Black headed indian ringneck

[javi]

Hi,
Can some one tell me what kind of mutation is this one. His name is Zorro


The father of Zorro is grey with a black head and the mother is grey and some people don't believe me. Zorro's head is not black yet but is clearly changing and getting darker. He will be two years old in March. I just want to know what kind of mutation is this one.

[Recio]

Hi Javi;

Your baby seems to be a grey-green-opaline. Father and mother can not be visual grey (genetics: blue-grey) since zorro is green-grey. Father must be homozygous for opaline because opaline is a sex-linked mutation. Something else: you should not call "him" zorro but zorra .... in fact "he" is she.
Could you post some pics from her back, tail and wings?

Saludos

Recio

[javi]

Hi Recio,
This is where it gets more interesting. Zorro is DNA sex and is a he. And the father and mother of Zorro are visual grey. I know the opaline mutation and they don't have the black head.
Zorro's dad's head is black not just dark. Here is a pic of Zorro's dad.



I don't have a picture of Zorro's mother but she is visual grey and you see Zorro's dad is visual grey with a black head and since Zorro is DNA sex this mutation can't be the opaline.
Here is a picture of Zorro when he was about six months old. His head wasn't as dark as it is now.
http://indianringneckparadise.webs.com/ ... d=67192586

All of Zorro's brothers and sisters look just like him.

Please let me know what you think

[Recio]

Hi Javi!!!

Very, very interesting ...
I am looking at the first pic on another computer with a better screen and you are right: it is not grey-green but grey. If all brothers and sisters are black-headed then probably it is a dominant mutation ... a new mutation which is not at all the equivalent of the black face in budgeriers, which is autosomal recessive. Do you know how the mutation appears in blue or green birds?

If really a new mutation ... "zorro" mutation seems a well adapted name

Regards

Recio

[javi]

Hi Recio,

I know is a different mutation. I just want to know what type, for now I just call it black head lol.
My friend's grand father had two pairs of black headed ringnecks. One of hens died and he paired up the black headed male with a regular grey hen and a few years later the people who got birds from this pair reported to him all black headed birds. This is where I got Zorro from and they still have the other pair.

Thank you for your help.

[ellieelectrons]

I think in peachfaces they call them masked? This kinda fits with the Zorra / Zorro theme?

Ellie.

[Recio]

Hi Javi;

Do you know where the first black head came from. Possibilities:

1. He appeared from normal parents as a new mutation. It can happen mainly with dominant mutations. One chance in one million or more.

2. He appeared from mutated or split parents and he is the result of a combination of dominant mutations which are inherited at the same time because their loci are very closed in the same cromossome. It would not be a single new mutation but a combination of 2 known mutations being inherited at the same time. He would be the result of a crossingover (similar to the true lacewing or cin-SL ino crossing over).

3. The black head, and pink head, are also found in other members of the psittacula family (psittacula himalayana, psittacula cyanocephala, psittacula roseata, ...). Is there anything in zorro allowing to think that his ancestors came from hybridizing with one of the species above? (I mean low size, eye iris, psitacines in the wings, different voice or behaviour, ...). It could have been done many generations ago and by back-breeding to normal IRN the black-head could have been "transmited" to IRN.

Which is your feeling?

Something else: even in dominant mutations half of the offspring is not mutated (normal) when pairing to a normal bird. You say that all of them were black head .... so strange Could you develop further?

Regards

Recio

[javi]

Hi Recio,
I know that my friend's grand father who used to be a breeder for a long time bought the two pairs of black headed indian ringneck in Arizona and we are from California.
How those mutaion happened we don't know.
Zorro doesn't show any visual signs of a hybrid and about his voice he talks so much and sound exactly the same as my lutino indian ringneck they both know exactly the same and some times I don't know who is talking they speak very clear. He shows regular color on the wings, He is a little darker on the wings and the back of his body but that is normal. and his size a normal also not small and maybe a little bigger than some indian ringnecks.
Like you said maybe something was done many generations ago and they still carry the mutation. I can't think of anything else but I love him.

My friend's grand father is in a better place now and my friend has no access to the birds like he did before. You know how those things are, one of his unckles is now the owner and doesn't let any body take any birds. So I didn't get my female that I was waiting for.

Thank you.

[riccardo]

hello, I can not tell you that change is, I can tell you is beautiful. by me in Italy there are no such mutations.

[Recio]

hello, I can not tell you that change is, I can tell you is beautiful. by me in Italy there are no such mutations.

Hi Ricardo;

You can find most of IRN mutations in Italy. You just need to go to Reggio Emilia (the biggest cage bird exposition in Europe).

Recio

[Recio]

Hi Javi;

Could you ask your uncle to send you some pics of black heads in other birds than grey (blue, green, cinnamon, ...). It would be interested to know how the mutation behaves depending on the quantity and/or distribution of melanins and psitacines, and on a normal feather (grey mutation alteres feather structure).

Regards

Recio

[javi]

Hi Recio,
Is not my uncle, is my friends uncle and I need to ask my friend if he can do that for me last time they weren't having a good relationship after my friend's granfather died.
I know that they only have grey with black head not any other color

[Recio]

What a pity !!!

We wil have to wait and see for zorro offspring. Which is the girl you are thinking for him?

Recio

[riccardo]

18 who are going to Reggio Emilia but mutations so I've never seen, to see all the changes of the collars must go to Holland.

[javi]

Hi Recio,
I know we will have to wait one more years. I am thinking a blue female since I have no idea how this mutation behaves I will risk with a blue one maybe will get some blue black headed that will be realy beautiful.

[Recio]

Hi Ricardo;

Last year i went to Reggio in Italy and there were many mutations to sell, some "normal" (lutinos, albinos, cinnamon, blue, turquoise, grey...) and others more difficult to find (cobalt, fallow clearhead, cleartail, violet ...). Of course you can not find every mutation: some of them are preciously kept by the breeders and others you must go to look for them to other countries (arlequin to Australia). Anyway prices in Reggio were far more expensive than expected: 1200 euros for a young male grey clearhead and 900 euros for a young violet.
You are right: prices are lower in Belgium or Holland.

Recio

[Recio]

Hi Javi;

I think that a blue female is a very good first option, provided that zorro is SF grey. If he is DF grey all the babies will look like him. If he is SF grey we will see if blue babies (50%) display a black, grey or dark-blue head... and you will know for sure the way the mutation (?) inherits.

Do you know anybody with a black head female? It would be great to pair her to a pallid male ... how would the offspring be: white or black head?

Recio

[javi]

Hi Recio,
That is exactly why I want to pair him up with a blue hen. And about the black head cock x lacewing hen, it would be interesting to see what the offsping will look like.

I have a question for you. I don't know if Zorro is a DF yet we will know once we see his babies, but I was thinking if the DF will also apply to the black head and maybe that is why all of the zorro's brothers and sisters are like him, the father maybe a DF and the grey mother SF. What do you think? would it be possible?

[Recio]

Hi Javi;

Let's develop:

You wrote that Zorro's father was paired to a normal grey female. If black head is a dominant mutation the female could not be split for black head, and zorro can only be SF black head (even if zorro's father was DF black head). This is the reason why I told you that you will finally know how the mutation inherits: 50% of zorro offspring would not be black head if the transmission is normal autosomal dominant.

Possibilities:

1. Zorro is SF grey SF black head and the female is normal green split blue. I wil note black head mutation as BH. You will get for all males and females:

12.5% 1.0 grey(sf) blue G+/G;bl/bl; ............. visual grey
12.5% 1.0 blue bl/bl; ................................ visual blue
12.5% 1.0 grey(sf) blue black head (sf) G+/G;BH+/BH;bl/bl;...... visual grey black head
12.5% 1.0 blue black head(sf) BH+/BH;bl/bl; ............. visual blue black head
12.5% 1.0 grey(sf) green /blue G+/G;bl+/bl; ............. visual grey green
12.5% 1.0 green /blue bl+/bl; ............... visual green
12.5% 1.0 grey(sf) green black head(sf) /blue G+/G;BH+/BH;bl+/bl; ..... visual grey green black head
12.5% 1.0 green black head(sf) /blue BH+/BH;bl+/bl; ......... visual green black head.

2. Zorro is SF grey SF black head and the female is blue: For all males and females:

25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) blue bl/bl;G+/G; ............... visual grey
25.0% 1.0 blue bl/bl; ................... visual blue
25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) blue black head(sf) bl/bl;G+/G;BH+/BH; ............. visual grey black head
25.0% 1.0 blue black head (sf) bl/bl;BH+/BH; ............. visual blue black head

3. Zorro is DF grey SF black head and the female is normal green split blue. For all males and females:

25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) blue G+/G;bl/bl; .................. visual grey
25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) blue black head(sf) G+/G;BH+/BH;bl/bl; ....... visual grey black head
25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) green /blue G+/G;bl+/bl; ......... visual grey green
25.0% 1.0 grey(sf) green black head(sf) /blue G+/G;BH+/BH;bl+/bl; ........ visual grey green black head.

4. Zorro is DF grey SF black head and the female is blue: For all males and females:

50.0% 1.0 grey(sf) blue bl/bl;G+/G; ......... visual grey
50.0% 1.0 grey(sf) blue black head(sf) bl/bl;G+/G;BH+/BH; ...... visual grey black head

As you can see the best option to pair zorro is not a blue female but a normal green split blue. It will allow you to see how the mutation behaves in blue and green series.

Something else: black head mutation appears in a bird displaying 2 other mutations (blue and grey). We do not know if this mutation is present in anyone of the cromossomes carrying either blue or grey mutations, or if present in a different one. If present in a different cromossome his inheritance is independent of blue and grey and you should get the % offspring as noted above. If present in the cromossome carrying the grey mutation the inheritance of black head mutation would be coupled with the inheritance of grey and you will not get blue or green black heads in the above % offspring but at a lower rate depending on the proximity between grey and blackhead loci in the same cromossome (closer they are means lower rate of crossing over and thus lower possibility of getting a separation between both mutations).
You can think in a similar way for black head and blue.

The best pairing you can do is to a green split blue female. Try to get 2 or 3 clutches, by using foster parents or handraising, to get a maximal number of chicks and be able to know how it inherits and the possibility of transmission coupled to blue (like dark) or to grey.

Keep us updated

Recio

PS: Something else: if black head was not dominant but recessive and that zorro's father was DF black head and zorro's mother was split black head ..... then 50% offspring must be split. If all offspring was black head probably it is a dominant mutation and the father , may be, is homozygous (DF) for the mutation.

[javi]

Hi Recio,
Thank you for the help and the only thing that is left to do is to wait for him to be ready and look for one of the females you mention to me.
I don't have any green ringnecks but I can find one for sure with friends I just have to make sure that it is split to blue or try the other options.


Thank you.

[Recio]

Let's wait and see.

Keep us updated

Recio

[madas]

Do the birds live in an outside aviary? Or inside with bad light conditions?

Thx.

[Recio]

Do the birds live in an outside aviary? Or inside with bad light conditions?

Thx.

Hi Madas;

Are you thinking about the black-heads induced by low exposure to lighting, like in Austria? In this case there was not any offspring inheritance, and as Javi said zorro's siblings were all black head, and they were housed by different owners, that is very probably in different lighting conditions... and the black head seems to be, at least in part, regulated by hormones since the deepness of black increases reaching maturity.
Photoshop black heads have been "produced" in the past but zorro pic is of good quality and I do not see any sign of "photoshoping".

Best regards

Recio

[madas]

Do the birds live in an outside aviary? Or inside with bad light conditions?

Thx.

Hi Madas;

Are you thinking about the black-heads induced by low exposure to lighting, like in Austria? In this case there was not any offspring inheritance, and as Javi said zorro's siblings were all black head, and they were housed by different owners, that is very probably in different lighting conditions... and the black head seems to be, at least in part, regulated by hormones since the deepness of black increases reaching maturity.
Photoshop black heads have been "produced" in the past but zorro pic is of good quality and I do not see any sign of "photoshoping".

Best regards

Recio

Hi Recio,

yes this is what i was thinking of. Here are some real pictures (no photoshop) of some black headed birds.








After changing the housing conditions they all lost their black heads and greyish flight feathers and turned into
normal birds.

greetings.

madas

[Lilly]

WoW! the green is beautiful!

[Recio]

Hi Madas;

Both birds seem to be males, like "zorro". Do you know if the black head, even due to low lighting, has been described in females?

Recio

[madas]

Hi Madas;

Both birds seem to be males, like "zorro". Do you know if the black head, even due to low lighting, has been described in females?

Recio

Hi Recio,

i cant say. I only know black headed males. In bastiaans first book on the last page there is a picture of a black headed green male too.
But he turned to a normal bird at 2 to 3 years of age.

Greetings.

madas

[Recio]

Hi Madas;

I know that the possibility of black head as a new mutation (and not something due illness by low lighting conditions, vitamine deficiency, .... or photoshop working) makes "smile" most of known breeders, but I would like to develop arguments to consider this possibility:

Something to think about: why not every IRN kept in low lighting developp a black head? There are only some birds which will developp this black head (BH) but not others. We could say that these BH birds are more sensitive to lighting conditions. We could also think that this higher sensitivity depends on a hormonal mechanism ... reasons: 1) The black feathers appear in the head which colour is known to depend on the hormonal status of the bird (just male BH, BH deepness increses reaching sexual maturity,...), but they do not appear on other body feathers which colour is not regulated by the sexual status ; 2) Another IRN mutation (opaline) increasing darkness of the head acts through a hormonal mechanism; 3) The head in other psittacula displaying dark heads (Psittacula himalayana, Psittacula cyanocephala, Psittacula roseata) displays a different colouring depending on the sex of the bird.
Are there any hormonal systems depending on lighting conditions to support this hypothesis? Yes:
1: Vitamine D: activation of vitamin D depends on exposure to light. It will act mainly on Phosphore-calcium metabolism but also in immunity and fecondity.
2: Melatonin: it is secreted by the pineal gland and retinas in birds. It acts on the control of circadian rhythms ans seasonal reproduction. Its secretion is inhibited by exposure to light (it is the hormone of darkness).
There are more exemples of parrots with light "sensitivity": we all know that greys of Gabon reproduce better if kept in low lighting, ...
More reasons: the dark heads in other psittacula species shows that the underlying mechanism to produce it is present in this genus. The "trigger" to induce it could be a change in the "thresshold" of light sensitivity.

So, in abstract: low lighting would act on a hormonal mechanism (vitamin D?, melatonin?, ...) regulating the amount of melanin or the feather structure in head feathers under control of sexual steroids. BH mutants would display a change in light sensitivity allowing them to "recover" the capacity of other psittacula to produce black heads.

So, for me, the BH induced by low lighting are true mutants, but the mutation appears on the sensitivity to lighting and not "directly" on the colour. We can not longer consider that the BH is a kind of illness. If you keep together IRN displaying BH, and you make them reproduce over several generations increasing lighting slowly and selecting for reproduction only the birds with the deepest black heasds, you will finally get estable BH IRN able to keep the black head even when exposed to normal lighting.
These are the reasons for me to seriosly consider the existence of BH mutation at present (may be zorro's family) or in the very near futur.

Regards

Recio

[chicho73]

can somebody please help me with this mutation? im not sure if it will become a blackhead

[Lorenzo]

would you be able to get a mutation like that if you bred a plum head with a grey then keep breeding the offsrping of them with a pure grey?

Lorenzo

[psittacula mania]

Hello

I come to you for news of zorro, it done its completely black head now.
His historical interests me, because I own one kobalt black head which took three years in 2013 and as Zorro at the head which began to dark is 2 years and 3 years is completely black, it just a strain who gave a breeder 3 times black heads in different broods.
cordially

[madas]

Hello

I come to you for news of zorro, it done its completely black head now.
His historical interests me, because I own one kobalt black head which took three years in 2013 and as Zorro at the head which began to dark is 2 years and 3 years is completely black, it just a strain who gave a breeder 3 times black heads in different broods.
cordially

Any pics for us? If not sure how to upload please send to me: mada_s(at)ymail.com replace (at) with @.

madas

[psittacula mania]

Hello

You can find pictures on our blog

cordially

[madas]

Hello

You can find pictures on our blog

cordially

Can you provide a link to it? I don't know your blog.

[psittacula mania]

Here in attached photo, it finally it worked, I'm new to this forum and I still do not know how everything works

[madas]

Here in attached photo, it finally it worked, I'm new to this forum and I still do not know how everything works

So is there a small chance that you are related to Benjamin L'hoost??? IF true then i know your blog.

[psittacula mania]

yes, that's my son

[Johan S]

Can you share the link to the blog?

[madas]

Can you share the link to the blog?

Sure. Here you go: http://oiseaux1808.skyrock.com/1.html

[psittacula mania]

yes, this is the right link. thank you

[Ring0Neck]

No offence but for my eyes, it looks as if someone played with photoshop too much.

I had a look at all your photos and i did not see black headed in a group with other ringnecks.
could you provide such a photo/s?

Thanks

[madas]

No offence but for my eyes, it looks as if someone played with photoshop too much.

I had a look at all your photos and i did not see black headed in a group with other ringnecks.
could you provide such a photo/s?

Thanks

Believe me the pic are not photoshoped. The owner (of the birs i have posted) lives in Austria.

[Ring0Neck]

Thanks Madas,
I did not read the whole thread, just seen now your post/pics.

How strange , is there a way to explain this black head?

[madas]

Thanks Madas,
I did not read the whole thread, just seen now your post/pics.

How strange , is there a way to explain this black head?

A modification mostly (doesn't mean in all cases) caused by bad farming conditions. Means dark aviaries, not much daylight and so on.
But if i read the post of psittacula mania correct the is passing on the black head to male offspring.

madas

[Ring0Neck]

Adaptation... interesting how fast change is detected and mutates accordingly.
Theory fits the bill for the Belgium Violet also, being so dark.

Do we have any breeders in Norway? i wonder what they'll get ..

[Johan S]

Thanks Madas,
I did not read the whole thread, just seen now your post/pics.

How strange , is there a way to explain this black head?

A modification mostly (doesn't mean in all cases) caused by bad farming conditions. Means dark aviaries, not much daylight and so on.
But if i read the post of psittacula mania correct the is passing on the black head to male offspring.

madas

Thanks for the link, Madas.

I've read of these birds in the past, with some in Europe (possibly the same ones) and some in the US. But it sounds like a balanced diet and sufficient sunlight has them returning to normal in the next moult. They are still very interesting. I hope psittacula mania has some good luck in establishing them as a mutation rather than a modification, even if a mutation sensitive to certain environmental conditions.

[psittacula mania]

also have in my collection that blue turquoise whose head is mottled black and is aged 8 years