different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

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*kimi*
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different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:21 pm

Hi all mutation lovers. I'm going to be purchasing a pair of violet Ringnecks soon, & hope to be able to produce some df violet birds. I then want to pair the df violet with either cobolt or mauve, but not sure which one. I want to achieve really pur-pully purple birds. I read that df voilet with mauve achieves a deep purple but it doesn't show pictures or progency results, or what the name of the mutation would be. I'm guessing its just called df violet mauve. If any know what the actual pairing results of this combo would Be that would be great to know.
I also read on here that white tail birds have darker body colour than solid colours. If this is true do whitetails have white heads also?, as I don't like the Whitehead, I prefer colored head birds.
I'm also confused about the colour violet blue. Is this just some peoples term for violet? Or a whole seperate mutation? Any help much appreciated.

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 am

You may be some what dissappointed in a DF Violet Mauve as it is pretty much a Grey looking bird. The bird you are after would be a DF Violet Blue Cobalt. To breed one of these you will need a Violet Cobalt and and either a DF Violet Blue or a Violet Blue.

The Violet Blue refers to the Violet in the Blue series and Violet Green to the Violet in the Green series. Violet Blue is your normal Violet bird with the Violet colour.

The Cock birds in the white tails or Cleartails do have a white head.

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:55 am

Thank you for that, It hepls to have great people on here with a wealth of info.

Just a couple more questions If you dont mind;

So when breeders have for sale a violet ringneck, it really means violet blue?

To breed violet cobolt, would I need a violet blue and a cobolt?

And to breed for violet blue; I already have a blue, but I'm not sure If it's a boy or girl yet, If It's a boy, I would need to breed him with a violet green/ blue. Is this right? And If a girl, I would have to have a visual violet blue just to breed violet blue from her,?
I also was told the parents were yellow and blue, so he could be slpit for lutino if a boy. So, If he is a boy (blue/lutino, what would the progeny results be If I paired him with a violet green/ blue?

thanks again for the advice. ;)

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:30 pm

Most times when you see mentioned a Violet Ringneck it will mean Violet Blue.

Yes Violet Blue to Cobalt can breed Violet Cobalt. 25% Violet Blue 25% Blue 25% Cobalt 25% Violet Cobalt.

The Blue bird you already have if it is either sex you could breed to a Violet Blue and get 50% Violet Blue and %50 Blue. If it is a male and split INO the results will change.

If it is a Male and is split Ino then I wouldnt use it because the Ino will mask Violet in the chicks and slow down your results.

From Blue/INO Male and Violet Green Female

Males
25.0% green /blue ino
25.0% green violet(sf) /blue ino
25.0% green /blue
25.0% green violet(sf) /blue

Females
25.0% ino /blue
25.0% violet(sf) ino /blue
25.0% green /blue
25.0% green violet(sf) /blue
Last edited by rod038 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:26 pm

Thanks again for that,

Ok, so looks like I'm better off not using my lil' friend for breeding If he's a boy, but if a girl she will go well with violet blue

I have tried to look for cobalt ringnecks and am not sure how much they go for, but will keep looking.

Just so I know, can I ask what does it mean when you say albino would mask violet in the chicks?

Also, once a violet cobalt is paired with a violet blue, what would the % of df violet blue cobalt be, well what would the progeny be?

cheers,
Kimi

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:01 pm

In Australia Cobalts go for between $600 and $800 for a young bird. Where abouts are you located?

Albino masking Violet means that the Albino bird bred could also be Violet but you cant tell because it will appear White. The only way to tell is when you breed it with another bird that is not a Violet and if it breeds Violet young then it is a Violet Ino. Not a desirable bird for this reason. Grey will also mask Violet.

Violet Cobalt to Violet Blue can give 25% DF Cobalt Blue.

These birds can be difficult to tell apart from looking at them. For instance a DF Violet and a Cobalt Violet can look very similar. A Violet Blue and a DF Violet can look similar under certain light. The true test is what they breed when you pair them up.

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:51 pm

I live In Australia in Qld.

Ok, so as young in the nest, the chicks will be hard to tell apart. So being quite similar in appearance, out of the violet cobalt or the df violet, which would you say would be more nicer purple looking?

Do you think that it would be satisfying to have bred a violet cobalt, or do you think it would be worth the effort to then try for the df violet cobalt, or is there really not that much difference?

Do you know the best breeders around Qld? Iv'e heard of coomera avairies, which seem pretty good. And Iv'e seen the website for 'our ringnecks' which also look to be quality breeders, although there in Vic.,

If you know of any others it would be good to know,

thanks,
Kimi.

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:45 pm

Yes they are very similar. In the nest the Violet Cobalt and DF Violets will stand out from the normal Violet as a much deeper violet colour as they grow and you look at them in different light they can appear the same.

It can be satisfying breeding them but you need to know what you are breeding. Not alot of people breed them because of the problems of telling them apart. They would mainly be used to add Violet and Cobalt to Pieds and Cleartails. The value of the bird is not so much in its appearance but what it can breed for you.

For instance a DF Violet when bred to a Normal Blue will breed all Violet Blues. So therefore you can breed a DF Violet to a Blue Pied and breed all Violet Pieds or Violet Blues.

I don't know of any Breeders in Qld. I am in NSW and know a few here.

Heres a photo of a DF Violet. 2 Violet Blues and a Blue. The camera makes them stand out as different to what the naked eye sees.
Image

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:48 pm

Cobalt about 6 months old
Image
Violet Blue Mature Cock and Hen
Image

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Mauve and a Cobalt. These are not my birds. Just showing you these to give you an idea of what I mean when you add the Mauve to Violet.
Image
Normal Grey and a Violet Mauve
Image

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madas
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by madas » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:32 am

rod038 wrote: ( it cant be split Lutino but can be split Albino because its Blue )
In a genetically point of view this isn't correct. Such a male is always split for ino and not split for lutino or albino because
lutino and albino are terms for phenotypes. Lutino for a green series ino bird and albino for a blue series bird. A bird can't be split for a phenotype. Your statement can indicate that if a such male is paired to any female then this pair can only produce albinos but no lutinos. But this isn't correct at all. See your results below. The male paired to a green series bird (violetgreen) throws lutinos and no albinos.
rod038 wrote: From Blue/INO Male and Violet Green Female

Males
25.0% green /blue ino
25.0% green violet(sf) /blue ino
25.0% green /blue
25.0% green violet(sf) /blue

Females
25.0% ino /blue
25.0% violet(sf) ino /blue
25.0% green /blue
25.0% green violet(sf) /blue

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:58 pm

wstobart@bigpond.com
This guy has some Cobalts, Violet Cobalts, Violets and a Violet Mauve for sale. I am noit to sure where he is in Austrlia but he Freights birds.

Molossus2
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Molossus2 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:28 pm

Kimi,
I am also trying to Breed the deepest purple bird and introduce this color depth into selected mutations. I suggest you try to get :
violet cobalt to breed dbl factor violet cobalts
Dbl factor deep blues paired to the above with the aim of breeding a dbl factor violet deep blue(dbl factor)cobalt.
I am in South Africa and I am importing a deep blue to breed exactly this , ultimately.
This may take some time though and good luck.
Regards,

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:17 pm

Thank you all for all the info, I know what you mean about putting that colour into other mutations. I personally love the opaline & pied, although, for the price I could buy an amazon parrot lol! But mutation breeding would have to be the most addictive & interesting aspect of breeding parrots in my view besides breeding rare/endangered birds.

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:57 pm

I forgot to ask, molossus2, what is the price of a violet cobalt? and a Dbl factor deep blues, is this the same as a df cobalt? how much do they cost?

thnx,

kimi.

Johan S
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Johan S » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:24 am

Molossus2 wrote:Dbl factor deep blues paired to the above with the aim of breeding a dbl factor violet deep blue(dbl factor)cobalt.
Hi Molossus, what do you mean with deep blue? Is it a blue bird with a single or double dark factor (i.e. cobalt or mauve), or something different?

Although I'm yet to see a bird with a double violet factor and a single dark factor, I believe that this bird might be the best contender for the most "purple" bird, along with the double violet factor bird. From the violet cobalt (single violet, single dark factor) birds that I've seen, it appears as if the addition of the dark factor already introduces a shade of "grey", so I'm a bit sceptical that a double violet double dark factor bird would differ significantly from a normal grey bird, just like a double dark factor (mauve) bird looks mostly like the grey mutation, only slightly lighter with a tinge of blue. Just my humble opinion as a first time poster, but I don't want to ruffle feathers. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, though.

rod038
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by rod038 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:35 am

Some prices from Petlink in Australia

COBALT M $700
COBALT /CINNAMON M $700
COBALT VIOLET M $900
COBALT VIOLET F $1000
VIOLET F $350
VIOLET /CINNAMON M $350
VIOLET MAUVE M $2500

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:46 am

Thannx Rod for the prices, and johan, your saying that you reckon cobalt x df violet would be a better purple?, I see what your suggesting, It sounds interesting, see what the experts say,

also to jog my memory,

blue x df violet gives, all violets, so does that mean that blue x df cobalt gives all cobalt?

blue x cobalt gives 50% blue 50% cobalt

blue x violet cobalt -?

cobalt x violet gives 25% Violet 25% Blue 25% Cobalt 25% Violet Cobalt.

cobalt x violet cobalt gives ?

Violet x violet cobalt can give 25% DF Cobalt &?

violet cobalt x violet cobalt gives?

Molossus2
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Molossus2 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:46 am

Hi Johan,
The deep blue is another dark factor blue aka the oz cobalt. When paired together the resulting dbl factor is a darker than cobalt(not violet or mauve). I suspect this mutation has occurred here in South Africa but is lost among the rest of the known cobalt mutation. The combination of dbl factor deep blue and dbl factor violet = dbl factor violet dbl factor deep blue. Paired to a dbl factor cobalt ie mauve will result in a spectacular bird.

*kimi*
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by *kimi* » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:04 pm

Would love to see a pic of the oz cobalt

Molossus2
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Molossus2 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:32 pm

I will checkout a site where You can see all three dark factor birds ie cobalt,oz cobalt and violet.
Regards.

Johan S
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Johan S » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:27 am

Thanks for clearing that up, Molossus. I have not giving much thought or credibility to the deep factor/Oz cobalt, mostly because a large part of the international fraternity have not recognized the mutation as one different from the normal dark factor. Having said that, I've spent some time over the weekend and looked up another board where it seems as if this mutation is indeed making headway in proving its uniqueness (from examples where deep and violet birds were test bred). However, I have not found anything conclusive where deep and dark factors were combined in a breeding pair where it can be shown that the mutations are indeed different. Which is ironic, as I would think that the first step would be to show that deep is different from dark, and then that it differs from violet. If it is indeed the case that we can breed DF deep birds that does not tend to "grey over" like their DF dark counterparts, we are certainly in for exciting new mutation combinations. Looking forward to those pictures!

Molossus2
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Molossus2 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:19 am

Kiki,Johan, the site you need is www.fabulous parrots.com
You will find pics of the oz cobalt In single and dbl factor against violet and cobalt for comparison.
This opens a lot of combination possibilities.
Regards,

CMG ringneck MADD
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by CMG ringneck MADD » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:38 am

Hi all, I'm new to this site and have 2 violets a normal blue a skyblue a pastel violet lacewing, I also have one darker looking blue type of bird who is much darker than the normal blue but looks a bit lighter than the violets, I was told cobalt alot of times but i don't think so, I'm not sure, would you be able to help?

trabots
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by trabots » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:03 am

I have not found anything conclusive where deep and dark factors were combined in a breeding pair where it can be shown that the mutations are indeed different.
Johan, Ron has bred Deep Cobalt his website at www.fabulousparrots.com has images. See for yourself, the bird is as dark as any other combo and is not Mauve. The more important proof is that DF Deep and DF Dark have totally different phentypes.

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:17 am

Willy,
Johan posted those posts on
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012

only the last post was today's

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Johan S » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:37 am

trabots wrote:
I have not found anything conclusive where deep and dark factors were combined in a breeding pair where it can be shown that the mutations are indeed different.
Johan, Ron has bred Deep Cobalt his website at http://www.fabulousparrots.com has images. See for yourself, the bird is as dark as any other combo and is not Mauve. The more important proof is that DF Deep and DF Dark have totally different phentypes.
Hi Willy, like Ben pointed out, this discussion is more than a year old. :) A lot of new information have come to light, esp. your input and pictures. We have also since shown that we can't test deep in SA, because we have something with a different coloured main tail feather.

I have underlined a part in your quote. What you suggest is a valid proof to show they are different mutations, but it doesn't prove what I have attempted (very poorly, I admit!) to suggest, which is to test whether they are alleles of the same locus. Homozygous pallid and homozygous SL ino also have a totally different phenotype, yet they are alleles of the same locus. We still need clarity on the breeding outcome of a deep dark blue to a blue. Does this pairing breed deep and dark birds exclusively, or are blue and deep blue birds also present in the offspring?

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Johan S » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:05 am

Johan S wrote:
Molossus2 wrote:Dbl factor deep blues paired to the above with the aim of breeding a dbl factor violet deep blue(dbl factor)cobalt.
Hi Molossus, what do you mean with deep blue? Is it a blue bird with a single or double dark factor (i.e. cobalt or mauve), or something different?

Although I'm yet to see a bird with a double violet factor and a single dark factor, I believe that this bird might be the best contender for the most "purple" bird, along with the double violet factor bird. From the violet cobalt (single violet, single dark factor) birds that I've seen, it appears as if the addition of the dark factor already introduces a shade of "grey", so I'm a bit sceptical that a double violet double dark factor bird would differ significantly from a normal grey bird, just like a double dark factor (mauve) bird looks mostly like the grey mutation, only slightly lighter with a tinge of blue. Just my humble opinion as a first time poster, but I don't want to ruffle feathers. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, though.
LOL, would you look at that. My first post! :lol:

We can scratch that now, I was wrong about a cobalt violet(df) being our best contender for the most "purple" bird. My suspicion was right that adding too many structural factors saturate the colours and looking close to a grey/mauve. I didn't realise it would happen quite so soon, though. :D

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:25 am

LOL

I wonder what mine was...... :?: I was still a dreamer so it would go s-thing like..."What do i get if i pair this n that?????" and why? why not this?..or that? :lol:

trabots
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by trabots » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:21 pm

We still need clarity on the breeding outcome of a deep dark blue to a blue. Does this pairing breed deep and dark birds exclusively, or are blue and deep blue birds also present in the offspring?
My apologies for not noting the age of the post I replied to. As far as proving Deep is not an allele of Violet, I have done so. My EmeraldBlue (poss Emerald /Parblue) x Deep Violet Blue produced birds which were neither Deep nor Violet. Ron will be pairing his Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue to a Blue bird of some kind this coming season. Anything other than Deep or Violet in TurquoiseBlue or Blue will confirm Deep and Dark are not alleles.

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Johan S » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:15 am

trabots wrote:
We still need clarity on the breeding outcome of a deep dark blue to a blue. Does this pairing breed deep and dark birds exclusively, or are blue and deep blue birds also present in the offspring?
My apologies for not noting the age of the post I replied to. As far as proving Deep is not an allele of Violet, I have done so. My EmeraldBlue (poss Emerald /Parblue) x Deep Violet Blue produced birds which were neither Deep nor Violet. Ron will be pairing his Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue to a Blue bird of some kind this coming season. Anything other than Deep or Violet in TurquoiseBlue or Blue will confirm Deep and Dark are not alleles.
No worries, Willy! :D

You are right in having already confirmed the DF deep phenotype and the non-allelic interaction with violet. Great effort and much respect to you for that. The underlined part is excellent news! It is one of the few outstanding pieces of the puzzle in terms of the well known structural mutations. Interaction with grey would be interesting. The mutation in SA confused for deep would also be interesting. Is the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue 2011 or older? Would be very nice if we have an answer this year already.

CMG ringneck MADD
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by CMG ringneck MADD » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:59 pm

hi all, could anyone help me regarding my previous question in my last post? also i know ron he only lives 1 hour away and i see him sometimes at the markets and he has some of the nicest colours, thats where i bought my pastel violet lacewing from, any back to the question regarding my blue? i will post a pic soon but its saying im not allowed at the moment, maybe becasue im new! thanks in advance :mrgreen:

bridgey
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by bridgey » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:09 pm

Can someone explain what visual colours would be chit a cobalt cock to a violet cobalt hen?
I know I get blue,
Blue violet (violet)
Dd blue (mauve?)
Dd blue violet ( grey steel colour ?)
D blue (cobalt)
D blue violet ( mauve too?)

Any help appreciated :-)

Mikesringnecks
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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:48 pm

Hi Kimi
After that debate I guess you now know that it wold be a good idea to ad one or two Deep genes to your DF Violet Cobalt target to hopefully get an even more purple looking bird.
On the Cleartail front (WHWT) they don't have darker body feathering , if anything it is very slightly lighter but people argue about it, so whatever it is it is a slight change in body colour.
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:43 pm

All this debate on theorys on how to achieve a rich violet or violet cobalt combination with the desired morph that isn't leaning towards grey or mud is invigorating .How ever one ommission from this debate is the morph MaDas has posted recently from Europe that was being called Royal blue ,I find these birds stunning and consider them to be worthy as a contender as being amongst the best in this area. :D

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

Post by Brunoplsantos » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:13 am

Hi , I was reading this interesting topic and I have a question:
I have a male cleartail violet cobalt turquoise/opalino and a female opalino violet/cleartail.
Can I get a really opalino purple cleartail ring neck?p

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Re: different mutation terminology & how to achieve purple?

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