wrote:Annoying when people hammer the anvil and not the sword, hey? :P
...
PS: Please don't quote people out of context.
Willy, notice the emoticon in my post? It is that little :P symbol. That changes the meaning of what I have said. The symbol :P means 1) sticking out tongue, 2) cheeky or 3) tongue in cheek. Notice that no malicious intend was meant. That is why one includes such a symbol on internet forums. The addition of the emoticon changes sarcasm into light hearted teasing. And you should see the joke in it. You are always insisting that we use the correct terminology. All of us makes the mistake of not doing it all the time. So it was funny when you made the mistake as well and I couldn't resist teasing you about it.

If you need help interpreting those smiley faces, this is a good place to start:
http://netforbeginners.about.com/cs/net ... ons101.htm

Hopefully I've clarified my intentions with the remark. I apologise if you misinterpreted the remark. I sincerely thought the emoticon would shed the necessary light. I hope we can now move on and get back to the line breeding discussion. :?:

PPS: I ask again, please do not quote people out of context. By, for example, removing the emoticon for my post, you are changing the meaning of my words. Quoting out of context is best left for reporters, not fellow forumites.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Fri May 03, 2013 11:49 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Indigo blue & Blue next to each other

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indigoNblue1.jpg

thankyou- I really was not expecting that much of a variance (if any)- you have certainly opened up my eyes...but* must* not* buy* more* birds*!!!

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Sat May 04, 2013 1:21 am

I hope we can now move on and get back to the line breeding discussion.
There you go Johan, I copied the face and it didn't get pasted. Not my fault, not interested in interpretation. You mean't what you said, the face is just a cover. IMO. I am consistent with my naming which nobody can confuse, whereas you have shown inconsistency in naming on this thread which I addressed. Please just read and most importantly comprehend my words as if they coming out of a machine, not an arrogant person. I regard an internet forum as impersonal. I make plenty of mistakes I know but I do correct them and usually before they are noticed, the last few days excepted.

Now the line breeding, which means Father to daughter and Mother to son over several generations, to fix a certain physical trait which you are interested in increasing (or decreasing). Line breeding does not alter the basic genetics. A df Turquoise is a different mutation to a df Indigo, just as a Pallid is to an Ino. You cannot line breed one to become the other. I did agree that you could probably line breed to get a TurquoiseBlue to be phenotypically the same as an IndigoBlue but that is it. I also pointed out the folly of such an exercise in this context. The two Parblues do everything expected of them from knowing their genetics. Why spend a decade trying to prove something that has yet to be seen in parrot genetics? The odds of success are poor. IMO.

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Sat May 04, 2013 1:40 am

Stefan & Willy

Stefan thanks for the compliment. My violet indigoblue/ct cock is 5 years old now and bred from his 2nd year. Paired to a dblue cleartail he produced dark & violet phenotype babies but when paired to a blue hen (last 2 years) not a single violet phenotype were present. A know it isn't big numbers <12 but it is a strange result. Will take a comparison picture with a American (violet blue & violet dark indigoblue) and post it later today.

Willy can you please post a pic of a deep dark indigoblue cock for comparison with the 2 cocks we compared.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Sat May 04, 2013 5:24 am

There are at least 6 pics of a Deep Dark IndigoBlue cock on Ron's website http://www.fabulousparrots.com. I don't have one yet however here is a comparison of a Violet IndigoBlue and Deep Violet TurquoiseBlue hens.

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Mon May 06, 2013 9:21 am

Carr.birds wrote:Will take a comparison picture with a American (violet blue & violet dark indigoblue) and post it later today.
Hi Tienie, did you get a chance to take that pic? Also, when you compare this bird with the American violet, does it give you the impression that this bird has a slightly more vibrant and a bit more blue-ish purple to it?

And to everyone: what are your feelings toward variation as seen in both adm and dominant pieds? It is well known that homozygous birds can express highly variable phenotypes, ranging from poor pied, almost clear birds, birds with mostly clear flights, clear backs, etc. All a result from selective line breeding where one phenotype could be bred to another, and all from humble birds with only a few pied feathers in the case of recessive pied. The proof of a new mutation as suggested here was that homozygous birds should appear different. And it could be possible to breed one phenotype to appear like another, even though the exercise its probably pointless. Is this then not sufficient to classify these pieds as alleles and as new mutations. Like with parblues, I'm not very keen to go down this road. However, with this mindset I can certainly understand why people are starting to market birds as new mutations like clearflight, clearbody, etc. Thoughts?

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Mon May 06, 2013 5:33 pm

Is this then not sufficient to classify these pieds as alleles and as new mutations.
Johan, you are a thinker, that is good. For a mutation to be an allele of another mutation, no matter how the phenotype is derived (line breeding or otherwise), it has to share a locus with the other mutation. The gene(s) for a phenotype, line bred from a Dominant Pied to look like an ADM pied will still be located at the particular locus for Dominant Pied. ADM Pied gene(s) can only be found at a different locus. As far as I am aware allelelic mutations must also inherit the same way.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon May 06, 2013 8:42 pm

Like with parblues, I'm not very keen to go down this road. However, with this mindset I can certainly understand why people are starting to market birds as new mutations like clearflight, clearbody, etc. Thoughts?
I can see your point and reasonable one too and worthy of discussing further.
As far as parblues, even if the Indigo was just a Turquoise i would still want the indigo identified as Indigo
say i want to buy a bird, if advertised as Indigo it will describe the phenotype of the bird without seeing it, but if it was called just Turquoise i would not know what to expect, breeding results seem consistent & i think it warrants as a mutation in it's own right as Willy has done most ground work to prove it so.
I love the parblues and i have quiet a few homo. & hetero. however indigo is another phenotype altogether

I asked Recio in Parblues thread similar question regarding parblues if it's possible to breed turquoise to blues and eventually to get phenotype as an indigo, he said no and i tend to agree.
The way i see it is simple; we began with many homo. turquoise green looking birds and now most birds are hetero. turq. hence the bluer turquoises floating around and that gives us the impression the turquoise being bluer closer phenotype to Indigo. however it seems consistent with very small variations which we get with most mutations.
My opinion anyhow.
If we can think of any test breedings to further prove or disprove the theory and it does not take forever i'm up for it.

----------
clearflight, clearbody : most of us don't have these birds but if we did, surely we could not call them say Turquoise
perhaps they are a combo of some sort? Only if breeders that have them would come forward and explain the genetical makeup of these new "mutations" and breeding results etc.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Mon May 06, 2013 11:25 pm

trabots wrote:
Is this then not sufficient to classify these pieds as alleles and as new mutations.
Johan, you are a thinker, that is good. For a mutation to be an allele of another mutation, no matter how the phenotype is derived (line breeding or otherwise), it has to share a locus with the other mutation. The gene(s) for a phenotype, line bred from a Dominant Pied to look like an ADM pied will still be located at the particular locus for Dominant Pied. ADM Pied gene(s) can only be found at a different locus. As far as I am aware allelelic mutations must also inherit the same way.
Willy, my thoughts were not do combine recessive and dominant pied as a same mutation. My meaning was intended to present two more examples to the parblues discussion, i.e. we should treat both pied types separately. Even thought we get for example an adm pied phenotype with clear flights, and a dominant pied phenotype with clear flights, my meaning is not that they should be treated as alleles. Rather, the various adm pieds are alleles, and the various dominant pieds are alleles, but the adm pieds and dominant pieds are not alleles. Hope it is clearer now.

So the question then again, perhaps a little rephrased, if we consider dominant pieds only, can we look at homozygous birds and classify different phenotypes as different mutations of the same allele?

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Mon May 06, 2013 11:50 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
Like with parblues, I'm not very keen to go down this road. However, with this mindset I can certainly understand why people are starting to market birds as new mutations like clearflight, clearbody, etc. Thoughts?
I can see your point and reasonable one too and worthy of discussing further.
As far as parblues, even if the Indigo was just a Turquoise i would still want the indigo identified as Indigo
say i want to buy a bird, if advertised as Indigo it will describe the phenotype of the bird without seeing it, but if it was called just Turquoise i would not know what to expect, breeding results seem consistent & i think it warrants as a mutation in it's own right as Willy has done most ground work to prove it so.
I love the parblues and i have quiet a few homo. & hetero. however indigo is another phenotype altogether

I asked Recio in Parblues thread similar question regarding parblues if it's possible to breed turquoise to blues and eventually to get phenotype as an indigo, he said no and i tend to agree.
The way i see it is simple; we began with many homo. turquoise green looking birds and now most birds are hetero. turq. hence the bluer turquoises floating around and that gives us the impression the turquoise being bluer closer phenotype to Indigo. however it seems consistent with very small variations which we get with most mutations.
My opinion anyhow.
If we can think of any test breedings to further prove or disprove the theory and it does not take forever i'm up for it.

----------
clearflight, clearbody : most of us don't have these birds but if we did, surely we could not call them say Turquoise
perhaps they are a combo of some sort? Only if breeders that have them would come forward and explain the genetical makeup of these new "mutations" and breeding results etc.
Ben, I agree with most of what you are saying. I'm not against classifying indigo as a different phenotype of turquoise. I think this is exactly why Deon tries to introduce the term morphotype to complement the terms phenotype and genotype. My issue is more with semantics in that I think it is variation in parblues, and not a new mutation.

The reason why I raised the variation topic in terms of pied is because between my dad and I we own a number of homozygous adm pieds with different phenotypes. There are some with very little pied, there are some with clear flights, there are some that are lighter than a cinnamon and give almost completely clear offspring, there are symmetric pieds, there are "scrambled egg" types (I loved that one, Willy!), etc. As you say, it is nice to know what you are getting when you buy something, so when selling pieds I try and explain what they look like and send photos, but I honestly don't think that they are different mutations. And perhaps you can imagine why I get upset when somebody phones me about a new mutation they have, I get really excited and when I go and have the look they are sitting with a pied.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 07, 2013 12:44 am

Yep - agree - let's discuss these issues in greater detail and everyone should point out anything they can think of even if not sure, even "What if" it is good work for the brain and we might learn s-thing.

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Tue May 07, 2013 12:48 am

Ring0Neck wrote: I asked Recio in Parblues thread similar question regarding parblues if it's possible to breed turquoise to blues and eventually to get phenotype as an indigo, he said no and i tend to agree.
Here i can't agree. Remember in Peachfaced Lovebird there is no real blue mutation. But after some years of line breeding we can see completely blue looking birds breed from turquoise species.
And that's why i think we are able to breed indigos from pairing turquoise x blue. But it will take some years.

madas

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 07, 2013 12:58 am

Madas, Point taken.
Can we ask around breeders that have bred indigo phenotype parblues and check parentage as far back as possible and perhaps we'll find a true turquoise somewhere down the line :?: .
working backwards can save years of work.
here in OZ i believe 90 odd % of turquoise birds have been paired to blue series birds, trend is probably same all over.



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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Tue May 07, 2013 1:03 am

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: I asked Recio in Parblues thread similar question regarding parblues if it's possible to breed turquoise to blues and eventually to get phenotype as an indigo, he said no and i tend to agree.
Here i can't agree. Remember in Peachfaced Lovebird there is no real blue mutation. But after some years of line breeding we can see completely blue looking birds breed from turquoise species.
And that's why i think we are able to breed indigos from pairing turquoise x blue. But it will take some years.

madas
And to quote my self. Perhaps there wasn't a true blue mutation in the IRN too. :D

madas

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue May 07, 2013 1:40 am

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: I asked Recio in Parblues thread similar question regarding parblues if it's possible to breed turquoise to blues and eventually to get phenotype as an indigo, he said no and i tend to agree.
Here i can't agree. Remember in Peachfaced Lovebird there is no real blue mutation. But after some years of line breeding we can see completely blue looking birds breed from turquoise species.
And that's why i think we are able to breed indigos from pairing turquoise x blue. But it will take some years.

madas
IIRC, in that same discussion it was also mentioned that we should consider the possibility that the blue locus consists of multiple genes, and depending on the number of genes that will activate psittacin production, we will get 10%, 20%, ..., 100% psittacin expression. If it is indeed multiple genes coding psittacin production, then the result that Madas mentions fits very well and we will eventually reduce psittacin production sufficiently to not be noticeable by our eyes. And if these genes are closely located and tightly linked (which seems to be the case), every new parblue morphotype would breed in a very stable manner in a line breeding program.

It is a pity that the parblue with the slight red in the neckring that Willy owned was sold. I'm very curious about the bird and it would be a good specimen to linebreed (some effort to work around the /ino, but do-able) and investigate the homozygous expression. Willy, any chance that you still know where the bird is or can track it?

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 07, 2013 1:50 am

IIRC, in that same discussion it was also mentioned that we should consider the possibility that the blue locus consists of multiple genes, and depending on the number of genes that will activate psittacin production, we will get 10%, 20%, ..., 100% psittacin expression. If it is indeed multiple genes coding psittacin production, then the result that Madas mentions fits very well and we will eventually reduce psittacin production sufficiently to not be noticeable by our eyes. And if these genes are closely located and tightly linked (which seems to be the case), every new parblue morphotype would breed in a very stable manner in a line breeding program.


If this was the case then it could also solve the Emerald patched dillema Willy has discovered.
I was just brainstorming, what if the hen (Willy's Deep Violet blue) is indigo with a minimum of psittacin, not visible to naked eye, then we would turn the tables upside down and ask if Deep is in any way linked to indigo with no visual psittacin? ...green feathers we sometimes see in Deep blues.
Hope i did not start a fire here :shock: these are just thoughts "What Ifs"

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Re: white on white

Post by smick » Tue May 07, 2013 2:22 am

As someone who is somewhat new to mutation breeding as Willy says df indigo and df turquiose it is easy to understand then homo and hetero :roll: when pairing two like birds together and i bet there are probably plenty like me :) . As for the white flights a different species but years ago i bought a cock scarlet chested parrot from a local breeder that had pure white flights instead of black, he had maybe ten birds like this in both sexs in a large colony of scarlets. This cock when bred to a normal hen produced both white flighted and normal flighted young. I was told this wasn't a mutation and these birds when they moulted would lose the white flights. I had the cock for years and he retained the white flights, i allways just sold off the young so when he passed away i lost this type. Was this a mutation :?: o when young and nieeve. Thanks Smick.
ps i have both indigo blue and turquiose blue cocks and prefer to think they are both mutations in their own rights as they are clearly different.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 07, 2013 3:00 am

Maybe we need to ask: Was Indigo bred from a turquoise?, probably 70% IMO yes.

If so, does it make it a less a mutation? when homo/heter. work had proven it a stable mutation and offspring phenotype is Indigo for all breeders?

Johan, let's talk about the ring.
the black/white ring of Indigo is just another way to identify Indigo, we can easily identify an Indigo hen or young male as Indigo without the aid of a neck ring, so perhaps we should ask: What about the ring? we don't pay any attention to red/pink/ yellow rings in other mutations, it is obvious that if it passes a threshold red will be displayed and that would apply to all mutations.
i have turquoise with yellow ring and related 1 with red. both turq. violets, beats me. one could be homo. and hetero. the other...
So for me black/white ring is indicative of Indigo only.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue May 07, 2013 3:01 am

People, I can't participate until you quit looking just at the ParblueBlues and making all sorts of predictions 10,20,30%, 'turquoise to indigo' etc. Just why does one want to turn a 'turquoise' into an 'indigo'? Who is going to buy an 'indigo' bred from a 'turquoise' when the real thing is available cheaply.

All these birds are half Blue, if they df they have no Blue genes, the df Parblue is the real thing. Why do they look so different, df Turquoise and df Indigo or for that matter 'df Blue' and hopefully df Emerald? Yes you can line breed and alter the psitticin blocking/production one way or another in ParblueBlues, but how have you changed what happens when there is no Blue? Why don't you ask yourselves that? Will the homozygote be altered after years of line breeding? The df Indigo will still be a different phenotype to the df Turquoise bred from 2 'indigo' lookalike TurquoiseBlue birds.

Further, if as someone said there is Turquoise behind the Indigos, why do we have far more of the standard phenotype for the Indigos than heavier/lighter patched ones? Surely there should have been a gradual gradiation in phenotypes established long ago? The part way birds would not have been all culled. The other way around, the many many Turquoise birds I have are very similar with maybe 1 in 10 not significantly non-standard.

When most of you are talking about ParblueBlues you write 'parblue'. TurquoiseBlue = turquoise etc seems to be the language on this forum so from now on I will also use the single name without the 'Blue', and 'df' when there actually is no Blue in the bird. I will also in the first instance assume heterozygous unless I see homozygous or 'df'. I may be mistaken but I saw a few 'df Parblues' in Deon's book. I am also going to drop the Blue behind Violet etc. If you mean Violet Green you already use it.

In the Emerald thread you can see that from Emerald x Deep Violet I have managed to breed all 3 Parblues; Emeralds for sure (they flouresce), Turquoise and Indigo look-a-likes and the Turquoise birds look df. Observations only. I look forward to the chat.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue May 07, 2013 5:04 am

I forgot that I had this image of a mature df Indigo cock. If you look close you can see the pale pink ring. The patches remind me of those on TurquoiseBlue CH Fallows. Then look at the next pic of a df Turquoise. Not even close. Until you have normal mature Turquoise and Indigos side by each in your collection, you won't see the folly.

Image

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue May 07, 2013 7:33 am

trabots wrote:Yes you can line breed and alter the psitticin blocking/production one way or another in ParblueBlues, but how have you changed what happens when there is no Blue? Why don't you ask yourselves that?
Willy, I get that you are referring genetically to homozygous parblues when you say there is no blue, i.e. no blue gene and two parblue genes. But have you considered that even a homozygous parblue is still that, a parblue or part blue? We see this clearly in Indigo(df indigo). I agree that there isn't a pure/clean blue gene present, but rather two parblues. But how do we explain the actual blue feathers in the Indigo (df indigo) example? We are discussing the possibility that there are multiple genes at play in the blue locus, so for a parblue some could be active for psittacin production, and some could be inactive. In your example of "half blue", this could mean half of this "series" of genes are active and the other half mutated into inactive genes. Thus, if there really was no / zero blue genes to disable psittacin production in a parblue, we wouldn't have a mutant gene in this series of genes anymore and we'd be dealing with an unmutaed bird, the wildtype. This multi-gene idea is not new. I speak under correction, but I think it was also considered by Terry in his group. The multi-gene idea could also even lead to a result where it is possible for an emerald to be a parblue and not a separate mutation.

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Tue May 07, 2013 10:29 am

Here are some interesting pics which should support Willy's theory of two distinct mutations:

turq cobalt less turq proportion but pink neckband:

Image

indigo (turq?) cobalt less turq proportion but white neckband:

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue May 07, 2013 4:56 pm

Att South African members: The pic of Willys df turq is a bird I have yet to see in South Africa. Am I the only one or is this unusual?.
to me the bird is a normal green appearing phenotype bar the blue tail and turq flights??
Yes Molussus, that is what they are and consistently so in the half dozen mature df Turquoise I have come across. When colouring up they look just like the 'patched Emeralds' I posted images of. I posted this image on Terry's forum of a clutch of young from a TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon pair. You can clearly see the extra psitticin in the df birds. The second is after fledging. They seem to be more easily recognisable in melanin reducing mutations.

Image

Image

It seems that I am fighting this battle all over again on this forum.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue May 07, 2013 5:18 pm

We are discussing the possibility that there are multiple genes at play in the blue locus
Johan, as far as I am aware a locus is a location on a chromosome which carries 2 genes only. Yes we may be dealing with other modifier genes on other locuses however the main event is the 2 genes which are only found where the genes for Blue are found. You have understood that when both genes at the locus are Parblue genes no Blue gene are possible. You cannot have more combinations of genes at the Blue locus than combinations of the main Turquoise, Indigo, Blue and hopefully Emerald genes. That is why I keep pressing the point that genetically all the line breeding in the world may change or skew the proportions of modifier genes which may be present near by but you cannot alter the main mutation gene itself.
how do we explain the actual blue feathers in the Indigo (df indigo) example?
The Indigo mutation is unique to a Turquoise mutation in that it promotes less psitticin. Two of the same of either gene types produces incrementally more psitticin than if the other gene is a Blue gene. I have shown this with images many times. This why in order of psitticin levels we can go from Blue to Indigo to df Indigo to Turquoise to df Turquoise. As you can see in the latter bird, psitticin production is back to normal except in the flights and tails. There is bound to be phenotypical overlap possible in this situation. The main Parblue genes are what they are and cannot be altered.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Tue May 07, 2013 5:34 pm

Here are some interesting pics which should support Willy's theory of two distinct mutations:
Madas, you have shown a clear difference with these two birds but you have to admit these two birds are similar and one can be confused for another. Another point of reference is the amount of green in the face. One or both of these examples could be IndigoTurquoise heteroalleles unless you know for sure what the parents are.

It is clear from what Molussus said that most have never had or seen a df Indigo or df Turquoise. That is where the phenotypical difference is and until you people breed them you will always form your opinions only on the similar looking heterozygotes. As I have pointed out many times, I did not start the discussions on these Parblues or the Deeps until I was convinced by seeing the much bigger difference in the homozygotes. I am however confounded by the intense interest in proving me wrong based only on birds with only half the story genetically speaking.

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Wed May 08, 2013 8:35 am

Stefan & Johan

The pic as promised.

L to R American (violet dark indigoblue, df violet blue & sf violet blue) and bottom European sf violet indigoblue

Image

Years ago I met a Budgie breeders Neels Roeloffze who made the statement that the sf violet blue is the prettiest mutation when compared to df violet blue and violet dark blue but I thought he was talking nonsense. If you look at the above image it is clear to me that the man knew what he was talking about. I promise you non of our IRN breeders at that stage wanted to believe him.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Wed May 08, 2013 8:58 am

Willy

This is a proven df turq hen. If I understand you correctly you are claiming that the df turq is visually evident when compare to a blueturq?

Image

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Wed May 08, 2013 9:11 am

Johan

df indigo bronze fallow
Image

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Wed May 08, 2013 9:33 am

Carr.birds wrote: Years ago I met a Budgie breeders Neels Roeloffze who made the statement that the sf violet blue is the prettiest mutation when compared to df violet blue and violet dark blue but I thought he was talking nonsense. If you look at the above image it is clear to me that the man knew what he was talking about. I promise you non of our IRN breeders at that stage wanted to believe him.
Tienie
But the Problem with budgies is that every breeder who is talking about violet budgies refers to the genetical violet (sf) dark (sf) blue.
Furthermore in budgies you can't easy distinct between dark (sf) blue and violet (sf) blue. So i think he really was talking about the cobalt violet.
Try to compare a violet (sf) blue with a violet (sf) dark (sf) blue budgie and you will always by the last one.

For lovebirds the most violet looking bird is a violet (df) dark (sf) blue. Really a great looking bird.

Image

btw: I would take the violet (df) blue or violet (sf) dark (sf) blue ringneck in your pics. :D

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Wed May 08, 2013 9:53 am

Stefan

I accept your explanation. I also own Fisher lovebirds and the sf violet blue fisher is the same situation as your mask. Only purple when dark blue is added.

For the first time today I held both sf and df violet blue IRN in my hand and with the naked eye there is a major difference in intensity between the 2. The rump, tail and flights are a major difference. It is a pity the overall body colour of the df is somewhat duller compared to a sf violet blue.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Wed May 08, 2013 5:01 pm

If I understand you correctly you are claiming that the df turq is visually evident when compare to a blueturq?
Tienie, yes. The hen in your image is certainly more like the df Turquoise on the left than the Turquoise on the right. It is unusual however. I would guess that while it is proven it still is not fully coloured.

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Wed May 08, 2013 9:30 pm

Tienie, here is a merged image from someone most of you have heard of. I found this many years ago. I was not the only one.


Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Wed May 08, 2013 9:50 pm

Willy

Based on the evidence you supplied I can't see how anyone can argue against it. From what we can see there is a visual difference between sf and df birds and therefore it must be a co-dominant (incomplete) mutation like dark.

The hen I posted is a matured bird but I had to take the shadows away and that had an influence on the picture. Will take a better picture and post it.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed May 08, 2013 9:56 pm

Tienie,

My df turquoise is very similar to a green bird and has blue feathers (see pic circled area) and a complete blue tail, unlike most greens , tail close to
the rump area is green.

Your df turq hen seems to have a rusty green, perhaps it gets heaps of sun?

2 y old hen df turq
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Wed May 08, 2013 11:01 pm

From what we can see there is a visual difference between sf and df birds and therefore it must be a co-dominant (incomplete) mutation like dark.
Not quite Tienie, it is a proper recessive mutation which happens to share its locus with Blue and Indigo and hopefully Emerald and is therefore co-dominant to these. I mis-understood co-dominant before reading Deon's book. I think you mean't incomplete dominant which Dark, Deep, Grey, Violet are.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Wed May 08, 2013 11:45 pm

trabots wrote:
We are discussing the possibility that there are multiple genes at play in the blue locus
Johan, as far as I am aware a locus is a location on a chromosome which carries 2 genes only. Yes we may be dealing with other modifier genes on other locuses however the main event is the 2 genes which are only found where the genes for Blue are found. You have understood that when both genes at the locus are Parblue genes no Blue gene are possible. You cannot have more combinations of genes at the Blue locus than combinations of the main Turquoise, Indigo, Blue and hopefully Emerald genes. That is why I keep pressing the point that genetically all the line breeding in the world may change or skew the proportions of modifier genes which may be present near by but you cannot alter the main mutation gene itself.
Willy, I think we are making good progress and getting to understand one another's view points better. Your explanation isn't wrong and I agree with what you have said, but I'm trying to elaborate on that as well. You touch on modifier genes, which indicates to me that you are aware of such and hopefully also open to the exploration of their effect. Intermediate and advanced genetics, unfortunately, can not always be explained by the basic/simpler concepts of a mutation being bound to a single locus/gene. That's where these modifiers are introduced. Now, I'm no geneticist either, and have read up a bit on topics like modifier genes, super genes, gene complexes, epistasis, pleiotropy, locus heterogeneity, etc., but I won't make a secret of the fact that I am far from understanding all these concepts in detail.

What you are saying is that we have the blue locus and it's alleles, being blue, indigo, turquoise and possibly emerald. In this case, we do not need any modifiers. And variation shouldn't be very likely. However, I'm saying that we could also consider the modifiers as well, so the blue locus would have it's alleles as blue (that completely switches of psittacin production and masking the effect of the modifiers), and a single parblue allele, that will express partial psittacin production, and this expression will depend on the modifier genes present in the genetic make up of the bird. As have been done with ADM pied, the modifier genes can be line bred and played with (with a range of interesting phenotypes), but it requires the major pied gene present to be expressed.

The difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying is minor (pun is intended). :lol: The inclusion of the minor/modifier genes, however, provides a genetic model with more flexibility than the multi-allele model you prefer. It allows, for example, to have a single allele (say pied) with variation, rather than having additional multi-alleles (pied1, pied2, pied3, etc.). Furthermore, it allows for the inheritance of the minor genes even from blue and green parents in the case of a parblue. This is not possible with the multi-allelic model. I prefer to apply this model to parblues, where we have a single parblue mutation, and it's expression is regulated by the minor genes/modifiers present.

Thoughts?

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Wed May 08, 2013 11:58 pm

madas wrote:For lovebirds the most violet looking bird is a violet (df) dark (sf) blue. Really a great looking bird.

Image

btw: I would take the violet (df) blue or violet (sf) dark (sf) blue ringneck in your pics. :D
Beautiful lovebird, Madas! In the IRN world, when trying to achieve the most violet bird, I think violet (df) dark (sf) blue is a step too far. The lovebird looks better than the same IRN in my opinion.

I would pick the violet (df) from Tienie's pic.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu May 09, 2013 12:48 am

The inclusion of the minor/modifier genes, however, provides a genetic model with more flexibility than the multi-allele model you prefer. It allows, for example, to have a single allele (say pied) with variation, rather than having additional multi-alleles (pied1, pied2, pied3, etc.). Furthermore, it allows for the inheritance of the minor genes even from blue and green parents in the case of a parblue. This is not possible with the multi-allelic model. I prefer to apply this model to parblues, where we have a single parblue mutation, and it's expression is regulated by the minor genes/modifiers present.

Johan,

I like your model idea & it is well explained :idea:
One must ask; Are we dealing ourselves a "free card" here? a free pass ?
Model fits the bill nicely, and most variations can fall into this model as long as we don't become complacent and throw everything in this bag including potential mutations.
We could also fall prey to the idea of other mutations being the same just diff modifiers at work, like SA Deep & OZ Deep
(not saying it is or otherwise)..
without doing the leg work to prove it one way or the other.


Tienie, do you have pics of the Eu violet and perhaps an american violet in the same pic? without indigo/turq.




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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Thu May 09, 2013 1:35 am

Willy

Sorry my mistake, yes co-dominant to blue and indigo. Will allele’s of the same locus always be co-dominant towards each other or can one be dominant over the other?

Did anyone do fluorescence comparisons on green vs green/turq?

My link at work is very bad, therefore I will rather wait till this afternoon and join again in the conversations.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Thu May 09, 2013 2:10 am

Ben, I agree 100%. It is a model, not a shortcut. The legwork is still necessary.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Thu May 09, 2013 5:09 am

Will allele’s of the same locus always be co-dominant towards each other or can one be dominant over the other?
The test is to breed df of each together. df Turquoise v Blue = 100% TurquoiseBlue = 100% BlueTurquoise. Which dominates the other? All co-alleles are equal partners genetically.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Thu May 09, 2013 5:26 am

What you are saying is that we have the blue locus and it's alleles, being blue, indigo, turquoise and possibly emerald. In this case, we do not need any modifiers.
Johan, I am saying these major genes determine the major mutation, the modifier genes contribute to the variations in the major mutation. The Pieds as you have shown are known to carry an abundance of modifier genes hence the many variations. A proof of sorts would be if through line breeding your Dad's Pieds you could get an ADM Pied to look like a dom Pied, do you think the bird would inherit dominant, or recessive like its blood line? There is more to it than appearance factors.

Recio, where are you?

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Thu May 09, 2013 5:35 am

Willy, Ben, Stefan & Johan

The attached pic is of an European dblue, blue and below SA dblue. The European dark bird was bred from SL Edged blue & imported violet ?dark indigoblue hen (darkest purple I have seen) and the other are local birds. In the pic the 2 dark birds look similar. We paired the European dblue to a SA dblue and it resulted in blue, dblue and a dark purple bird. No ddblue birds were present. It is at a friends place. Will visit him to get new pictures.

Image

Ben please run these through the filter to detect any difference between the European and SA dblue birds. I am convinced it isn't the same dark mutation.

Sorry I don't have a pic of European violet blue compared to American violet blue.

Regards

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu May 09, 2013 5:59 am

Tienie's pic Hue/Sat filtered
Image
Pic is showing up very similar color except for the tail, the SA Dblue has a lighter blue tail & wingtips.
But it can be the lighting alone that does that due to the bird's positioning.
Some more pics would be good.

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Thu May 09, 2013 9:03 am

Ben

Thank you. Based on the pics I agree there isn't a real difference. This was 4 years ago. I will revisit JB and get new pics. The hen has matured and maybe a pic of the 2012 babies will assist us.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu May 09, 2013 11:23 pm


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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri May 10, 2013 12:37 am

Carr.birds wrote:Ben please run these through the filter to detect any difference between the European and SA dblue birds. I am convinced it isn't the same dark mutation.
Tienie, I have a very strong suspicion your friend isn't sitting with a true European dark blue, but rather with the strain that has been identified as the Nico Theunissen blue (violet) that now appears to become popular as SA deep. I have seen an imported European cobalt and a Nico bird in two adjacent aviaries and they are even closer in phenotype than comparing a NT blue with the slightly darker SA cobalts.

When I first started posting to this forum, I thought that we were dealing with two violet strains. My thinking has diverted that the NT birds might be deep, but with Willy's assistance and after seeing an imported Oz deep bird, I'm back with my original line of thought that the NT birds have more in common with violet than with deep. And when combined with the dark factor, there is definitely certain light conditions that will make one think the bird carries violet.

Willy, you don't perhaps have a picture of a DF Deep in the green series?

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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds » Fri May 10, 2013 3:47 am

Ben & Johan

Ben thanks for posting the pictures.

Johan

It is possible if you take into account that the NT blue (SA Deep) was imported from Europe as dark. But then there must be 2 different dark mutations in Europe unless the "SA deep" is a second violet mutation as mentioned by you.

I own a brother of the hen in question. A "dark" indigoblue and must admit he compared very well with the "SA deep" blue Nico Theunissen birds.

Tienie

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Sat May 11, 2013 5:19 pm

I have these images on file but can't guarantee them being as labelled.

Deep Green
Image

DF Deep Green
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Sat May 11, 2013 10:17 pm

Thanks Willy! If we consider that last picture, it seems as if the oz deep is possibly more complex than what we give it credit for. Would love to see some more. A request: Ozzie forumites, would you please use every opportunity to take pics of oz sf/df deep green birds? We might be missing something by almost exclusively considering blue series birds.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat May 11, 2013 11:58 pm

Yep,
I already have 100 thoughts rushing through my mind..
& unfortunately most of us don't have any green deep birds.
The first that popped into my mind was the Jade green cheek conures that i had, they look very similar to the green deep pic above.
It is a dominant mutation & jade conures looked very similar to the df deep pic.
found a pic on the net.
http://www.madaboutconures.com/apps/pho ... =123353285
* the sf jade does not look as rusty as the pic shows (probably used flash to enhance color) but the df comes close

& this site - pic 9 in particular
http://www.mooiesaviaries.com/photos.html



Interesting to note is that Jade came about the same time as turquoise or Blue GCC here in OZ

I have somewhere the pic of the young in the nest when it was "first" spoted/bred. (by a local breeder)
i will look for the pic,
Thoughts?

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Sun May 12, 2013 1:23 am

trabots wrote:I have these images on file but can't guarantee them being as labelled.

Deep Green
Image

DF Deep Green
Image
Both birds look like Misty IRNs.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun May 12, 2013 1:27 am

Both birds look like Misty IRNs.

_________________
madas
Yep, but i have my doubt if these birds are indeed the green deep, surely there must be blue in their main tail feathers.
-----------------------
I have a mature green/blue male and a couple of young deep blue hens i can pair up, just doubting they will go down..
i'm rather surprised Ron does not have deep green pics on his website.
--------------
I guess we need to pay close attention to all young including blues bred out of a deep parent.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Sun May 12, 2013 3:10 am

Ben, you are spot on. There should be at least as much blue in the tail as in a Green, these birds are not what they were originally labelled IMO. I will remove them unless there are objections, or you do want to play name the mutation? Ron, as far as I know hasn't bred the Deep Green.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun May 12, 2013 3:16 am

I agree, should remove them as it'll create confusion more then anything else.
------------------------------------------

If i say the young green series bird in the pic is a hen, does anyone believe it?
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sun May 12, 2013 5:38 am

I had inquired about sfDeep Green from the same breeder who's image is shared above a little while ago, and from what he told me, was that Deep Green and Wildtype Green were virtually indistinguishable from each other- apart from the slightly darker (blue) central tail feathers on the Deep.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun May 12, 2013 5:41 am

Good work Shey,
You didn't ask if he has misty did you?


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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sun May 12, 2013 5:44 am

haha, no was only interested in Deep. would be no harm in asking him- he's the mod on the Aussie Indian Ringnecks mutations group on fb- though I chose to be no longer a member so can't ask.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 14, 2013 2:56 am

Here are 2 CHF blue mature males

Bird in the first 2 pics looks rather misty chf or edged chf perhaps cinnamon chf?
Opinions?

Image

Image

Ron's chf

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue May 14, 2013 3:23 am

Ben,

my cobalt CHF cock also shows the greyish overtone. I don't think misty is at play. When we consider the fallow types in other species, I've thought of CHF as a possible candidate for the smokey fallow.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 14, 2013 3:29 am

Johan,

It is a proven CHF no doubt, just wondering (breeder is) why the faded blue overlay?
looks cinnamon to me...

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Re: white on white

Post by madas » Tue May 14, 2013 4:44 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Johan,

It is a proven CHF no doubt, just wondering (breeder is) why the faded blue overlay?
looks cinnamon to me...
Closeup pic of the feet would help to identify. ;)

madas

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sun May 26, 2013 8:38 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Indigo blue & Blue next to each other

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indigoNblue1.jpg

Is it possible to have an IndigoBlue without the Green patches? My newest bird looks exactly like your IndigoBlue- I have her in with my Blue cock and the difference is very noticable when together- but not so when she is on her own- (you'd probably think she was Blue). Breeder said she was a TurquoiseBlue (parents were said to be Turqblue x Turqblue- no one is real familiar with the term Indigo yet- so, one or both of them could have been).
Last edited by sheyd on Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun May 26, 2013 8:53 pm

Shey,

Yes you can, if the bird is not fully matured, it will show eventually. it can be turquoise or indigo depending on parents.
I heard breeders say; in some parblue birds the patches were visible as late as 3 years. :roll:

Recio, is there a way to explain why ?

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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz » Mon May 27, 2013 5:36 am

Hi all,
I have some pics of my Indigo blue cock bird and pics of my first indigo blue babies that were bred in 2008, pics were taken from pin feather stage , light green looking bird to blue looking birds to when the green patches begin to appear to becoming fully coloured indigo blue.some of these pics were sent to Babu who informed me that they were named Indigo and some of the pics were published in the Australian aviary life magazine.ps when I purchased the cock bird it was sold to me as a pastel aqua,that was in 2006 when we didn't know about Indigo.
I can't post links or pics to this site as yet but if anyone is interested I can forward them on to you so that you could post them for me for anyone who is interested to see

Gratz

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Re: white on white

Post by mallee_1 » Mon May 27, 2013 4:24 pm

Hey Gratz,

Good to see you on here, I still have the Indigo violet pallid (lacewing) I bought off you some years ago and she is still a stunning bird, still trying to get some Indigo pallids from her, all have just been violet lacewings, no Indigo as yet, will keep trying, got her paired to cobalt lacewing this year see what happens and also the indigo blue lacewing cock I got from you has coloured up nicely as well, he is paired to a double factor violet lacewing hen this season.

Sorry to others hijacked the original thread message.

Glenn

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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz » Mon May 27, 2013 11:42 pm

Last edited by Gratz on Wed May 29, 2013 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Tue May 28, 2013 12:24 am

Hi everyone,
I am new member to the forum, and have been reading about the conversations about deep green and df deep green. I currently have a deep green/ blue cock paired with a deep green lacewing/blue. The information I can provide I relation to their colour is that they are virtually identical to the normal green variety. I find that the cock has more of an olive colour in his tail and not as much blue.

Possible offspring that I am expecting this season will hopefully include df deep greens, oz deep blues and a small chance of df oz deep blues. Will keep you posted with my results
Cheers,
Kappa.

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Gratz
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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz » Tue May 28, 2013 12:34 am

Image
mature indigo blue cock
Image
indigo blue chick pin feathers
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indigo blue (blue looking birds)
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green patches starting to appear
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maturing and looking greener
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mature hen now 4yo
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indigo blue and violet (indigo violet baby at 12 months)
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indigo violet as rising 2yo
sorry about the previous post still had my L Plates on
Thanks Glenn,great to hear from you

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 28, 2013 12:46 am

Hi Kappa,

Welcome to the forum.
I'm assuming you live in Oz?

Would you be able to tell us more re:
the origin of the Oz green deeps?
parents of the birds?
did you breed with any green deeps yet? to confirm deep blue offspring?
How did you identify the deep green pallid from a normal green pallid?
as you said, it's almost identical to wildtype green and pallid will not make it any easier.

perpahs some pictures which you can email me & i can upload for you
ringneck @ techemail.com

Cheers
Ben

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Tue May 28, 2013 2:40 am

Hi Ben,

Yes I am from oz.

I bought these birds off a friend who has some of the original Jack Smith deep greens and some of the very first oz deep blues. The birds I have are actually half brother and sister. They share the same deep green mother. The cocks father was a oz deep blue and the hens father was a deep green pallid. It is only by knowing the back grounds of the birds that I am confident that they are both deeps. As I mentioned before, visually the sf deep greens are difficult to tell apart from the wild green type.
They are rising 4yr olds and I had them with normal blues last season to try and breed some deep blues, however the cock was with a 2yr old hen who wasn't sure what to do. The hen was with a blue split pallid and they produced a normal blue and a normal (possible deep) green.
This season I will put them together and see what happens.

I will endeavour to take some photos that may be of some use and email them to you.

Kappa.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue May 28, 2013 2:56 am

Kappa,

Great to have you with us.
It will help a lot confirming the phenotype of the deep green.

Ron has some sf & df deep green pics from Jack S. i will upload them as well for comparison if Ron finds them and emails them to me. Willy, i think the pics you uploaded might just be the true deep green perhaps same pics originally from Jack? :?:



Gratz
Thanks for the Indigo pictures, Great work.



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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Tue May 28, 2013 3:28 am

Ben-cheers
yes, she is still a baby (8 months) so has a bit of maturing yet to do- so, Turquoise or Indigo (on Blue) darkens the base and adds a greenish tinge and then eventually patches (in the case of my bird and others like her).

Gratz- great pics, thanks for sharing.

Kappa- am looking forward to pics of your Deep Greens.

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Tue May 28, 2013 5:26 am

Kappa wrote:I will endeavour to take some photos that may be of some use and email them to you.

Kappa.
Hi Kappa, welcome to the forum! :D I'm really looking forward to those pictures, esp. if you can capture it with a normal green bird in the same picture as a reference.

As a point of interest, does the deep green birds show small patches of blue on the wings (covert feathers)?

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Wed May 29, 2013 1:50 am

Hi Johan,

I unfortunately don't have a normal green to use as a reference, but I will take some photos anyway. It is dark by the time I get home from work so the photos will have to wait until the weekend, when I will email them to Ben. He may also be able to upload some photos of normal green birds that can be used as a comparison. As for the blue spots in the wings, I think he does but I will double check that for you.
Cheers
Kappa

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:39 am

Kappa's sf Green Deep


Image


Image



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Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:49 am

Cheers Kappa, and to Ben for uploading the pics.

The first pic with a flash makes one not expecting the following pics- would you say the blue in the tail is bluer than a Wildtype- (Wildtype to me looks more teal)?

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:34 am

Well, as we can see from the deep green pics Deep is lightly diff. to what we expected, nothing like the dark which i guess it's a good thing as we will be able to differentiate between dark n deep in green series birds but i wonder if it is easy to differentiate between deep green and wildtype :?: . I must get a deep green asap.

Ron will also send me the pics of deep green in sf df from the man: Jack Smith.
I think the df deep green Willy posted is the photo Ron is going to send me. I believe this photo is
from Jack as i know he used aviaries with chicken wire.
Here's the pic that Willy uploaded a while back
DF Deep green
Image

Kappa, does this pic look like the DF deep green to you?

The phenotype looks very much like the Jade green cheek conures in sf & df (esp. when flash is used)
rustic look


83IV

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:10 am

Hi everyone,

First I would like to thank Ben for posting the photos for me. I hope that they were helpful.
I will, if that's ok, send some more photos to Ben including some of the deep green pallid hen. If was too hard to hold the bird in one hand and take photos with the other, I will have an extra pair of hands tomorrow.
The blue in the tail is definately different from that of the normal green, it seems more blue. He also has some blue patches on the leading edge of his wings and the flights and tail show olive highlights in different lighting conditions. The flash photo demonstrates this. However, this doesn't help much because in certain lighting conditions he looks like a normal green. The difference is very subtle.

I haven't seen a df deep as most breeders I know have been more interested in breeding the deep blue,and haven't really thought about what df deep green would look like.

Ben that photo you posted is what I would expect of a df deep, and is what I am hoping for this season. The olive would definately come through more.
Cheers,
Kappa

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:45 am

back to the drawing board

Yep, true that.

Kappa's pics of Deep Green


Firstly we need to see a deep blue offspring from these birds to confirm them as being deep,
i am not doubting Kappa, we just need to be 100% certain what we're looking at are indeed deep greens since they are so close to a wildtype how can one be sure the birds carry the deep mutation?


As Kappa said, he will try to get a wildtype green to compare birds in same shot (photo)
Very hard to tell the difference between Kappa's Deep Green male & a normal green. pics are very tricky, as Willy says; birds to compare should be taken in the same photo otherwise it's pointless.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:49 am

Kappa
In this pic the male looks like a normal green but the hen you can see the rustic look to her.
Are you sure both greens in this pic are green deep?
Image

below a 2 pics of my green irn (wildtype)
Image

Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:19 am

Hi Ben,
The photo of the green cock and hen are actually wild type greens belong to someone else, but as you have mentioned the hen does have a rusty colour in her flights. So it begs the question is there deep greens out there that breeders are not aware of having, and being passed off as normals?

Also when comparing your wild type green it looks as if the blue in his tail extends much further up than it does on my deep. I need to chase up a normal green ASAP and take photos of it with my deep so that an accurate comparison can be made. In the end we may find that they carry the deep gene, but it might not manifest itself visually in sf. This however, only raises more questions because how can we then account for sf deep blue being visually different from a normal blue? Does the blue activate a new gene or does the green mask the deep? More questions than answers at the moment.
Cheers,
Kappa.

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:24 am

Hi Ben,
Just had another idea, can you please take a photo of your normal green cock bird under darkish conditions using a flash. I am curious is see how much of the rusty colour is exposed on him.
Thanks,
Kappa.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:36 am

In the end we may find that they carry the deep gene, but it might not manifest itself visually in sf. This however, only raises more questions because how can we then account for sf deep blue being visually different from a normal blue? Does the blue activate a new gene or does the green mask the deep? More questions than answers at the moment.
Kappa, not a lot of questions.. think of process of Dark green + blue = Cobalt
green deep + blue = sf Deep blue

it is that simple, and it will manifest in sf. deep blue ; easy to identify against a blue

what i want to learn is how to identify wildtype V deep green

*** I removed the 1st pic as it was not the deep greens but wildtype off the net.






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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:57 pm

Here is my Wildtype mature hen- (taken on sunny morning with iPhone4) if it helps.

Really need to get the possible sf Deep Green in the same pic with a Wildtype (with and without flash) for a true comparison- as there are far too many variables I think.

the Blue (in the aviary) in the first pic can be used as a reference for tail colour of Wildtype.

Image
Image
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:09 am

Hi Sheyd,
Thanks for the photos. I know until I take a photo with a normal and deep together we can only speculate about the differences. I am still convinced that the deep has less blue in the tail. In the photos that you and Ben have posted of normals, the blue extends right up to the rump where as in the photos of my deep the blue seems to stop half way. I will attempt to have a normal green cock organised for the weekend so that we have some answers.
Cheers,
Kappa.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:37 pm

Kappa wrote:Hi Sheyd,
Thanks for the photos. I know until I take a photo with a normal and deep together we can only speculate about the differences. I am still convinced that the deep has less blue in the tail. In the photos that you and Ben have posted of normals, the blue extends right up to the rump where as in the photos of my deep the blue seems to stop half way. I will attempt to have a normal green cock organised for the weekend so that we have some answers.
Cheers,
Kappa.
If these were my birds I'd be test breeding them with proven reg Blue breeders -making sure that the cock bird (for the Pallid) is not split to anything.
If they are Deep, then you should expect to get at least 1 or 2 (Deep Blues) over a couple of clutches, provided that one or both of your birds are split to Blue.

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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:10 am

Shey,

They are actually both split for blue, and I had them paired with normal blues last season. However, I didn't have much luck. The cock was with a 2yr old first time breeding hen who didn't know what to do with the nest box and laid her eggs off the perch. The hen was with a blue cock and they had a normal blue and a normal (possible deep) green.

The aim of putting them together this season was to specifically try and breed a df deep green/blue hen, as I am trying to breed out the pallid.

Hopefully I have more luck this year.
Regards,
Kappa.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:50 am

yes, sorry missed that bit. Here's hoping you get 1 or 2 DF or SF Deep Blue's in your clutch to prove the point of them being Deep bred birds- I wouldn't rule out other mutations for them yet though.

Looking forward to more pics of the Green (if you can). Q: In the pics he appears to have a lighter body than his head- can you confirm?

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:29 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Indigo blue & Blue next to each other

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indigoNblue1.jpg

Is it possible to have an IndigoBlue without the Green patches? My newest bird looks exactly like your IndigoBlue- I have her in with my Blue cock and the difference is very noticable when together- but not so when she is on her own- (you'd probably think she was Blue). Breeder said she was a TurquoiseBlue (parents were said to be Turqblue x Turqblue- no one is real familiar with the term Indigo yet- so, one or both of them could have been).
thought I should add a pic of her (taken today with iPhone)
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:00 pm

IndigoBlues can take until the 2nd big moult at 15mo before they show any patching.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:40 pm

trabots wrote:IndigoBlues can take until the 2nd big moult at 15mo before they show any patching.
So, IndigoBlue then, not TurquoiseBlue?
Am looking forward to the end of the year :)

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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:38 am

trabots wrote:IndigoBlues can take until the 2nd big moult at 15mo before they show any patching.
Willy, have you experienced this often? The indigoblues I've bred have always shown green patches when they emerge from the nest even before their first 3 month moult.

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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:02 pm

Sorry to step in here,
Johan, the pics I posted earlier in this thread show the indigo blue chicks in the nest , they look like a pale green like emerald no sign of turquoise whereas a turquoise show up on the tips of the pin feathers in the nest, when they fledge they look like normal blue birds ( see the pics of the birds after the pics of inside the nestbox) the green patches only start to appear after a year or so, then when fully matured the bird seems to appear more emerald like (see the pic with the violet blue cock bird).this pair only produced 1 indigo baby which happened to be violet , in the pics you will see that the Indigo violet blue baby looks like a violet blue , even with a close up you can miss that the bird is Indigo. the next pic shows clearly that the bird is a Indigo violet blue (pic taken after 12 months).
Shey
the only way for you to know if the bird is indigo is by looking at the parents, if they look like the hen in the pic I posted or the cock bird in the very first pic or if you have a pic of the bird in the nest, if you don't have any of these then you just have to wait till the bird is around 15 months old. Just as point of interest one of the 2 hens in the pic was paired up to a cleartail cock bird in 2011, they had 4 chicks 2 turned out to be Indigo blue split cleartails but you couldn't tell them apart when they fledged but you could tell there were 2 in the nest.
hope this helps
Gratz

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:46 pm

Hi Gratz,

Great set of pics.
you said:
the pics I posted earlier in this thread show the indigo blue chicks in the nest , they look like a pale green like emerald no sign of turquoise whereas a turquoise show up on the tips of the pin feathers in the nest

I also agree with above, turquoise birds by the time they fledge would show visible signs of being turquoise.
Can we confirm the above !? does everyone agree? their turquoise by the time it fledged one can tell if turq. or not?

I ask this because if this is true (consistent) for everyone then it is only Indigo that would show patches later on, and this will be a marker we can use to identify birds being indigo or turquoise. Esp. young birds that come from parents we are not certain if turquoise or indigo.





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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:26 am

Hi Ben

Thanks for adding that , I forgot to mention that I also have bred many turquoise before the Indigo surfaced. Yes you are spot on when you say that you can tell if you have a turquoise as soon as the chicks fledge. From my experience you can tell them apart in the nest but if every chick in the nest is blue or if all the chicks are Indigo , it will be very difficult to know what you will end up with. In saying that I found that it is very rare to have a complete nest of Indigo blue , usually 1 or 2 out of 4 end up being Indigo , now if you have turquoise in the nest you will identify them very easily . Another thing I would like to add here is that you will not breed turquoise from an Indigo (unless you pair it up to a turquoise , which I would not recommend )
I hope everyone else that has bred Indigo blues shares the same view, looking forward to read some comments to Bens question

Gratz

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:36 am

Gratz wrote: Shey
the only way for you to know if the bird is indigo is by looking at the parents, if they look like the hen in the pic I posted or the cock bird in the very first pic or if you have a pic of the bird in the nest, if you don't have any of these then you just have to wait till the bird is around 15 months old. Just as point of interest one of the 2 hens in the pic was paired up to a cleartail cock bird in 2011, they had 4 chicks 2 turned out to be Indigo blue split cleartails but you couldn't tell them apart when they fledged but you could tell there were 2 in the nest.
hope this helps
Gratz
Hi Glen, I don't have pics of that particular clutch but do have some pics of a clutch from the same hen (and cock) that were pulled a month before - I also have a pic of the hen. These are not my pics to post so I'll pm them to you (and anyone else who maybe interested) to analyze if you want? I'll let you decide if she's a Indigo(df?) or a TurquoiseBlue- as I'm not sure.

Here are some more pics to get a 'feel' for my birds colour- (taken today with iPhone so quality isn't there- Blue cock in the last two can be used as a reference)
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:50 am

Shey

is she's Indigo(df?)
no
it is a blue bird how can it be df (homozygous) parblue??
i see no turquoiseblue either.


Use confirmed pictures of confirmed df indigo, df turq to compare.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:37 am

Ben. I didn't post the pic of the dam of my bird on this thread so no, you wouldn't be able to tell if df Indigo or sf TurquoiseBlue :wink:

Yes, I agree she (my bird) does look blue, but not when paired with an actual Blue (please refer to my pics) though like I said the quality isn't good and obviously she looks "greener" or I like to say "tinted green" irl.

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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:55 am

Shey,
S-times i read posts too fast and miss out on info ;) the side effects of multi-tasking :d
I will re-read your post again later when i get some time.



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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:58 am

Shey

Would it be possible to post a pic of the bird in question towards the front of the cage with the blue cock bird in the background

Thanks

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:02 am

I will do my best.

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Re: white on white

Post by trabots » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:02 am

I said "can" , you are correct most will be identified after the 1st moult. This df Indigo hen was thought to be a very lightly patched IndigoBlue after the 1st moult and now after the 2nd is obviously a df Indigo.


Image

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:06 am

sorry I tried but couldn't get him to go to the back- it's not his aviary (anymore), she is an aviary bird he is a h/r pet that lives in another cage, so she actually worries him flying about like a mad woman lol.

I'll just wait until the big molt at the end of this year- I'll know (and you'll know) by then.

One other thing- I was wrong about the hen's (in question) parents both being Turquoiseblue /Indigoblues/ Indigos- Only the dam hen is a Parblue- the sire cock is Blue. Apparently according to the breeder, the hen has only ever had "pastel" chicks all bar two (and mine apparently) is not one of the two.

Anyhow we will see how this pans out.

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:43 pm

here are the best I could do- sorry the quality is worse in these as I used my iPhone which is older than the one I previously used- (I really miss my camera)

Reg Blue is on the outside of same wire as bird in question. they are on the same panel so is accurate of colour (difference).

Anyway, these show a clear difference in hue.

Image
Image
Image

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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:47 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Shey,
S-times i read posts too fast and miss out on info ;) the side effects of multi-tasking :d
I will re-read your post again later when i get some time.


Yeah, I've been guilty of that at times too- all good 8)

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