It seems that clicker training is being recommended here for a multitude of problems some of which I can guarantee won't work . When a person takes in an adult bird which has either come from a bad situation or was a breeder in the past, NO MATTER WHICH SPECIES, the first thing that should be told to that person is the fact that the bird comes along with*history and or baggage*. Much of this history is permanent and will never leave the bird's personality no matter how much you click a device at it. Such a person has posted about their new addition ..a mature adult bird who was also a breeder that had a mate and I've yet to see anyone tell or give this person a well rounded complete picture of taking in a bird that has that type of history. Telling a person to do certain things with devices without telling the person the consequences that might occur is being simply irresponsible. Who knows, maybe everyone here only has young birds who are now in their first home, but that picture doesn't apply to preowned breeder birds, especially birds that are no longer with their mate. Much more important with a pre owned bird is the act of trust and that doesn't come from a device. Call that putting the cart before the horse. Clicker training doesn't cure biting. A bird will bite when you least expect it. There is no easy fix for that type of problem. Clicker training is not used for stepping up lessons. There's a person here who I think is named Donna and she makes good points about birds doing or should I say not doing tricks. Aggressive birds are tamed, not trained so that they become a part of the household. That too so no easy task. A person who is looking for short cuts for many situations loses the natural bond that clicker training doesn't provide. Hand to hand contact is necessary from day one. Clicker training doesn't stop squawking. If clicker training DID stop that then loads of conure owners would be carrying around a clicker all day long.
Someone here hopes that what she says won't be offensive to people with what she says to do with a problem bird ( use of a clicker). No, she's not being offensive, just irresponsible by suggesting to people that clicker training is the right thing to do simply because professional animal trainers use clicker training for their birds and others use whistles for marine life.. Obviously, this person hasn't dealt with different types of problems that come along with a preowned bird.
Professional Handlers---First of all, the person doesn't bother to mention the extensive training regimen the handlers have to go through when learning how to use clicker training and more importantly, these professional handlers must first learn how to *handle* the bird. The magic words here are *professional handlers*. Just as this person Donna has large birds, so do I have large birds in all stages of tameness and untameness and if they were approached with devices, any taming would go out the window quickly. Clicker training can only be done with a bird who has already developed a deep unaggressive connection and trust with the owner and then, clicker training can used for controlled actions such as flying back and forth from place to place on cue and other basic functions. Telling a person to go to a clickefr site who's main forte is advertising can be equated with telling a person to do whatever a well known parrot author who insists that they're right in whatever they print. Many authors.....lots of information that can only be classified as generalized and sometimes, just plain FALSE.
To the newbies out there who are trying to make contact with their bird...leave the devices alone until that connection is completed and understand that it's not a quick process to complete.
The Use of Clicker Training
Moderator: Mods
The Use of Clicker Training
Last edited by Petey on Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Julie
Sadly, it's a number of different threads here in the Behavior/Training section. All are basically new posts. If you look hard enough you'll see them and i don't wanna mention names but there seems to be a person who puts clicker training on a very high platform which caused me to post because I'm familiar with dealing with birds that have different tendencies of things that make people edgy and unsure of their birds. I'm not a fan of making a bird roll over and play dead or other silly things that can be seen in petting zoos but that's just the way I feel. The important thing here is the subject I'm referring to in my post which people should seriously think about.
Sadly, it's a number of different threads here in the Behavior/Training section. All are basically new posts. If you look hard enough you'll see them and i don't wanna mention names but there seems to be a person who puts clicker training on a very high platform which caused me to post because I'm familiar with dealing with birds that have different tendencies of things that make people edgy and unsure of their birds. I'm not a fan of making a bird roll over and play dead or other silly things that can be seen in petting zoos but that's just the way I feel. The important thing here is the subject I'm referring to in my post which people should seriously think about.
I'm having difficulty understanding your guys' point of view. I agree clicker training cannot be used for everything, but like previously stated, a clicker is the same as a whistle, praise, etc. They are all "bridges." Why is there such a negative association with a clicker? The idea is to use as many reinforcers as possible to encourage the desired behavior. Thus, many people use clicker, praise and treats. The most imperative portion of operant conditioning is IMMEDIATE reinforcement and the very moment the desired behavior occurs. This can easily be achieved by things such as a click, whistle or praise.The whistle and clicker being the most consistent. The idea, of coarse, is to eventually "phase out" any reinforcers. This is not something that is achieved over night like pointed out in the previous post and should not be seen as an "easy fix."
Donna, in another post you stated that you don't train birds, you tame and socialize them. You do realize that they are all synonymous? You are shaping their behavior. Just like we don't say that we train our kids; we teach them. Same thing.
I totally see your point of view and why you don't want to train "tricks" but doesn't this provide enrichment?
Furthermore, many people do not fully understand operant conditioning/clicker training and thus do not use it correctly, making the learning proccess more difficult also mentioned above).
As far as treating birds as wild animals, they are wild animals; or atleast are not domesticated in the sense that we think of. I agree that it is crucial to learn the animals natural behavior and use that knowledge when teaching. Obviously some of you are a little irritated, but I would seriously like to have an open conversation about this and get everyones point of view so I can learn from some of you guys' methods. I feel my bird is doing well with the dreaded clicker. Although I DID NOT use this method when teaching my bird to step-up and do not use this method to try and curb screaming (not sure how that'd work).
I guess what I'm saying is that, to me, you guys are saying the same thing just in different ways and I do not fully understand what exactly is the problem. Is it clicker traing with birds, or people not fully understanding the whole process?
For the record, if it will make any of my points more valid, I am curently working on a master's in ethology and have had experience training a myriad of animals, using all kinds of methods, including clickers.
*Fiona is not a hand-raised-only one home bird and when I got her she was terrified of people.
Donna, in another post you stated that you don't train birds, you tame and socialize them. You do realize that they are all synonymous? You are shaping their behavior. Just like we don't say that we train our kids; we teach them. Same thing.
I totally see your point of view and why you don't want to train "tricks" but doesn't this provide enrichment?
Furthermore, many people do not fully understand operant conditioning/clicker training and thus do not use it correctly, making the learning proccess more difficult also mentioned above).
As far as treating birds as wild animals, they are wild animals; or atleast are not domesticated in the sense that we think of. I agree that it is crucial to learn the animals natural behavior and use that knowledge when teaching. Obviously some of you are a little irritated, but I would seriously like to have an open conversation about this and get everyones point of view so I can learn from some of you guys' methods. I feel my bird is doing well with the dreaded clicker. Although I DID NOT use this method when teaching my bird to step-up and do not use this method to try and curb screaming (not sure how that'd work).
I guess what I'm saying is that, to me, you guys are saying the same thing just in different ways and I do not fully understand what exactly is the problem. Is it clicker traing with birds, or people not fully understanding the whole process?
For the record, if it will make any of my points more valid, I am curently working on a master's in ethology and have had experience training a myriad of animals, using all kinds of methods, including clickers.
*Fiona is not a hand-raised-only one home bird and when I got her she was terrified of people.
Please look taming and training up in the dictionary. They do not mean the same.
Yes I tame birds. Have you ever handled a cockatoo that was physically and mentally abused and is terrified of any human contact? Now go stick a piece of food and a clicker in it's face and see what kind of reaction you get.
I'm not against anyone that whats to train their birds to do different tricks but it makes me concerned that someone would try to tame a bird using the clicker method when the bird is terrified of everything. The step up command is the first part of taming, getting the bird used to your hand, not a towel not a stick, your hand. I don't feel that I need to train my birds to do tricks just to keep them stimulated, trick training is for human entertainment not the birds. You don't see them shooting baskets or rolling over in the wild. I am not shaping a behavior, their behavior is already there, all I'm doing is getting the bird back to trusting human contact again to where they are a happy loving family member.
Donna
Yes I tame birds. Have you ever handled a cockatoo that was physically and mentally abused and is terrified of any human contact? Now go stick a piece of food and a clicker in it's face and see what kind of reaction you get.
I'm not against anyone that whats to train their birds to do different tricks but it makes me concerned that someone would try to tame a bird using the clicker method when the bird is terrified of everything. The step up command is the first part of taming, getting the bird used to your hand, not a towel not a stick, your hand. I don't feel that I need to train my birds to do tricks just to keep them stimulated, trick training is for human entertainment not the birds. You don't see them shooting baskets or rolling over in the wild. I am not shaping a behavior, their behavior is already there, all I'm doing is getting the bird back to trusting human contact again to where they are a happy loving family member.
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
First of all, you are obviously upset and I am sorry that I upset you. Like I said, I am honestly and genuinely trying to see your point of view. I have
not worked with aggressive cockatoos, but have worked with aggressive macaws, vultures and other, smaller birds. I never meant to give you the impression that I was condoning "sticking a clicker in their face." I do understand what is is like to be around a bird that is scared of everything and like I said, I agree you can't use clicker training for everything. Moreover, if this is the case, isn't it just as frightening to have some giant "giving praise." You have to encourage a positive association with the clicker, just like you have to do with your praise. Obviously, "the behavior" is not there if they aren't socialized. You are teaching the bird that they do not need to be afraid of you. You are training them. It is not natural for a bird to be completely comfortable with a human. We are predators to them. True, birds to not "do tricks" in the wild, but they are also flying around and interacting with a much more complex enviroment than in our living rooms. And yes, it is entertaining to teach a bird tricks. I think this keeps owner engaged and the bird gets attention and I believe this helps strengthen the relationship. If you read my other post, I explain I let Fiona walk away from training whenever she likes. I also sense a bit of anthropomorphizing. Again, I did not mean to suggest your points are not valid or to upset you in anyway. The only reason I mentioned my backround was I was afraid I would get "I've been doing this for x amount of years and you are an idiot." I totally respect your perspective and really would like to be able to discuss it without people being defensive.
not worked with aggressive cockatoos, but have worked with aggressive macaws, vultures and other, smaller birds. I never meant to give you the impression that I was condoning "sticking a clicker in their face." I do understand what is is like to be around a bird that is scared of everything and like I said, I agree you can't use clicker training for everything. Moreover, if this is the case, isn't it just as frightening to have some giant "giving praise." You have to encourage a positive association with the clicker, just like you have to do with your praise. Obviously, "the behavior" is not there if they aren't socialized. You are teaching the bird that they do not need to be afraid of you. You are training them. It is not natural for a bird to be completely comfortable with a human. We are predators to them. True, birds to not "do tricks" in the wild, but they are also flying around and interacting with a much more complex enviroment than in our living rooms. And yes, it is entertaining to teach a bird tricks. I think this keeps owner engaged and the bird gets attention and I believe this helps strengthen the relationship. If you read my other post, I explain I let Fiona walk away from training whenever she likes. I also sense a bit of anthropomorphizing. Again, I did not mean to suggest your points are not valid or to upset you in anyway. The only reason I mentioned my backround was I was afraid I would get "I've been doing this for x amount of years and you are an idiot." I totally respect your perspective and really would like to be able to discuss it without people being defensive.
Hi Fiona
If you want to discuss further about clicker training... feel free to email me...
Training a bird is a way to socialise with it.. I most certainly don't want to show my birds anywhere, but they love the training... The 'training' is a sociable thing.. Gives the bird confidence it it's abilities, and also helps with bonding...
If you want to discuss further about clicker training... feel free to email me...
Training a bird is a way to socialise with it.. I most certainly don't want to show my birds anywhere, but they love the training... The 'training' is a sociable thing.. Gives the bird confidence it it's abilities, and also helps with bonding...
Cheers
Lene
Lene
Fiona I'am not upset in any way! I never once said I was against training of any kind, feel free to go back and read all of my posts. As I said I give my advise on IRN taming and I didn't want to throw in the larger birds because that's a whole other ball game. I'm just having a discussion on a topic that is debatable in so many ways. I'm not being defensive and I'm not saying that my way of taming a bird is for everybody. These boards get boring and stale if you can't discuss or debate a topic once in awhile to pick up the speed. If only one person had the right answer and advise there won't be any need for a public forum.
(To the Mods) Don't go and lock this thread PLEASE!! There is no name calling or bad words getting thrown around and NO one is getting offended. This is a topic that needs to be addressed. We are adults and have different opinions.
Donna
(To the Mods) Don't go and lock this thread PLEASE!! There is no name calling or bad words getting thrown around and NO one is getting offended. This is a topic that needs to be addressed. We are adults and have different opinions.
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
I am sorry I made assumptions about your feelinngs, I just don't want anyone to feel that they are being attacked [I guess I've been hanging around scientists too long:)] I know you aren't against training and I certainly know what works for one bird doesn't work for another. What I am trying to figure out is: what about clicker training do you not like? Do you feel it's not personal enough? That's what I want to know. I don't necessarily think that clicker training is Gods gift to man. Like I said, I believe it's the same thing as giving praise instead, etc?
So, what is it about clickers that you don't like?
So, what is it about clickers that you don't like?
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celtic_aura
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:51 pm
I think what Donna means is that clicker training is not a blanket solution for every bird problem. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Donna!) I believe some of this debate started over my post "Constant calling" where someone pointed me to a clicker training site. For me, in my situation, clicker training wouldn't work, as I have an abused 7 year old who is scared of pretty much anything. Maybe once I build up trust and get him to let me handle him, clicker training for other things might work. But I feel right now that I would get nowhere. And while I don't have as much experience with parrots as some of you, I have experience hand raising and taking care of other birds with difficulties. 
But I'm enjoying reading about the pros and cons of clicker training and other methods of training.
But I'm enjoying reading about the pros and cons of clicker training and other methods of training.
You are absolutly correct. You had a bird that was a previous breeder and 7 years old. This bird already had issues and behaviors that you have to over come with building trust and a bond first before any training could be accomplished. When a bird of any size comes into my program I first have to see what is making this bird react and behave the way it is, some are mild behaviors and some are more agressive (unfortunaly I don't get a whole lot of history on them). I have birds in different phases of taming and some birds that sadly will not go any further then being able to come out of the cage and be social within the flock. Birds do not forget the abuse and mistreatment that they have taken in their lives and for that I give them a forever and loving home with plenty of good food and place that no one is going to expect or demand any thing out of them. So in respect I'm not against clicker training, there's just a right time and a place for it and it's not to used to as a bonding tool.
Donna
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
Petey... There are no advertisements on the site I recommended. If you are thinking about Chet Womack's training vidoes, I agree with you.. Don't go there.
B.F. Skinner was the first to put into words the theory of operant conditioning, which was later called operant training. Karen Pryor renamed it clicker training.
Karen Pryor, Bob and Marian Bailey, Wendy and Doc Jefferies and Melinda Johnson all believe it's possible to train an animal using positive reinforcement rather than coercion and force.
Clicker training or positive reinforcement can't affect the birds in a bad way, regardless of how you do it.
Karen Pryor's 'Don't Shoot The Dog' is a great read for animal lovers, people with kids and people working with people.
B.F. Skinner was the first to put into words the theory of operant conditioning, which was later called operant training. Karen Pryor renamed it clicker training.
Karen Pryor, Bob and Marian Bailey, Wendy and Doc Jefferies and Melinda Johnson all believe it's possible to train an animal using positive reinforcement rather than coercion and force.
Clicker training or positive reinforcement can't affect the birds in a bad way, regardless of how you do it.
Karen Pryor's 'Don't Shoot The Dog' is a great read for animal lovers, people with kids and people working with people.
Cheers
Lene
Lene
Re: The Use of Clicker Training
Petey wrote: Clicker training can only be done with a bird who has already developed a deep unaggressive connection and trust with the owner and then, clicker training can used for controlled actions such as flying back and forth from place to place on cue and other basic functions. .
Nobody said clicker training would affect birds in a bad way.
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
I think what the conflict is, is that Donna and I think Petey too, work to rehabilitate birds and they are coming from a different place. These birds have been abused or neglected their whole life and they feel that clicker training is not right for them. They prefer a more personal approach and since the birds have had a difficult past, they feel that they should just enjoy being in a good relaxed enviroment without having to challanged or stressed out with training. That's not to say that they do not try to socialize the birds, they do to the extent that they can, but in a more personal laid back way. They just feel that clickers are not as personal as talking, petting(if allowed), etc. I have worked with agressive birds and I agree that clicker training is not very easy when the bird is only focused on attacking you or getting away. So, there does need to be some level of trust before the bird can be trained beyond socialization and not completely absorbed with the fight or flight response. Since the birds have had tramatic pasts, there's sympathy (emotional vs purely behavioral perspective) involved and these people feel that having a loving and stable home is already a huge step in their lives and Donna and Petey are happy with that. They are looking at it from a much more emotional perspective and they do not disagree that clicker training works, they just feel that it is not neccessary and that it should not be used to socialize a bird. Donna and Petey, did I get this right?
BTW Karen Pryor didn't "rename" operant conditioning. Clicker training is a TYPE of operant conditioning.
BTW Karen Pryor didn't "rename" operant conditioning. Clicker training is a TYPE of operant conditioning.
Fiona
I can only say that I wish more people such as yourself examined the in depth meaning of my post and that woman Donna's post before quickly responding.. What you just said couldn't have been more well phrased. You're showing complete understanding of particular situations concerning the in depth problems that many of the larger birds have. The problems are intense and for many people, down right scary. I've handled these types of birds for a long time and that close up and calm relationship with those birds is what I consider to be a great success. Maybe that woman Donna feels the same way although I guess she would have to tell about her feelings. I only speak for myself. Although I don't know her, I feel that she and I are on the same wave length. Using devices to tame these birds or to relax these birds or to let them modify their attitudes towards people is serious difficult enough. I don't only refer to clickers. I can say the same thing about short perches. With these birds the only devices that can be used are my hand, wrist, arm and different levels of vocalization. Way before any of these processes are instituted, my wife and I know that there's going to be some ugly times. My hands and arms are proof of that.
I'll give you an example of one of my birds who happens to be a relatively small bird. It's a Timneh grey. First off, the bird was never abused by the original owners. They were nice people. I say this because many times, the owners get blamed for everything that's wrong with a bird which isn't true. They got this TAG when he was 2 yrs old. The bird was a serious biter. He was also a very jealous bird. The bird had never been physically handled. The people wanted to give this bird a chance although they had no idea about how to do it. Because of their fear, the only thing used with this bird were perches. A perch to pick the bird up, a perch to take the bird off the cage, aperch to put the bird back in it's cage, a perch to retrieve the bird in the house. The bird had a habit of flying to the wife and try to bite her neck, her arms and pull at her hair and clothing so the bird was handled at all because of fear. The bird also did this with the husband..same biting but in different areas. They had the bird for 6 yrs. They did make an effort. Then, the couple had a baby. Once the bird realized that attention was being given to the baby, he decided to attack the baby. Finally, the bird succeeded and that's when I received a phone call at midnight asking if I would take the bird. I agreed. Just from working with other birds wy wife and Iknew we had a long term journey with this bird. It took 1 yr to get this bird used to physical contact and have a general trusting relationship with her and I. Many bites were involved. I could go on and on but I'll just make a big point here...there was a time when this bird heavily trusted a perch. Today, the bird has absolutely no liking for any hand perches and would find itself very uncomfortable being approached with a perch. Before I forget, I should also say that way back when, this bird despised on parrots and would also try to get to them. That's all changed now. So today, what's the most annoying thing this bird does?? Well, when all the birds are out of their cages this bird has the habit of flying onto my shoulder from behind and sits there and slightly nibbles at the collar of my chewed up bird shirt in order to get my attention so that I will put my hand up to his head and scratch and rub his head and I can tell you is very hard to type with one hand while scratching his head but if I stop, he lightly nibbles at that collar until I resume petting him... He always does this when I'm on the PC. The only time I get relief is when he finally decides to go to sleep on my shoulder, Then I can type faster. This bird is now 14 yrs old. In my eyes this whole process is what I can truly call a very satisfying conclusion to a situation in which the bird was totally opposite of what he is today. Today his best bird friend is the original bird he was alsways focusing on in order to attack him. I'm glad that you took the time looked into and studied my post.
I can only say that I wish more people such as yourself examined the in depth meaning of my post and that woman Donna's post before quickly responding.. What you just said couldn't have been more well phrased. You're showing complete understanding of particular situations concerning the in depth problems that many of the larger birds have. The problems are intense and for many people, down right scary. I've handled these types of birds for a long time and that close up and calm relationship with those birds is what I consider to be a great success. Maybe that woman Donna feels the same way although I guess she would have to tell about her feelings. I only speak for myself. Although I don't know her, I feel that she and I are on the same wave length. Using devices to tame these birds or to relax these birds or to let them modify their attitudes towards people is serious difficult enough. I don't only refer to clickers. I can say the same thing about short perches. With these birds the only devices that can be used are my hand, wrist, arm and different levels of vocalization. Way before any of these processes are instituted, my wife and I know that there's going to be some ugly times. My hands and arms are proof of that.
I'll give you an example of one of my birds who happens to be a relatively small bird. It's a Timneh grey. First off, the bird was never abused by the original owners. They were nice people. I say this because many times, the owners get blamed for everything that's wrong with a bird which isn't true. They got this TAG when he was 2 yrs old. The bird was a serious biter. He was also a very jealous bird. The bird had never been physically handled. The people wanted to give this bird a chance although they had no idea about how to do it. Because of their fear, the only thing used with this bird were perches. A perch to pick the bird up, a perch to take the bird off the cage, aperch to put the bird back in it's cage, a perch to retrieve the bird in the house. The bird had a habit of flying to the wife and try to bite her neck, her arms and pull at her hair and clothing so the bird was handled at all because of fear. The bird also did this with the husband..same biting but in different areas. They had the bird for 6 yrs. They did make an effort. Then, the couple had a baby. Once the bird realized that attention was being given to the baby, he decided to attack the baby. Finally, the bird succeeded and that's when I received a phone call at midnight asking if I would take the bird. I agreed. Just from working with other birds wy wife and Iknew we had a long term journey with this bird. It took 1 yr to get this bird used to physical contact and have a general trusting relationship with her and I. Many bites were involved. I could go on and on but I'll just make a big point here...there was a time when this bird heavily trusted a perch. Today, the bird has absolutely no liking for any hand perches and would find itself very uncomfortable being approached with a perch. Before I forget, I should also say that way back when, this bird despised on parrots and would also try to get to them. That's all changed now. So today, what's the most annoying thing this bird does?? Well, when all the birds are out of their cages this bird has the habit of flying onto my shoulder from behind and sits there and slightly nibbles at the collar of my chewed up bird shirt in order to get my attention so that I will put my hand up to his head and scratch and rub his head and I can tell you is very hard to type with one hand while scratching his head but if I stop, he lightly nibbles at that collar until I resume petting him... He always does this when I'm on the PC. The only time I get relief is when he finally decides to go to sleep on my shoulder, Then I can type faster. This bird is now 14 yrs old. In my eyes this whole process is what I can truly call a very satisfying conclusion to a situation in which the bird was totally opposite of what he is today. Today his best bird friend is the original bird he was alsways focusing on in order to attack him. I'm glad that you took the time looked into and studied my post.
Well I'm flattered Petey thank you. I've always believed that by really trying to understand other people's perspectives, one can broaden their own mind and understanding of the world. That's such a sad story 
Poor family. I also agree that a lot of times owners are unfairly blamed. A lot of people assume that if they are not social, they were abused (same with dogs, cats, etc). That's why I included neglect (eg neglecting to socialize). I worked with a hawk head that was aggressive, thus no one handled him. He was not allowed to be on your shoulder b/c he couldn't be trusted, but if you gave him a chance he would get on your back, in the middle where he new you couldn't reach well and if you tried to reach for him, he'd bite HARD. He would also get the little hairs on your neck 
With a little patience he did calm down, but was always really onery. To this day though Hawk heads are one of my favorites......for some reason I tend to like birds that are known to have attitudes; hawk heads, vultures, IRN.....
Anyway, I hope this clears up what the actual issue is and if people want to debate about that they can.
Poor family. I also agree that a lot of times owners are unfairly blamed. A lot of people assume that if they are not social, they were abused (same with dogs, cats, etc). That's why I included neglect (eg neglecting to socialize). I worked with a hawk head that was aggressive, thus no one handled him. He was not allowed to be on your shoulder b/c he couldn't be trusted, but if you gave him a chance he would get on your back, in the middle where he new you couldn't reach well and if you tried to reach for him, he'd bite HARD. He would also get the little hairs on your neck With a little patience he did calm down, but was always really onery. To this day though Hawk heads are one of my favorites......for some reason I tend to like birds that are known to have attitudes; hawk heads, vultures, IRN.....
Anyway, I hope this clears up what the actual issue is and if people want to debate about that they can.
An excellent thread!!
I think what it really demonstrates is that very often the written word can be seriously misunderstood - especially the emotional context - and communicating without being face to face is fraught with dangers this way.
But hell, this has been extremely useful in terms of training cos this time I am starting with hand-reared baby who is already seriously tame and I don't want to jeopardise that in an effort to tame it further.
Thanks ladies and gents - Petey, your fingers must be numb
I think what it really demonstrates is that very often the written word can be seriously misunderstood - especially the emotional context - and communicating without being face to face is fraught with dangers this way.
But hell, this has been extremely useful in terms of training cos this time I am starting with hand-reared baby who is already seriously tame and I don't want to jeopardise that in an effort to tame it further.
Thanks ladies and gents - Petey, your fingers must be numb
Ain't that true, Stu.... and I'm a master at it... 
Fiona, I didn't say Karen Pryor renamed operant conditioning, but operant training.
Petey, what a terrible thing to happen... Poor baby... Parrots really can do some serious damage.
Your TAG sounds a lot like my Corella (Cory), got to be petted constantly, although Cory prefers my lap, when I'm sitting in fron't of the computer, and then he'll nip the soft skin on my arms to get attention.
Just one more word from me on clicker training
The reason I recommended clicker training to people asking for advice, is that it worked for me, and I think that's what a forum like this is about: to share ideas which have worked for people.
OK, that was more than one word
Fiona, I didn't say Karen Pryor renamed operant conditioning, but operant training.
Petey, what a terrible thing to happen... Poor baby... Parrots really can do some serious damage.
Your TAG sounds a lot like my Corella (Cory), got to be petted constantly, although Cory prefers my lap, when I'm sitting in fron't of the computer, and then he'll nip the soft skin on my arms to get attention.
Just one more word from me on clicker training
The reason I recommended clicker training to people asking for advice, is that it worked for me, and I think that's what a forum like this is about: to share ideas which have worked for people.
OK, that was more than one word
Cheers
Lene
Lene
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Poochletty
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:26 pm
- Location: Idaho
Hi. I'm rather new here and in my introduction I told you that my daughter has a European Starling. We also have an IRN and a budgie. Anyway, my daughter uses clicker training for the Starling as well as our 2 dogs. From personal experience, I can say that the clicker, for us, reinforces positive actions. But I agree it comes after a well established and trusting relationship is firmly in place. It doesn't stop bad behavior, but it is a valuable part of why our pets want to do good behavior. The reward can be a indeed be a treat. It could also be a petting, a cuddle, a favorite toy for a period of time or a verbal praise. Whatever works. Our pets get very very excited when they see the clicker come out. As for tricks... I think about it the same as I would think about attending my child's dance or piano recital where she would be rewarded with applause. We applaud our children when they perform the talents we teach them. My pets love praise too, so I simply teach them talents that give them the chance to outwardly seek my attention and praise. Because, lets face it. I am very busy and sometimes they feel neglected. Mamas need reminding too sometimes. So, my dogs do their tricks whenever they want to let me know they want my attention. They even invent their own tricks. The Starling just says "Come here" "I Love You" and then whistles like he's calling the dogs. Ha ha ha. 
The clicker, for us is only used if we are gonna have a formal training session. Usually just a refresher course for sit, stay, and that sort of thing. I respect anyone who teaches their pets to follow directions that will help us to keep them happy, healthy. and safe. It really doesn't matter what method you use. As long as it is done with love and kindness. I like forums like this because people do give a great range of suggestions to try. And since we all know how very different our fids can be... we often need 2 or 35 ideas. Ha ha ha.
So, to all here.. my applause.
The clicker, for us is only used if we are gonna have a formal training session. Usually just a refresher course for sit, stay, and that sort of thing. I respect anyone who teaches their pets to follow directions that will help us to keep them happy, healthy. and safe. It really doesn't matter what method you use. As long as it is done with love and kindness. I like forums like this because people do give a great range of suggestions to try. And since we all know how very different our fids can be... we often need 2 or 35 ideas. Ha ha ha.
So, to all here.. my applause.
It seems, does it not, that it all comes down to personal choice? Do you want a more emotional, laid back approach; or a more structured one?
Both can work, you just have to know what you're doing. Not everyone knows how to take a bird with deeply ingrained behavioral issues and phobias and help them. With or without clicker training. Both methods need experience and patience, no?
I don't use a clicker, I used to frown on the whole idea of it (of course, I was also training/modifying behavior of a deaf dog with signs, lol, at the time I met my first clicker trainer person). I don't even like treat training (my praise is the treat)! I thought it silly to carry a clicker everywhere- until I realized I was using a clicker of my own. With Taku, his OK sign was his clicker, followed by 'good boy' sign. It let him know he was doing the right thing at the precise moment he did it. It wasn't just training, but also for behavior. I also used it for good behaviors, like not jumping up on the counters when he wanted to or sitting next to me instead of jumping on my lap (boxer kisses are gross!). Even when he was just laying down and chewing his bone, he would get an OK good dog. Because he was doing something that should be rewarded, instead of doing something that wasn't proper. He had no manners, was not house trained, etc. It was a lot of work (as he had to learn what 'OK good boy' meant!), but the signs were his clicker really. With every dog I work with, my voice or gesture/petting is and has been my clicker and reward.
With a better understanding of what clicker training really is and it's goals, I can see the similarities. A clicker isn't necessary, it's all the same training in the end, but it can help some people be more sure of what they are doing, boost confidence and give them a set plan so they know exactly what comes next.
That being said, my first rule of birds: A bird is NOT a dog. I learned that quickly enough. But I've explored quite a bit of both worlds as fas as birds go.
Clicker training can be used effectively, if it's done right. Just like any other taming or training method, it's going to take work and knowledge. It certainly isn't the quick way out, but it's worth being explored.
I like to think I have a better understanding of the thoughts behind clicker training now, better than I did then. It can be used for taming or behavior modification, but in the respect that you use it to reinforce positive things. The best work I've seen with clickers is with fearful dogs. I believe there's even a good chunk of time just getting them accustomed to the sound, before any steps are taken towards training or taming (especially with birds). But, isn't that the same as sitting in the room with the bird to get it used to you being there? Most people I've spoken with don't really understand what clicker training really is, and only think it's for tricks/simple theatrics. But it's not, it's simply another method of reward and praise.
For me, the lines are blurred between taming and training, as they are the same to me. So I understand what Fiona is saying (I think). For me, modifying behaviors /is/ training. We're presenting something for the animal to respond to and conditioning that response to fit our idea of good behavior. We are training them to respond in a manner different than before.
When we sit next to a bird, or in the same room simply to get them used to our presence, we are training them to accept it as a normal part of their world and move on.
Training for me isn't limited to sit, stay, come- it's the total behavior of my animals.
If you want to confine the definition of training to the realm of tricks then no, it won't help if you don't already have a good/developing relationship with your bird.
I still don't use clickers, I don't need them. I can use my voice, but I've also learned my timing over years of experience. Clickers can simply be easier for some people.
And the treat isn't necessary, that's up to personal preference as well. But... our IRNs can be extremely food motivated.
Both can work, you just have to know what you're doing. Not everyone knows how to take a bird with deeply ingrained behavioral issues and phobias and help them. With or without clicker training. Both methods need experience and patience, no?
I don't use a clicker, I used to frown on the whole idea of it (of course, I was also training/modifying behavior of a deaf dog with signs, lol, at the time I met my first clicker trainer person). I don't even like treat training (my praise is the treat)! I thought it silly to carry a clicker everywhere- until I realized I was using a clicker of my own. With Taku, his OK sign was his clicker, followed by 'good boy' sign. It let him know he was doing the right thing at the precise moment he did it. It wasn't just training, but also for behavior. I also used it for good behaviors, like not jumping up on the counters when he wanted to or sitting next to me instead of jumping on my lap (boxer kisses are gross!). Even when he was just laying down and chewing his bone, he would get an OK good dog. Because he was doing something that should be rewarded, instead of doing something that wasn't proper. He had no manners, was not house trained, etc. It was a lot of work (as he had to learn what 'OK good boy' meant!), but the signs were his clicker really. With every dog I work with, my voice or gesture/petting is and has been my clicker and reward.
With a better understanding of what clicker training really is and it's goals, I can see the similarities. A clicker isn't necessary, it's all the same training in the end, but it can help some people be more sure of what they are doing, boost confidence and give them a set plan so they know exactly what comes next.
That being said, my first rule of birds: A bird is NOT a dog. I learned that quickly enough. But I've explored quite a bit of both worlds as fas as birds go.
Clicker training can be used effectively, if it's done right. Just like any other taming or training method, it's going to take work and knowledge. It certainly isn't the quick way out, but it's worth being explored.
I like to think I have a better understanding of the thoughts behind clicker training now, better than I did then. It can be used for taming or behavior modification, but in the respect that you use it to reinforce positive things. The best work I've seen with clickers is with fearful dogs. I believe there's even a good chunk of time just getting them accustomed to the sound, before any steps are taken towards training or taming (especially with birds). But, isn't that the same as sitting in the room with the bird to get it used to you being there? Most people I've spoken with don't really understand what clicker training really is, and only think it's for tricks/simple theatrics. But it's not, it's simply another method of reward and praise.
For me, the lines are blurred between taming and training, as they are the same to me. So I understand what Fiona is saying (I think). For me, modifying behaviors /is/ training. We're presenting something for the animal to respond to and conditioning that response to fit our idea of good behavior. We are training them to respond in a manner different than before.
When we sit next to a bird, or in the same room simply to get them used to our presence, we are training them to accept it as a normal part of their world and move on.
Training for me isn't limited to sit, stay, come- it's the total behavior of my animals.
If you want to confine the definition of training to the realm of tricks then no, it won't help if you don't already have a good/developing relationship with your bird.
I still don't use clickers, I don't need them. I can use my voice, but I've also learned my timing over years of experience. Clickers can simply be easier for some people.
And the treat isn't necessary, that's up to personal preference as well. But... our IRNs can be extremely food motivated.
I've been called 'birdbrained' before, but somehow I don't think this is what they meant. say:hah-nay
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Oliver and Justin
- Posts: 323
- Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:57 am
hi guys
hmm, i thinkit has grown to be a big argument here...
just giving my point of view...
everybody has diffrent ways of training...use what ever is effective and make the bird happy...
no point arguing, every body has diffrent point of view and opinion...
so, it can't never be solved...
like what justin said, just do it if u think is good, and dont is it is not...
for me...
i use clecker training...
i say the comand, the bird do it, i sound the clicker, and reward...
but after the bird master the trick, i eliminate the clicker sound, then eventually the reward...
resoult, the bird just need command to do the trick...
clicker training make bird understand the concept faster...but it is more fun to use verbal when im havung fun with them...
thats for me...
sorry if i offend anybody... 
just giving my point of view...
everybody has diffrent ways of training...use what ever is effective and make the bird happy...
no point arguing, every body has diffrent point of view and opinion...
so, it can't never be solved...
like what justin said, just do it if u think is good, and dont is it is not...
for me...
i use clecker training...
i say the comand, the bird do it, i sound the clicker, and reward...
but after the bird master the trick, i eliminate the clicker sound, then eventually the reward...
resoult, the bird just need command to do the trick...
clicker training make bird understand the concept faster...but it is more fun to use verbal when im havung fun with them...
thats for me...
sorry if i offend anybody...
guys, if i offend you in any way, please let me know....don't keep it to yourself....okay.tango is FE-male.............
very interesting debate i dont know much about clicker training so i wont comment on that. someone brought up chet i bought one of his dvds when i first got cookie and they dint help at all they just showed various tricks you can teach them i wanted help with biting 
any way he emailed me relentlessly trying to get me to buy everything under the sun he was of no help at all and it felt to me like he was just out to make money. i was told if i had any questions to email him so i did and the reply was always buy this it will help then i found you guys and the vast knowledge of birds really helped anyway what i am saying is its good to have all the different opinions so that you can try many things with the bird so what works for some may not work for others but eventually your bound to find the way of taming that makes your bird feel comfortable.
any way he emailed me relentlessly trying to get me to buy everything under the sun he was of no help at all and it felt to me like he was just out to make money. i was told if i had any questions to email him so i did and the reply was always buy this it will help then i found you guys and the vast knowledge of birds really helped anyway what i am saying is its good to have all the different opinions so that you can try many things with the bird so what works for some may not work for others but eventually your bound to find the way of taming that makes your bird feel comfortable.hi
i feel that chet is trying to make money there...i think its okay...he need living too
i never heard much about the testimonial on chet product but im sure it is good for some ppl and bad to some too...
honesly, i know clicker training from chet advertisement, i tried on my love bird...and it work really good...
this is personal feeling, i don like to comunicate with my pet with clicker, i like verbal...but clicker to me is just to help bird to understand the concept faster...
i think u know about tango problem now...abt the rat...
i actually use the clicker again and use it on the old trick...like shake hand and wave hallo...
he show some progress in it...
anyway...i love my bird to do tricks...they love to perform it to their person...from what i observed...they feel happy when we give them comman to do trick...
its my point of view...hehe 
i never heard much about the testimonial on chet product but im sure it is good for some ppl and bad to some too...
honesly, i know clicker training from chet advertisement, i tried on my love bird...and it work really good...
this is personal feeling, i don like to comunicate with my pet with clicker, i like verbal...but clicker to me is just to help bird to understand the concept faster...
i think u know about tango problem now...abt the rat...
i actually use the clicker again and use it on the old trick...like shake hand and wave hallo...
he show some progress in it...
anyway...i love my bird to do tricks...they love to perform it to their person...from what i observed...they feel happy when we give them comman to do trick...
its my point of view...hehe
guys, if i offend you in any way, please let me know....don't keep it to yourself....okay.tango is FE-male.............