CHALLENGE! Photos!

[SCB -SA]

nice

[dog_glenn123]

I dont think its a pallid(lacewing).

What colour are its eyes?

Thanks Glenn

[SCB -SA]

i cant really tell...

[Recio]

there is a male and a female (identical except for the males ring)

They almost look like a normal green, with the blue in the tail, but yellow heads and then the different colour body

If it was clearhead fallow only the male would show a clear head at sexual maturity, and both male and female would display plum eyes.
If it was a cleartail only the male would show a clear head at sexual maturity, and both male and female would display a yellow tail from feathering.
Another possibility is bronze fallow ... but these birds are not on the market, and the clear head is only shown by the males.

The only mutation with clear head in males and females is pallid, so I think it should be a bright pallid. This is my bet.

Recio

[Recio]

yup cleartail is right and darkfactor too. But this isn't the the whole story.
"a pic of the tail will solve" think twice of it and read my previous post again. ;)

Hi Madas,

I have read your post more than twice, but my english does not allow me to catch the hidden meaning of your words

If this is a dark cleartail green IRN the tail must be completely yellow from feathering, but I see a shadow of green all the long of the upper part we can see in this "lateral view" of the bird. I do not know any combination of mutations able to recover melanin in the tail when the cleartail mutation is present.... excepting ... perhaps opaline, which could act by redistributing melanin and psittacin... Do you really own a dark-cleartail-opaline green (I guess female) IRN??? Please post the good pic ... I am leaving for 5 days. Otherwise I would not sleep !!!

Best regards

Recio

[madas]

Hi Recio,

ok i will solve the riddle. It's a cleartail oliv /blue. the two main feathers of the tail are mauve. the left one and the right one between these two main feathers are oliv to mauve. i have noticed that all my other darker cleartails have non yellow e.g. non white main tail feathers. DOn't know if goog or not.

greetings.

[Recio]

Hi,

OK I will not sleep for next coming days ...

This is the first time I hear something like that. I own a young grey-green cleartail male split blue (very similar to the bird in your post) and his tail is pure yellow. Could you post the pic of the tail? ... and tell us something else about the parents, siblings, ... Do you know how it inherits and if it is coupled to the carried blue gene?

Regards

Recio

[mallee_1]

Hi Recio & Madas,

I have made the observation as well as others that the dark factor in the cleatail series tend to carry more colour through the central tail feathers than the blue & violet cleartails, but in saying that there are some out there with pretty good clear central tail feathers as well.

Well I had a guess without posting and I was nearly correct, wasn't sure if it was sf or df.

Keep posting some photos, this is interesting, especially you blokes located in European areas seeing what you have compared to Australia.

Mallee

[madas]

Hi,

OK I will not sleep for next coming days ...

This is the first time I hear something like that. I own a young grey-green cleartail male split blue (very similar to the bird in your post) and his tail is pure yellow. Could you post the pic of the tail? ... and tell us something else about the parents, siblings, ... Do you know how it inherits and if it is coupled to the carried blue gene?

Regards

Recio

Parents are 1,0 cleartail turquoise cobalt and 0,1 cleartail darkgreen /blue. I will take a picture of the tail on the next days. Here are two pictures of the parents at a bird exhibition:

[SCB -SA]

gees those are stunning birds. wish we had colours like that here

[Recio]

Hi,

If dark action on cleartails is not restricted to Madas' strain of IRN we should look at the effect of dark mutation on other mutations decreasing black eumelanin (cinnamon, lutino, dilute, ...). Do you have any input about it?

Anyway it is hard to explain since dark acts on feather structure and, in theory, does not increase melanin. Could it be due to a melanin enhancer gene coupled to the dark gene? This has sense since breeders have always selected birds with the darker pigmentation for breeding and, may be, the dark gene has become coupled to a melanin enhancer factor allowing us to see some melanin at places where it is not expected to be present.

Really beautifull birds Madas. Congratulations. I remark that your bird could be DF dark since both parents are dark, but melanin in the tail is not related to the possible DF dark since father's tail shows also mauve colouring in the central tail feathers.

Expecting more pics

Best regards

Recio

[madas]

I remark that your bird could be DF dark since both parents are dark

So what do you think a cleartail oliv /blue should be? ;)
So to be correct: the bird is a cleartail DD green /blue (doublefactor dark). Hope it's clear now.
And thats why the tail feathers look mauve like.

He is setup with a cleartail violett (DF) female. so the hole offspring is cleartail violet darkgreen or cleartail cobalt violet.

[dog_glenn123]

Hey for some reason i cant see before SCB-SA posted the pic and hence cant read Madas post!! (the one Recio is talking about.
Can somebody please copy it back in for me to read?

Now questions for Madas, why are the nails of the cock bird not black? especially since it is dark factor and possible d dark?

Either way very nice bird Madas and very nicely structered feathers! very smooth.

Thanks Glenn
PS welcome back boys (Recio n Madas)

[Recio]

I remark that your bird could be DF dark since both parents are dark

So what do you think a cleartail oliv /blue should be? ;)
So to be correct: the bird is a cleartail DD green /blue (doublefactor dark). Hope it's clear now.
And thats why the tail feathers look mauve like.

He is setup with a cleartail violett (DF) female. so the hole offspring is cleartail violet darkgreen or cleartail cobalt violet.

Hi Madas,

Let's speak properly: you think it is a DF dark bird because ir shows a mauve tail. Without the mauve tail you can not really say if he is SF or DF dark since cleartail mutation acts also on the whole body making the feathers to appear more clear (hard to make the difference between dark green and olive when cleartail is present)... but we have not seen a good pic of his tail (just his father which is one of the most beautifull birds I've ever seen!!!). Do you have a pic of a SF dark cleartail green to compare both the tails? One is supossed to be mauve and the other cobalt (I guess)... but I am not sure this will be the right colour in cleartail birds.


Hi Glenn

Cleartail mutation acts also on nails making them to appear light grey (less melanin), but dark mutation acts only on feather structure without increasing melanin. This is the reason that dark green, olive, cobalt or mauve do not display darker nails ... and that dark cleartail displays ligther grey nails.

Best regards to everybody

Recio

[SCB -SA]

Good to see i finally got everyone brains going again, thought madas n recio had disappeared and it was just you and me Glenn, the forum got very quiet for a while.

Will have a look back and try post it for you, but have u tried going back to page one? because the post where i put the pic is the start of page 2 so you should be able to go back a page to the rest of the posts???

[madas]

Now questions for Madas, why are the nails of the cock bird not black? especially since it is dark factor and possible d dark?

because light feet and light coloured nails is one characteristic for the cleartail mutation. And this is often the
first sign for a cleartail offspring in the nest.

greetings.

[madas]

So lets see:

the parents (cleartail turquoise cobalt x cleartail darkgreen /blue) in the aviary:




cleartail violetgreen /blue x cleartail violet:




cleartail darkgreen /blue x cleartail violet:



greetings.

[dog_glenn123]

OK back upto speed now after a little help finding the rest of the discussion.

Madas again very nice birds.

Are all your birds that dark? even the none dark factors?

Since i know where you live there will be no difference between your SF DF Violets but the last hen is very dark violet. I know she isnt dark factor so why is she so dark?

Our DF violets are only that dark in Aus,

It seems alot of IRN's in Aus are getting lighter and lighter!! most blues here now look sky blue or cinnimon blue and they arent carrying the cinnimon gene.
Even greys arent that dark either, the darkest wild i have seen in years is my own and thats because of his age.

I know some people here are developing darker Turquiose mutations but you dont get to see them.

Thanks Glenn

[dog_glenn123]

So here we go again next guess boys and girls!!!.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... ess3-2.jpg

Ta Glenn

[madas]

So here we go again next guess boys and girls!!!.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... ess3-2.jpg

Ta Glenn

So do you have some harder riddles???

It's a violet saddleback (dom. pied) of Chris Whips.

[madas]

So what do you think which mutation combination is this bird:

[dog_glenn123]

Its body looks Turquiose(Parblue) Blue Pallid but has a wild head!!!?

Show me the front view please?

Ta Glenn

[Recio]

Hi,

Let's go: turquoise cinnamon saddleback is what it looks to me ... but I know that people breeding saddlebacks would never mix with cinnamon in order to avoid loosing colouring , so probably it is a turquoise saddleback.

Where did you get it? I have not seen the bird in either Mick or Chris collections.

Regards

Recio

[minivip2001]

Hi. ..... I introduce my boy. .... http://www.flickr.com/photos/minivip200 ... /lightbox/

[Recio]

Hi,

Beautiful bird. It looks like a rainbow (pallid-turquoise). Could you please take a pic of the tail in a front view?

Recio

[minivip2001]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/minivip200 ... hotostream#/

Thanks. ......... for the compliments

[Recio]

We can see that the tail is yellowish (it is not a turquoise cleartail which would have displayed a white tail, and would have been a more coloured bird) and the general color is quite soft which is typical of rainbows. On my screen the blue of the chest seem cobalt. If it was the case the bird is a cobalt rainbow (genetically dark-blue-turquoise-pallid or if homozygous for turquoise: dark-turquoise-pallid).

E un molto bel uccello, congratulazioni.

Recio

[madas]

We can see that the tail is yellowish (it is not a turquoise cleartail which would have displayed a white tail, and would have been a more coloured bird)

I vote for exactly such a bird. cleartail turquoise cobalt or cleartail turquoise. Really nice bird. Where did you get this bird???

greetings.

[madas]

Hi,

Let's go: turquoise cinnamon saddleback is what it looks to me ... but I know that people breeding saddlebacks would never mix with cinnamon in order to avoid loosing colouring , so probably it is a turquoise saddleback.

Where did you get it? I have not seen the bird in either Mick or Chris collections.

Regards

Recio

Hi Recio,

no saddleback. turquoise cinnamon is right. but the bird carries some more mutations.
The bird is owned by a very good friend of mine.

greetings.

PS: I will answer your mailed questions in some days. I haven't so much time at the moment.

[Recio]

Some more mutations? In plural?

Let's see:

Turquoise because the 3 colour ring, green head in a blue series bird and patched wings. May be it is turquoise-blue and you are considering 2 mutations for a turquoise phenotype?
Cinnamon because of the "golden olive" colour of green wing patches.

Two other characteristics:

1. Lost of melanin in remiges of the wings. This can be found in saddlebacks, but you say that it is not a saddleback ... It is not a dilute (would display an almost yellow head) ... Could it be a pallid? ... I do not think that: it is too difficult to get pallid and cinnamon expressed in a male (both are sex-linked mutations), the head would not be green but yellow, and the general colour very soft ... Cleartail? Again the tail should be white (although when looking at your birds we could accept a bit of blue), but a turquoise cleartail should display a yellow head ... so it is not a cleartail. In fact I do not find the mutation inducing clear remiges.

2. A cobalt or clear violet colour in the some chest feathers we can see in this lateral view ... so probably there is also dark or violet .... please, what about a front view?

May be the clear wings are due to the effect of combining turquoise and cinnamon ... and the 2 other mutations are D and violet.

Is it a turquoise+/-blue-cinnamon-dark+/-violet?

Come on, tell us please
Recio

[madas]

Some more mutations? In plural?

Let's see:

Turquoise because the 3 colour ring, green head in a blue series bird and patched wings. May be it is turquoise-blue and you are considering 2 mutations for a turquoise phenotype?
Cinnamon because of the "golden olive" colour of green wing patches.

Two other characteristics:

1. Lost of melanin in remiges of the wings. This can be found in saddlebacks, but you say that it is not a saddleback ... It is not a dilute (would display an almost yellow head) ... Could it be a pallid? ... I do not think that: it is too difficult to get pallid and cinnamon expressed in a male (both are sex-linked mutations), the head would not be green but yellow, and the general colour very soft ... Cleartail? Again the tail should be white (although when looking at your birds we could accept a bit of blue), but a turquoise cleartail should display a yellow head ... so it is not a cleartail. In fact I do not find the mutation inducing clear remiges.

2. A cobalt or clear violet colour in the some chest feathers we can see in this lateral view ... so probably there is also dark or violet .... please, what about a front view?

May be the clear wings are due to the effect of combining turquoise and cinnamon ... and the 2 other mutations are D and violet.

Is it a turquoise+/-blue-cinnamon-dark+/-violet?

Come on, tell us please
Recio

Hm, ok. The bird carries no pallid, no cleartail, no clearhead. He is cinnamon turquoise + two more mutations. one of them produces a brighter head. the other a wing pattern. In combination with the two other mutations this pattern isn't expressed by it's best.

greetings.

[Recio]

What?
Brighter head? Opaline induces a darker head but I can not see what mutation induces a brighter head.
Are you meaning a turquoise-cinnamon-opaline-dom edge bird?
Where is the opaline head? It looks a normal green
And the edge pattern in a bird with diluted remiges ... how could we see it?

When more than 3 primary mutations are combined it becomes really hard to solve the riddle

If the answer is right ... how can be sure your friend about the genetic make up of the bird? I bet that the number of possible offspring from his parents is really high and when the phenotype is not typical ... only the outcomes when paired to hens with basic mutations can allow to know his genetic make up. Do you know the parents of this bird?

Regards

Recio

[Recio]

Hi again,

The probability for a cinnamon-opaline male (homozygous for two sex-linked mutations) is extremely low. If you add two more recesive mutations it becomes nearly impossible. What about the parents and possible offspring? Could you give us some more data?

So ... you said bright head: every mutation carrying melanin would display a bright colouring around the beak, not really a bright head. If you are refering to this kind of brightness we should consider dark and violet, as I previously did (this brightness is typical of turquoise, but turquoise is already in the "equation"). These are factors expressed in heterozygous birds, and thus the probability to get them is higher. We would really need a front view to detect it possible action on blue feathers less afected by turquoise (chest feathers). If we look just at the tail feathers there is not data to conclude that structural mutations are present.

I think that turquoise-cinnamon-dom edge and Dark or violet could fit the bird ... but, again, there would be at least 3 mutations acting on head colour .... so .... hard, hard, hard ...

Recio

[madas]

Hi again,

The probability for a cinnamon-opaline male (homozygous for two sex-linked mutations) is extremely low. If you add two more recesive mutations it becomes nearly impossible. What about the parents and possible offspring? Could you give us some more data?

So ... you said bright head: every mutation carrying melanin would display a bright colouring around the beak, not really a bright head. If you are refering to this kind of brightness we should consider dark and violet, as I previously did (this brightness is typical of turquoise, but turquoise is already in the "equation"). These are factors expressed in heterozygous birds, and thus the probability to get them is higher. We would really need a front view to detect it possible action on blue feathers less afected by turquoise (chest feathers). If we look just at the tail feathers there is not data to conclude that structural mutations are present.

I think that turquoise-cinnamon-dom edge and Dark or violet could fit the bird ... but, again, there would be at least 3 mutations acting on head colour .... so .... hard, hard, hard ...

Recio

Hi Recio,

so because you aren't fare away from the right solution here it comes: I was told that this bird is a misty turquoise cinnamon dom. edged. That the bird carries the misty and dom. edged gen is true because the headcolor is caused by misty and both parents carry the dom. edged gen. But i am not sure if you can identify the cinnamon is the visual expression.

Greetings.

[Recio]

Hi,

So it is a turquoise-cinnamon-dom edge- codominat mutation (misty) !!!

I have no experience with misty (I have never seen this mutation in the flesh) but I have read that he has a clearer head (not really brighter). The head does not seem that clear in the pic.

Cinnamon mutation is easier to identify on the wings than on the head, in the case of males (specially if other mutations are present). If you look at the heads of a green cinnamon or a blue cinnamon male you will remark that they are nearly the same than in a normal green and a normal blue, but the wings colour is far more "cinnamon".

Could you get some pics of the parents and siblings from your friend?

Best regards

Recio

[fawad]

which mutation is this

[Johan S]

Hi Recio/Stefan,

I'm a bit of late joiner and this is an interesting topic that have resurfaced. Even though this mutation combination have been identified, I'd like to discuss the possibility of an alternative (even if only academic, and discussing for the sake of discussing). If I had to guess, I would have gone with turquoise (no doubt about that, I'd venture that it is a very green, possibly homozygous candidate), but also dominant pied (and heavily pied at that) and either opaline / misty (albeit I'd have gone with opaline), i.e. dom. pied turquoise opaline. Your thoughts?

Best wishes,
Johan