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Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

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Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:54 am

i have this bird (see picture below) a Turquoise Violet Pallid Hen which i acctually start to think that it can be an Indigo Violet Pallid.
This bird has lost most of it's original violet color it had in the first year, she lost most of the violet color as it can be seen in the picture barely noticeable now (i just want to point out that pics were taken on a cloudy day)
I'd like to hear other opinions if this bird is indigo or just pastel ? or something else ?


Image

In Flight:
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:38 pm

Hi,

You have definately got a turquoise violet pallid, you can tell by the amount of colouring through the back and wings, the Indigo has the opposite effect, it reduces the yellow/cream colouring through the whole bird and leaves the violet colouring with mininmal amount of yellow/cream colouring only through the head & smallet patches in wings, it actually reduces the yellow colouring to a soft creamy colour.

The emerald violet pallid is different altogether than the turquoise & Indigo as it spreads the cream colouring through the whole body of the bird, not the most attractive looking bird and very hard to get photo as when you view with eye it looks more cream all over but in photos the violet shows up more than the violet.

I will try and get some photos of the indigo & emerald violet pallids shortly, both got young at the moment so they are in and out of boxes.

The pick of all of them in my eyes is the Indigo violet pallid, trying to get them in double factor violetblue, may be in with a chance this year, will have to wait a bit longer.

Regards Glenn

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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:36 pm

Thanks Glenn,

Some pictures would be great.
I am thinking of adding Indigo at a later stage to my breeding program.
Reason i was questioning this bird is the loss of the violet color, and if i remember correctly in this forum i read that indigo does do that.
I have seen tens of turquoise violet pallids but this bird you can barely tell it is a violet.
Pair had 3 young this year, should be breaking feather pins in the next 7 days or so
There will be no visible pallids only splits so i will see the true color in a few weeks.

Another pic of the bird in flight



Image

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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:03 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Reason i was questioning this bird is the loss of the violet color, and if i remember correctly in this forum i read that indigo does do that.


I think it is going to happen the other way around; indigo will reduce the green/yellow and more violet will be visible, while turquoise will increase the green/yellow and less violet will be visible.

Ring0Neck wrote:I have seen tens of turquoise violet pallids but this bird you can barely tell it is a violet.


My first thought was that, because of the white flights and esp. the very light violet, that this might be turquoise violet dilute. I have seen one like that earlier this year, and the resemblance is striking. However, the feet colour is consistent with pallid, and we do get phenotypes without the grey in the flights. Of course, SL vs recessive and the eye colour would also play a role.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:48 pm

Intresting...
are you refering to this bird?
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... quoise.htm



I think it is simply a DF Turquise. (still odd that violet dissapeared over 2 years ).
2 young chicks from this pair had broken feathers and both are violets possible turquise
if all young turn out to be turquise then that should prove it as DF turquise
1 more to break feathers in a day or two.

Another pic of my hen
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:55 am

Could be Turquoise-ino ??
Inheritance: Combination of Turquoise and sex-linked recessive Ino; Turquoise is Dominant in Blue-series.
Would the violet still show through the wing/tail feathers? it shouldn't
Pic of Turquoise-Ino below:
Image


Don't Dilutes tend to have a slightly different colored head , not the same coloring as the rest of body?
Although.. the blue Turq Dilute and Turq Grey Dilute look a bit like my bird..
....http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... Dilute.htm

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:16 am

Doubt it will be ino. Ino masks the violet much more successfully than dilute and you would have seen only the very faintest shade of violet, if any. Chances are good it is pallid if it lost it's colour like you said. Some breeders have mentioned to me that their birds in full sun (no trees or shade netting) tend to lose colour.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:11 am

HI

Please post a good picture of the eye and the rump of the bird at the top of the tail.

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:08 am

Peter, how are these?

Just an update on her 3 chicks, all 3 are violets :shock:
Pics will be coming soon
the eldest one is showing turqouise
as i mentioned previously if all 3 turn out turqouise violet, i can assume that she is DF turqouise explaining the coloring
Is she a DF Violet? breeder i got the hen from is pretty sure only 1 parent was violet but we might need to check the records to be sure.



Image

http://parakeet.me/irn/flyz.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/flyz2.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/flyz1.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:17 am

Hi Again,

Nice pics, gonna go with Glen on this one.

I have a Mauve Violet Pallid cock and the bird is almost completely a almost dirty white other than on the rump as mentioned the has still kept a slight mauve violet tinge.

I would not say that its a turquoise as most of my turquoise pallid's look the same.

The odd DF turquoise Pallid we have breed is a very almost luminescent Yellow and very striking.

Can wait to see the pics of the babies.

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:31 pm

Peter,

Do you have a picture of the Mauve Violet Pallid cock you can share with us?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:54 am

[quote="Ring0Neck"]i have this bird (see picture below) a Turquoise Violet Pallid Hen which i acctually start to think that it can be an Indigo Violet Pallid.
This bird has lost most of it's original violet color it had in the first year, she lost most of the violet color as it can be seen in the picture barely noticeable now (i just want to point out that pics were taken on a cloudy day)
I'd like to hear other opinions if this bird is indigo or just pastel ? or something else ?

quote]

Hi everybody,

Very interesting discussion. Let me add some comments please.

There is an increase of psittacin expression (typical of patched parblue mutations like Turquoise or Indigo) coupled to a decrease in melanin expression (the violet colour has disappeared) with aging. The decrease in melanin expression is likely to be due to the pallid mutation ... but this is the first time I read something like that. My question: Has ever been described in pallids a decrease in melanin with aging?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: Reason i was questioning this bird is the loss of the violet color, and if i remember correctly in this forum i read that indigo does do that.


I think it is going to happen the other way around; indigo will reduce the green/yellow and more violet will be visible, while turquoise will increase the green/yellow and less violet will be visible.

Ring0Neck wrote:I have seen tens of turquoise violet pallids but this bird you can barely tell it is a violet.


My first thought was that, because of the white flights and esp. the very light violet, that this might be turquoise violet dilute. I have seen one like that earlier this year, and the resemblance is striking. However, the feet colour is consistent with pallid, and we do get phenotypes without the grey in the flights. Of course, SL vs recessive and the eye colour would also play a role.


Hi Johan,

The amount of visual violet is not related to either Turquoise or Indigo, which are mutations acting on psittacins (partial block of its synthesis). The amount of visual violet depends on the amount of melanin let by Pallid. From a phenotype point of view Turquoise or Indigo will "control" the amount of psittacin (yellow) we see, while Pallid will control the amount of melanin, and if the Violet mutation is present, the amount of visual violet.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:21 pm

prodigy wrote:HI

Please post a good picture of the eye and the rump of the bird at the top of the tail.

Regards,

Peter
Hi Peter,

I agree. Violet is able to unmask any residual melanin, and the rump and end of the tail are the places where we have more possibilities of detecting any melanin let by pallid.

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:09 pm

Hi Recio
Thanks for your input.


The reason the breeder sold this bird and the reason i wanted it, because out of about 20-30 Turquoise Violet Pallids he had this bird unlike the others has lost most of it's violet after 1 year or so .
It is worth mentioning that she had 3 Turquoise Violet chicks this year, or are they Indigo Violets?

Is there another modifier/mutation that reduces melanin in this bird?, as you mentioned we are not aware of pallid alone to reduce melanin with ageing.


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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Can you also have a look at this topic?
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15694

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:04 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Can you also have a look at this topic?
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15694
Hi Ben,

In that topic it is written :
"2. Behaviour of heterozygocity vs homozygocity in partial mutants:
2.1. Recessive : Ex: pallid : heterozygous males appear as split pallid, homozygous birds appear as pallid, which is an incomplete mutation of SL-ino. Homozygous heteroallelic pallid-ino shows an intermedial phenotype confirming the character of partial mutation and co-dominance between both alleles. Another Ex : NSL-ino and clearhead fallow behaving exactly in the same way but in autosomal chromosomes (few reports about the combo).

I made a "typing error" and I should have written :
"2. Behaviour of heterozygocity vs homozygocity in partial mutants:
2.1. Recessive : Ex: pallid : heterozygous males appear as split pallid, homozygous birds appear as pallid, which is an incomplete mutation of SL-ino. Homozygous heteroallelic pallid-ino shows an intermedial phenotype confirming the character of partial mutation and co-dominance between both alleles. Another Ex : NSL-ino and bronze fallow behaving exactly in the same way but in autosomal chromosomes (few reports about the combo).

If the lutino birds you are getting from your clearhead fallow line are females it would mean that the cock is split SL-ino. If they were males both cock and hen must be split NSL-ino. Clearhead fallow (buttercup) is not an allele of the a locus ... but some reports point to a possible interaction of clearhead fallow and mutations of the a locus (pastel, bronze fallow and NSL-ino) concerning eye colour.

The other question: are they Indigo Violets or Turquoise Violets? Hard to answer. In my mind there are far more patched parblue alleles than Turquoise, Indigo or Saphire. I think that those are just morphotypes which have been "detected" according to the intensity of the yellow psittacin and the presence or not of read psittacin, but I am convinced that there are far more intermedial alleles. At present we could class par-patched morphotypes as follows, from higher to lower psittacin content:
Turquoise : red psittacin in heterozygous and homozygous birds.
Indigo : red psittacin only in homozygous birds (they look like a ligth heterozygous turquoise). The heterozygous birds ring is black and white.
Saphire : no red psittacin in either homozygous or heterozygous birds. The ring is black and white.
So, as you can see, you will be able to say that the bird is one or another morphotytpe only in adult males (to detect red psittacin presence), and only knowing if they are homozygous or heterozygous. If you keep in mind the possibility of combo between different alleles, and that probably there are more alleles than those corresponding to the described morphotypes ... the complexity increases rapidly. And if you add the possibility of a saturation threshold for the expressed patched psittacin, with some homozygous combo producing similar morphotypes ... it remains a big problem to know the genetics of any parblue bird without knowing the parents and the parents' parents phenotypes. This is the reason I think that we should describe/characterize patched mutations according to the heterozygous phenotypes, (or to both homozygous and heterozygous phenotypes), and not only according to homozygous phenotypes as it is made for most other mutations.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:46 am

Thanks Recio
Most reading the above will think they are not reading English at times.
I have found this on the net and pasted it here to summerize homozygous and heterozygous phenotypes and what it means.
More and more readers can follow and have a better understanding, myself included.
Feel free to change anything that is not correct or add if missing.

"When the alleles are identical, the individual is homozygous for that trait. While if the pair is made of two different alleles, the individual is heterozygous. A homozygous pair of can be either dominant (AA, BB) or recessive (aa, bb). Heterozygous pairs are made up of one dominant and one recessive allele (Aa, Bb). In heterozygous individuals only one allele, the dominant, gains expression while the other allele, the recessive, is hidden but still present. Capital letters represent dominant genes and lower case letters, recessive genes. The word genotype is was created to identify genes of an individual and phenotype for the expression of the trait and genes. Phenotype and genotype are terms used to describe the difference between the visible expression of the trait vs. the actual gene makeup. An individual which expresses a dominant trait may carry a recessive allele, but the recessive expression is hidden by it's dominant partner."
Source Yahoo

Ben

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Re: Indigo Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:29 am

Recio wrote:Hi Johan,

The amount of visual violet is not related to either Turquoise or Indigo, which are mutations acting on psittacins (partial block of its synthesis). The amount of visual violet depends on the amount of melanin let by Pallid. From a phenotype point of view Turquoise or Indigo will "control" the amount of psittacin (yellow) we see, while Pallid will control the amount of melanin, and if the Violet mutation is present, the amount of visual violet.

Regards

Recio
My friend, of course you are right. But could you perhaps consider the possibility that I wasn't talking about the amount of psitticans and melanin and control and all the other low level stuff, but merely about what we would actually see? :) Don't be too surprised, I tend to do that sometimes. :shock:

Take a picture of a violet heavy turquoise and a violet indigo. Now call a five year old over and ask which one is funny green and which one is purple. That is the point I was trying to make, albeit not very well. Other than that, you are spot on, they will both have exactly the same amount of melanin, as controlled by pallid, and will show the same violet colour when stripped completely of psittacins.

PS: welcome back, hope you will post more often. :D

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:46 pm

Clearhead fallow (buttercup) is not an allele of the a locus ... but some reports point to a possible interaction of clearhead fallow and mutations of the a locus (pastel, bronze fallow and NSL-ino) concerning eye colour.


Do you think it's worth testing this theory and prove it right or wrong once and for all?
Tempted to have a go at it.
in 2-3 years (shorter if i find a couple of CHF split nsl ino, or nsl inos split CHF) should have nsl ino chf.
I'm thinking that most breeders when they see ino they will break that pair and most likely remove the cock from breeding
therefore they'll never know if it is nsl ino, if it interacts with CHF.

On the other hand, if an nsl ino is bred out of chf's the chances of getting an nsl ino chf is high, as high as getting an nsl ino
makes me think that nsl ino chf should have been bred already by mistake just as nsl inos pop up

yet we have no reports of such bird being bred, which makes me think that nsl ino is masking CHF since all birds looked like nsl ino when in fact birds could have been nsl ino chf's but no way of telling.
it will also make it hard to identify the birds having same eye color, feet, nails, etc
as we can see in Clear Tails if an albino nsl Clear Tail is bred it will still look like a straight nsl ino
so birds used to test this should be green birds to clearly see if interaction appears same as in Carr's Clear Tails where you can see the Lutino NSL CT being a Clear Tail but no such luck in blue birds.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:49 am

Hi Ben,

I think it is always better to test theories/hypothesis than to keep in breeding birds with known outcomes and learning nothing. So I completely agree with you: let's try and see.

Anyway let me comment on this possible bird:

1. You say that probably a NSL-ino and clearhead fallow combo has already been obtained and it has not been detected because it was a yellow bird and has been classed as SL-ino or NSL-ino and put away of the breeding program.
If you look at the series of alleles of the a locus in lovebirds you can find, ordered from higher to lower melanin content:
Pastel > Bronze fallow > DEC (dark eye clear) > NSL-ino
For Bronze fallow and DEC it is not clear at all because Bronze fallow shows more melanin in the feathers and a red eye (less melanin in the retina) while DEC shows less melanin in the feathers and more melanin in the retina. Of course Pastel owns a dark eye and NSL-ino owns a red eye. I do not know if these alleles behave as codominants or not, but usually they are taken as codominants, so that allele combinations would show intermedial phenotypes. Let's say that DEC has not yet been described in IRN.
If clearhead fallow (buttercup) was an allele of the a locus, the combo Clearhead fallowNSL-ino would not be a yellow bird, but intermedial in phenotype, and for sure it would have been detected. If the produced combos are yellow birds not allowing for identification, it would mean that Clearhead fallow is not an allele of the a locus.

2. A combo of Pastel and Clearhead fallow has already been obtained in blue series IRN (private communication, not allowed to show pics).

3. Mutations acting on the a locus will alter melanin expresion but psittacin expression remains intact, so it is better to study these birds in the blue series to detect little changes among identical or different allelic homozygous combinations.

Kind regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:07 am

2. A combo of Pastel and Clearhead fallow has already been obtained in blue series IRN (private communication, not allowed to show pics).

3. Mutations acting on the a locus will alter melanin expresion but psittacin expression remains intact, so it is better to study these birds in the blue series to detect little changes among identical or different allelic homozygous combinations.
Recio,

Thanks that's great info.

Your point 2. i am assuming that when you say pastel, you don't mean Turquoise. Can you define pastel?

Point 3. i understand why you said that we should use blue series birds, however my point about green series is that we can clearly see the NSL lutINo Clear Tail as being CT, however when we look at the NSL albINO Clear Tail we can not idetify it as Clear Tail.
Carr's picture here : http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... artail.htm
So, if i breed an NSL albINO Cleahead Fallow, most likely will be pure white even if it interacts with CHF, however i should be able to visually see the slight diff. colored head in a NSL lutINO CHF.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:34 am

Back to topic suject
Parents : Turquoise? Violet Pallid X Blue, see pictures above.

A picture of the youngest violet possible violet Turquoise as the other 2 siblings that unfortunately were sold before i could take pics
This pair is not part of my main breeding program and i will not keep any young from them.


http://parakeet.me/irn/sleepyhead.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:52 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Do you think it's worth testing this theory and prove it right or wrong once and for all?
Tempted to have a go at it.
Recio wrote:I think it is always better to test theories/hypothesis than to keep in breeding birds with known outcomes and learning nothing. So I completely agree with you: let's try and see.
As a general warning to all that have ever had thoughts like above: This is very dangerous grounds to tread on. I am all for experimentation, as long as it is done in a very responsible manner by people that know what they are doing. If you can not tell what the likely outcome is going to be, don't do it. Rather consult a more experienced person first.

Back on topic:

There has been, and still is, a trend to pair cleartail to almost all mutations, esp. in some European countries. Perhaps we should consider exploring the possibility to first determine whether a cleartail clearhead combination exists? (I mean a YHYT buttercup in old language, not a clear head clear tail which could be interpreted as only YHYT/WHWT/etc.). I have never really been interested in such a combination, but it would be an interesting starting point, as the cleartail and the clearhead mutations are better known than the a-locus.

@Ben

2) Pastel is an allele of the a-locus where the amount of eumelanin has been reduced to less than 50% of that of the wildtype. If you Google the Fischers lovebird (white eye ring group), you will find pictures and examples.
3) Glad you can 'clearly' see the difference. :) I wouldn't have been able to say that is a cleartail NSLino if that was the only bird in the aviary and I had no background on it. I would have gone for NSLino only. To me, it is not that clear. One will have a much better chance at identifying a cleartail NSLino, if there is also an NSLino / cleartail in the same nest. But, that's just me.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:25 am

Johan,

NSL ino is probably one of the less understood mutations out there, where assumptions are that it will do what an SL ino does, therefore ignored but a gem could be uncovered by travelling the road less travelled.
I'd rather expolore Bronze Fallow but can not get any as they are so rare.
I agree one should know what he's doing and have a good idea of outcomes and probable outcome, controlled enviroment excluded from main breeding program, Call it " LabViary.

I know breeders that set pairings to combine CT & CHF . Takes a few years and i didn't folow it up to see how they went.
i have thought about it too..


:lol: I did not have to indentify the NSL ino Cleartail as the breeder has done done for us. i'm merely pointing out that now that we have been told that the bird is NSL ino CLeartail we can see the Lutino head as being darker whereas Albino has zero marking to be able to say that it is an NSL Albino Cleartail.
I am assuming that parents were both ClearTails/nsl ino

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by smick » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:49 am

Hi all,very interesting read :) . Glenn i wait with antisipation the photo's of Indigo Violet pallid as i'm am thinking off trying to breed this colour. At the moment i have a Indigo blue cock bird possible split pallid with a double factor violet blue hen,they are sitting on 4 eggs that i hope will hatch soon. If they produce a single factor indigo violet blue hen this year will try and get a violet blue pallid cock for a future pairing. If the Indigo blue cock i have is split pallid then i may produce hens this colour this season :D ,thanks Smick.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:28 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Back to topic suject
Parents : Turquoise? Violet Pallid X Blue, see pictures above.

A picture of the youngest violet possible violet Turquoise as the other 2 siblings that unfortunately were sold before i could take pics
This pair is not part of my main breeding program and i will not keep any young from them.


http://parakeet.me/irn/sleepyhead.jpg
Hi Ben,

So ... back to the topic.
The violet chick in the pic does not show any psittacin (at least on my screen). If it had shown any psittacin at feathering we could have said that it is a violet turquoise for sur. Let's think that the mother is an heterozygous parblue violet pallid. Since the father is blue the chick could be just Violet BlueBlue or could be a Violet ParblueBlue, with a parblue allele which will be expressed later (increasing expression of psittacins with aging in parblues). This parblue allele of course will be the same than the mother. If the chick is a male you will know at adulthood if he develops red psittacins in the ring or not, and you will be able to class chick and mother as a ligth turquoise morphotype or as an indigo morphotype.
For better understanding have a look at the topic "playing with parblues" being developped rigth now.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:23 pm

Considering that Clearhead Fallow's mutation is still weak, adding CT into the mix there's a good chance that the birds will be: weak, small in size, die young etc. The offspring could be too far from wildtype and not survive.
Putting 2 CHF colored birds to breed the offspring is evdently weak in comparisson with color to split.

it can be argued that other mutations have been combined with success, i just think that our Ozzi bloodline of CHF if weak, not sure about other countries.
Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:32 pm

Hi Ben,

Its quite the opposite the CHF and CT offspring are strong normal birds and a very interesting combination.

As for NSLino in CT and CHF it is VERY difficult to tell the difference when the birds are younger unless you have breed the birds yourself.

The have noticed in young NSLino CT and CHF that the tail feathers shafts are "almost an ivory white", when the birds have go threw the second molt you can defiantly see that the heads and tails are brighter and darker than the rest of the body.

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:55 pm

Peter


I agree CT are rather strong . But i can not agree on CHF.
If we look at their history since they were introduced in OZ and talk to serious CHF breeders will tell a diff. story.
I mainly breed CHF i talk based on facts, results I see and i can measure. I assume that you have CHF's as well?
I have 3 bloodlines mixed and i can still say that the birds are not up to scratch, smaller in size laggish to develop, etc..
I am not saying this to make you agree with me, rather what my experience is with CHFs.
I love CHFs and i continue to breed them.
CHF aka "Buttercups"

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:09 pm

I am an explorer.

I already know the probable outcome by mixing NSL Ino X CHF and most likely it will be an extensive controlled experiment resulting in what we speculate the breeding results will be.
we ought to explore even the unlikely.
regardless of the result it will be called a proven result not a probable one.
I'm not saying that i will experiment, i don't have NSL Inos for starters.
Thanks for your input

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:38 pm

Ben, I agree with you that CHF is not the easiest bird to breed. They are not a fallow for nothing. However, from our experience they aren't all that hard to breed either. This could probably be that we have never put a fallow x fallow and always breed split x fallow. If you think CHF is hard, try breeding bronzefallow. They are by far the most difficult mutation we have dealt with.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:44 pm

Hi Ben,

I Have a few CHF as well as CT i wish i could post pictures, but after a year on this bored apparently i haven't posted enough to be allowed to post pictures yet.

Here in South Africa my CHF's are big strong birds, and I literary just chucked a pair in the cage and 3 chicks later, I have already cross bred the CHF's with a few mutations and achieved some very interesting results. As soon as i can post pics i will post them here (think i will just respond to every thread to push my ranking up heedfully then i can post pics).

We also have some very interesting Violet CHF that came in from Belgium a few years back that have bred some very extraordinary birds( will post pics as soon as i can)
Last edited by prodigy on Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:45 pm

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:11 am

Hi Peter,

I was always under the assumption that you are in AU.
You being in SA it's an entirely matter altogether.
Here in AU, CHF's have a long way to go to be a strong bird.

Nice pic, if you have problems uploading pics you can email them to me and i can upload them on my site and you can always refer to them later through a link. I'm keen to see more of your birds you mentioned.


Johan, being difficult as a fallow yes, i don't mind that, although i was refering to the CHF gene being weak.

I have young being from CHF x CHF and were born same time with some other non CHFs and CHF's are much smaller size, slower to grow , develop, breaking feathers about 7 days later then normal IRN, and you can see the birds are lastargic.
This issue is most likely just here in Au because of too much inter-breeding, the pool of birds that was brought in was too small and i assume that breeders did not inject new bloodline rushing to breed colored birds.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:32 am

prodigy wrote:Image
I know that bird... :D

Glad to see you have decided to stop being a 'roofkyker' and start posting. 11 post after being on the board for more than a year? Tsk tsk. Welcome. :)

Ben, we have mostly stopped breeding CHF. We have only three mature birds left carrying the gene. Limited aviary space is a real pain.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am

undercover like ;-)

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:46 am

lets try this Clear Headed Fallow again so we can actually see the bird

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:57 am

Young NSLino Clear Tail

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:59 am

Violet Turquoise CHF

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:24 am

Peter can you tell us more about the birds?
Is the first 1 a CHF ADM Pied? no pied markings on head or tail.

the NSL ino CT Does it have any CT distinguishable features in feathers? is this bird mature?
Tell us about the Belgian Violet.
do you have more pictures of the Violet Turquoise CHF ? from the back?

Very nice birds !


Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:19 am

Hi Ben,

The first is The CHF "pied" is part of a breeding program that my father and a friend are busy with we 6 birds currently in the blue and green series.

Yes the NSL Ino CT is a young bird, still needs to do its second molt then they look a little more the part.

Well the strain of Violet when using a DF Bird to an American Violet something very odd happens, 3 different color birds are produced:

1) American Violet
2) DF Strange Violet
3) A combination of the 2 that is a very striking PURPLE bird

below is an example of one of the single factor birds

Image

Still the same gene at work here

Image


Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:04 am

Hi Peter,


Quiet sure your purple bird is a Deep Blue Violet

Pic of a Deep Blue Violet + deep blue chicks

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:26 am

Hi Ben,

Could you comment on the psittacin we can see on the Deep Blue bird?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:37 am

Hi Recio
Are you thinking Saphire?



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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:36 pm

Hi everybody,

It will look like I am Willy's reporter ... but it doesn't matter. Let's go:

Willy was also the first to identify the Deep mutation, which most probably is an estructural mutation, and at present work is being developped to know whether it is a new structural mutation or an allele of the established estructural mutations (Grey, Dark and Violet).
He has also detected that Deep birds show some let psittacin very often. We do not still know if every Deep bird show this psittacin, but it is very frequent, till the point that you can use it as a marker to quickly identify Deep birds in a big aviary.

My first idea was Ben's idea : thinking Saphire
My second idea : if this is a parblue allele which appears in most Deep birds we could speculate that Deep could be an allele of Dark. This could explain a linkage between Saphire (Blue allele) and Deep (Dark allele), their loci belonging to the same autosomal chromossome. If it was the case the expected crossing over rate would be 14%. It means that 86% (6 over 7 birds) of Deeps would dysplay this psittacin, and thus it would explain that it could be used as a "marker" of Deep birds in a big aviary full of combinations of Blue, Dark, Violet and Deep birds.
Another possibility is that this yellow psittacin belongs to the Deep mutation. I think that this is not the case because:
1. Nobody has ever described an estructural mutation acting on psittacins (we could speculate that this is always a possibility but, till now, it has not been proven).
2. I have seen some Deep birds without any psittacin ... but it was in pics, and not in the flesh.

So, if Australian breeders owing these Deep birds could make an estimation of the % of Deeps showing this psittacin we would be able to know which is the better hypothesis.

It would be amazing that the same breeder who does not "believe" in the existence of saphire could own this allele linked to one of his major contributions to the parrot's genetics.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Hi All,

Trying this for first time, attaching photo of Indigo Violetblue Pallid, this was the photo I found on computer from some time ago, still to get photos of this bird and the emerald violetblue pallid as they are rearing young and I dont want to disturb them to much.

If this dosn't work then I will need some help to get on this forum.

Image

For those interested in the emerald violetblue pallid that I have paired up to the Violetcobalt poss sp pallid, they have 3 young, emerald, cobalt and what apprears to be emerald df violetblue, cock bird been plucking them so he in the holding cage now.

Will follow up with more photos later on if I can work it out.

Glenn

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:38 pm

Glenns picture:
Image

Glenn. to show your picture click on your picture then right click on it and "copy image location" paste that in and it works
(pics should end in say .jpg or other pic format), otherwise use URL which creates a link to that page, your first try was a link (URL).

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:22 am

Hi Ben,

Ok two pics of the Violet bird i was taking about, same bird in both pics just different lighting conditions.

what are your thoughts?

Image

Image

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:38 pm

I will get some pics to compare by the weekend.

See next page viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15660&start=50

Ben
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:01 pm

What i'm I ?

This young ringneck is out of a Blue X Violet pair
in the nest there was a very dark violet also (see pic with a few chicks in the bucket)
these are birds of a local breeder and was kind enough to let me take pics of these gorgeous birds.

i honestly don't know what to call this bird !

I know at least another breeder has a bird like this in the nest this year, but what is it?

Note the nails, they are very dark black



http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico3.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico4.jpg

These ringnecks are not from the same parents, they are mixed.
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico2a.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:10 am

Ben, at first glance to me it seems as if the chick a SF violet blue (what I call strain 2). The colour is still very blue, but I have notice from some of the pictures of ours that they tend to become more violet as the feathers grow. Have a look again in two weeks. One photo does suggest some violet feathers developing on the rump.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:15 am

Ben, at first glance to me it seems as if the chick a SF violet blue (what I call strain 2).
Hi Johan,
How would you pair up this bird in order to keep breeding strain 2, would it work in similar fashon as Dark Factor? T1 & T2?
Paired to a Blue would the violet strain 1 be showing in offspring or just strain 2?
Could it be translated into s-thing along these lines:? Strain 1 violet has both alleles violet but strain 2 is a mixture of say one blue allele and one violet?
not sure if terminology is acurate.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:15 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
Ben, at first glance to me it seems as if the chick a SF violet blue (what I call strain 2).
Hi Johan,
How would you pair up this bird in order to keep breeding strain 2, would it work in similar fashon as Dark Factor? T1 & T2?
Paired to a Blue would the violet strain 1 be showing in offspring or just strain 2?
Could it be translated into s-thing along these lines:? Strain 1 violet has both alleles violet but strain 2 is a mixture of say one blue allele and one violet?
not sure if terminology is acurate.

Ben
Hi Ben,

in short, no. It doesn't seem as if I'm communicating my thoughts regarding strain 1 and 2 effectively. It has nothing to do with T1 or T2. It is simply two varieties that can give DF birds with a violet appearance. Think of it as a light violet mutation, and a dark violet mutation. The major difference is in the SF, with the light violet looking very much like a cobalt (the pictures you posted), and a dark violet in SF already looking violet. In the other posts I have shown you examples with pictures. Time for some revision. :)

Therefore, if you pair a blue x violet (1) you get blue and violet (1). If you pair blue x violet (2), you get blue and violet (2) offspring. Violet (1) x violet (1) will give you blue, SF violet (1) and DF violet (1). Violet (2) x violet (2) will give you blue, SF violet (2) and DF violet (2). We are currently testing SF violet (1) x SF violet (2) to see what happens, but from what I've heard the phenotype is remarkable.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:57 am

Johan,

You are explaining just fine.
It is clear and strightforward explanation. Cheers!
I'll try to aquire this bird, if the breeder wants to part with it.
Ben

What do you think of these 2 violets from same nest? sf & df? violets?

http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets3.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:10 am

I have aquired this bird
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg

Johan made me curious and i want to experiment with the 2 strains of violets.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:15 am

Ring0Neck wrote:What do you think of these 2 violets from same nest? sf & df? violets?

http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets3.jpg
Yip, I'd go with violet in SF and DF of the lighter violet variety.

Use http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets1.jpg and compare the SF with this SF violet hen. This hopefully shows why I distinguish between the two varieties of violet.
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:46 pm

Johan S wrote: Hi Ben,

in short, no. It doesn't seem as if I'm communicating my thoughts regarding strain 1 and 2 effectively. It has nothing to do with T1 or T2. It is simply two varieties that can give DF birds with a violet appearance. Think of it as a light violet mutation, and a dark violet mutation. The major difference is in the SF, with the light violet looking very much like a cobalt (the pictures you posted), and a dark violet in SF already looking violet. In the other posts I have shown you examples with pictures. Time for some revision. :)

Therefore, if you pair a blue x violet (1) you get blue and violet (1). If you pair blue x violet (2), you get blue and violet (2) offspring. Violet (1) x violet (1) will give you blue, SF violet (1) and DF violet (1). Violet (2) x violet (2) will give you blue, SF violet (2) and DF violet (2). We are currently testing SF violet (1) x SF violet (2) to see what happens, but from what I've heard the phenotype is remarkable.
Hi Johan,

I guess you are giving names to a well known feature with violet strains : there are some birds in which we can make the difference between SF and DF birds because they behave as incomplete dominant (strain 1) and there are others in which both SF and DF birds are identical, behaving as dominants (strain 2). That's great and I agree with you : we should name them to know what we are speaking about. We were supossing that both strains were different alleles of the same gene but, after reading your post, I have a problem with this idea : ... you have heard , that "the phenotype (of the combo) is remarkable" .... In this case I would think that both mutations are not the same. This is the only way to explain that the combo strain1strain2 is different than any of the homozygous DF for any of the strains: if the phenotype of the DF strain1 is like the phenotype of DF strain 2 ... why the combo of both strains would be different ??? This fact and the different inheritance pattern point to two different mutations.... which will be confirmed or not with your next generation birds.

I am really expecting your results.

This reminds me the history of the european cobalt and the australian cobalt ... which finally were shown to be different mutations (Dark and Deep) even if we do not yet know if they are alleles of the same locus or not.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:44 pm

Intresting that Aus. breeders say same thing as Johan "the phenotype (of the combo) is remarkable"
the difference is the birds they are refering to : Deep B X Violet.

I think we have to be very open minded with this subject.
Since the Deep Blue introduction and more so, adding it to violet, having violet deep blues breeders are having trouble identifying birds and perhaps labelling the offspring wrong or incomplete.
Deep, Cobalt, Violet are Incomlete Dominant, breeding results are the same which is not helping.
Add DF violets or Deep blues and things will only be more hectic.
No longer will we be able to easily identify visually not even genetically.

It is likely that we have what Johan calls violets of at least 2 strains. however..
If one breeder decides that a bird is deep blue instead of violet strain or vice versa, no one can say otherwise because unlike the European cobalts where DF is a clear Mauve and therefore all doubts removed, both these birds phenotype behave exactly the same in SF & DF.

* Why do we have some DF violets that can be identified visually but others will be exactly the same phenotype as SF?
Silly Question to open more possibilites: what if all violets genepool that visually can be identified as darker "activates" a dark allele? somehow?or something else?

Why i think is important to set in stone the following combination: deeb blue x cobalt = ?mauve
is simply to identify weather they are different alleles of the same gene & if they are, giving us a phenotype mauve then we can test breed any bird and label it correctly and confirm that deep blue is a dark factor and not related to violet.


I am sure that many breeders here have Deep Blues, more so Violet Deep Blues and they are not aware of it, they simply call it a darker shade violet. Pairing a DB or Cobolt X Violet the offpsring violet looking although it is in fact violet cobolt it can be passed on as simply a violet. No wonder the next breeder is scratching his head why he has 3-4 different blue based birds in the nest.

The really black nails from Johan's pics and my bird i acquired, the black nails are a marker. What is it telling us?

I ask. If i have a deep blue and i label it a violet strain, or vice versa, can anyone prove me wrong?

Example of easily mis-identifying birds:
Bird in example: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg ( we talked about it in this thread just above)
let's call this bird Trico
Trico's parents were Blue cock X Cobalt Violet hen which at the begining breeder thought it was just a violet hen
I have been told and have seen the parents of the mother hen were Violet Cobolt X Violet
Initial conclusion before the above were identified was that this young bird is ought to be a Violet strain 2 which i was happy to accept until more info came to light that in fact there is Cobolt in the genetic makeup of the hen, hence this bird is carrying/being a cobalt at least.

I am not trying to stir anything up, but rather.. question everything even if it is certain., as certainty is only certain till proven otherwise.



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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:11 am

Hi Recio, Ben and others,

I'll respond to the SF/DF violet strains when I have the pictures to back them up. At this stage, however, we have not personally bred SF/DF birds in the same clutch in previous seasons from the dark violet strain, but hopefully that isn't the case this year. Unfortunately, the current pictures are of chicks that have shortish feathers and I'd like them to grow out some more. I (personally) haven't confirmed whether the inheritance for the dark strain is complete or incomplete dominant, but I'm getting a bit tired of having to rely on the varied/different reports of others. From pictures I have seen, it appears as if both the light and dark strains are actually incomplete, although much more apparent for the light violet strain. Because of the inconsistencies in the reports, we have decided to produce DF birds of all our mutations. So I will hopefully be able to report back soon on what we have bred and experienced. If it backs up what others have been saying, good! If not, then so be it.
Ring0Neck wrote:If one breeder decides that a bird is deep blue instead of violet strain or vice versa, no one can say otherwise because unlike the European cobalts where DF is a clear Mauve and therefore all doubts removed, both these birds phenotype behave exactly the same in SF & DF.
Willy has made the point that the DF deep is a dark blue bird. Both strains of violet show a DF violet in a violet/purple colour. One can distinguish between them as they are distinctly different (deep dark blue vs purple). Recio, can you confirm whether this is actually true or not, as you have direct contact with Willy Stobbart and he has not been reporting publicly in a long time. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he would join this forum and share his knowledge with us first hand? Maybe you can persuade him. The atmosphere here isn't as aggressive as in some others places. Perhaps you can get permission to upload a DF deep to show the colour.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:43 am

Hi Johan, Ben and everybody,

I agree with you that the atmosphere in this forum is quite calm and allows for discussion putting "self proudness" away. I have already redirected Willy to some discussions in this forum but it only depends on him to participate or not.

Coming back to the present discussion:
The question: how could we explain that a combo of strain1strain2 violet mutation could be "different" than a DF strain1 or a DF strain2? It would be great to define what we are meaning by "different". Anyway there would be at least 2 possibilities:

1. Violet strain1 and violet strain 2 could act differently at the structural level (different mutations) so that a SF combo of both mutations could be "different". If both strains were slightly different alleles of the same mutation the combo strain1strain2 would dysplay an intermedial phenotype ... but it seems that this is not the case. Anyway I agree with Johan : it is hard to speak about birds that we do not bread and that we only know indirectly through others' reports.

2. As Ben reports it could also happen that there is only one violet mutation and that what we call strain2 (the darkest violet) is in fact Deep SF Violet bird. In this case when pairing this bird (Blue SF Deep SF Violet) to a normal blue we could get in the same nest Blue, Deep Blue, Violet Blue and Deep Violet Blue. If we are able to identify these phenotypes in the same nest of a strain2 violet .... I would bet that Ben explanation is the best. But if we only can detect Blues and strain2Violets ... it would mean that Deep is not in the mix and we should consider the existence of 2 different Violet mutations.

@Johan : could you tell us your present pairs with both Violet types to try to better understand outcomes?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:07 am

Recio wrote:could you tell us your present pairs with both Violet types to try to better understand outcomes?
Here are the pairs and what we are trying to determine from the experiments related to the structural mutations for this season. Just to recap on terminology, violet1 will be the darker strain, and violet2 the lighter strain. Then we have pairs in:

violet1 x violet2 (initially started to test if the hen is actually a violet or cobalt, but we have tracked down the origins and confirmed violet2. Now we'll investigate the combination)
violet1 x violet1 (breed reference SF and DF violet1)
violet1 x violet1 cobalt (compare cobalt violet1 to DF violet1 from same nest or different nest above)
cobalt x cobalt ?violet2? (not sure what the hen is, but have confirmed non-allelic relationship to dark by two different mauve-like phenotypes, i.e. mauve and mauve ?violet2?)

Unfortunately, no DF violet2 candidates possible this season. :(

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:27 am

Johan S wrote: Here are the pairs and what we are trying to determine from the experiments related to the structural mutations for this season. Just to recap on terminology, violet1 will be the darker strain, and violet2 the lighter strain. Then we have pairs in:

violet1 x violet2 (initially started to test if the hen is actually a violet or cobalt, but we have tracked down the origins and confirmed violet2. Now we'll investigate the combination) :(
OK Johan,

So the question after correcting for terminology is : is violet1 a single different mutation than violet2, or is violet1 (the darkest) a mix of Violet and Deep?

In the pairing above I guess that the male is violet1 and the female is violet2. In this is the case the question of the origins is more important for the male (violet1, the darkest) than for the female. Could you track down its origins as you did for the female?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:47 am

Hi All,

We should team! up a few breeders and do co-joint tests. It can save us years....
Depending on what birds we have or can acquire for the tests.

Anyone can join, since we all decide what birds/outcomes should be for these experimental pairs

The bird i acquired i am pretty sure it's cobalt not Strain 2 as i was hoping but i'll keep looking.
what i suggest Johan or anyone that has or can get an SF ( or DF to be sure)of stain 2 bird to put it to a green wildtype
We know it's quiet easy to identify a green violet to a dark green bird
doing this will prove (best evidence) if indeed strain 2 is of violet not dark

BTW, i have never seen / heard of deep green bird.
i am more then happy to strip a deep blue to green to see the phenotype so we can compare to the green out of the strain 2 Joahn has.


What are your thoughts?
Ben


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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:21 am

Recio wrote:
Johan S wrote: Here are the pairs and what we are trying to determine from the experiments related to the structural mutations for this season. Just to recap on terminology, violet1 will be the darker strain, and violet2 the lighter strain. Then we have pairs in:

violet1 x violet2 (initially started to test if the hen is actually a violet or cobalt, but we have tracked down the origins and confirmed violet2. Now we'll investigate the combination) :(
OK Johan,

So the question after correcting for terminology is : is violet1 a single different mutation than violet2, or is violet1 (the darkest) a mix of Violet and Deep?

In the pairing above I guess that the male is violet1 and the female is violet2. In this is the case the question of the origins is more important for the male (violet1, the darkest) than for the female. Could you track down its origins as you did for the female?

Regards

Recio
I haven't checked, but will follow up with the breeder. He is a mutual friend (DS), so it shouldn't be hard. Pretty sure it is violet1, though.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:56 am



In this thread it is referred to what is most likely the Violet 2
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gene ... sage/13673
I know the breeder (Peter Russell) and i can ask if he still has any violets of strain 2 (light)
He was one of the first 5 breeders with Violets in Australia, so i can be sure that the violet2 bloodline was not mixed with Dark.
I would still like to test breed this bird to a green bird.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:21 am

Hi Molossus,

I'm up for it.

Your Azure, how does it show under UV light?

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:51 am

Hi Molossus,

I'd say it would be invaluable to see a picture of the blue 'azure' in the same aviary with a reference normal blue and hopefully some other structural mutations (dark would be a fabulous start). In terms of breeding programs, I'd go with trying to establish DF 'azure' in blue and green as a first step.

I know for a fact that you own a UV light, so I share Ben's curiosity on the result.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:38 am

Johan S wrote:Hi Molossus,

I'd say it would be invaluable to see a picture of the blue 'azure' in the same aviary with a reference normal blue and hopefully some other structural mutations (dark would be a fabulous start). In terms of breeding programs, I'd go with trying to establish DF 'azure' in blue and green as a first step.

I know for a fact that you own a UV light, so I share Ben's curiosity on the result.
.... and please : it would be great if you could add your uv observations on your Alex.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:05 pm

SA "Deep Blue" vs Oz Deep Blue (Oz birds on top)

Image

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Picture from Willy S.
left to right: Deep Blue (Oz Cobalt) - Blue (lower) Dark Blue (Cobalt EU)

Trusted source, you can use it for reference when compairing


Image


Deep & Dark Blues
Image

Deep Turquoise Blue
Image

DF Deep Blue
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:25 pm

Recio / Ben, do you know if Willy has reported on the low level of psittacin present in the deep blue chicks? Esp. in terms of a UV investigation? It reminds me a lot of emerald/aqua, and it would be interesting to see what colour (if any) the fluorescence study produces.

PS: Great pics, thanks everyone!

And for reference, a typical Dblue (cobalt) from SA
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:51 am

I'll ask him

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:57 am

Hi Ben, Johan and everybody,

Willy reported on the psittacin present in Deep birds, but he did not go further : not uv studies, not description of the evolution of psittacin with age, not description of dependence/independence of sexual status, not study of the % of Deeps showing this psittacin and not production of a single Deep-Ino. As you can see ... a lot of work to do ... if you have Deep birds .... easy if you live in Oz.

.... some thoughts about this psittacin present in Deep : it is a very low amount of psittacin with a distribution similar to what can be expected in Saphire ... but in Saphire this psittacin appears several months after feathering, and in Deep it is present at feathering and, apparently, decreases/disappear with aging (opposite to Saphire or to other patched mutation in which psittacin increases with aging). So, this psittacin behaves/is regulated differently than the even psittacin we can see in Emeralds or than the patched psittacin present in patched mutations (Saphire-Indigo-Turquoise morphotypes). Could this be a new type of psittacin? ... and could Deep be the first mutation acting at the same time on feather structure and on psittacin production? I agrre with those thinking that the production of a Deep-Ino or a Deep in green series is a priority to understand how this mutation behaves.

... and one observation : it seems that the nails of european cobalts (Dark Blue) are darker than the nails of Oz cobalts (Deep Blue), at least on the pics you have just posted. Could you confirm if it is a general rule? Usually nails colour depends on melanin so it is quite inexpected that structural mutations could alter nails colour. Madas ... what's your feeling?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:32 am

Hi Guys,
I agrre with those thinking that the production of a Deep-Ino or a Deep in green series is a priority to understand how this mutation behaves.

I am willing to go there.
I have arranged with Willy to get the male Turq. Deep/ino (nsl? SL?) in the pic i posted above, as well as an Albino Hen offspring.
See here how i want at this stage to pair them up, you'll realize that there's more then one reason for these pairings, however open to suggestions.
http://parakeet.me/irn/ino/nsl-sl-ino.htm

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:44 am

Hi Ben,

In your calculations you are assuming that Deep is an allele of Dark, and that, thus, it is linked to Blue/Parblue mutations ... this is still something to be proven. But I guess that you have done this because Dark and Deep are dominant mutations and that Deep is not yet implemented in the genetic calculator. Just to keep in mind that the % offspring expected could not be exactly what appears in your results.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:24 am

Willy said this in his last e-mail and perhaps some SA breeders can use this info or shade some light,.
I also invited Willy on the forum and i hope would join us but i think from previous forums he did not enjoy the athmosphere (not this forum)

I thought Azure was Deep and the Deeps in SA were the same as the Oz Deeps. I wonder who named the SA birds as it was me who named the Oz Cobalts, Deep Blue. According to Deon Smith there is a line of very dark Violets in SA and could be the bird with the dark nails. I would breed that bird to Blue to isolate and fix that trait. Mixing it with other Violets is just going to confuse, the darkness may be independent of the Violet mutation and you might get very dark Blue birds with black nails.


Regarding pictures, it would be great (not really possible) that we all breeders comparing pics to have same Camera using same settings, or at least to note the settings used.
I have brought home the "Cobalt" and here are pics i took with n without flash and different settings, check out the difference.


1 week ago: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg
today with flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octa.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octb.jpg
today no flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg

Comparing birds phenotype is going to be hard so the more we know about the way the pic was taken the better.

Recio, Good point regarding my previous post.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:14 am

OK Guys,

We put the SA "deep blue" to a DK Green/Blue and this is what we got this year:

Please keep in mind both these birds are green and out the same nest.

Image


Image

The bird at the bottom of the dish is the bird above
Image

Thoughts ?

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:33 am

Peter,
First thing i see is light nails and black nails?

How does the young green birds compare to parent Dark Green?

Hard to say, can you tell us your thoughts?

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:03 am

Hi Ben,

They are Clear Headed Fallows and the Olive one is split Clear Headed Fallow, hence the one bird with dark nails.

This picture was taken at noon with a flash

Image

The birds are completely different green to the parents and are way different to all our other DF's

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:09 am

Peter .... Now it's official: I'm Jealous :D !!!!!

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:50 am

Ok Jealous Ben ;-)

What you make of the color ?

regards

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:49 pm

Hi Guys.
Willy said that he's gonna have a look at the birds in UV this weekend!

Peter, i will post these pics of Deep Green for comparison
These pics are from Willy.
Info: Ron is the breeder with the website of Deep Blue pics, Martin is a breeder in Victoria

He Said:
Deep x Dark does not produce Mauve. Ron M. has bred a couple and they are a blue bird. He will pair one to a Blue next year to determine if Deep and Dark are alleles. I have already proven Deep and Violets are not alleles. I hope my last clutches this year will produce a DF Deep Violet Blue and a DF Violet Cobalt. The holy grail is the DF Deep DF Violet Cobalt and that is without this dark nailed business ....


Image
Image


Added another pic below:
Deep Violet EmeraldBlue
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:02 pm


The young bird i suspected of being something else i call it Trico. ( i bought this bird for being different to normal cobalts)
Willy reckons it is a Deep Blue and i agree.
That bird is a Deep Blue and Martin was the first I know to breed a DF Deep Blue


This young bird comes from Martin as a VioletDeep Hen thought by breeder as being a Violet Cobalt

Picture of the bird 1 week ago:
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico.jpg

Pic taken yesterday, with flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19oct.jpg
No flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg
same bird same camera diff settings and with n without flash what a huge difference


I need to get a UV lamp
Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:13 pm

Thanks Ben !

The Green series pics are great and a huge help as a comparison, i am going to my breeding partners this weekend to see chicks and will report back.

Please can you give me the colors in order of the first two pictures?

Thanks,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:28 am

Peter,

Can you also do a UV test on the deep?.
then we can compare results
Waiting to see what Willy comes up with.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:50 am

Hi Ben,

Just a plain Deep ?

Take a look at this, the Cock is one of the "odd birds" and the hen is a normal DK Green/blue

Cock
Image

Baby 1 (Very florescent under the UV)
Image

Baby 2
Image

Image

Baby 2 UV
Image

What you make of that ???????

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Peter,

I don't have a UV lamp gotta get one
but have a look at this pic my son took with dslr certain settings ..
If you look at the deep blue chick you'll notice high FP at the rump/tail
I think your deep green is showing that same thing

I will get a UV lamp and soon to confirm

http://parakeet.me/irn/w/taildb.jpg


Image



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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by willowisp71 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:44 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
The young bird i suspected of being something else i call it Trico. ( i bought this bird for being different to normal cobalts)
Willy reckons it is a Deep Blue and i agree.
That bird is a Deep Blue and Martin was the first I know to breed a DF Deep Blue


This young bird comes from Martin as a VioletDeep Hen thought by breeder as being a Violet Cobalt

Picture of the bird 1 week ago:
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico.jpg

Pic taken yesterday, with flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19oct.jpg
No flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg
same bird same camera diff settings and with n without flash what a huge difference


I need to get a UV lamp
Ben

Ben, It's amazing isn't it, how different camera settings and flash or no flash affect the colour of the bird! The colours in the second pic (with flash) are almost surreal!! Of the 2 pics (with and without), which photo best represents the colour as you see it in normal daylight conditions? Or is it a colour somewhere in between the two :?:
Regards Deb

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:25 am

Hi Peter,

have you looked at a normal green chick under UV as well to compare? One needs to compare apples with apples, so a green chick of that same age would do very nicely.

I went to visit the same breeder that Peter visited, because he confirmed that he had bred a cobalt and cobalt violet specifically with the lighter variety violet. Here is another pick of the one bird, and then a mixed bag.
Image
Image

The two birds at the top (right) of the last picture are very similar in phenotype, with the cobalt violet only very slightly darker than the cobalt. Clearly, the phenotype is very different from the cobalt violets that are bred from the darker strain of violet.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:12 am

Johan,

In the first picture limited to what can be seen, i say that the bird has only violet strain through it, no dark factor present.
Is that violet an SF or DF of the lighter strain?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:35 am

Hi Johan,

The short answer is yes I have compared to normal green birds under the UV and they look nothing like these.

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:44 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Willy said this in his last e-mail and perhaps some SA breeders can use this info or shade some light,.
I also invited Willy on the forum and i hope would join us but i think from previous forums he did not enjoy the athmosphere (not this forum)

I thought Azure was Deep and the Deeps in SA were the same as the Oz Deeps. I wonder who named the SA birds as it was me who named the Oz Cobalts, Deep Blue. According to Deon Smith there is a line of very dark Violets in SA and could be the bird with the dark nails. I would breed that bird to Blue to isolate and fix that trait. Mixing it with other Violets is just going to confuse, the darkness may be independent of the Violet mutation and you might get very dark Blue birds with black nails.


Regarding pictures, it would be great (not really possible) that we all breeders comparing pics to have same Camera using same settings, or at least to note the settings used.
I have brought home the "Cobalt" and here are pics i took with n without flash and different settings, check out the difference.


1 week ago: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg
today with flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octa.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octb.jpg
today no flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg

Comparing birds phenotype is going to be hard so the more we know about the way the pic was taken the better.

Recio, Good point regarding my previous post.

Ben
Hi Ben,

What Willy is pointing here regarding the nails colour is very important : this "darkening factor" could be the first melanistic mutation ever described in IRN. His test to get a Blue with the "darkening factor" will tell us if this is the case and also how this factor inherits.
Does anybody know where to find a review about nails colouring in birds?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:51 pm

prodigy wrote:Hi Ben,

Just a plain Deep ?

Take a look at this, the Cock is one of the "odd birds" and the hen is a normal DK Green/blue

Cock
Image

Baby 1 (Very florescent under the UV)
Image

Baby 2
Image

Image

Baby 2 UV
Image

What you make of that ???????

Peter
Hi Peter,

You say that the first chick (green one) is very fluorescent but you only showed an uv pic of the second one.... is the fluorescence of the first chick the same type than the second one or their fluorescence is different, as between Emerald and normals?
... and could you remind me the genetic make up of the parents? I was out for some days ... and I need to update myself.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:18 am

prodigy wrote:Hi Johan,
The short answer is yes I have compared to normal green birds under the UV and they look nothing like these.
Peter
Please elaborate. What are the differences? :)

Also, do you have a picture of the normal green at that age under UV? I would be very interested to see.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:14 am

Hi all,

A proper box is being built to photograph birds under normal light, Florescent light(white) & Ultra violet light.
I am sure that we will see some very interesting results from this exercise from babies through to the adult birds.

We have had a number of interesting babies relating to your discussion re the deep blues, cobalt's violets etc. there is an amazing difference in the various mutations that we have bred the gene's into I.E (Clear head fallow, Clear Head clear tail, Bronze fallow, Pied, Cinnamon, Pallid & Dilute with great result.

P.S - Is there anybody out there with mutation in either of the African Ringneck species (Krameri krameri or Krameri Pavirostris)

Not allowing me to add pic's at this point in time (Sorry)
regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:24 am

Welcome Zane! Hope you enjoy the forum, and esp. participating in discussions. Your knowledge on structural mutations will greatly benefit everyone here. :D

The idea of a box for photographing birds is excellent. It will allow for repeatable conditions for the photographs (Ben has also mentioned the importance), making it essential to our study of UV. The only problem I can think of will be getting shots of "open wings" where some human intervention is necessary.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:34 am

Yes Welcome Zane, its about time !

Johan the differences is huge, in very non scientific terms these birds GLOW and a bog standard green bird shows nothing at all.

You want to see the pictures, the tequila and beer is on you this time my friend ;-)

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:40 am

Hi Johan,

Yes, that is going to be a challenge in its own. we will do the pic's of the birds (Adults) on a perch from hopefully 4 angles and the wing we will have to see what we can do! I have considered putting UV into a entire room! but pic's in flight are also a challenge.

We will have to experiment the different options! but like breeding birds it all can take time.

below in my email, we could share a few pic's and ideas. I am not able to upload pic's for some reason.

Regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:43 am

Hey Peter,

I hope that you have not shared all the pic's yet! lol we need some secrets!

And thanks for the welcome, have you told Johan or the others of the BEAUTIES you seen this weekend at my place?

Regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:24 am

Zane, Welcome to the forum.
Your input will be appreciated!

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:42 am

prodigy wrote:Johan the differences is huge, in very non scientific terms these birds GLOW and a bog standard green bird shows nothing at all.
You want to see the pictures, the tequila and beer is on you this time my friend ;-)
Well, in non scientific terms I wanted to confirm whether green birds will show a little bit of "glow" already at a couple of weeks of age. It is known that they do after about 18 months, but I haven't studied young birds. That's why I asked for a reference picture. As for beers and tequila, you know where I live... :wink:

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:16 am

Most young normal green birds are ever so slightly florescent, nothing compared to the birds we have been talking about.

I have taken young blue series birds as well as violet and if I test for florescence in a complacently dark room you cant even see the bird.

Violet Turq Opaline
Image

But as Zain says lets built the UV photo booth and then we will have a nice controlled environment.

Peter

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Hi Peter,

I completely agree : we need standard conditions of observation to be able to compare birds. The intensity of the fluorescence in the pics depends on many factors other than the bird mutations: uv intensity, wavelentgh or amplitude spectrum, exposure time, ... so the description of standard conditions for observation is a real challenge.

I guess Deon will add some fluorescence pics in his next book ... and in the books to come every bird showing psittacin should have an "under uv pic" besides, to allow for identification of each psittacin type and how it is affected in that specific mutation.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:36 pm

Hi All,

Thinking of UV, i played around with this program & I think i stumbled upon something interesting.
I have used: Paint.net (a free program) and changed the settings to: Hue=154, Saturation=150 (see first pic)
I am sure these settings are not the ideal settings but it's a start.
Conclusion: Deep as well as Dark (Cobalts) birds show a high red,violets a faded shade.
The most intresting part is the green normal birds appear with no red at all, the deep green birds however show a distinctive red through them.
Most pictures below are from this thread (normal greens off the net)
Anyone can try this and fine tune it.
It might be nothing but i think it's a start.

NOTE: These birds are not red - Images have been modified with above settings

Image
Image


Deep Greens
Image


Deep Blues - Peter your birds are Deep Blues see below, if they were violets would have been a faded orange.
Perhaps we can identify any bird if Dark or Violet strain???
Image
Image
Peter's pic
Image
original Image
UV Image

Cinnamon Violet left Cinn. Deep Blue Right
Image

Df Emerald
Image

ADM Pied
Image

DF Deep Blue & DF Violet Blue
Image

Bucket of chicks
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/bucket.jpg
original pic
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/bucketorig.JPG

Turquoise series:
Turquoiseblue
Image

Turquoise Deep blue
Image
Indigo -
Image

I believe that we can use this system to identify violetblue and violetcobalt (and more) if unsure what it is...
Easiest when you have all birds in question in 1 photo. see bucket of chicks pic as example..
Anybody can try this with any pictures. (blue also shows a different red again)
All pictures are changed to the same settings, a pattern emerges, and it is clear that deep has an intresting red to them, dark also, patterns are there even with all sorts of pictures, any camera and with many different lighting conditions.
Let's Explore.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:10 am

Hi Ben,

What you are doing is treating colours so that our eyes can easierly see the differences, but you can not compare two different pics because the apparent colours are different even if the bird on each pic is the same. This is a very valuable tool to look for little differences at colours where our eyes are not good enough. Ex: after aging our eyes can not detect little differences among different blues as you can obtain by combining structural mutation on the blue series. If you just inverse the colours your eyes, which are more efficient in the red colours, will be able to easily detect these changes... but again you can only compare mutations within the same pics and never between different pics.

Regards

Recio

PS: This topic was previously discussed in the yahoo list... although the work looking for the good settings was not as far as Ben has gone... just inversing colours with one simple click on your computer.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:09 am

Hi Recio,

I did not see that yahoo thread,
Cool, then i am not crazy :lol:

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:21 am

No, you are not crazy ... but very smart ... do not change.

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:34 am

Ben I use filter's on my iphone to tell the difference when it comes to some of the more complex color combinations like Violet Mauve Turq and even certain cobalt birds from violet and Deep's.

Then off to the UV to make sure ;-)

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:47 am

Hi All

I have a good way of checking! I just get Peter round to photograph my birds and apply filters! Its a slightly longer process because it sometimes take him a while to come visit. Even though I have sooooo many deep blue birds and mutation.

Oh well at least we chat often on whatsapp hey!

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:58 am

Filters are a great idea, although you can only use it on your birds not others(unless you go to them).
It'd be great if we had a common system where any photo will do, this way others without the tools can still compare.

Zane, Do you have a DF Violet Clearheaded Fallow? Or a Cobalt CHF?

I'd love to see it, working on getting one but it looks like it's going to illude me this year.. only a few CHF's to feather up.

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:06 am

prodigy wrote:Ben I use filter's on my iphone to tell the difference when it comes to some of the more complex color combinations like Violet Mauve Turq and even certain cobalt birds from violet and Deep's.

Then off to the UV to make sure ;-)
I thought we discussed those filters after I gave you pics that turned out to give the wrong result... You saying you still use it? :twisted:

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by madas » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:29 am

prodigy wrote:Ben I use filter's on my iphone to tell the difference when it comes to some of the more complex color combinations like Violet Mauve Turq and even certain cobalt birds from violet and Deep's.

Then off to the UV to make sure ;-)

Hi Prodigy,

can you provide some pics of the turq mauve violet?

Thx in advance.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:51 am

Hi everybody,

Those are pics from Zane till he will be able to directly post. I know that some of them have already been posted. He will comment on the pics. He wrote :

These birds were bred from the following:

Turq Deep blue / Clear head fallow - Darkgreen clear head fallow / blue

The first baby is a double dark factor green series CHF
The second is a double dark factor split CHF but not Olive as I have bred a few since 1995
The Third is Deep blue's split CHF


I am wandering if the first and second chicks are also Deep as labeled in the pic file. Could you tell us?

Regards

Recio

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:04 am

Hi all

Peter and I have discussed them a lot, the pic of the Red birds in the container send through previously are of the third pic but now older. The other 2 are from the same nest 6 chicks in total and we believe they are Deep green Dark greens (1 deep green factor and 1 normal dark green factor)

There was two CHF chicks from the pair the other is a Turq Deep blue CHF

In the Deep blue splits there were 3 and then the 1 in the second pic carrying both Deep and dark green

What are all your thoughts

Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:21 pm

Hi Zane and everybody,

I think that the Deep mutation is not a structural mutation but a melanistic mutation. Reasons:

1. Why this mutation was called Deep by Willy? Because the resulting colour in the blue series was a deep blue. It means that the colour is the same than in normal blues but with a higher saturation. The colour appears as a deep blue because it is not altered by any change in feather structure (as it happens with Dark or Violet). How can exist a deeper blue colour without altering feather structure? The only answer is ... it is due to an increased melanin production.

2. This is the only mutation showing dark nails if there is not any melanin reducting mutation in the combo. Nails colour depend only on melanin production, since the keratin does not produce any interference phenomenon in the nails ... so this finding also points to an increase of melanin in the Deep mutation.

3. Deep inherits as dominant ... and most melanistic mutations inherit also as dominant.

How to prove or disporve it? Of course ultrastructural studies are necesary but we can make a different approach:

Structural mutations (grey, dark and violet) alter feather structure in different degrees. Grey seems to be the mutation producing a stronger alteration of feather structure and this is the reason why ...
1. Grey is able to mask Dark and Violet (similar to lutino masking any other mutation partially acting on melanin).
2. Grey is a "complete" dominant mutation (Dark and Violet are incomplete dominant).
3. Grey is "grey" in blue series and Dark and Violet are different shades of blue ... that is Grey mutation completely destroys feather structure and we can directly "see" the melanin without any interference by the reflected blue ligth.

So if we want to prove that Deep is a melanistic mutation the easier first study to do is to combine Deep and Grey: if Deep is an structural mutation the resulting bird will be grey (most probably grey would mask it), but if it is a melanistic mutation the resulting bird will be somewhere between dark grey and black colour (Terry would say that the colour will never be black because black depends on the melanin expressed on the cortex ... and this melanin is only present in budgies ... but our IRN own a black ring!!! ... so we can always dream).

This will open new possibilities ... open our minds : if Deep was a melanistic mutation ... how would look a SL-ino Deep IRN? Would Deep be able to uncover the residual production of melanin present in SL-ino birds? Would allow the combination of Deep with SL-ino or with NSL-ino to get different visual combos?

... and the ever coming question ... why this has not been done earlier? ... or it has already be done?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:37 pm

how would look an SL-ino Deep IRN?


As we know Willy has bred an Albino out of Turq. Deep X Blue.
If all goes well i wll get the 3 birds off him and i can pair them up to experiment this further.
If Albino bred is Deep then it behaves as we know, by masking deep.
as mentioned previously i want to make the 2pairing as mentioned here:
http://parakeet.me/irn/ino/nsl-sl-ino.htm
unless we come up with other /better suggestions
At this early stage i feel that deep is also a good candidate to mix for the red holly grail as well..

I like the thought of the grey deep - pretty sure not many has mixed yet the grey with deep. unless Ron has it on his website
he calls it grey black see bottom of the picture
Image


looking at my grey/chf through the hue/sat. system i used
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/mygreyz.jpg


His greyblack through hue/sat clearly shows "blue" or deep + grey most likely
Image


He must have put Deep to a Grey Harlequin Pied and got ???Grey-Deep??



*** Zane, Peter: Are you saying that all 6 chicks are of Deep mutation? or did i mis-understand?
The first pic. i am not convinced that it is a green type bird, i would have thought that it is a Deep blue CHF
There's only one pic of the wing so perhaps more pics would be nice.
We have seen Deep blue Cinnamon being almost as washed as a Blue Cinn bird, very hard to tell between them. chf also dilutes color..
there's not many that have introduced deep into chf yet, so we can not compare phenotypes.
we need as much info from you guys and your opinions and perhaps how you came to that conclusion, so for the rest of us to have an opinion.

Cinnamon Deep Blue
Image


Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:36 pm

Hi Ben, yes that first bird is a green bird i could not believe it myself the first time i saw it

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:39 am

Hi Peter,
I am struggling to see how you guys got to that conclusion.
I know some breeders hold their cards close to their chest, and that's fine if that's the case but then it makes it so much harder for everyone to expand knowledge and to develop. I wish you had more pics even in private to some of us in this discussion at least, so we can grasp your opinion, then we can share opinions etc.. . So it is not a deep parblue chf either .

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:17 am

Hi Ben

Are you referring to the bird that I said is a double factor green series bird? if so then could you please get my mail address from Peter or Recio so that I can discuss with you, I have nothing to hide! I am not currently able to share pictures on this site as yet but will gladly send to you. you may then do the Paint test for now and re post to this page if you like.
I am always open to discussion and willing to share my findings, The babies are due off the nest in about 2 weeks or so! but Mom or Dad did pluck them a bit. I will be taking many more pictures of them and share with all of you.

I am willing to test my birds with the likes of grey to see what happens, perhaps Ill find i nice couple of Grey mutations to put to the green and blue deeps or what ever they are.

I am very sure that it is not normal dark as I have them and bred Mauve, Olives etc. also the pic's in the bucket of the birds that Peter send went red and they my babies from the same nest! part of the six which is also the 3rd picture posted by Recio on my behalf Just older now

Kind regards

Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:19 am

Sorry to go a little of the topic but I have personally seen 2 birds which are supposed to be Cobalt Grey, but my eyes can't see any difference to a normal grey bird, how would one distinguish between the 2 and what am I supposed to look for, or is the only way to find out by test mating the bird

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:43 am

Hi Lushen,

Recio was refering to Deep Blue Grey, it is a dark factor but trying to figure out if dominant or co- or incomplete dom.
Grey masks Cobalt you can not see anything different, only grey manifests so only through breeding can be proven.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:51 am

Hi Lushen

From my experience on grey cobalt you see more of the blue or cobalt color on the rump than if it were a normal grey! However this has a very different effect when using the deep blue gene in that the deep has the blue with a different sheen to the rump and flight feathers

Regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:55 am

Hi Ringoneck, thanks for the reply, so if one were to breed a Cobalt Grey Ino, would this bird then look albino and also need to be test mated, also same question applies to a cobalt ino, I'm sure that this bird should also look like an albino and need to be test mated to prove its genetic makeup?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:18 am

ZaneFindlay wrote:Hi Lushen

From my experience on grey cobalt you see more of the blue or cobalt color on the rump than if it were a normal grey! However this has a very different effect when using the deep blue gene in that the deep has the blue with a different sheen to the rump and flight feathers

Regards
Zane
Hi Zane, thanks for the reply, that's what I was also told to look for blue on the rump, but my eyes couldn't see any on these 2 birds, I know that you are unable to post pics at the moment, but I would appreciate if you could perhaps email a few pics if you have of cobalt grey and the blue on the rump

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:21 am

Lushen,

As Zane mentioned, to a trained eye there can be vougue tinges of blueish /coboltish color but i have a grey masking violet and i can not see anything on him, same with an Albino masking violet.
If you know one of the parents was a Cobalt then it is worth looking for markers, but just taking any grey would be a fruitless exercise.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 am

Hi Ringo, that is true, taking any grey would be a fruitless exercise, but the 2 birds I've seen were told to be cobalt greys and when I compare them to my birds, visually the look identical to my grey male, so I thought that maybe there was something that I wasn't seeing and just wanted to know what to look for. So if a cobalt grey looks visually grey, then what would a Deep blue Grey look like?
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:53 am

Good Question !

Possibly like the one in a picture i posted a few posts earlier from Ron
Or just like a normal grey, we don't know yet.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:59 am

can you provide some pics of the turq mauve violet?
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:47 am

Hi Molossus, I wasn't thinking of purchasing such a bird, just saw 2 at a breeders house and wanted to learn more so that I can train my eye to look for identify features of various masked mutations

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:01 am

Lushen1600 wrote:So if a cobalt grey looks visually grey, then what would a Deep blue Grey look like?
Lushen, that is the million dollar question! :) Let's take some examples.

1) Grey combined with other mutations causing a structural change (dark and violet) almost completely masks the other mutations. Only sometimes it leaves very very faint traces, esp. in the forehead, the rump and I also believe in the "fluffy" feathers covering the upper legs.
2) Grey combined with turquoise, but it does not mask the green (caused by yellow "pigment"). You can clearly see the green and there is never any doubt about it. Similar with emerald, the emerald grey(blue) shines like a dark gem in sunlight, distinctly different to the normal grey(blue) which is dull in appearance.

So why can we see the difference with parblues and emerald? Because it acts in a different way (on psittacin) than structural mutations. Why is the question of grey deep important? Since it will quickly give us information whether deep acts like a structural mutation (and grey should mask it), or not.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:19 am

Hi Johan, thanks for the reply,

So does that mean that grey is not able to completely mask any mutation which is dominant or co-dominant, but has a higher masking effect on incomplete dominant mutations?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:34 am

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Johan, thanks for the reply,

So does that mean that grey is not able to completely mask any mutation which is dominant or co-dominant, but has a higher masking effect on incomplete dominant mutations?

Thanks
Lushen
Hi Lushen,

It is not a question of inheritance mode but of final action : as Johan explained if Deep is a structural mutation (alters feather structure) we can guess that it would be masked by Grey (like Dark and Violet are more or less masked by grey), but if it is a melanistic mutation (increases melanin production) we should expect a darker grey or a black IRN, similar to Ron's bird.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:45 pm

Here's an article done by Russell one of the first in OZ to have violets, he is talking about the Deep or the violet strain Johan has?

Just click once on the picture to enlarge to readable size, or right click and save then you can open it and enlarge to read.

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/cover.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/p544_545.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/p546.jpg


These are done with Hue/Sat system in Paint.net (although pic is taken from the book not live birds and were slightly edited when published)

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/p544_545z.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/p546z.jpg

Spring in OZ - pic my backyard -Rainbow Lorikeet having lunch
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/native3.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/native4.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by madas » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:44 pm

Hi ring0neck,

i have used your method and same settings for altering the pics with Paint .NET. So here are my results:

cobalt
Image

comparison cobalt, violetblue, cobaltviolet
Image

ct violetblue (could be df)
Image

cobaltviolet
Image

cobaltviolet (flash)
Image

rec. pied violetblue
Image

ct turqcobalt
Image

ct violetblue
Image

ct violetblue, ct blue, ct turqcoablt
Image

greetings

madas

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:09 am

Madas,
ct violetblue (could be df) - he certainly looks dark
impressive birds & pretty good pics !

Zane,
take some more pics with nice light clear of blueish light as that makes it hard to get a good look at the colors.
Beautiful birds !

Ben


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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Lushen1600 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:19 am

So what colour does a normal blue look like under those setting on paint.net?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:31 am

Hi Lushen,

It shows as a darker apple red, best results when all birds are in same pic even without the hue/sat system it is easiest to compare.
or practise till you can tell the difference.
dark factor has that pinkish orangee
dark & deep you can see the difference between them.
the one lowest (middle) is blue

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/L-RDeepBlue ... kBluez.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:38 am

Hi Ben,

I will send more of the CHF's once they off the nest, we have had around 2 weeks of overcast weather and rain so perhaps that is the reason for the bluish haze / color.

I have so many pictures of my birds, what are your thoughts on the birds so far?
Will you be subjecting the pic's to the Paint test and posting them with comments and for comment by the others.

From what I understand I have to post somewhere between 12 & 20 posts before I am able to upload any pic's

The Previous Pic's are very nice and thanks for sharing them with us.

Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:50 am

Hi Zane,
Because the blueish haze pics come redish allover, diminishing the birds color features.
You can email me more pics and post more often, answer some new questions around so you can post pics also.

Your breeding program seems more advanced then ours, i am yet to see violet cobalt chf here in OZ (not saying there isn't any)
some breeders are quietly working on developing certain mutations but that hinders progress - everyones.
We have had a wierd season here on the North side of OZ
had a high % of DIS & DIH and out of say 4 clutches of chf's i got 7 young only. some conures same thing

I really think that the deep x grey will be a winner.
If so, I will donate first sale proceeds from the grey deep to Recio.
(if not we'll send him the bill) hahaha

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:14 am

Hi Ben

LOL, I think his intentions are good, But if he has a good mutation in grey that would be of value to the exercise and a way to get it to me in South Africa I am willing to try it.

I have started searching and giving thought to the matter and I think we could try with a few mutations! I would like to try to Clear Head clear tail as the body color is still dark unlike the CHF mutation and others.

If anybody has ideas let me know, I have secured a Double factor grey CHCT hen and I know of a double factor split CHCT & Cin cock bird (But the chicks are going to be possible split CHCT and that would be a waste of time)

I still have a pair of grey cobalt CHCT's so perhaps ill use them (they 9 years old) the idea then was to produce a double factor grey mauve CHCT.

regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:01 am

Ring0Neck wrote:i am yet to see violet cobalt chf here in OZ (not saying there isn't any)
Hey Ben, the least I can do then is to let you have a look at this one here in SA. :D
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:10 am

Hi Ben,

Thank you for the very interesting article of Russel about this darker blue bird. The only possible explanation to date is that it does not seem any allele of Violet or of Dark, and that probably it is an structural mutation able to mask Violet. Respective the inheritance mode it seems to be dominant but till now we can not say if it is sex linked or carried in the autosomes. Anyway this mutation is different than the Deep we are discussing ... although they could be related. Affaire à suivre.

@Madas and Ben: very interesting colour treatment to identify mutations in the blue wavelength. Do you think that it will allow to make the differences among all the possible combinations of Dark, Violet and Deep both SF and DF forms, in blue series birds? We have more than 20 possible genetic combinations and I must confess that I am not able to see the phenotypic differences among most of them. It would be great to have a confident tool like this to identify colours than our eyes can not detect with enough accuracy.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:55 am

Johan, intresting outcome
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:55 am

This is a Violet Cobalt bread out of the same deep Violet blue line could it be a Deep Violet Cobalt ?

Image

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:33 am

Let's put this to the test. Who can ID these mutations? :)

Bird 1
Image
Bird 2
Image
Bird 3
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:49 am

Recio, i think the DFs become harder to identify, the darker the bird the more lighting is required, as Peter's bird is a good example
system it is in trial, and if anyone wants to play around with settings and see if it will identify darker birds better?

Peter, Great pic. .it is a good challenge, i can see two mutations hard to say on the third since they are so close in color. try having a deep in the pic or at least similar settings and a pic from the back. although tail looks cobolt.
Also you can see the most color shown is of dark factor not violet, so perhaps there can be the 2 deep n dark covering most violet.
in your pic below clearly a violet deep looks more violetish. Is yours a CHF ? that alters the color also.
Image
Any takers to Pete's Question?


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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:03 am

Johan,

I think that the 3rd bird is mine??? :lol:
That's a great lookin bird right there, no idea yet, i'm just admiring and i don't think i know what it is with or without the system.
Looks like a parblue ready to express red :D

This system will give us another dimension to look at birds, and initially i was looking for FP/red
if it can be used accurately not sure yet but i am certain it will help us one way or the other.


Ben


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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:10 am

@Johan according to the filters

Bird 1 = Cobalt
Bird 2 = Violet or DF Violet Truq
Bird 3 = Cobalt Turq

whats my score ?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:36 am

Ben,

Very interesting comment, as I have already used your system on my red birds and across all 3 mutations the red shows up as and ice blue color.

Image

Image

Image

Image

THE NEXT TWO BRIDS ARE NOT MINE

Image

Image

Image

Image

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:57 am

prodigy wrote:@Johan according to the filters

Bird 1 = Cobalt
Bird 2 = Violet or DF Violet Truq
Bird 3 = Cobalt Turq

whats my score ?
I will let the puzzle run a little longer. I enjoyed it very much when Madas used to do this. I often wish he would give some more puzzles. I'm sure he has some.

Hint: Are you saying the colour of the backs between the wings of bird 1 and 3 is the same? Surely, turquoise can't do what we are seeing there... :wink:

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:32 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Here's an article done by Russell one of the first in OZ to have violets, he is talking about the Deep or the violet strain Johan has?
Ben, it seems as if the article was written in 2005. Has the author made any headway in the last 7 years? Would be interesting to get feedback on progress.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:54 am

Johan, i will give him a call
this is a cockbird violet peter russell's bloodline (bird of a friend)
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/bDeepnVioletpr.jpg
my friend had cockbird's mother sine 2005-2007 approx. - paired to a blue

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:29 am

Puzzle : If you understand how the color system works, you'll be able to identify these 2 birds in the pic
It is simple .
Don't worry too much about SF & DF

I will give you the answer by uploading the original pic instead of telling you :lol:
You will tell us if you were right..

Ben


http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/puzzle.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by trabots » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Prodigy or Peter, sorry to hijack this thread but what is that white and pink bird in your images?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:54 am

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:i am yet to see violet cobalt chf here in OZ (not saying there isn't any)
Hey Ben, the least I can do then is to let you have a look at this one here in SA. :D
Image

Thanks Johan, Keep us updated on that lot with pics please.
I thought violet cobalt chf would be much darker then that..
Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:37 am

Hi Willy,

I was apparently bead from:

1,0 cobalt violet / lutino(ino) x 0,1 Lutino/blue

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:55 pm

Hi Peter,

So this combination is from the reccesive lutino line, have anymore been breed from this pair?

Regards Glenn

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:35 pm


1,0 cobalt violet / lutino(ino) x 0,1 Lutino/blue
I doubt that is the whole story.
In this case we can assume that the bird's genotype would be:
D blue violet ino ( SL INO)
or D blue violet NSLino

Could it be pied markings? or Turquoise? rec. pied, DF perhaps?
I'd be great if we could get more info from the source inc. parents and the rest of the offspring would be much appreciated.

Johan, Molossus, or anyone else, have you had or seen an INO masking rec. pied?
Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:44 pm

Hi Ben,

The marking's looked pied to me as well, here are some more pics.

@Glen, my line of reccesive lutino are already on the 3rd generation and the all show red including the offspring that have bread now and have produced red as well.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:21 am

Hi all,

I was not paying attention and put this message into the incorrect thread! LO I get so busy reading and chatting to people.

Peter & Ben

They are the same babies in the pic in the white bucket earlier in the thread, they are split CHF's

Babies,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

now with the paint change the Ben brought into discussion,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

another pic

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

again with the paint changes,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream


Please feel free to comment on the pictures, the baby is one of three (3) split CHF and there is 1 double dark (Green Series) split pic below

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream


regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:18 am

Hi Zane,


Is the hen DF Deep? on color chart thingy looks more violet then dark.
Deep is lighter then a Cobalt, unless you have a deep blue violet? or df deep blue hen?
In one of the threads i wrongly said the other way, but Johan did correct me.

If you look at the split chf's tail if violet is on the main tail feathers then it is a violet strain there .
let us know what you find.

PS. You said: Cobalt X Deep split CHF = do you mean that both are split CHF? or cobalt/chf X Deep chf?
With only one CHF there can not be CHF chicks only splits.

PPS. I think Deep Blue hen is CHF, right?, i've never seen a Deep Blue CHF yet so can't really say...

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:46 am

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the reply,

The male is a Turquoise (Dark factor bird) Blue series split CHF and the hen is a (Dark factor) green series split blue & CHF

The chicks were as follows:
3 X (Dark factor) blue series split CHF - *as per the pictures posted*
the other 3 are in the picture (link below) - Please note that the pic was taken using a flash

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

Top left is a double factor dark (green series) CHF split blue - Below that is a Turquoise Dark factor (blue series) CHF - and the one to the right is a Double dark factor (Green series) split Blue & CHF

I hope that this clarifies, perhaps I have incorrectly named them in the pic

This is the pic when you do the paint adjustment

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream


so a total of 6 babies from a visual CHF hen to a split CHF male - (only 2 CHF's chicks :( )


Regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:55 am

Hi Zane,

Ben's got it right. The Australian breeders that have dubbed their Australian cobalts as 'deep' has all reported that it is a lighter shade of blue compared to the European cobalt. Some of the photos of the chicks you have uploaded appears to be darker than their cobalt parents. Usually, from the SA birds I've seen, when one sits with a cobalt looking bird slightly darker than a normal European cobalt, it means that it is a cobalt violet, with the violet originating from imports from Belgium. My logic says that a bird darker than a cobalt, will also produce mauve-like double factor birds. This is unlike Australian cobalt that produces a dark blue DF. Still a lot of work needs to be done before we'll solve this mystery. Time will tell.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:02 am

Johan,

What's your take on the white/pinkish bird Peter uploaded?
Have you got any info on it at all?
Genotype, parents rest of the nest outcome?
Is that bird a healthy specimen?

Ben

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:09 pm

Hi All,

Trying this again, see if picture attached of Emerald SF Violetblue Pallid hen.

Image

If it dosnt work then that is it!!!!

Regards Glenn

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:14 pm

Well that didn't work again, I followed the process from other section of how to post picture, must be doing something not quite right, Ben & others need some help, want to share some photos for comments and dont want to burden Ben all the time.

Regards Gelnn

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:56 pm

Sorry to take a couple of goes, but I am trying again.

Emerald SF Violetblue Pallid hen

Image

Hope this work this time

Regards Glenn

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:19 pm

very nice looking bird, she yours Glen ?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:32 pm


Just an update on the bird that opened this thread. Turquoise Violet Blue Pallid Hen
Summary: During the last 6 months she gradually lost almost all violet color, had 3 young all 3 violet
Now she seems to be going through an early moult and violet is starting to re-appear.
Pics below:

http://parakeet.me/irn/pallid30oct.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/pallid30octb.jpg

last pic:
http://parakeet.me/irn/pallid30octa.jpg

Last edited by Ring0Neck on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:18 pm

Hi All,

I think the white bird had fun playing with a cotton wool ball and Mercurochrome! LOL it should be healthy and will be okay as soon as it goes through the next molt.

Johan S,

Thanks for your opinion, when will you be gracing me with you presence at my house to see my birds (perhaps all three dark colors). I am looking forward to breeding the double factors next season, even though I have one this year (pitty its a green series) but clearly not olive.

I so cant wait for the next seasons breeding, I do believe that we will have some mind boggling results.

Peter,

Please will you post the pic's of my Violet (pos Double factor) split CHCT that you took at my place, as I still have to for sale.

Regards
Zane

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by smick » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:56 am

Unfortunately for me the indigo blue cock/pallid to df violet blue hen's eggs wern't fertile and looks like they wont try again this season. i suppose for a one year old hen and two year cock the chances were that they may not be fertile yet.at least she sat full term so should be a good hen.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by mallee_1 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:53 pm

Hi Peter,

Any chance of seeing some pics of your recessive lutinos with extent of red markings?

Regards Glenn

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:10 am

Hi Glen,

Any time!

Image

Image

Image

Image

And here is a little experiment Recio and I did with a hammer ;-)

Before Hammer
Image

After Hammer
Image

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:43 am

prodigy wrote:Image
Peter, are you sure that is a photo of a recessive lutino? Seems very green to me.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:00 am

Hey Johan,

I have both, this bird is recessive or even possibly even dominant, I will report back after we have had the chicks sexed.

As this year we put "yellow-red" cocks to our Red Pallid's and to Red Pied blood lines and in some instances have got some strange breeding results, that can only be confirmed after sexing.

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Stacey m » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:24 pm

What the difference between a normal coloured (solid colour) ringneck and a lacewing/ pallid ringneck.....I have attached a picture I one if my baby's ...I was told its parents where blue split green lacewing/pallid ... I did notice a greenish tinge to one of the baby's tails. I just want to know what's best when it comes to breeding them? But if i leave the parents as they are , are they ok just like a normal pair? Would love not info as I may keep a baby from another clutch to breed.

This new commer would appreciate any help :)

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:40 pm

Anybody wants to have a punt what this is? (not the green cheek behind)

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:36 pm

Deep Emerald Turquoise ?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:05 pm

Hi Peter,
Update: time will tell what it is through breeding results!

I'm waiting for him to get out of the molt and he is getting his ring, so far no red only yellowish.
Time will tell. I am also working backwards on his bloodline.
Whatever he is i have 2 other birds from this bloodline and i intend to develop it, regardless what is, i just love the bird.
He did not breed this year as he was moved to another hen (by original breeder) during breeding season and the hen attacked him.
He is recovering nicely.
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Sherjil » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Hi Recio;

With reference to your discussion related to recessive & dominant classification of mutations on another group; I would like to ask below query :-

Since this method proposed by Ringo is helpful in identification between two different mutations of blue series birds which otherwise are hard to distinguish by human eye (Upper or close to upper part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve) ... Is it logical to think that the method can be helpful to elaborate the hetrozygous forms of blue in dominant mutations (w.r.t. blue) e.g. a green series bird split to blue

i.e. lower or close to lower part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve where changes incurred by reduction in psittacine are not detected by human eye and hence we perceive two green birds as same when genetically one is green w/o any blue and other is hetrozygous form of blue in green.

regards



Recio wrote:Hi Ben,

What you are doing is treating colours so that our eyes can easierly see the differences, but you can not compare two different pics because the apparent colours are different even if the bird on each pic is the same. This is a very valuable tool to look for little differences at colours where our eyes are not good enough. Ex: after aging our eyes can not detect little differences among different blues as you can obtain by combining structural mutation on the blue series. If you just inverse the colours your eyes, which are more efficient in the red colours, will be able to easily detect these changes... but again you can only compare mutations within the same pics and never between different pics.

Regards

Recio

PS: This topic was previously discussed in the yahoo list... although the work looking for the good settings was not as far as Ben has gone... just inversing colours with one simple click on your computer.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:54 pm



father pic above, previous post

Image

notice the light shade on the head (used autoLevel to enhance visibility)

Image

Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Sherjil » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:33 am

Sherjil wrote:Hi Recio;

With reference to your discussion related to recessive & dominant classification of mutations on another group; I would like to ask below query :-

Since this method proposed by Ringo is helpful in identification between two different mutations of blue series birds which otherwise are hard to distinguish by human eye (Upper or close to upper part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve) ... Is it logical to think that the method can be helpful to elaborate the hetrozygous forms of blue in dominant mutations (w.r.t. blue) e.g. a green series bird split to blue

i.e. lower or close to lower part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve where changes incurred by reduction in psittacine are not detected by human eye and hence we perceive two green birds as same when genetically one is green w/o any blue and other is hetrozygous form of blue in green.

regards



Recio wrote:Hi Ben,

What you are doing is treating colours so that our eyes can easierly see the differences, but you can not compare two different pics because the apparent colours are different even if the bird on each pic is the same. This is a very valuable tool to look for little differences at colours where our eyes are not good enough. Ex: after aging our eyes can not detect little differences among different blues as you can obtain by combining structural mutation on the blue series. If you just inverse the colours your eyes, which are more efficient in the red colours, will be able to easily detect these changes... but again you can only compare mutations within the same pics and never between different pics.

Regards

Recio

PS: This topic was previously discussed in the yahoo list... although the work looking for the good settings was not as far as Ben has gone... just inversing colours with one simple click on your computer.



Looks like Recio is away .... anyone else who would like to share his thoughts ??? :roll: :?






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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Sherjil That is a tough nut to crack. you can certainly try.

Here's a pic courtesy of Len of Turquoise Emerald Grey & Emerald & i have added the daughter of the bird in Question in this thread on the left.

Image


So, why do i think that there's another mutation in the mix?

Firstly, the mother yellow bird is a DF? Turquoise df? Violet Pallid + ?
The phenotype of the bird is not same as any other Pallid which clearly displays the yellow head.
ref: http://psittacula-world.com/EN/Mutation ... Pallid.htm
2. Even distribution of psittacin throughout the bird.
3. This year's offspring, chicks sold young :( all 3 were violets and displayed psittacin at fledging.
4. Daughter (now mature - see pics) same thing it looked almost black at fledging.



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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:45 pm

Image

cockbird after molt

Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by trabots » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:55 pm

I am a bit mixed up with the images however the last 2 images are of a DF Violet TurquoiseBlue or a Violet TurquoiseBlue in my opinion. Are they of the same bird with and without ring?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Willy,

The one without ring is offspring hen of the yellow looking hen and the cockbirdbird showing the ring. (not certain but pretty sure they are all related over 5 year period was cross bred turq to turq.)
I've had/seen plenty of turq. and none looked close to these, but if it so they are the best lookin turq. i've ever seen.
Violet on the hen's tail is deep dark purple, no double factor violet comes close that i have seen.

* I have no doubt that they are DF Violet Turquoise or Violet Turquoise, not sure about the blue
The yellow hen (mother) is still a miss as a pallid.

- It's like looking at a turq. pallid & turq. clearheaded fallow - one must detect/identify the differences to be able to make a decision what the bird's genotype is, my birds have some features that don't make sense for a straight turq. or pallid turq. for the mother.

Does anyone have a turquoise and tail to be colored on the inside same as body?

Cheers
Ben

pic of hen after molt
Image

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:23 pm

Does anyone have a Pastel Violet Clearheaded Fallow?
If you have, can you please upload a pic ?

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:58 am

It takes patience and other elements to get a good pic
Here's a couple i've taken today.
Flash was used.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/turqy.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/turqy1.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/turqyside.jpg

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by willowisp71 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:03 pm

Nice looking bird, Ringo - I can see why you want to develop this line :D
Regards Deb

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by sottobosco » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:26 pm

Dio mio! What a fantastic bird!

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by madas » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:18 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Does anyone have a Pastel Violet Clearheaded Fallow?
If you have, can you please upload a pic ?
Here you go:

clearhead fallow Violet TurqBlue:

Image


clearhead fallow Dark Violet TurqBlue:

Image

Image

madas

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:02 am

Thanks heaps Madas.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:29 am

Hi Madas,

I have bred 2 clearhead fallows males and I have noticed that it takes longer for them to reach sexual maturity than for any other male showing other mutations. Even at 2 years they did not dysplay as usually males do (I thougth they were females) and the ring only appeared on the 3th year. Is this a general rule for clearhead fallows or is something specific to my strain? Which is your experience with this mutation?

Regards

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by madas » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:55 am

Recio wrote:Hi Madas,

I have bred 2 clearhead fallows males and I have noticed that it takes longer for them to reach sexual maturity than for any other male showing other mutations. Even at 2 years they did not dysplay as usually males do (I thougth they were females) and the ring only appeared on the 3th year. Is this a general rule for clearhead fallows or is something specific to my strain? Which is your experience with this mutation?

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio,

sorry but i can't tell you because i don't breed them. Cleartails and opalines are nicer. ;)

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:17 pm

prodigy wrote:Hi Ben,

The marking's looked pied to me as well, here are some more pics.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Regards,

Peter
I doubt it is just INO, i doubt it is INO at all.

If i had to make a guess now i would say:
Cleartail Pied Turquoise Cinnamon (possibly opaline)
i reckon that combo would come close to this bird


Peter, can you follow up on this bird see if you can get any updates?

Cheers

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Recio wrote:Hi Madas,

I have bred 2 clearhead fallows males and I have noticed that it takes longer for them to reach sexual maturity than for any other male showing other mutations. Even at 2 years they did not dysplay as usually males do (I thougth they were females) and the ring only appeared on the 3th year. Is this a general rule for clearhead fallows or is something specific to my strain? Which is your experience with this mutation?

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio,

I missed this comment previously. Fallows are harder to breed than other mutations and sometimes takes longer to reach sexual maturity. There are some bronze fallow examples where cocks took 5 years to reach sexual maturity.

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:08 am

Thanks Johan

... so my birds are standard clearhead fallow :)

Recio

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ringneck » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:06 am

What a fascinating thread. Thank you all! I learned at lot. I gotta grasp genetics. It's amazing all the work done to develop new mutations. Left speechless! :0)

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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by John Shannon » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:50 am

Hi Ben
At the start of this post you show a pallid with brown flights.
Here is a picture of a bird I breed a few years ago and this is him (long gone) and his mother looked the same as that hen.
The breeder told me at the time she was a Turq pallid. Is there many Brown flighted IRN's out there?
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