Deep Blue - New Mutation Information

[Ring0Neck]

Hi All,

I just thought i start a fresh new thread dedicated to Deep Mutation !

I'll start with information given to me by one of the breeders that was the 3rd person to obtain this mutation direct from the source, hope that he & willy will contribute to this thread.

Depp Mutation originates from Australia - Victoria, from Jack Smith who is a legend here, he recently passed away and it will be greatly missed by those that knew him and all breeders alike.
He has written a book link here: http://birdkeeper.com.au/abk-bird-books ... ed-edition
He also contributed by importing ringneck mutations legally into Australia, including Harlequin Pied, and i think Opaline? as well.


Jack had a Double Factor Deep Green bird, he had the Deep mutation since 1985,
it was put to blue series birds and it bred the Deep Blues
*Andrew P. got hold of the Deep Blues, then 2 other breeders acquired the Deep Blues from Andrew.
These 3 breeders & Willy have for sure the original Deep Blue mutation. (i'm sure others do, i just don't know others)

* It is believed by breeder i spoke to that Deep mutation is a new mutation not an allele of Dark (more evidence required)
* As Recio mentioned, i and other breeders will test breed deep to identify if mutation is Melanistic. (hope so)
If it is, then anyone who has deep blues and wants to be certain, can test breed to identify their birds as Deep or not.

If Melanistic, does it mean/prove the fact that it is not a Dark mutation?


BeN

[Johan S]

Depp Mutation originates from Australia - Victoria, from Jack Smith who is a legend here ... He also contributed by importing ringneck mutations legally into Australia, including Harlequin Pied, and i think Opaline? as well.
BeN

Hi Ben, I think the way you phrase it in that sentence is misleading. It has been reported that the Deep mutation was discovered (by Jack) in a batch of imported birds from Europe. If I recall correctly, he identified a slightly darker than normal green bird in the batch. It didn't originate in Australia. However, I'm happy to agree that it was more accurately ID'ed in Oz than anywhere else. I'm fairly sure many of these birds found their way into SA as well, and mostly from Belgium, not Australia.

* It is believed by breeder i spoke to that Deep mutation is a new mutation not an allele of Dark (more evidence required)
* As Recio mentioned, i and other breeders will test breed deep to identify if mutation is Melanistic. (hope so)
If it is, then anyone who has deep blues and wants to be certain, can test breed to identify their birds as Deep or not.
BeN

Regarding the allelic relationship with dark, we did breed one of our 'strange looking' cobalts to a mauve to produce two mauve phenotypes. So whatever else that cobalt hen is carrying, isn't an allele of dark. However, I'm not saying that the hen is cobalt deep at this stage. Might be cobalt violet (although I doubt this). I guess if everyone tests the interaction with grey and find something interesting, yet similar happening, then we could add our local dark results with the Australian violet results.

I have, since the last discussion of this topic on the forum, identified a couple of breeders with different phenotypes in their cobalt birds. Most of them aren't even aware of it. Whether deep is going to be a popular mutation in SA remains to be seen. Remember, we have an abundance of dark factor birds here. The earliest ones I could find were a spontaneous appearance of the mutation somewhere around 1995. Ironically, also from European imports as far as I can tell.

So, to put things in perspective, we have discussed in another topic the CHCT and NSLino situation. We share that, but have a different kettle of fish as well. A similar situation is a mixture of dark and something very similar, most probably deep. At least with the dominant mutations, we'll be able to ID them more easily, IF you know what you are looking for.

I have two projects of interest regarding our possible deeps.
1) I would like to isolate it from dark and get to DF
2) I'd like to see the interaction with grey.

Looking forward to the next round of ideas, speculation and results!

[trabots]

What has bothered me ( and a big source of my so-called arrogance) is the apparent limited genetics knowledge displayed by these so called legend breeders. To have had the Deep mutation since the mid eighties and to have never investigated the for sure existence of the homozygous bird amazes me. All mutations will have a homozygous and a heterozygous phenotype, wildtype in the case of the latter if recessive. It was only 4 years ago I believe that the DF Deep mutation was bred, prior to that it was just regarded as a poor quality Cobalt or 'Australian Cobalt'. It took 20 years for someone to look into what happens when you breed Deeps together. Babu's 'Azure' is probably the same as the Deep Blue yet there is nothing I can find about a df 'Azure'.

The same with the Turquoise and Indigos and Emeralds. The famous Bastiaan's book is full of images of both TurquoiseBlues and IndigoBlues with comment even about how the same mutation had such differences. Yet with all that information no thought was given to finding the homozygous Parblues. It was just stated that they all had similar phenotypes. When I first started breeding IRNs 6 years ago I started asking breeders if they had paired TurquoiseBlues etc until finally I found 2 who had and one was the df Turquoise and the other what we now know as df Indigo. In the latter the naming legend Babu seems also to never made mention of the df Indigo even in an article he wrote on the 'Indigo' IRN. Well both birds were totally different from each other and so had to be different Parblue mutations. Boy did I cop the crappola on Terry Martin's website for proposing such heresy, same with the Deep. Even Wynand B. quoted from Bastiaan's book to say I had to be wrong.

In the case of the Emerald, after asking the breeders of these birds for a couple of years where was the df Emerald, Chris Whipps finally looked closely at the young from an EmeraldBlue pairing and there they were, 2 df Emeralds with more psittacin in the flights and tails than their EmeraldBlue nest mates. There were more than a few breeders who had single 'Emerald' birds which bred 100% 'Emeralds' and didn't tweak that they had homozygous birds. If you recall Babu's story about the first wild Emerald which when bred to a Blue produced 100% 'Emeralds', yet no light bulb moment to the realisation they were dealing with a df Emerald. The latter story if taken as truth should negate the proposition that Emerald is incomplete dominant and not Parblue.

Sorry to veer off topic but it has been a tough few years for me in the forum game with so many legends with blindfolds.

[trabots]

Regarding the allelic relationship with dark, we did breed one of our 'strange looking' cobalts to a mauve to produce two mauve phenotypes. So whatever else that cobalt hen is carrying, isn't an allele of dark. However, I'm not saying that the hen is cobalt deep at this stage. Might be cobalt violet (although I doubt this). I guess if everyone tests the interaction with grey and find something interesting, yet similar happening, then we could add our local dark results with the Australian violet results.

Back to the topic. Ron McCullough has bred the Deep Blue to a Cobalt more than once and the resulting Deep Dark Blues can in no way be described as Mauves. They are still blue birds.

I have bred a Deep Violet Blue from a Deep Violet Blue to an EmeraldBlue proving that Deep is not an allele of Dark. I may have a Deep Violet EmeraldBlue this year also, it is a different colour than the Violet EmeraldBlue of Victor Kielor's recently posted here.

Ron asked me what to breed a Deep Dark Blue to next year and I advised him to breed it to anything Blue but with no Grey, Deep, Dark or Violet. If he breeds a Blue or a Deep Dark Blue he will have proved that Deep is not an allele of Dark also.

A SA breeder has contacted me who has one of Babu's Azures and says he doesn't think it is the same as Deep Blue although he doesn't have a Deep Blue. How can he tell without the birds together? With all these non Violet, non Cobalt, darker than Blue phenotypes around in SA, it is imperative that they be bred to other like birds to find the DF phenotypes. Only then can we confidently identify these mutations. Mixing them up before that will certainly do just that.

[Ring0Neck]

Just on what Willy said.

I think it is imperative that one of the breeders acquires a Deep Blue Oz version from one of the breeders we know has Deeps 100%.
I understand that some SA breeders already have Deeps from OZ?
If not, i'd be great if Johan or Molossus etc, gets a Deep Blue from OZ.
This way there is a bird reference for all SA Breeders.
Unless you are confident that it is the same mutation.
Back to melanistic, if we confirm Deep as melanistic mutation then we have a sure way to test Deep birds without a reference bird

Ben

[Johan S]

Regarding the allelic relationship with dark, we did breed one of our 'strange looking' cobalts to a mauve to produce two mauve phenotypes. So whatever else that cobalt hen is carrying, isn't an allele of dark. However, I'm not saying that the hen is cobalt deep at this stage. Might be cobalt violet (although I doubt this). I guess if everyone tests the interaction with grey and find something interesting, yet similar happening, then we could add our local dark results with the Australian violet results.

Back to the topic. Ron McCullough has bred the Deep Blue to a Cobalt more than once and the resulting Deep Dark Blues can in no way be described as Mauves. They are still blue birds.

A SA breeder has contacted me who has one of Babu's Azures and says he doesn't think it is the same as Deep Blue although he doesn't have a Deep Blue. How can he tell without the birds together? With all these non Violet, non Cobalt, darker than Blue phenotypes around in SA, it is imperative that they be bred to other like birds to find the DF phenotypes. Only then can we confidently identify these mutations. Mixing them up before that will certainly do just that.

Hi Willy, you misunderstood, probably because I was too vague. Our pairing was a cobalt x cobalt 'deep' (I'll call it 'deep' for now as it is the best description of the results to date), from which we bred 2 different mauve phenotypes and a cobalt. This shows that there is no allelic relationship with dark and 'deep', or whatever else it is we have. I didn't suggest that deep x cobalt would give mauve, but rather that cobalt x cobalt would. Apologies for the confusion I think we discussed this just before you joined up. It was at this time that I asked Recio if you wouldn't be interested to join our ramblings!. However, we would still require that Ron breed a deep dark blue from one of those deep dark blues x blue to confirm that it's not a partially mutated dark gene.

And I agree that similar phenotypes in the mixed bag of birds in SA should be taken along the DF route. We will be doing just that in our flock.

I think it is imperative that one of the breeders acquires a Deep Blue Oz version from one of the breeders we know has Deeps 100%.
I understand that some SA breeders already have Deeps from OZ?
If not, i'd be great if Johan or Molossus etc, gets a Deep Blue from OZ.
This way there is a bird reference for all SA Breeders.
Unless you are confident that it is the same mutation.
Back to melanistic, if we confirm Deep as melanistic mutation then we have a sure way to test Deep birds without a reference bird

Ben

Hi Ben, that is a rather expensive exercise to establish a reference, esp. when considering the origin of the original birds into both Oz and SA. If there are deeps from Oz, chances are good that they are tied into the emerald or harlequin mutations as combinations. So I'm also not so sure about their immediate usefulness, at least until the a 'clean' deep pops up. Personally, I'll wait for results with grey and our own DF experiments before taking the import route.

[Ring0Neck]

However, we would still require that Ron breed a deep dark blue from one of those deep dark blues x blue to confirm that it's not a partially mutated dark gene.

Ron hopefully will join our conversation soon , and i am hoping he has already done that pairing.
It would be interesting to know all the offspring as we should also see Dark Blue & Deep Blue in the nest.

[trabots]

Johan, I think that I can say with confidence that our Deep Blues in Oz are clean and not mixed with Emerald or 'Harlequin'. In the former I have posted a Deep EmeraldBlue pic which is a green bird and as for Dominant Pied, it is what it is and if it is there in any bird it is seen with a single gene present.

Ben I wonder what you folks are on about Deep being Melanistic. In my experience with Melanistic Rainbow lorikeets firstly it is recessive, secondly it only acts on the areas not containing any melanin, the red/yellow front, with the wildtype greens and blues unaffected. The Melanistic Moustached also acts this way with only the pink breast seemingly affected. The Melanistic Eastern Rosella has all its red parts turned black. These are both recessive I believe also. Melanistic certainly wouldn't explain the apparent low level of psittacin still extant in some Deep Blue IRNs.

I believe it was Deon who has images of very dark coloured Blue IRNs with very dark nails (and black beaks?). They are in SA I think he said.

Ron hopefully will join our conversation soon , and i am hoping he has already done that pairing.
It would be interesting to know all the offspring as we should also see Dark Blue & Deep Blue in the nest.

If allelic that is all he would see, 50% Deep Blues and 50% Dark Blues and they are easily identified in the nest. It is after they fledge that things get hard unless you catch them up. Any hetero allele bred to anything without either of those alleles present will see the young evenly split with each containing one of the alleles.

[Johan S]

Johan, I think that I can say with confidence that our Deep Blues in Oz are clean and not mixed with Emerald or 'Harlequin'. In the former I have posted a Deep EmeraldBlue pic which is a green bird and as for Dominant Pied, it is what it is and if it is there in any bird it is seen with a single gene present.

Willy, Ben and I were referring to imported birds from Oz into SA, not the deep blues in Oz.

[rod038]

Would a European Cobalt, a Violet Blue and a Violet European Cobalt be easy to identify in the nest and also once they leave the nest. What would be the things to look for when comparing each?

[Ring0Neck]

Molossus well said !!

Willy you said:

Ben I wonder what you folks are on about Deep being Melanistic. In my experience with Melanistic Rainbow lorikeets firstly it is recessive,...

Melanistic idea came about in this thread http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=15660
Recio had mentioned it and i (and others )am more then willing to explore, planning a Grey Emerald hen to a Deep Blue, if grey does mask Deep (as it is expected to do) then Emerald grey will still be ok for me, minimising the loss by 50% (grey Emerald masking deep birds) but it will rather put a surprise factor to the birds.
Here's a thread Recio talks about Melanistic http://pets.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ ... sage/22984

- I have to agree with you on the Melanistic mutations being mostly reccessive. I did not know much about Melanistic and did some searches to better inform myself and here's a good reference for other like me that want to better their knowledge.. a good definition here: http://melanistic.askdefine.com/

If one does everything by the book, in a logical, documented procedure, makes less mistakes but rarely does he break new frontiers, explorers are risk takers, i believe we need both type breeders around.
Here's a quote:

Melanism has been observed in a variety of animals including leopards, jaguars, squirrels, wolves, peppered moths. Melanism is often the result of a genetic mutation. In jaguars, melanism results from a dominant gene mutation while in leopards, melanism results from a recessive gene mutation.

If they were to eliminate the possibility of the Jag being a Dominant melanistic mutation they would have been wrong.

It seems to me that we find Melanistic mutation more often then dominant because "nature" only needs a small % of that specie to evolve as melanistic , more like a backup, in order for the specie's survival in the event of sudden changes to their environment.
Being recessive they can also revert back to their original wildtype.
Happy to be corrected where i make mistakes, we don't want to mis-inform other readers.

In short: We are very hopeful !

Ben

[Recio]

Hi,

For those non familial with the yahoo psittacin forum:
http://pets.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ ... sage/22982

Regards

Recio

[trabots]

Would a European Cobalt, a Violet Blue and a Violet European Cobalt be easy to identify in the nest and also once they leave the nest. What would be the things to look for when comparing each?

I have had a Cobalt Violet x Cobalt pair breeding for me for several seasons. They are rearing their second clutch which has 2 Cobalts, 1 Violet, 1 Cobalt Violet and 1 Mauve (poss. Violet). It is easy to identify them. The Cobalt Violet is darker than the Violet you just need to have them in the nest at the same time. Now if you had a single bird which you were trying to identify you may have problems. Using the known Cobalt Violet I compared it to 2 young from a Violet Mauve x Violet pairing and have confirmed both are DF Violet Cobalts as they were darker again. Out in the aviary unless you are looking at 2 birds side by side, same orientation to the sun etc you will have problems.

What I have been doing is prior to the moult I catch up and pluck the 2 main tail feathers from known birds and put them in the flutes on the end of a piece of cardboard. I am gradually growing this collection with multiple feathers for each mutation as they very within that mutation and arrange them from Blue, Deep Blue, Cobalt, DF Deep Blue, Violet Blue, Deep Violet Blue, Cobalt Violet, DF Violet Blue etc. and labelled. I can then hold up a bird and compare its tail feathers to those of known birds. This year I have realised that my collection of adult feathers is not as useful with young birds. I am convinced they darken to various degrees as they mature. I am now plucking the first primary tail feathers of the known young birds before they have their first moult. The most accurate way is to use DF birds for at least one of the pair which you then know 100% that all the young are at least SF of that mutation. It is more an elimination process than anything.

If some one in SA with these unknown Blue birds would like to give me their mailing address I would be happy to send over some labelled Deep Blue tail feathers to compare with your birds.

[Johan S]

If some one in SA with these unknown Blue birds would like to give me their mailing address I would be happy to send over some labelled Deep Blue tail feathers to compare with your birds.

Willy, I'll take you up on that offer.

[rod038]

Thanks for the reply Willy. Next year I will put my Cobalt Cock to a DF Violet Blue Hen.

[mallee_1]

Willy,
How would you distinguish difference between df violetblue & df violetcobalt. I would assume df violetcobalt would be darker bird?

Glenn

[trabots]

I have not had in the hand a DF Violet Blue and DF Violet Cobalt so can only speculate the latter will be slightly darker.

[madas]

Hi Willy,

can you please share a pic of the clutch "2 Cobalts, 1 Violet, 1 Cobalt Violet and 1 Mauve (poss. Violet)" and if possible a pic of the 2 DF Violet Cobalts?

thx in advance.

m.a.d.a.s

[trabots]

I would if I could. I am afraid unless this forum creates an easier way to attach images you will miss out on many. Photobucket continually freezes when I open in Google Chrome, a right PIA it is.

[trabots]

Why the heck isn't the label transferred? Cobalt, 3 Violets, Cobalt Violet

This is a different clutch but shows what you want.

[Ring0Neck]

Would have been nice if you had a Deep Blue thrown in there.

[trabots]

Would have been nice if you had a Deep Blue thrown in there.

Unfortunately all Deep Blues, Df Violets etc have fledged. If I could simply attach images as I think of them and as I am typing, my posts would be full of images. I do not wish to have all my images duplicated elsewhere. I do have an automatic shrink for web program so size is not the issue.

[prodigy]

Hi Willy,

I think it will be invaluably to get some proper reference pictures up, Ben has my email address and I am making offers on my and Ben's behalf to upload what ever you want posted.

regards,

Peter

[Johan S]

If some one in SA with these unknown Blue birds would like to give me their mailing address I would be happy to send over some labelled Deep Blue tail feathers to compare with your birds.

Hi everyone, I'd just like to point out that Willy is not one of those people that merely talks the talk. He did send me a feather (top), and this is a comparison with a cobalt feather (bottom) that I picked up this morning from one of my moulting SA cobalts. Apologies for the yellowish hue that is caused by the fluorescent tube lighting. That is actually a close to pure white background I used.



Let me tell you, I was very surprised by just how much lighter it is than our dark factor. I can not imagine why the feather studies did not show conclusive difference between these two feathers. I'm also confident in saying that I sincerely doubt that this feather/mutation will produce a mauve phenotype in DF, and will easily believe what has been reported about a deep blue DF phenotype. I can now go out in full force looking for a SF phenotype that will match my new reference deep tail feather.

Thanks again Willy!

[Johan S]

Here is another mystery hen. Thoughts?

[prodigy]

cobalt

[Ring0Neck]

I can only think of Azure, but the greyish color does not fit the bill from the little i know about azure.
If you take a pic of it's tail feather and deep feather it will give us a lot more clues.

[Johan S]

Ben, I have asked that the main tail feather be harvested and stored until I visit end of the month. I have actually not seen the bird in the flesh. Was purchased as a violet, but I doubt it.

[trabots]

Practice makes perfect

Mauve, DF Deep Blue


DF Deep Blue, DF Violet Blue


Cinnamon Deep Blue


Deep Blue, Cobalt

[Johan S]

Thanks Willy, those pics are a good reference. Will get really interesting when we start seeing combinations between SF violet SF deep and SF dark SF deep.

[trabots]

Johan, I guess is that "mystery hen" is on page 261 of Terry Martin's book, Slaty is the name.

[Johan S]

I'm hoping that I will get said book for my birthday from my family. It was the only item on my wish list.

[Ring0Neck]

Deep Blue (left) & Dark mature hens comparison - front view