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What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

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Farzz1
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What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:26 pm

Hi all
I have been asking around for the difference between deep and cobolt ? only to determine if the deep mutation is a combination of violet ,blue and cobolt but in the blue series would that be possible
many thanks

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prodigy
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by prodigy » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:52 pm

Hi

Deep has nothing to do with Violet at all, the quick and nasty answer to you question is:

Deep x Deep = DF Deep (A very deep blue bird)

Cobalt x Cobalt + Mauve (An almost Grey looking bird)

The combination of Violet Blue and Cobalt = Violet Cobalt

Regards,

Peter

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:54 pm

Hi Peter
I disagree as deep is a blue series bird . The images shown is what cobolt looks like but when paired with the same does not produce a mauve or df violet .Deep is in my opinion a combination of cobolt and violet when paired together do not produce mauve or violet but darker blue birds which carry the behaviour pattern of the a cobolt violet combination . if this deep mutation is what it is why havent we had an exhistance in the other colours? ie grey surely a light grey, grey,deep grey and charcoal to black looking bird should exhist ?
Futher i have seen a violet blue bird in my opinion its a violet with alot of blue in it however when paired with a blue bird produced a violet and the so called deep bird and a cobolt which was much rich in colour . so how does that alter what have said that the supposidly is a new mutation

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Ring0Neck
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:23 pm

Futher i have seen a violet blue bird in my opinion its a violet with alot of blue in it however when paired with a blue bird produced a violet and the so called deep bird and a cobolt which was much rich in colour . so how does that alter what have said that the supposidly is a new mutation
Firstly, i have seen ...you have seen, looks like ...don't cut it when it comes to Genetical makeup of a bird.
Just because it looked different does not automatically make it a Deep mutation far from it. call it half cooked violet or cobalt.
i have seen a violet blue bird in my opinion its a violet with alot of blue in it
how did this violet with lots of blue bred a cobalt and something else when it was paired to a blue? i don't get it, genetically does not make sense.
Deep is in my opinion a combination of cobolt and violet
Based on what did you form that opinion? again what you have seen or heard?.. any breeder can tell you that your conclusion is without a doubt wrong.

I suggest you buy a few books on genetics, we can recommend some if you like.
Excuse my brut approach but you called it with a disagreement without anything that makes sense.
Many people call their light cobalt birds Deep which is wrong. Buy a deep mutation from a reputable breeder that can show breeding results and bloodline confirmation as to being a Deep mutation, breed with it then you can argue with facts if you have any.

If we were to take your approach on mutations this bird below would obviously be an Albino (a lutino with lots of blue)


Image

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:06 am

Farrz1, you are just a bit confused. All the mutations you mentioned, Deep, Violet, Dark (Cobalt = Dark Blue) are individual mutations which can occur in Green OR Blue series birds. They all just darken a green bird to varying degrees. As was mentioned a DF Dark Blue is a grey coloured bird called a Mauve, not very pretty but handy for breeding. Both Deep and Violet DF into darker versions of the SF Deep and Violet. All three can combine as in Deep Dark Blue or Deep Violet Blue or Dark Violet Blue etc etc. SF = one gene for the mutation. DF = two genes. When you start breeding these mutations and start combining them you immediately notice how close they look in some light and in other light how different they can be. This is the structural colour effect (no pigments involved) which produces the blues that we see and which can change what we see due to angle of incidence of the light its intensity and also the colour of the light which can change due to atmospheric conditions etc etc. The combination birds are even harder to ascertain such as a Deep Violet Blue is very hard to tell apart from a Dark Violet Blue or a DF Violet and so on. Look at my Photobucket library (Trabots) for images of most of these.

Don't be disheartened but do get Colour Mutations & Genetics in Parrots by Terry Martin from Birdkeeper magazine and have a very enjoyable read just as I did when I started breeding these critters. In fact I would say this book is essential.

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Lushen1600
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Lushen1600 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:36 am

Hi all would it be correct in assuming that Deep is then a structural mutation and would act in the same way that Violet and Grey acts on both Green and Blue series birds.

What I mean by this is that in Blue Series we get

Violet(sf)Blue = Violet Blue
Grey(sf)Blue = Grey
Deep(sf)Blue = Deep Blue

So in the same sense would it act on green as follows

Violet(sf)Green = Violet Green
Grey(sf)Green = Greygreen
Deep(sf)Green = Deep Green <---- has this bird been bred???

Also if one were to pair a Deep(df)blue to a blue would all the chicks be Deep(sf)blue???

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:39 am

Deep(sf)Green = Deep Green <---- has this bird been bred???
Yes, and in DF Deep Green also.

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:23 am

Peter let me rekindle your thoughts i am one of the very few bird breeders that have the deep mutation and alot of dominat pied as i have gathered that my stupid question might have rubed you in the wrong direction but to reasure you i have seen the birds from babu chauhan in england physically and inported the birds from him i have both the bloodlines the aus and the english version trust me there is no difference and once paird with sa birds the do produce different birds so try not to approach me in a different limeligtht as i have the birds and have bred with the deep mutation and trust me there is nothing fantastic about them just a different blue bird

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:25 am

in the pic none of the combination of colours you mentioned make that bird its obisiouly a dominat pied

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Ring0Neck
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:09 am

Hi Farzz1

You're almost right, a dom. df pied looks almost white in colour.
Although this mutation is called clear wing clear tail (not many around)
No offence intended previously, i just wanted to point out that there are logical steps to understanding a mutation without jumping to conclusions. We all think many things, but breeding results always has the last word.
I always question everything, but i am also very carefull how i draw a conclusion.

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:09 am

once again thanks for that had i the full picture i would have determined that , a friend has imported that bird from babu chauhan its is here in sa alot more is to be bred and indeed a rare bird .are you sure that the bird in the pic is a ctcflight bird ?

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Ring0Neck
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:39 am

Farzz1

I am not 100% but it is on Chris's website - someone else's bird.
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/mutations/

the DF pied pic from same website here:
Image

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:31 am

Hi Ring0neck
Indeed i reconised that bird , a rare df pied that bird is now in holand apparently that the outcome of emerald dom pied df i thing more is to be established i was offered that bird to purchace but it worked out to be too expensive as i just imported a shipment of dom pied from aus at the time , my bad luck :(

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:50 am

this is a pic of the clear flight sent to me from babu and the same bird was exported to sa

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:07 am

i think i have uploaded a pic

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:08 am

hi can anybody help me upload a pic i am really finding this a challenge

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madas
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by madas » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:26 am

Send me the pic via email i will upload it for you.

madas

Johan S
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Johan S » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:08 am

Farzz1 wrote:Hi Peter
I disagree as deep is a blue series bird . The images shown is what cobolt looks like but when paired with the same does not produce a mauve or df violet .Deep is in my opinion a combination of cobolt and violet when paired together do not produce mauve or violet but darker blue birds which carry the behaviour pattern of the a cobolt violet combination . if this deep mutation is what it is why havent we had an exhistance in the other colours? ie grey surely a light grey, grey,deep grey and charcoal to black looking bird should exhist ?
Futher i have seen a violet blue bird in my opinion its a violet with alot of blue in it however when paired with a blue bird produced a violet and the so called deep bird and a cobolt which was much rich in colour . so how does that alter what have said that the supposidly is a new mutation
Farzz1, you are wrong, I'm afraid. Deep is most certainly not a blue series bird. It has been conclusively shown to be incomplete dominant and certainly exists in the green series. Furthermore, deep is not a combination of cobalt and violet. Actually, when talking combinations, you'll find it the other way around with some 'violet' birds in SA being sold actually being a combination of cobalt and deep. At least, what some breeders here reckon to be the same mutation as the Oz deep that was imported here and to Oz from Europe. I know a couple of breeders that have paired a 'violet' x 'violet' to breed mauve. How could that happen? Exactly the same way that you describe the breeding results you have observed. If we assume 'violet' = cobalt deep, then cobalt deep x blue could breed cobalt, 'poor quality cobalt' = deep and 'violet' = cobalt deep. Just like cobalt deep x cobalt deep could breed mauve...

Some food for thought, and once you have digested the possibility, then we can discuss. :D

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madas
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by madas » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:19 am

Here are the pics of Farzz1:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

madas

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:33 am

thanks Midas for the upload i found that a challenge

Pic 1 is the clear flight blue sold to a south african breeder from babu chauhan ref Ring0neck the clear flight pic
Pic 3, is my reference to the deep that has been bred via a combination of blue cobolt and violet
Pic 5 is the deep that has been bred via the english and the aus both parents have been imported to sa
the remainder of the pics help me identify them and Johan i think you have taken them out ? :D

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:13 pm

hi all
Once again i have rubed the forum in the wrong direction however to be discussed show me a deep mutation in any other colour for example grey does that exhist ?

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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:43 pm

Hi all
I am very interested has anybody bred the deep bird in any other colour? and does DEEP mutation exist in other birds?

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Ring0Neck
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:18 pm

Farzz1

If you were to acquire say Azure or a similar new mutation would you put it to a grey?
It is obvious that you will not.
I will pair deep to a grey this coming season and i will keep everyone posted on this forum.

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sheyd
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by sheyd » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:36 pm

*bare with me...I'm learning!*
Is Deep a rare mutation? How many birds are estimated to have it? Can anyone share pictures of Deep birds or tell me where to find pictures of them? I'd like like to see the way it interacts with base colours.

Thanks

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:38 pm

I am very interested has anybody bred the deep bird in any other colour?
I have personally bred Deep IndigoBlue, Deep Pallid, Deep Pallid IndigoBlue, Deep EmeraldBlue, Deep TurquoiseBlue, Deep Violet Blue, DF Deep TurquoiseBlue. Ron has bred Deep Cinnamon Blue, Deep Dark Blue, Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue in addition to the combos I have just listed and probably others also. I also have Deep Violet TurquoiseBlue from another breeder.

Farrz1 you are on a mission to deny the uniqueness of the Deep and you insist that your 'Deep' Blue is a combination of Violet Blue and Cobalt. I have told you to stop emailing me privately with your beliefs and to discuss them openly on this forum. You have advised that you bred from one of these Violet Cobalt birds to a Deep Blue from Babu a DF Deep thereby proving what you say yet amongst all the images you sent me not one has a DF Deep Blue identified and none have another known mutation alongside to compare. The following re-posted image is an example of what you should strive to be doing if you have any hope of convincing people of anything AND learn some basic genetics.

Deep Blue, Blue, Dark Blue
[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:54 pm

hi
Definatly i will post the pics of them as there are two lots of birds one set i have in my averies and the other at my dad"s once i visit my dad soon i will take out the pics and post them , unfortunatly i am not on a mission to destroy the deep theory but somthing unique has happen in my breeding which defies what is said about the deep bird . once i have the pic i will post them for now we can leave the topic open-ended

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Ring0Neck
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:04 pm

somthing unique has happen in my breeding which defies what is said about the deep bird

Then it is rather obvious that your bird is not a Deep

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Lushen1600
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Lushen1600 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:37 pm

trabots wrote:
I am very interested has anybody bred the deep bird in any other colour?
I have personally bred Deep IndigoBlue, Deep Pallid, Deep Pallid IndigoBlue, Deep EmeraldBlue, Deep TurquoiseBlue, Deep Violet Blue, DF Deep TurquoiseBlue. Ron has bred Deep Cinnamon Blue, Deep Dark Blue, Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue in addition to the combos I have just listed and probably others also. I also have Deep Violet TurquoiseBlue from another breeder.

Farrz1 you are on a mission to deny the uniqueness of the Deep and you insist that your 'Deep' Blue is a combination of Violet Blue and Cobalt. I have told you to stop emailing me privately with your beliefs and to discuss them openly on this forum. You have advised that you bred from one of these Violet Cobalt birds to a Deep Blue from Babu a DF Deep thereby proving what you say yet amongst all the images you sent me not one has a DF Deep Blue identified and none have another known mutation alongside to compare. The following re-posted image is an example of what you should strive to be doing if you have any hope of convincing people of anything AND learn some basic genetics.

Deep Blue, Blue, Dark Blue
[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]
Hi to me with the above pic looks as if the Deep is definitely a different mutation as with all 3 mutations of deep blue, blue and dark blue in one pic, its obvious that its a different mutation. I do know that in each mutation one would get a range of colouration, meaning if you have to selectively breed blue ringnecks to get out the best blue colouration, you would have better looking blue birds than others and if you would have to put say 30 blues together from different breeders and different bloodlines, you will notice that they may differ slightly in colouration forming a pallette of blues from light to dark, but it will never go to the extent of coming close to a deep blue or dark blue, neither would a very lightly coloured dark blue come close to a deep blue or a blue. So in saying that I have to agree that the deep is another mutation at play and needs more breeding with other mutations to prove to the unbelievers that it is in fact a different mutation

I would like to make it known that I don't have any birds close to this mutation, but am making my comments through observation

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

Johan S
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Johan S » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:54 pm

Farzz1 wrote:the remainder of the pics help me identify them and Johan i think you have taken them out ? :D
Indeed! And there you go tell the entire world how much I try and travel to see birds. :lol:

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:10 pm

This years' young birds during first moult


DF Deep, Violet Mauve, DF Violet, Deep Blues
[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]

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madas
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by madas » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:43 am

Hi Willy,

i there a chance that you can send me this pic in a bigger resolution? Especially i am interested in the mauve violet. If you have some more pics of this birds please feel free to send them too. :D

thx in advance.

PS: Emial = mada_s(at)ymail.com

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:59 pm

[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]

Madas, the violet spots go away however the bird will retain a violet blush on the face and on the rump. I have a 4 yo Violet Mauve cock as well as having bred several more. They are always identifiable when fledging I have found.

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madas
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by madas » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:34 am

trabots wrote:[img]http://i1305.photobucket.com/album ... .jpg[/img]

Madas, the violet spots go away however the bird will retain a violet blush on the face and on the rump. I have a 4 yo Violet Mauve cock as well as having bred several more. They are always identifiable when fledging I have found.
thx Willy. Hopefully my mauve turns out to carry the violet gen gen too this season.

Image

:D

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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:47 pm

Madas that bird is also Opaline, but then you knew that eh?

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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by madas » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:10 am

trabots wrote:Madas that bird is also Opaline, but then you knew that eh?
It's an opaline? Really??? ;) yeap i know it

Do you still thinking it is Mauve Violet?
I agree it's much easier to identify the violet in a mauve if it is a youngster. Remember the pics i have send you
last year. They showed much more violet over the whole body. Not much left at the moment.

greetings.

madas

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:38 am

Madas, look at the darker head colour, the white stripe on the wing, the subtle variations on the back, the tail has much contrast. It is a stunner. Also if it is a Mauve it probably is a Violet, if that was a possible outcome.

Farzz1
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by Farzz1 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:26 pm

Hi
Madas that is definatly a Mauve violet opaline :shock:, a real beauty the violet is visable in the birds above the flight feathers of the bird and the tell-tale signs of an opaline is definatly visable on the bird
Tks

trabots
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Re: What is the differednce between deep and cobolt

Post by trabots » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:31 am

Got me Madas. Gotta look at the smiley's

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