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Gencalc results-not quite a match

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McmillanBirds
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Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:39 am

Hi all

I have had an unusual occurance happen.
With my 1 pair, a golden cherry cock(grey green cinn) and lutino hen I get the following results according to gencalc:

1.0 grey(sf) green cinnamon
x 0.1 ino
% from all 1.0
50.0% 1.0 grey(sf) green /cinnamon ino
50.0% 1.0 green /cinnamon ino
% from all 0.1
50.0% 0.1 grey(sf) green cinnamon
50.0% 0.1 green cinnamon

The problem lies in:

I get all of the above colours BUT
My aunt took a grey green cinn baby last year and it has developed a ring. A full blown males ring. And it dances and does all of the male birds things with the blue pallid baby they took at the same time(turned out to be a hen).

I researched golden cherry for the correct terminology so I could work things out on gencalc. All of them say grey green cinn. Am I missing something? Or is there something else going on in the cookie cart? Or maybe gencalc is just a guideline but not perfect in its results?

I have attached a pic of the male. When I got him at 1 1/2 years he was more a dirty yellow colour. He has darkened fractionally with every moult. He is about 4yrs now. I can attach pics of the hen tomorrow.

Thanks
Carmen

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rod038
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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by rod038 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:47 am

Do you know what the parents of your Lutino Hen are? She could be an Ino Cinnamon. I have never seen one and do not know if they apear lighter than a normal Lutino but I guess it is a possibilty because the only way to breed a Cock bird like you did from that pairing was if she did carry Cinnamon.

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madas
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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by madas » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:52 am

Hi your bird is definitly more then a cinnamon greygreen. I think it is carrying edged too.
I thouhgt golden cherry is an edged cinnamon greygreen.

greetings.

madas

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McmillanBirds
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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:57 am

The pic posted is of my breeding male, just so there is no confusion there.
rod038 wrote:Do you know what the parents of your Lutino Hen are? She could be an Ino Cinnamon. I have never seen one and do not know if they apear lighter than a normal Lutino but I guess it is a possibilty because the only way to breed a Cock bird like you did from that pairing was if she did carry Cinnamon.
if she were an ino cinnamon these would be the results

1.0 grey(sf) green cinnamon
x 0.1 ino cinnamon
% from all 1.0
50.0% 1.0 grey(sf) green cinnamon /ino
50.0% 1.0 green cinnamon /ino
% from all 0.1
50.0% 0.1 grey(sf) green cinnamon
50.0% 0.1 green cinnamon

So this can't be possible as I also get greens and grey greens out of them.
madas wrote:Hi your bird is definitly more then a cinnamon greygreen. I think it is carrying edged too.
I thouhgt golden cherry is an edged cinnamon greygreen.

greetings.

madas
check out this site
http://www.thomasriver.co.za/ringnecks/

He has a couple varietions on golden cherry's

:lol: my conundrum continues

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:54 am

Any chance of getting a picture of the baby that is causing the confusion? Pretty surprised that it would get a full neckring at one year of age. Maybe I'm misinterpreting.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:22 am

Believe me, I was just as shocked when my aunt told me that it had a neck ring too. I thought she was talking nonsense. I made her send me a pic but she just took of his head with her cell phone and in a very dark part of the verandah where they spend the day. Even the blue pallid is not showing her colours nicely.

blue pallid
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Grey green cinn
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He has the lighter feet colour and toenails that associate with cinnamon and the lighter flights(although flights were clipped the last time I saw them) and tail. I am thinking of going to visit to take decent pictures. Pity they stay a fair distance away from me though.

The 5 babies from this year. 2 green(gone to new homes)(darker toenails), 1 grey green(gone to new home) (darker toenails)(have just spoken to this lady so hopefully she will send me a picture soon), 1 grey green cinn, 1 green cinn. The last 2 will be going to their new homes soon. I can take pics of them this afternoon(flights feet etc).

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Lushen1600
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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Lushen1600 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:26 am

rod038 wrote:Do you know what the parents of your Lutino Hen are? She could be an Ino Cinnamon. I have never seen one and do not know if they apear lighter than a normal Lutino but I guess it is a possibilty because the only way to breed a Cock bird like you did from that pairing was if she did carry Cinnamon.
Hi Rod38 I have the very same question as you, as to what an ino cinnamon would look like, would the ino mask the cinnamon and make the bird look lutino, if not then what would the ino cinnamon look like? Has anyone bred such a bird and have pics to show what it looks like?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:25 am

Lushen1600 wrote:
rod038 wrote:Do you know what the parents of your Lutino Hen are? She could be an Ino Cinnamon. I have never seen one and do not know if they apear lighter than a normal Lutino but I guess it is a possibilty because the only way to breed a Cock bird like you did from that pairing was if she did carry Cinnamon.
Hi Rod38 I have the very same question as you, as to what an ino cinnamon would look like, would the ino mask the cinnamon and make the bird look lutino, if not then what would the ino cinnamon look like? Has anyone bred such a bird and have pics to show what it looks like?

Thanks
Lushen
I haven't seen one, but have heard that the ino-cinnamon looks very similar to green pallid. Personally, I would have expected a lutino look-alike with a slightly washed brown appearance, but only very slight. They are difficult to establish without a type 1 double split or a cinnamon-ino to begin with, as the cross-over rate is very low (3%).

Recio
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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Recio » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:14 pm

... and if you want to get a male Cinnamon SL-Ino it is even more difficult. I have asked in others forums if anybody has ever seen one or owns a pic. Nobody answered.

Recio

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:45 pm

Hi guys
Johan S wrote:
Lushen1600 wrote:
rod038 wrote:Do you know what the parents of your Lutino Hen are? She could be an Ino Cinnamon. I have never seen one and do not know if they apear lighter than a normal Lutino but I guess it is a possibilty because the only way to breed a Cock bird like you did from that pairing was if she did carry Cinnamon.
Hi Rod38 I have the very same question as you, as to what an ino cinnamon would look like, would the ino mask the cinnamon and make the bird look lutino, if not then what would the ino cinnamon look like? Has anyone bred such a bird and have pics to show what it looks like?

Thanks
Lushen
I haven't seen one, but have heard that the ino-cinnamon looks very similar to green pallid. Personally, I would have expected a lutino look-alike with a slightly washed brown appearance, but only very slight. They are difficult to establish without a type 1 double split or a cinnamon-ino to begin with, as the cross-over rate is very low (3%).
Recio wrote:... and if you want to get a male Cinnamon SL-Ino it is even more difficult. I have asked in others forums if anybody has ever seen one or owns a pic. Nobody answered.

Recio
I highly doubt that she is a cinnamon ino, she looks like a normal lutino. I went home to miserable weather so did not take a pic. I also thought I had one on my camera but it seems I have deleted it at some point. I do however have on my phone, but the quality is poor.
here goes though.

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Will take a decent pic if the weather holds off this afternoon.

Here are pics of 3 of the babies from this year.

1 of Pico- a normal green(although flights look slightly different, nails are darker)

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A couple of the cinn green baby that I still have

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A couple of the grey green cinn I still have. If i remember correctly my aunts one looked Identical to this one as a yougster. I could be mistaken though.

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Thanks
Carmen

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madas
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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by madas » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:31 am

And again the father and the last two green resp. greygreen look like they contain the edged mutation. A normal cinnamon greygreen doesn't have "yellow" in the main fligths. Please see Bastiaans book.

madas

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:39 am

ok, so the cock bird is a dom.edged grey green cinn. That still does not explain how a male baby has come out of this pair with the cinnamon factor.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by smick » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:09 am

I haven't seen a ino-cinnamon ringneck but have seen ino-cinnamon eastern rosella's and they do express both colours . they appear to first be just a lutino but when you compare the flights and tails you notice a lutino has white flights and tail whilst the ino-cinnamon has light cinnamon wash through the flights and tail.it was thought that ino would mask cinnamon but certainly not in eastern rosella's,perhaps someone has a indian from the correct pairin but didn't look closely at the flights and tail for the cinnamon wash.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:28 am

Found this pic on the net regarding the ino cinnamon

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... no_hen.htm

And of a cock that looks like my golden cherry

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... ygreen.htm

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Johan S » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:30 am

madas wrote:And again the father and the last two green resp. greygreen look like they contain the edged mutation. A normal cinnamon greygreen doesn't have "yellow" in the main fligths. Please see Bastiaans book.

madas
Madas, do you agree with the edged and cinnamon edged combinations and identification of birds as presented in the book?

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Lushen1600 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:01 pm

McmillanBirds wrote:Found this pic on the net regarding the ino cinnamon

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... no_hen.htm

And of a cock that looks like my golden cherry

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... ygreen.htm
Hi all the pic that Carmen has found online for a cinnamon-ino hen looks similar to a green pallid hen, so how would one distinguish between the two, what are the important things to look out for?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:07 pm

Hi all

This is the hen that my golden cherry is paired to

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I have contacted the breeder I got the cock bird from, she is going to go back in her records to find out what his parents were, as far as she remembers though the cock bird was green and the hen was a golden cherry. But that doesnt explain how my cock bird is a male either, even if the dad was split cinnamon.

Thanks
Carmen

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Johan S » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:02 am

Carmen, that hen has a shade of brown... Don't know if she is dirty, or if it is the light, but that is what I have imagined a lutino-cinnamon would look like. In your shoes, I would most definitely (without even a second thought!) pair that hen up with a green cinnamon cock in 2013. It shouldn't be hard to find a mature one. If you breed cinnamon cocks from that pair, you will be sure that the hen carries cinnamon as well. Then you are sitting with a magical combination in that hen.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:21 am

It has been miserable weather here. My driveway is like a river. She is in a ground aviary with sand at the bottom so very highly likely she is a bit dirty. All of my lutinos, albinos and lighter birds are looking a little dirty. I also went through 3 males before she finally accepted the golden cherry. I had her with a turquoise blue, then a grey green, a blue and then finally him(after threatening to sell her mentally if she didn't breed that year). When the weather clears up and she is clean will take another photo, at the moment all three of my lutino hens look the same colour wise.

Say theoretically she is an ino cinnamon, how would it explain getting out grey green and green babies though?

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Johan S » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:10 am

McmillanBirds wrote:A couple of the grey green cinn I still have. If i remember correctly my aunts one looked Identical to this one as a yougster. I could be mistaken though.
I think what Madas is trying to point out is that you may have misidentified some of these youngsters. It is hard to tell from the photos, but does the yellow and greygreen of the chicks appear more 'crisp' than that of the father (who has a 'washed out' brownish tint)? It seems that way from some photos, but photos are a poor reference at best to interpret colours. Also consider the barb of the feathers (flights and esp. two main tail feathers), is it a washed lighter brown like for the dad, or more crisp tending to black? You will be best able to tell. To me it seems as if they *could* be greygreen dom. edged / cinnamon. Then the hen is a normal ino, i.e.

1.0 grey(sf) green edge_dilution(sf) cinnamon x 0.1 ino
% from all 1.0
25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) green edge_dilution(sf) /cinnamon ino *
25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) green /cinnamon ino
25.0% 1.0 green edge_dilution(sf) /cinnamon ino
25.0% 1.0 green /cinnamon ino
% from all 0.1
25.0% 0.1 grey(sf) green cinnamon edge_dilution(sf) *
25.0% 0.1 grey(sf) green cinnamon
25.0% 0.1 green cinnamon edge_dilution(sf)
25.0% 0.1 green cinnamon

The two birds marked with * will look similar, but the hens would appear duller and have that cinnamon brown tint (and look like there dad). The colour of the cocks will be slightly 'crisper'/'sharper', and the feather barbs darker.

Let me know if you find flaws with this possible solution.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:30 am

Oh ok, I see what is meant now.

I know when I took a pic of the youngsters tail it was slightly damp(with poop sadly). I have 7 youngsters in a cage during the day in the process of trying to get them to eat by themselves, they still insist on hiding under the baby blanket I put in though, and there is poop everywhere!!!! :lol: I change the newspaper and blanket everyday but to no avail, they are little poop monkeys. If his tail is nice and dry when I get home will take a picture.

Thank you for the clarification. Will also see if I am able to visit my aunt on Sunday and take proper pics of her male.

Since I have found out my cock is an edged bird, it has made me look at my cinn blue hen. You can see a pic of her in viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15251 and in viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15422. Is that a normal cinn birds flights? Just out of curiosity.

Thanks so much
Carmen

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:45 am

What colur toenails would a normal edged grey green have? Sorry, it will help me to identify in the future if this is the case. When I researched it they should have black nails and this baby I have has a very light grey, and my aunts also has light grey toenails.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:47 pm

Hi everyone

I went home and had a look at the babies tail feathers and the centre ones are a light grey colour. His body colouring is like a dirty grey yellow(sorry, best way to describe it). The lady that took the grey green baby still has not sent me a picture. I have one when it was quite young though so you can see the green colour:

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This was the lighter one at about the same age(taken inside though with poorer lighting conditions)

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Photos do not do birds any justice though.

This is a newer pic of Pico. I think it was taken with a flash on though

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This was taken when all 5 of them were still together.

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Thanks
Carmen

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by madas » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:And again the father and the last two green resp. greygreen look like they contain the edged mutation. A normal cinnamon greygreen doesn't have "yellow" in the main fligths. Please see Bastiaans book.

madas
Madas, do you agree with the edged and cinnamon edged combinations and identification of birds as presented in the book?
Not for all. ;) For the males it could fit. But not for the females. I think there is not one edged female which isn't discribed as cinnamon. But for me most are normal
edged females. And nothing more.

madas

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by madas » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:22 pm

McmillanBirds wrote:Hi all

This is the hen that my golden cherry is paired to

Image

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I have contacted the breeder I got the cock bird from, she is going to go back in her records to find out what his parents were, as far as she remembers though the cock bird was green and the hen was a golden cherry. But that doesnt explain how my cock bird is a male either, even if the dad was split cinnamon.

Thanks
Carmen
Yeah the tail looks very unusual. Perhaps my eyes go mad but i can see a slight blue shine. Right???
So perhaps you really have a cinnamon ino crossover hen.

madas

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:12 am

madas wrote:
Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:And again the father and the last two green resp. greygreen look like they contain the edged mutation. A normal cinnamon greygreen doesn't have "yellow" in the main fligths. Please see Bastiaans book.

madas
Madas, do you agree with the edged and cinnamon edged combinations and identification of birds as presented in the book?
Not for all. ;) For the males it could fit. But not for the females. I think there is not one edged female which isn't discribed as cinnamon. But for me most are normal
edged females. And nothing more.

madas
Agreed!

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by McmillanBirds » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:58 am

The weather has been so up and down here that my birds still look a little dirty.
Here is buttercup again
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and this is Griffin, another lutino hen of mine
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They don't look any different to me, the only difference I can immediately see is buttercup is dirtier than griffin, but that is explained by the fact that buttercup is in a ground aviary and griffin is in a suspended.

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Re: Gencalc results-not quite a match

Post by asifsuun » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:49 am

Could you tell me more …

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