I'm very pleased to hear you are evolving in your approach to bird handling and the advice you are putting out there. It is unfortunate that other sites appear to have copied your old article, and "taking" bites is still promoted on some ringneck social media groups. Even though there much more effective ways of dealing with unwanted behaviour.
Why thank you! I think it's something we all need to be doing in the parrot community--even the "experts.". ;)
As you have now stated that the piece that I quoted from your website is no longer in line with your current views, I am more than slightly perplexed on what you now regard as "bluffing".
Again, you're nitpicking Claire. I never stated the article was completely wrong, just a bit dated. In fact, the part that you quoted I agree completely with.
It appears that I am not communicating my point clearly, or you may be constructing ideas which you think apply to me. I am not denying that any creature is incapable of aggression. I have consistently stated that one should watch and respond to a bird's body language. That a pet owner is best served by analysing the situation which elicited the behaviour. This allows them to avoid, minimise and/or modify the behaviour.
Claire, I never said that you believed that ringnecks don't exhibit aggressive behavior. I simply used the example to perhaps persuade you that bluffing might be an aggressive behavior that's natural to ringnecks. Sometimes people don't want to believe certain traits about their pets because we humans tend to distort reality. For example, someone who says a chimp is very loving then rips someone's face off, or a tiger who has turned on its owner.
I have not heard of hens killing their mates in free ranging situations. This trait is not unknown in several types of parrot kept in captivity. I have read some evidence that forced pairings and restricted space is thought to be implicated in this. There are several behaviours in captive breed parrots that are not shown in wild parrots, feather plucking for example.
I've not heard of parrots killing their mates either in the wild. In fact, this might be something only captive birds to. I never said it was something naturally occurring in wild ringnecks.
You have to remember captivity is highly unnatural to ringnecks, so that being said, these birds will adapt and change their behavior. A bird who is not liked can easily get killed as it cannot escape cage bars.
There have been several studies on empathy in non human animals that indicate species studied show empathetic behaviour towards conspecifics. Please do not construe my statement to mean that I expect my parrots to provide a shoulder for me to cry on if my boyfriend dumps me. There are evolutionary benefits in altruism in some instances. It is a subject that requires further study and I'm watching it closely.
Cool! I would love to read them! Make sure to push a few links my way! Again, I think this goes back to me using ringneck aggression as a means to help explain overall ringneck behavior. Perhaps you mistook my response?
I've already answered a few of these questions for you, but since there is so much text moving back and forth and you believe I'm not being clear, I'll gladly re-answer.
These questions are still relevant:
1) Did you get a chance watch the videos I posted? The ringnecks in those videos clearly display similiar postures at the first approach of the humans hand to what you have described, from what I can tell. Is that correct?
I did get a chance to watch them. I don't think there is anything wrong with either of the videos you provided. I think you're being critical of these other owners because they are not along your lines of ringneck keeping.
Here is what I said in a previous reply about the first situation..I'll quote it for you in case you missed it.
Also, the examples you provided don't seem detrimental to ringneck handling during the bluffing stage. The first example lovingly showcased a lady working through her ringnecks aggressive behavior. I know you've heard the term gentle dominance before, correct? If not, check it out. Though it may be an older concept, I strongly believe it works in conjunction with positive reinforcement. I do agree that some training methods are outdated such as the height issue you mentioned, but as much as you and I agree it's a dated training method, I know others will agree that it is in fact a reality. I guess we can't win.
As for the second video, I see nothing wrong with it. The young lady did not ambush her bird and scare it. We can tell through its body language as it was preening while she was talking to it and filming. In fact, I took that video piece as the bird knowing she was in the room and only reacted that way once she tried to touch her bird.
Yes, she could have bribed the bird with a treat but she did not. Her intentions were not evil nor forceful. She came from a loving human perspective and tried to sweet talk the bird. Being touched by a human hand is unnatural and maybe the bird mistook that wiggling finger as something aggressive--it's hyper agitated anyways during this bluffing stage.
In the 2nd example I might add, I would think you would be happy as the young lady assessed the overall behavior of her bird then lets the bird choose to be handled--I don't get why you're upset? I believe this is absolutely along your lines of thinking. Didn't you just tell me the owner should watch the bird's behavior before handing the bird to avoid getting bitten? The owner did just that.
So you asked what I would have done? Had it been me, I would have used gentile dominance to ask the bird to step up. If that did not work, I would have distracted the bird, or bribed it with a grape/treat. I believe this is important during the bluffing stage because the bird is learning "flock" rules.
Had it been you, you would have used positive reinforcement to encourage the bird to step up, and if the bird refused, you would let it be. Because in your eyes, the bird does not feel like being bothered. I am I correct? I'm not saying your way is bad, nor am I'm judging it, but I strongly believe there are many avenues to dealing with a bluffing ringneck.
Again, the young lady never did anything wrong--she was simply doting over her bird and when the bird did not want her around--she backed away.
It seems, and I might be wrong, but this is what I have come to conclude from our lengthy discussion. If an owner is not in compliance with only practicing positive reinforcement training it upsets you-- our brings about a great deal of frustration. But, I say this frustration is like a mother who gives her child sugar and another mother who refuses to. What's right for you is not right for others I always say. Every bird is different, every situation, every trainer, and every environment.
For example, taking an untame ringneck into a quiet room and working with it, or clipping a bird's wings to make it more dependent upon you then letting them regrow, using positive reinforcement to convince the bird you're a friend--they all work--the end result is usually a bird who bonds to its owner. You have to remember Claire, these tactics have worked in the past, but because you are a huge advocate for only positive reinforcement, and so am I, there are other paths to achieving a tame ringneck.
I agree positive reinforcement is amazing and I'm not denying that! Heck, It even works on goldfish! I'm just saying logically, we can't discard those other tactics as I've seen them work first hand, that's all.
2) In the videos I have shared above, initially the parrot reacts and then retreats slightly.
The parrots escalate their posturing to lunging forward and biting after continued approach and withdrawl of the hand.
What is your take on this?
My take is simple, I'm a huge advocate for gentile dominance--this means asking the bird to step up without a treat. Over time the bird will come to understand household rules and will do so without thinking, or making a big issue about it. Asking the bird to step up is not aggressive and is a perfect example of gentile dominance.
Here was a blurb from my previous responses.
Now, I think where we can agree to disagree is that in your eyes asking the bird to step up is deemed "aggressive." This I have to disagree with you. I believe this is a basic fundamental behavior that should be mastered while the baby is being socialized. Asking the bird to step up is hardly aggressive, and I'm a firm believer it should be mastered without a reward.
3) What is the most common behavioural response you have observed from adult birds confronted by a juvenile that is showing the described posture?
I believed I answered this in the thread too in Missk's response and yours.
While watching many of them, the babies seemed skittish and aggressive while competing with the adult birds for food. If a bird got too close to their portion of food many of the babies quickly reacted by opening their beaks and raising their back feathers. Most of the adult birds moved away; however, some of the more aggressive females had no problem standing up to some of the aggressive behavior exhibited by the juveniles.
But back to what I was saying, many of the adult birds quickly scurried away when presented with bluffing juveniles--with the exception of highly aggressive females. The only time I could see this behavior being an appeasement would be if it were directed towards juveniles and their parents (their parents self-sacrificing their needs for their babies). But, it was not, as the younger birds were reacting to all other flock mates in the same manner.
Just food for thought Claire, again, I think you're trying to find a loophole or something. I don't know what else to tell you, except that I'm a firm believer that bluffing is not a myth. I think this is a topic we have to agree to disagree on.
I think I've made my point clear and we seem to be running in circles. sorry for the typos...i did not re-read as I'm tired and it's late.
Cheers, ;)
IMRAN-C