Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

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Ring0Neck
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Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

i have this bird (see picture below) a Turquoise Violet Pallid Hen which i acctually start to think that it can be an Indigo Violet Pallid.
This bird has lost most of it's original violet color it had in the first year, she lost most of the violet color as it can be seen in the picture barely noticeable now (i just want to point out that pics were taken on a cloudy day)
I'd like to hear other opinions if this bird is indigo or just pastel ? or something else ?


Image

In Flight:
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mallee_1
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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 »

Hi,

You have definately got a turquoise violet pallid, you can tell by the amount of colouring through the back and wings, the Indigo has the opposite effect, it reduces the yellow/cream colouring through the whole bird and leaves the violet colouring with mininmal amount of yellow/cream colouring only through the head & smallet patches in wings, it actually reduces the yellow colouring to a soft creamy colour.

The emerald violet pallid is different altogether than the turquoise & Indigo as it spreads the cream colouring through the whole body of the bird, not the most attractive looking bird and very hard to get photo as when you view with eye it looks more cream all over but in photos the violet shows up more than the violet.

I will try and get some photos of the indigo & emerald violet pallids shortly, both got young at the moment so they are in and out of boxes.

The pick of all of them in my eyes is the Indigo violet pallid, trying to get them in double factor violetblue, may be in with a chance this year, will have to wait a bit longer.

Regards Glenn
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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Thanks Glenn,

Some pictures would be great.
I am thinking of adding Indigo at a later stage to my breeding program.
Reason i was questioning this bird is the loss of the violet color, and if i remember correctly in this forum i read that indigo does do that.
I have seen tens of turquoise violet pallids but this bird you can barely tell it is a violet.
Pair had 3 young this year, should be breaking feather pins in the next 7 days or so
There will be no visible pallids only splits so i will see the true color in a few weeks.

Another pic of the bird in flight



Image
Johan S
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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote: Reason i was questioning this bird is the loss of the violet color, and if i remember correctly in this forum i read that indigo does do that.


I think it is going to happen the other way around; indigo will reduce the green/yellow and more violet will be visible, while turquoise will increase the green/yellow and less violet will be visible.

Ring0Neck wrote:I have seen tens of turquoise violet pallids but this bird you can barely tell it is a violet.


My first thought was that, because of the white flights and esp. the very light violet, that this might be turquoise violet dilute. I have seen one like that earlier this year, and the resemblance is striking. However, the feet colour is consistent with pallid, and we do get phenotypes without the grey in the flights. Of course, SL vs recessive and the eye colour would also play a role.
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Intresting...
are you refering to this bird?
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... quoise.htm



I think it is simply a DF Turquise. (still odd that violet dissapeared over 2 years ).
2 young chicks from this pair had broken feathers and both are violets possible turquise
if all young turn out to be turquise then that should prove it as DF turquise
1 more to break feathers in a day or two.

Another pic of my hen
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Could be Turquoise-ino ??
Inheritance: Combination of Turquoise and sex-linked recessive Ino; Turquoise is Dominant in Blue-series.
Would the violet still show through the wing/tail feathers? it shouldn't
Pic of Turquoise-Ino below:
Image


Don't Dilutes tend to have a slightly different colored head , not the same coloring as the rest of body?
Although.. the blue Turq Dilute and Turq Grey Dilute look a bit like my bird..
....http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... Dilute.htm
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Doubt it will be ino. Ino masks the violet much more successfully than dilute and you would have seen only the very faintest shade of violet, if any. Chances are good it is pallid if it lost it's colour like you said. Some breeders have mentioned to me that their birds in full sun (no trees or shade netting) tend to lose colour.
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

HI

Please post a good picture of the eye and the rump of the bird at the top of the tail.

Regards,

Peter
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter, how are these?

Just an update on her 3 chicks, all 3 are violets :shock:
Pics will be coming soon
the eldest one is showing turqouise
as i mentioned previously if all 3 turn out turqouise violet, i can assume that she is DF turqouise explaining the coloring
Is she a DF Violet? breeder i got the hen from is pretty sure only 1 parent was violet but we might need to check the records to be sure.



Image

http://parakeet.me/irn/flyz.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/flyz2.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/flyz1.jpg
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Again,

Nice pics, gonna go with Glen on this one.

I have a Mauve Violet Pallid cock and the bird is almost completely a almost dirty white other than on the rump as mentioned the has still kept a slight mauve violet tinge.

I would not say that its a turquoise as most of my turquoise pallid's look the same.

The odd DF turquoise Pallid we have breed is a very almost luminescent Yellow and very striking.

Can wait to see the pics of the babies.

Regards,

Peter
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter,

Do you have a picture of the Mauve Violet Pallid cock you can share with us?
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

[quote="Ring0Neck"]i have this bird (see picture below) a Turquoise Violet Pallid Hen which i acctually start to think that it can be an Indigo Violet Pallid.
This bird has lost most of it's original violet color it had in the first year, she lost most of the violet color as it can be seen in the picture barely noticeable now (i just want to point out that pics were taken on a cloudy day)
I'd like to hear other opinions if this bird is indigo or just pastel ? or something else ?

quote]

Hi everybody,

Very interesting discussion. Let me add some comments please.

There is an increase of psittacin expression (typical of patched parblue mutations like Turquoise or Indigo) coupled to a decrease in melanin expression (the violet colour has disappeared) with aging. The decrease in melanin expression is likely to be due to the pallid mutation ... but this is the first time I read something like that. My question: Has ever been described in pallids a decrease in melanin with aging?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: Reason i was questioning this bird is the loss of the violet color, and if i remember correctly in this forum i read that indigo does do that.


I think it is going to happen the other way around; indigo will reduce the green/yellow and more violet will be visible, while turquoise will increase the green/yellow and less violet will be visible.

Ring0Neck wrote:I have seen tens of turquoise violet pallids but this bird you can barely tell it is a violet.


My first thought was that, because of the white flights and esp. the very light violet, that this might be turquoise violet dilute. I have seen one like that earlier this year, and the resemblance is striking. However, the feet colour is consistent with pallid, and we do get phenotypes without the grey in the flights. Of course, SL vs recessive and the eye colour would also play a role.


Hi Johan,

The amount of visual violet is not related to either Turquoise or Indigo, which are mutations acting on psittacins (partial block of its synthesis). The amount of visual violet depends on the amount of melanin let by Pallid. From a phenotype point of view Turquoise or Indigo will "control" the amount of psittacin (yellow) we see, while Pallid will control the amount of melanin, and if the Violet mutation is present, the amount of visual violet.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

prodigy wrote:HI

Please post a good picture of the eye and the rump of the bird at the top of the tail.

Regards,

Peter
Hi Peter,

I agree. Violet is able to unmask any residual melanin, and the rump and end of the tail are the places where we have more possibilities of detecting any melanin let by pallid.

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Recio
Thanks for your input.


The reason the breeder sold this bird and the reason i wanted it, because out of about 20-30 Turquoise Violet Pallids he had this bird unlike the others has lost most of it's violet after 1 year or so .
It is worth mentioning that she had 3 Turquoise Violet chicks this year, or are they Indigo Violets?

Is there another modifier/mutation that reduces melanin in this bird?, as you mentioned we are not aware of pallid alone to reduce melanin with ageing.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Can you also have a look at this topic?
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=15694
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:Can you also have a look at this topic?
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=15694
Hi Ben,

In that topic it is written :
"2. Behaviour of heterozygocity vs homozygocity in partial mutants:
2.1. Recessive : Ex: pallid : heterozygous males appear as split pallid, homozygous birds appear as pallid, which is an incomplete mutation of SL-ino. Homozygous heteroallelic pallid-ino shows an intermedial phenotype confirming the character of partial mutation and co-dominance between both alleles. Another Ex : NSL-ino and clearhead fallow behaving exactly in the same way but in autosomal chromosomes (few reports about the combo).

I made a "typing error" and I should have written :
"2. Behaviour of heterozygocity vs homozygocity in partial mutants:
2.1. Recessive : Ex: pallid : heterozygous males appear as split pallid, homozygous birds appear as pallid, which is an incomplete mutation of SL-ino. Homozygous heteroallelic pallid-ino shows an intermedial phenotype confirming the character of partial mutation and co-dominance between both alleles. Another Ex : NSL-ino and bronze fallow behaving exactly in the same way but in autosomal chromosomes (few reports about the combo).

If the lutino birds you are getting from your clearhead fallow line are females it would mean that the cock is split SL-ino. If they were males both cock and hen must be split NSL-ino. Clearhead fallow (buttercup) is not an allele of the a locus ... but some reports point to a possible interaction of clearhead fallow and mutations of the a locus (pastel, bronze fallow and NSL-ino) concerning eye colour.

The other question: are they Indigo Violets or Turquoise Violets? Hard to answer. In my mind there are far more patched parblue alleles than Turquoise, Indigo or Saphire. I think that those are just morphotypes which have been "detected" according to the intensity of the yellow psittacin and the presence or not of read psittacin, but I am convinced that there are far more intermedial alleles. At present we could class par-patched morphotypes as follows, from higher to lower psittacin content:
Turquoise : red psittacin in heterozygous and homozygous birds.
Indigo : red psittacin only in homozygous birds (they look like a ligth heterozygous turquoise). The heterozygous birds ring is black and white.
Saphire : no red psittacin in either homozygous or heterozygous birds. The ring is black and white.
So, as you can see, you will be able to say that the bird is one or another morphotytpe only in adult males (to detect red psittacin presence), and only knowing if they are homozygous or heterozygous. If you keep in mind the possibility of combo between different alleles, and that probably there are more alleles than those corresponding to the described morphotypes ... the complexity increases rapidly. And if you add the possibility of a saturation threshold for the expressed patched psittacin, with some homozygous combo producing similar morphotypes ... it remains a big problem to know the genetics of any parblue bird without knowing the parents and the parents' parents phenotypes. This is the reason I think that we should describe/characterize patched mutations according to the heterozygous phenotypes, (or to both homozygous and heterozygous phenotypes), and not only according to homozygous phenotypes as it is made for most other mutations.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Thanks Recio
Most reading the above will think they are not reading English at times.
I have found this on the net and pasted it here to summerize homozygous and heterozygous phenotypes and what it means.
More and more readers can follow and have a better understanding, myself included.
Feel free to change anything that is not correct or add if missing.

"When the alleles are identical, the individual is homozygous for that trait. While if the pair is made of two different alleles, the individual is heterozygous. A homozygous pair of can be either dominant (AA, BB) or recessive (aa, bb). Heterozygous pairs are made up of one dominant and one recessive allele (Aa, Bb). In heterozygous individuals only one allele, the dominant, gains expression while the other allele, the recessive, is hidden but still present. Capital letters represent dominant genes and lower case letters, recessive genes. The word genotype is was created to identify genes of an individual and phenotype for the expression of the trait and genes. Phenotype and genotype are terms used to describe the difference between the visible expression of the trait vs. the actual gene makeup. An individual which expresses a dominant trait may carry a recessive allele, but the recessive expression is hidden by it's dominant partner."
Source Yahoo

Ben
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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:Hi Johan,

The amount of visual violet is not related to either Turquoise or Indigo, which are mutations acting on psittacins (partial block of its synthesis). The amount of visual violet depends on the amount of melanin let by Pallid. From a phenotype point of view Turquoise or Indigo will "control" the amount of psittacin (yellow) we see, while Pallid will control the amount of melanin, and if the Violet mutation is present, the amount of visual violet.

Regards

Recio
My friend, of course you are right. But could you perhaps consider the possibility that I wasn't talking about the amount of psitticans and melanin and control and all the other low level stuff, but merely about what we would actually see? :) Don't be too surprised, I tend to do that sometimes. :shock:

Take a picture of a violet heavy turquoise and a violet indigo. Now call a five year old over and ask which one is funny green and which one is purple. That is the point I was trying to make, albeit not very well. Other than that, you are spot on, they will both have exactly the same amount of melanin, as controlled by pallid, and will show the same violet colour when stripped completely of psittacins.

PS: welcome back, hope you will post more often. :D
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Clearhead fallow (buttercup) is not an allele of the a locus ... but some reports point to a possible interaction of clearhead fallow and mutations of the a locus (pastel, bronze fallow and NSL-ino) concerning eye colour.


Do you think it's worth testing this theory and prove it right or wrong once and for all?
Tempted to have a go at it.
in 2-3 years (shorter if i find a couple of CHF split nsl ino, or nsl inos split CHF) should have nsl ino chf.
I'm thinking that most breeders when they see ino they will break that pair and most likely remove the cock from breeding
therefore they'll never know if it is nsl ino, if it interacts with CHF.

On the other hand, if an nsl ino is bred out of chf's the chances of getting an nsl ino chf is high, as high as getting an nsl ino
makes me think that nsl ino chf should have been bred already by mistake just as nsl inos pop up

yet we have no reports of such bird being bred, which makes me think that nsl ino is masking CHF since all birds looked like nsl ino when in fact birds could have been nsl ino chf's but no way of telling.
it will also make it hard to identify the birds having same eye color, feet, nails, etc
as we can see in Clear Tails if an albino nsl Clear Tail is bred it will still look like a straight nsl ino
so birds used to test this should be green birds to clearly see if interaction appears same as in Carr's Clear Tails where you can see the Lutino NSL CT being a Clear Tail but no such luck in blue birds.

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Hi Ben,

I think it is always better to test theories/hypothesis than to keep in breeding birds with known outcomes and learning nothing. So I completely agree with you: let's try and see.

Anyway let me comment on this possible bird:

1. You say that probably a NSL-ino and clearhead fallow combo has already been obtained and it has not been detected because it was a yellow bird and has been classed as SL-ino or NSL-ino and put away of the breeding program.
If you look at the series of alleles of the a locus in lovebirds you can find, ordered from higher to lower melanin content:
Pastel > Bronze fallow > DEC (dark eye clear) > NSL-ino
For Bronze fallow and DEC it is not clear at all because Bronze fallow shows more melanin in the feathers and a red eye (less melanin in the retina) while DEC shows less melanin in the feathers and more melanin in the retina. Of course Pastel owns a dark eye and NSL-ino owns a red eye. I do not know if these alleles behave as codominants or not, but usually they are taken as codominants, so that allele combinations would show intermedial phenotypes. Let's say that DEC has not yet been described in IRN.
If clearhead fallow (buttercup) was an allele of the a locus, the combo Clearhead fallowNSL-ino would not be a yellow bird, but intermedial in phenotype, and for sure it would have been detected. If the produced combos are yellow birds not allowing for identification, it would mean that Clearhead fallow is not an allele of the a locus.

2. A combo of Pastel and Clearhead fallow has already been obtained in blue series IRN (private communication, not allowed to show pics).

3. Mutations acting on the a locus will alter melanin expresion but psittacin expression remains intact, so it is better to study these birds in the blue series to detect little changes among identical or different allelic homozygous combinations.

Kind regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

2. A combo of Pastel and Clearhead fallow has already been obtained in blue series IRN (private communication, not allowed to show pics).

3. Mutations acting on the a locus will alter melanin expresion but psittacin expression remains intact, so it is better to study these birds in the blue series to detect little changes among identical or different allelic homozygous combinations.
Recio,

Thanks that's great info.

Your point 2. i am assuming that when you say pastel, you don't mean Turquoise. Can you define pastel?

Point 3. i understand why you said that we should use blue series birds, however my point about green series is that we can clearly see the NSL lutINo Clear Tail as being CT, however when we look at the NSL albINO Clear Tail we can not idetify it as Clear Tail.
Carr's picture here : http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... artail.htm
So, if i breed an NSL albINO Cleahead Fallow, most likely will be pure white even if it interacts with CHF, however i should be able to visually see the slight diff. colored head in a NSL lutINO CHF.

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Back to topic suject
Parents : Turquoise? Violet Pallid X Blue, see pictures above.

A picture of the youngest violet possible violet Turquoise as the other 2 siblings that unfortunately were sold before i could take pics
This pair is not part of my main breeding program and i will not keep any young from them.


http://parakeet.me/irn/sleepyhead.jpg
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:Do you think it's worth testing this theory and prove it right or wrong once and for all?
Tempted to have a go at it.
Recio wrote:I think it is always better to test theories/hypothesis than to keep in breeding birds with known outcomes and learning nothing. So I completely agree with you: let's try and see.
As a general warning to all that have ever had thoughts like above: This is very dangerous grounds to tread on. I am all for experimentation, as long as it is done in a very responsible manner by people that know what they are doing. If you can not tell what the likely outcome is going to be, don't do it. Rather consult a more experienced person first.

Back on topic:

There has been, and still is, a trend to pair cleartail to almost all mutations, esp. in some European countries. Perhaps we should consider exploring the possibility to first determine whether a cleartail clearhead combination exists? (I mean a YHYT buttercup in old language, not a clear head clear tail which could be interpreted as only YHYT/WHWT/etc.). I have never really been interested in such a combination, but it would be an interesting starting point, as the cleartail and the clearhead mutations are better known than the a-locus.

@Ben

2) Pastel is an allele of the a-locus where the amount of eumelanin has been reduced to less than 50% of that of the wildtype. If you Google the Fischers lovebird (white eye ring group), you will find pictures and examples.
3) Glad you can 'clearly' see the difference. :) I wouldn't have been able to say that is a cleartail NSLino if that was the only bird in the aviary and I had no background on it. I would have gone for NSLino only. To me, it is not that clear. One will have a much better chance at identifying a cleartail NSLino, if there is also an NSLino / cleartail in the same nest. But, that's just me.
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan,

NSL ino is probably one of the less understood mutations out there, where assumptions are that it will do what an SL ino does, therefore ignored but a gem could be uncovered by travelling the road less travelled.
I'd rather expolore Bronze Fallow but can not get any as they are so rare.
I agree one should know what he's doing and have a good idea of outcomes and probable outcome, controlled enviroment excluded from main breeding program, Call it " LabViary.

I know breeders that set pairings to combine CT & CHF . Takes a few years and i didn't folow it up to see how they went.
i have thought about it too..


:lol: I did not have to indentify the NSL ino Cleartail as the breeder has done done for us. i'm merely pointing out that now that we have been told that the bird is NSL ino CLeartail we can see the Lutino head as being darker whereas Albino has zero marking to be able to say that it is an NSL Albino Cleartail.
I am assuming that parents were both ClearTails/nsl ino

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by smick »

Hi all,very interesting read :) . Glenn i wait with antisipation the photo's of Indigo Violet pallid as i'm am thinking off trying to breed this colour. At the moment i have a Indigo blue cock bird possible split pallid with a double factor violet blue hen,they are sitting on 4 eggs that i hope will hatch soon. If they produce a single factor indigo violet blue hen this year will try and get a violet blue pallid cock for a future pairing. If the Indigo blue cock i have is split pallid then i may produce hens this colour this season :D ,thanks Smick.
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:Back to topic suject
Parents : Turquoise? Violet Pallid X Blue, see pictures above.

A picture of the youngest violet possible violet Turquoise as the other 2 siblings that unfortunately were sold before i could take pics
This pair is not part of my main breeding program and i will not keep any young from them.


http://parakeet.me/irn/sleepyhead.jpg
Hi Ben,

So ... back to the topic.
The violet chick in the pic does not show any psittacin (at least on my screen). If it had shown any psittacin at feathering we could have said that it is a violet turquoise for sur. Let's think that the mother is an heterozygous parblue violet pallid. Since the father is blue the chick could be just Violet BlueBlue or could be a Violet ParblueBlue, with a parblue allele which will be expressed later (increasing expression of psittacins with aging in parblues). This parblue allele of course will be the same than the mother. If the chick is a male you will know at adulthood if he develops red psittacins in the ring or not, and you will be able to class chick and mother as a ligth turquoise morphotype or as an indigo morphotype.
For better understanding have a look at the topic "playing with parblues" being developped rigth now.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Considering that Clearhead Fallow's mutation is still weak, adding CT into the mix there's a good chance that the birds will be: weak, small in size, die young etc. The offspring could be too far from wildtype and not survive.
Putting 2 CHF colored birds to breed the offspring is evdently weak in comparisson with color to split.

it can be argued that other mutations have been combined with success, i just think that our Ozzi bloodline of CHF if weak, not sure about other countries.
Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Ben,

Its quite the opposite the CHF and CT offspring are strong normal birds and a very interesting combination.

As for NSLino in CT and CHF it is VERY difficult to tell the difference when the birds are younger unless you have breed the birds yourself.

The have noticed in young NSLino CT and CHF that the tail feathers shafts are "almost an ivory white", when the birds have go threw the second molt you can defiantly see that the heads and tails are brighter and darker than the rest of the body.

Regards,

Peter
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter


I agree CT are rather strong . But i can not agree on CHF.
If we look at their history since they were introduced in OZ and talk to serious CHF breeders will tell a diff. story.
I mainly breed CHF i talk based on facts, results I see and i can measure. I assume that you have CHF's as well?
I have 3 bloodlines mixed and i can still say that the birds are not up to scratch, smaller in size laggish to develop, etc..
I am not saying this to make you agree with me, rather what my experience is with CHFs.
I love CHFs and i continue to breed them.
CHF aka "Buttercups"
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

I am an explorer.

I already know the probable outcome by mixing NSL Ino X CHF and most likely it will be an extensive controlled experiment resulting in what we speculate the breeding results will be.
we ought to explore even the unlikely.
regardless of the result it will be called a proven result not a probable one.
I'm not saying that i will experiment, i don't have NSL Inos for starters.
Thanks for your input
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Ben, I agree with you that CHF is not the easiest bird to breed. They are not a fallow for nothing. However, from our experience they aren't all that hard to breed either. This could probably be that we have never put a fallow x fallow and always breed split x fallow. If you think CHF is hard, try breeding bronzefallow. They are by far the most difficult mutation we have dealt with.
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Ben,

I Have a few CHF as well as CT i wish i could post pictures, but after a year on this bored apparently i haven't posted enough to be allowed to post pictures yet.

Here in South Africa my CHF's are big strong birds, and I literary just chucked a pair in the cage and 3 chicks later, I have already cross bred the CHF's with a few mutations and achieved some very interesting results. As soon as i can post pics i will post them here (think i will just respond to every thread to push my ranking up heedfully then i can post pics).

We also have some very interesting Violet CHF that came in from Belgium a few years back that have bred some very extraordinary birds( will post pics as soon as i can)
Last edited by prodigy on Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Image
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Peter,

I was always under the assumption that you are in AU.
You being in SA it's an entirely matter altogether.
Here in AU, CHF's have a long way to go to be a strong bird.

Nice pic, if you have problems uploading pics you can email them to me and i can upload them on my site and you can always refer to them later through a link. I'm keen to see more of your birds you mentioned.


Johan, being difficult as a fallow yes, i don't mind that, although i was refering to the CHF gene being weak.

I have young being from CHF x CHF and were born same time with some other non CHFs and CHF's are much smaller size, slower to grow , develop, breaking feathers about 7 days later then normal IRN, and you can see the birds are lastargic.
This issue is most likely just here in Au because of too much inter-breeding, the pool of birds that was brought in was too small and i assume that breeders did not inject new bloodline rushing to breed colored birds.

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

prodigy wrote:Image
I know that bird... :D

Glad to see you have decided to stop being a 'roofkyker' and start posting. 11 post after being on the board for more than a year? Tsk tsk. Welcome. :)

Ben, we have mostly stopped breeding CHF. We have only three mature birds left carrying the gene. Limited aviary space is a real pain.
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

undercover like ;-)
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

lets try this Clear Headed Fallow again so we can actually see the bird

Image
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Young NSLino Clear Tail

Image
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Violet Turquoise CHF

Image
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter can you tell us more about the birds?
Is the first 1 a CHF ADM Pied? no pied markings on head or tail.

the NSL ino CT Does it have any CT distinguishable features in feathers? is this bird mature?
Tell us about the Belgian Violet.
do you have more pictures of the Violet Turquoise CHF ? from the back?

Very nice birds !


Ben
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Ben,

The first is The CHF "pied" is part of a breeding program that my father and a friend are busy with we 6 birds currently in the blue and green series.

Yes the NSL Ino CT is a young bird, still needs to do its second molt then they look a little more the part.

Well the strain of Violet when using a DF Bird to an American Violet something very odd happens, 3 different color birds are produced:

1) American Violet
2) DF Strange Violet
3) A combination of the 2 that is a very striking PURPLE bird

below is an example of one of the single factor birds

Image

Still the same gene at work here

Image


Regards,

Peter
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Peter,


Quiet sure your purple bird is a Deep Blue Violet

Pic of a Deep Blue Violet + deep blue chicks

Image

Ben
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Hi Ben,

Could you comment on the psittacin we can see on the Deep Blue bird?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Recio
Are you thinking Saphire?



Ben
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

It will look like I am Willy's reporter ... but it doesn't matter. Let's go:

Willy was also the first to identify the Deep mutation, which most probably is an estructural mutation, and at present work is being developped to know whether it is a new structural mutation or an allele of the established estructural mutations (Grey, Dark and Violet).
He has also detected that Deep birds show some let psittacin very often. We do not still know if every Deep bird show this psittacin, but it is very frequent, till the point that you can use it as a marker to quickly identify Deep birds in a big aviary.

My first idea was Ben's idea : thinking Saphire
My second idea : if this is a parblue allele which appears in most Deep birds we could speculate that Deep could be an allele of Dark. This could explain a linkage between Saphire (Blue allele) and Deep (Dark allele), their loci belonging to the same autosomal chromossome. If it was the case the expected crossing over rate would be 14%. It means that 86% (6 over 7 birds) of Deeps would dysplay this psittacin, and thus it would explain that it could be used as a "marker" of Deep birds in a big aviary full of combinations of Blue, Dark, Violet and Deep birds.
Another possibility is that this yellow psittacin belongs to the Deep mutation. I think that this is not the case because:
1. Nobody has ever described an estructural mutation acting on psittacins (we could speculate that this is always a possibility but, till now, it has not been proven).
2. I have seen some Deep birds without any psittacin ... but it was in pics, and not in the flesh.

So, if Australian breeders owing these Deep birds could make an estimation of the % of Deeps showing this psittacin we would be able to know which is the better hypothesis.

It would be amazing that the same breeder who does not "believe" in the existence of saphire could own this allele linked to one of his major contributions to the parrot's genetics.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 »

Hi All,

Trying this for first time, attaching photo of Indigo Violetblue Pallid, this was the photo I found on computer from some time ago, still to get photos of this bird and the emerald violetblue pallid as they are rearing young and I dont want to disturb them to much.

If this dosn't work then I will need some help to get on this forum.

Image

For those interested in the emerald violetblue pallid that I have paired up to the Violetcobalt poss sp pallid, they have 3 young, emerald, cobalt and what apprears to be emerald df violetblue, cock bird been plucking them so he in the holding cage now.

Will follow up with more photos later on if I can work it out.

Glenn
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Glenns picture:
Image

Glenn. to show your picture click on your picture then right click on it and "copy image location" paste that in and it works
(pics should end in say .jpg or other pic format), otherwise use URL which creates a link to that page, your first try was a link (URL).

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Ben,

Ok two pics of the Violet bird i was taking about, same bird in both pics just different lighting conditions.

what are your thoughts?

Image

Image

Regards,

Peter
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

I will get some pics to compare by the weekend.

See next page http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 0&start=50

Ben
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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