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Bronze Fallow

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Carr.birds
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Location: Bloemfontein South Africa

Bronze Fallow

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:21 pm

Forum members

I am questioning the existence of Bronze Fallow in IRN’s. Varies test the past few years with NSLino resulted in split birds instead of Bronze fallowNslino. I have tested “bronze fallow” birds imported form Europe with a number of SA “bronze fallow” and results proved to be the same fallow. Some birds used for the exercise date back to 1995 and 1999.
I can post pics if necessary. If not bronze fallow I suggest we get the correct name for this fallow.

Tienie

Johan S
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Johan S » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:30 am

Tienie, I don't think there is any doubt that the fallows you have tested aren't true a-locus fallows (i.e. bronze fallow). Unfortunately, in most species, if it is recessive, has red eyes and some change occurred in melanin, it is dubbed bronze fallow until further notice. Well, now with these tests done, I agree we can move forward to a new name for them.

However, I'm not entirely convinced that a true bronze fallow doesn't exist. Until the "dunn" fallows of Johan Goessens is properly tested to NSLino, I believe they may yet turn out to be the real thing, i.e. the a-locus bronze fallow that was incorrectly named "dunn" fallow as the name bronze fallow has already been assigned (incorrectly as well). I base this mostly on the two phenotypes that exist, the darker type and the lighter type, where the lighter type might be the BronzefallowNSLino intermediate bird. Of course, there are a lot of speculation about these birds, probably because owners aren't sharing information freely (yet). Most notably, that they are a combination between cleartail and the fallows we know as "bronze" fallow. I have some reservations about that, though. Noting the head colour in the mature male of the darker series (also present in green birds), I find it hard to believe cleartail wouldn't have cleared up those heads completely. Notice from these pictures also the difference in neckring colour, acting in exactly the same way as heterozygous NSLino in cleartail lines.

Below pictures are publicly shared on facebook by well known South African breeder, Kiepie Heroldt, so I hope it is OK if I post them here. All credit to him for making these pictures public.

Darker phenotype "dunn" fallow (possibly true homozygous bronze fallow?)
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Lighter phenotype "dunn" fallow (possibly true heterozygous bronze fallow and heterozygous NSLino?)
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Of course, I'm merely speculating as I'm stubborn to give up on bronze fallow. I don't own "dunn" fallow birds, nor have I seen them. So above is merely an academic exercise that could possibly be a piece of the overall fallow puzzle. I would love to experiment with them one day when I can afford them. Until that time, I'll admire them from afar. I could very well be wrong too, no disrespect meant to anyone owing these birds.

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madas
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by madas » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:52 am

Johan S wrote:I base this mostly on the two phenotypes that exist, the darker type and the lighter type, where the lighter type might be the BronzefallowNSLino intermediate bird.
Easy to test. Pair two light colored birds together and you should get 25% darker type, 50% lighter type and 25% NSLino birds. :D

Carr.birds
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Carr.birds » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:33 am

Hi Stefan

You have done a lot of homework on the origin of the so called "bronze fallow. Can you please share your investigations with us.

Tienie

Carr.birds
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Carr.birds » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:57 pm

Ok, wile we wait for Madas to add about the history of the so called bronze fallow I will post some pics of these birds. Imo it is a grey/brown fallow.
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Tienie

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madas
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by madas » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:10 pm

Carr.birds wrote:Hi Stefan

You have done a lot of homework on the origin of the so called "bronze fallow. Can you please share your investigations with us.

Tienie
Yeap. I will do but i must search for my records. :D

Stefan

Carr.birds
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:38 pm

Hi Tienie,

This is what i remember from my research:

There are two known sources of "bronze fallows". One is from Mr. Eyckerman in Belgium, (same source as the SA deep) and the other one is in Germany. The Belgium line was imported by South African breeder Mr Nico Theunissen in the middle 90’s from Mr Eyckerman.
Attached find a pic of a blue bronze fallow hen from this line.

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The German source got their birds from a Belgian bird breeder/dealer who was driving from Country to Country with a van full of birds. So there is a possibility (perhaps a small one) that both sources have the same origin. The German line is out of a pair 1,0 green unknown splits x 0,1 lutino (possible rec.; breeder can't remember)

The offspring looked like the birds in the following pics (breed from a pair "for sure split rec. pied"; i have my doubts; clutch of three same looking birds; one male and two females; so not sex-linked):
without flash

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with flash

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Birds from the German stock made its way to the aviaries of Mr Bastiaan. He then started his breeding program with this mutation. The results could be seen in the two books of him. There are birds with yellow heads and birds with yellow/green heads. All defined as "bronze fallow".

Here is one example with yellow/green head
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and pic of yellow head version
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History in South Africa

South African breeder Graham Oberem was introduced to Mr Langer by a German veterinarian Mr Cyril Sauer in the middle 90’s. Graham imported a bronze fallow and split bronze fallow from Germany. Graham also imported birds in the late 90’s from Mr Bastiaan. Henry Ford and M-Nick van Jaarsveldt are the other two South African breeders who imported bronze fallow birds from Mr Bastiaan in the late 90’s. Henry still owns a fair number of breeding birds and some of the original imported split birds dated ’97. M-Nick sold all his birds but Neels Roeloffze managed to buy a ’95 Bastiaan bred imported df indigo bronze fallow cock and ’95 indigo grey/bronze fallow hen.

See pic of ’95 Bastiaan bred df indigo bronze fallow owned by Neels Roeloffze
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Most of Graham Oberem’s birds are now owned by the well-known SA breeder Mr Kiepie Herholdt. It is believed by many that Kiepie owns the biggest collection of bronze fallow birds in the world, even some of the original imported split birds from Germany are part of his collection. Attached some of his blue and blueturq bronze fallow birds.
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Various remarks by SA breeders and Mr Bastiaan that we are/not dealing with the same fallow mutation caused chaos in the market. In an effort to sort out the bronze fallow mutation in South African a group of passionate bronze fallow breeders joined hands. They started a breeding program to proof if the 2 sources are both bronze fallow. Various tests with both Bastiaan and Eyckerman birds proofed that it is the same fallow. Even the oldest pair a ’99 grey/bronze fallow (Nico Theunissen) and ’95 indigo grey/bronze fallow (Bastiaan) produced a blue bronze fallow baby. Unfortunately all tests between bronze fallow and NSLino proofed no allelic relationship when only split/nslino/bronze fallow babies were bred from 2 different pairs and therefore can’t be bronze fallow. An appropriate name change is therefore suggested and members of this Forum are requested to join discussions for the name change.

A special word of thanks to South African breeders Messrs Graham Oberem, Kiepie Herholdt, Henry Ford, Neels Roeloffze, Nico Theunissen, Johan Schoeman, Moejahied Taliep, Hugo Niebuhr, Chris Jacobs and German breeder Mr Langer for sharing their knowledge, pictures and breeding results with us.

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:41 am

Tienie, Stefan Et Al... Thanks a lot for your efforts to put this valuable info together.

I noticed the 95 Bastiaan bred df indigo bronze fallow owned by Neels Roeloffze only bird with red eyes as we would expect from a fallow.

Could it be that all the others are different but Bastiaan bred bird to be Bronze Fallow?

Any info of breeding results from that particular bird?


I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know

Johan S
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Johan S » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:43 am

Thanks Tienie/Madas, that covers a lot about the mutation. Although these birds have a reputation as terrible breeders, I can confirm that good progress is being made to stabilise the population. A lot of effort has gone into introducing more genetic variety in their once extremely limited gene pool. A few years ago you would never hear about a 'bronze fallow' hen breeding at one year of age, nor a cock at two years. However, we've had both happen and Tienie can also share such success stories. Don't get me wrong, there are still plenty of them out there with the normal problems, but there is definite progress.

As for the name change, I've shared my opinion on that in the second post in this topic. I am not to much in a hurry to have it changed until the other fallows have been tested with NSLino.

The only thing I can add are some more photos:
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Unfortunately, this young cock was killed by a violet hen. He is out of the green hen above.
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A blue hen bred by Kiepie Heroldt
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Two stunning birds at other breeders:
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And then something different, or the same, floating around in the "bronze fallow" gene pool.
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Carr.birds
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Carr.birds » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:30 am

Ben

Pic taken of '95 df indigo bronze fallow with flash. I own a son of this cock and he was paired to a Nico Theunissen blue bronze fallow. The pair gave me a blue and indigoblue bronze fallow and 2 blue/bronze fallow babies.

"bronze fallow" birds don't display a similar red eye as clearheaded fallow. There is also a possibility that we are dealing with a faded mutation. Basicly the same as fallow but don't keep red eye when matured.

Tienie

Tartan ringnecks
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Tartan ringnecks » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:06 pm

Can I ask has any one noticed a difference in split bronze fallows as
My to split birds have a lighter look to them.
Kev

Johan S
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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by Johan S » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:04 pm

Kev, when you look at the shape of the head and listen to the sound of their call, I sometimes can not stop wondering if this mutation isn't rather a transmutation from an african species. I mention this, because you sometimes pick this up in split birds with close observation.

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Re: Bronze Fallow

Post by bridgey » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:06 pm

so, is there such differences as Ashen, Dun, Bronze, and Pale in IRNs ?

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