New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

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Lushen1600
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Lushen1600 »

Hi Lee, I totally agree with you on this subject

Thanks
Lushen
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king kong
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by king kong »

Hi molossus
u r 100% true me too sometimes think about the criteria of announcing the mutation but i must admit that i wasnt having courage to say it openly becos i lack knowledge in genetics
but u said so, and i stands with u :mrgreen:
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

Molussus, the key criteria needs to be that it is the homozygous bird which is being put forward as the new mutation. As proven in the Parblues only the homozygous birds provided the phenotypical differences to disprove the Bastiaan promoted myth that Turquoise IRNs, whether having a single or double gene, were indistinguishable. His book is full of examples of IndigoBlues without his recognition they were not TurquoiseBlue. Why is 'sapphire' accepted when no df bird has ever been documented?
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

Sjack only recognises the Turq as the mutation and the rest as variants of turq
Sjack never posted images of the homozygous Turquoise as he says they are phenotypically the same whether homo or hetero. I don't know how many times I have to post the images of df Turquoise and df Indigo to show that the phenotypes are not the same and thus cannot be the same mutation. Babu also only ever refers to the heterozygous Turquoise and Indigo in his magazine article. In these instances one has to 'play the man' as they are supposed to be the guru gods of IRN breeding. To miss the fact that these birds look different when they possess 2 genes strikes me as very odd. Same with Inte, to totally disregard without comment the different colour of the DF Deep Blue feather in his 'study' was plain unscientific. That is 3 major gurus and 3 major lapses. Terry Martin has said he "wouldn't bet his house on Deep being a new mutation" yet he never addressed the clearly different phenotype of the DF Deep Blue. Make that 4.

IndigoBlue, df IndigoBlue
[urlImage][/url]

df Turquoise, TurquoiseBlue
[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]

df TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon, TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon
img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums ... .jpg[/img]

Turquoise differences
[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

somehow this didn't transfer

df Turquoise Cinnamon, TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon

[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

can you start a new thread on the parblues with pics and include the saphire if possible?
I don't have a 'sapphire'. I have a bird bred from an IndigoBlue which fit Babu's description of 'sapphire'. It is in a flight with 100 other IRNs so hard to photograph. Babu has never produced an image of a 'sapphire' or even described a homozygous Parblue nor has Bastiaan. I have asked if anyone else has with nobody coming forward. This 'sapphire' is like Hep C it seems it will not go away. Until it shows itself I wish it would go away. If it does get confirmed I would only be extremely happy at being wrong. Until then however .........
Johan S
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Johan S »

This is really a very good topic. Back in the day, clubs would label a new mutation, and if we were lucky, that would transfer through to the surrounding region and maybe the rest of the country (even continent). It had it's obvious flaws, being that the same mutation was labeled differently in Europe, SA, Oz, America. etc. That is the very reason Terry started his mailing list. Unfortunately, as with all things, technology evolved and my personal belief is that most mailing lists have run their course when this very type of forum platform saw the light. And unfortunately we have seen a rapid decline in Terry's list. So we have two options, we can revert back to regional naming (terrible idea, I know!), or start using this forum. The gurus seems to have stopped posting, so now it becomes the responsibility of the hobbyist. There are enough of them to tackle this scientifically, albeit only on phenotype and breeding outcomes. So post new mutations up on this forum for discussion and advice.

PS: we should get a new parblue topic and discuss that again. :D
Ring0Neck
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Ring0Neck »


I have a homo Turquoise & a poss homo Indigo Pallid hen (from you Willy)
Should i breed these two together to see what offspring we're getting?
We should get Indigo Tuquoises - one phenotype & genotype parblue

Then, to compare offspring against other birds i will get from other nests. Turquoises & Indigoz

8 3 IV
Johan S
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Johan S »

molossus wrote:Johan I agree with you that its time for hobbyists to involve themselves in the naming process. But I am very concious of our interdependence(hobbyist and scientist). What happens when Terry Martin(or any other scientist) needs to write an updated works...where does he get his reference material...Any thinking person can see the need one has for the other.
Lee, of course I agree that the scientists are necessary. But what do hobbyists do when the scientists vanish from the scene? We need to go on without them until they decide to return. This forum isn't a secret. It is very public and they are also more than welcome to join the discussions. And make no mistake, there are many books published with no or little regard for the scientific process, where published facts and/or opinions are sourced from Internet discussions and private correspondence with breeders.
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

Ring0Neck wrote:
I have a homo Turquoise & a poss homo Indigo Pallid hen (from you Willy)
Should i breed these two together to see what offspring we're getting?
We should get Indigo Tuquoises - one phenotype & genotype parblue

Then, to compare offspring against other birds i will get from other nests. Turquoises & Indigoz

8 3 IV
Ben, you will breed IndigoTurquoise homoalleles and if 100% are, then you know both birds are homozygous. What then happens to these birds? You will have all cocks split Pallid and a big problem getting rid of them and not really giving any new information. The IndigoTurquoise birds will be in between in phenotype and probably very hard to identify and probably impossible until a year old.
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

I don't have a 'sapphire'. I have a bird bred from an IndigoBlue which fit Babu's description of 'sapphire'. It is in a flight with 100 other IRNs so hard to photograph.
I managed to get an image. Not quite in focus sorry however the colours are right and you can see the pale yellow head which is much lighter than normal for an IndigoBlue Pallid. It has finished moulting. You can also see the greatly reduced patches. I did not know it was IndigoBlue until at least 6 months.

light IndigoBlue Violet Pallid 1yo
Image[/url][/quote]

IndigoBlue Pallid
[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]

So after seeing these is 'sapphire' real or a variation on IndigoBlue?
Carr.birds
Posts: 230
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Carr.birds »

Lee, of course I agree that the scientists are necessary. But what do hobbyists do when the scientists vanish from the scene? We need to go on without them until they decide to return. This forum isn't a secret. It is very public and they are also more than welcome to join the discussions. And make no mistake, there are many books published with no or little regard for the scientific process, where published facts and/or opinions are sourced from Internet discussions and private correspondence with breeders.


Johan I agree with your opinion, we must go on. I don't think all of the scientists are breeders like us. We breed, observe and share our experience with other breeders. This is the only way to get the correct answers. I were told by 2 of the Guru's that Sjack Bastiaan is the only breeder who owns Bronze Fallow IRN's without any proof of test breeding with other a-locus alleles and today I have my doubts that they are Bronze Fallow.

Willy I agree with your opinion about deep and indigo. It is almost unbelievable to see such a huge difference in the flight feathers between indigo blue and df indigo.

Tienie
Ring0Neck
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Ring0Neck »

Willy said: So after seeing these is 'sapphire' real or a variation on IndigoBlue?


I think we should discuss the Saphire before we move on to a diff. subject.

I'm not convinced, and we don't seem to have enough evidence to warrant it as a mutation yet.

I personally think of Saphire as a variation for the time being.

Madas, as Willy suggested, you should perhaps add Azure to your Calculator and remove Saphire for now.

What do you guys think?

Ben
trabots
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by trabots »

Ring0Neck wrote:
Willy said: So after seeing these is 'sapphire' real or a variation on IndigoBlue?


I think we should discuss the Saphire before we move on to a diff. subject.

I'm not convinced, and we don't seem to have enough evidence to warrant it as a mutation yet.

I personally think of Saphire as a variation for the time being.

Madas, as Willy suggested, you should perhaps add Azure to your Calculator and remove Saphire for now.

What do you guys think?

Ben
There certainly isn't "enough evidence to warrant it as a mutation yet". No df 'sapphire'. The 'azure' is in the same category. If one really wants to do hypotheticals then why not have the calculator include a non specific mutation for each inheritance type (SL, REC, DOM), then we can fantasize all we want?
madas
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: Madas, as Willy suggested, you should perhaps add Azure to your Calculator and remove Saphire for now.
No i don't. I have added it only for the Aussie Guys. Once it is in it never would be removed. :D
Azure = Sapphire both are unproven. So why should i add a new unproven mutation on one side and on the other side
remove another unproven. Stupid isn't it? But if you like i can add Azure.

My gencalc is planed to address and calc the results for all known mutations (so you know one which isn't available please tell me) whether they are proven
or not. If you don't agree with one or some of these mutations just ignore them. But people who like them and think they are proven mutation can use them
to calc thier results. I think it's a fair deal. :)

madas
madas
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by madas »

trabots wrote:There certainly isn't "enough evidence to warrant it as a mutation yet". No df 'sapphire'. The 'azure' is in the same category. If one really wants to do hypotheticals then why not have the calculator include a non specific mutation for each inheritance type (SL, REC, DOM), then we can fantasize all we want?
Well said.

@all: Do you really think i should add any 'unproven' as rec, sl and dom mutation? Or should i add it only in the mutation section for its known inheritance?

For 'sapphire' i think there is only one opportunity as parblue.

madas
prodigy
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by prodigy »

Azure ?

Image
prodigy
Posts: 341
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by prodigy »

will do thanks !.........normal cobalt might be a problem ;-)
Skyes_crew
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Re: New Mutations: Process for Identifying and naming

Post by Skyes_crew »

Out of curiosity...was that bird found to be a normal blue?
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
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