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help please

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justin76253
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help please

Post by justin76253 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:55 am

how do i put a turquoise grey cock and a indigo blue hen in the genetic cal?

thank you

smick
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Re: help please

Post by smick » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:57 am

From what i know about gencalc,to check your cock bird if it's a visual turquiose grey then you check grey sf and turquiose and blue. but with the hen are far as i know there is no indigo in gencalc to check and all you can enter her is as a turquiose and blue.but herein lye's the problem how do you work out the percentage of indigo or turquiose in the offspring mixed in with the grey .

Johan S
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Re: help please

Post by Johan S » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:22 pm

Both are dominant in the blue series, so the simplest answer is to consider it just like any other dominant x dominant pairing. Lets ignore any type of interaction that may or may not occur. Then the result will be

25% blue
25% indigoblue
25% turquoiseblue
25% indigoturquoise

From above, you'll be able to identify the blue and indigoblue birds. But, the next question is, will the turquoiseblue and indigoturquoise look the same? Turquoise is closer to the wildtype than indigo, and thus it should dominate indigo. It may then look like 50% of the offspring is turquoise (blue or indigo unidentified). Thats at least what my gut feeling is telling me. Don't necessarily take this answer as gospel.

Recio
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Re: help please

Post by Recio » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:52 pm

Hi Johan,

I agree completely.
The only question here is : does an IndigoTurquoise induce a higher production of psittacin than a BlueTurquoise?
To me it depends on the type of turquoise: As you know, and you wrote to me, there are some BlueTurquoise IRN showing a heavy turquoise phenotypic expresion. If the turquoise at work in the above equation is of this type your answer is really like gospel, since the system is at saturation and no one SaphireTurquoise or IndigoTurquoise or TurquoiseTurquoise could ever induce a higher production of psittacins. But if the turquoise at work is a phenotypic light turquoise we could guess that the IndigoTurquoise could be able to induce an increase in psittacin production higher than a BlueTurquoise.

Regards

Recio

justin76253
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Re: help please

Post by justin76253 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:02 am

thank you all for your help :D hopefully they will breed this season if they do i will post a picture

jarreds mutations
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Re: help please

Post by jarreds mutations » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:55 am

this may seen silly but what colour is in a indigo?

Recio
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Re: help please

Post by Recio » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:47 am

Hi,

It is like a ligther turquoise, with bluish body feathers. Turquoise males dysplay a tricolour ring (white, red and black). Indigo males ring is just black and white (no red due to the general decrease in psittacins).

Regards

Recio

Johan S
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Re: help please

Post by Johan S » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:03 am

Recio wrote:Hi Johan,

I agree completely.
The only question here is : does an IndigoTurquoise induce a higher production of psittacin than a BlueTurquoise?
To me it depends on the type of turquoise: As you know, and you wrote to me, there are some BlueTurquoise IRN showing a heavy turquoise phenotypic expresion. If the turquoise at work in the above equation is of this type your answer is really like gospel, since the system is at saturation and no one SaphireTurquoise or IndigoTurquoise or TurquoiseTurquoise could ever induce a higher production of psittacins. But if the turquoise at work is a phenotypic light turquoise we could guess that the IndigoTurquoise could be able to induce an increase in psittacin production higher than a BlueTurquoise.

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio,

long time no see, welcome back to the forum! :D

Of course, your answer makes a lot of sense, and I completely agree IndigoTurquoise could be able to induce an increase in psittacin production higher than a BlueTurquoise, but under the assumption that our turquoiseblue has not reach saturation yet. However, I confess that I have not stated all assumptions I've made to get to my previous answer, since I usually try to simplify things here as we have a wider audience than for instance on the genetic mailing list, and I don't know if everybody here would like a more detailed discussion (comments welcome, though!). Thus, the assumption(s) not mentioned, is that only three parblue alleles exist (turquoise, indigo and saphire), and that these alleles are 'remarkably stable' (if I can quote you. :) ) in the heterozygous form. Under such assumptions, there will be no such thing as a phenotypical light turquoise. Or rather, a phenotypical light turquoise would actually be our indigo candidate, and an extremely light turquoise our saphire. Ironically, as you know, my personal belief is still that it is actually just variation of turquoise by selected breeding and that these morphotypes are probably just a single allele. Some more investigation will be necessary, so for me, the verdict is still out. But these types of experiments with turquoise x indigo would certainly shed some light, especially with birds in the heterozygous form.

Recio
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Re: help please

Post by Recio » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:03 pm

Hi Johan,

Probably what we call Turquoise, Indigo and Saphire are different morphotypes corresponding to several mutations. How many? for sure far more than the 3 above morphotypes. If you consider that they are different expressions of the same mutation you should expect a great variability in the amount of psittacins among the same offspring. But this does not correspond to reality when analysing the offspring phenotype from an heterozygous TurqquoiseBlue and an homozygous Blue. The parblue offspring will remarquably dysplay the same phenotype than the TurquoiseBlue parent, thus meaning that there is not the great variability suppossed by the hypothesis of a single parblue mutation differently expressed. Far more there are different patterns of turquoise, some with more psittacin let on the wings, others mainly on the back neck, ... and it is the exact pattern which is repeated whenever we do not mix other parblue, that is when we pair an heterozygous ParblueBlue to an homozygous Blue. Anyway, as you say, those are just speculations and time will say.

Regards

Recio

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angeldc77
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Re: help please

Post by angeldc77 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:12 pm

Where does emerald fall into place in all of this? Or is that something different all together?

Johan S
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Re: help please

Post by Johan S » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:14 pm

Recio, I (again) agree and don't necessarily agree. I'm complex that way. :D What we are seeing in turquoise are birds what have been bred selectively over 30 years. The offspring might not necessarily vary all that much from their parents, but that doesn't necessarily say that they look exactly or very close to their great-great-great-great-great-grandparents. :?: There we might clearly see a difference, IF somebody decided that they prefer 'blue' turquoise birds and selected only the offspring with the least psittacin at every generation. However, I might be too focused on the phenotype here.

Also, for these birds, I fully agree that we should deviate from the norm to investigate the dominant trait in double factor, and rather try to reach new conclussions from the heterozygous birds.

Another point worth getting back to. On the basis of saturation of psittacins, this would mean that a homozygous turquoise would look very similar to a heterozygous turquoise (both already saturated or near it), but a homozyous indigo 'should' show more psittacin than the heterozygous indigo. Do you agree?
angeldc77 wrote:Where does emerald fall into place in all of this? Or is that something different all together?
There is a big debate raging over exactly this question. For me it is rather simple, our parblues discussed in this topic shows a psittacin with yellow fluorescence under UV light. An emerald (also called aqua in Bastiaan's book) shows blue fluorescence. Therefore, I share the opinion of those believing emerald is something completely different.

Recio
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Re: help please

Post by Recio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:35 am

Johan S wrote:Another point worth getting back to. On the basis of saturation of psittacins, this would mean that a homozygous turquoise would look very similar to a heterozygous turquoise (both already saturated or near it), but a homozyous indigo 'should' show more psittacin than the heterozygous indigo. Do you agree?
... and an homozygous Indigo could look similar to an heterozygous TurquoiseBlue, ...and an homozygous Saphire could look similar to an heterozygous IndigoBlue, ... and so on.
That's why, in these parblues it could be better to study the heterozygous birds rather than the homozygous.

For Aqua (or Emerald) mutation may be we will have the answer in 2-3 months

Regards

Recio

Johan S
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Re: help please

Post by Johan S » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:53 am

Unfortunately, I only own one parblue that can possibly be indigo, so I can't set up an experiment with indigo x indigo to establish whether we do see and what a homozygous indigo would look like. Hopefully somebody out there has done / is doing it. To be honest, I can't imagine why this hasn't been done before at length. Although I'm sure it has been done, it is rather the information that isn't being discussed.

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Razsringnecks
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Re: help please

Post by Razsringnecks » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:33 am

Recio wrote:
Johan S wrote:Another point worth getting back to. On the basis of saturation of psittacins, this would mean that a homozygous turquoise would look very similar to a heterozygous turquoise (both already saturated or near it), but a homozyous indigo 'should' show more psittacin than the heterozygous indigo. Do you agree?
... and an homozygous Indigo could look similar to an heterozygous TurquoiseBlue, ...and an homozygous Saphire could look similar to an heterozygous IndigoBlue, ... and so on.
That's why, in these parblues it could be better to study the heterozygous birds rather than the homozygous.



For Aqua (or Emerald) mutation may be we will have the answer in 2-3 months

Regards
Recio
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I can't wait to see your findings on the Aqua (or Emerald)....That will be interesting.

Recio
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Re: help please

Post by Recio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:36 am

It will not be my findings but Deon's. I do not own any Emerald.

Let's wait and see

Regards

Recio

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Razsringnecks
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Re: help please

Post by Razsringnecks » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:49 pm

Thanks Recio,
It still could shed some light on a lot of confusion.
:P

smick
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Re: help please

Post by smick » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:13 am

I currently have both a cock turquoise blue and a indigo blue cock in side by side avairies and there is a deffenant colour difference. The turq has more green suffused through the front of the body,whilst the indigo blue has a unusual almost slate blue front, where i purchased him from all the indigo cocks seemed to have this colour. I have had a turq hen that was only green through the back and wings so they do vairy greatly. it would be interesting to see the outcome from pairing the two colours together,or by pairing two indigo's together,thanks Smick.

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Ring0Neck
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Re: help please

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:21 am

For Aqua (or Emerald) mutation may be we will have the answer in 2-3 months

Regards

Recio


Do you have anything on the Emerald yet from Deon?

Ben

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