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Lunging when cleaning cage

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Crumpet
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Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:41 pm

So this is the fourth day of my parrot (Sky) being home and he has been good untill yesterday I took him out and I was feeding him out of my hand when he started nibbling on my fingers untill he bit me. This morning he was having trouble getting down off his swing so I tryed to help and he bit me. And also this morning I was cleaning his perches and he got scared of and out of no where he lunged at my hand and bit me. Sky is fully hand raised and tame.

MissK
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by MissK » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:38 pm

I think the lesson here is offer but don't advance; let him come to you. Bribery couldn't hurt.
-MissK

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:04 pm

Thanks for the advise but how do you train your birds out of the cage because I bring him out and train him but the next day all that training was useless he doesn't learn.

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:04 am

Watch that body language, there are always subtle cues before a bite. Approach your bird slowly when you want to ask him to step up, then you can see little changes in posture, eyes and feather position which indicates how the bird is reacting to your approach. If the head pulls back, eyes pin, feathers around the beak change position etc beat a hasty retreat!
Crumpet wrote:Thanks for the advise but how do you train your birds out of the cage because I bring him out and train him but the next day all that training was useless he doesn't learn.
I cannot understand what you mean by this. How are you training him? And what are you trying to train him?

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:10 am

I am training my parrot outside of his cage to step up and in the future some tricks but he always forgets everything the next day

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:28 am

Hmmm. Parrots already know how to step from branch to branch, so stepping up is just naturally going where they want to go. The whole concept of training them to step up is just to convince them they want to climb on you.

How are you trying to train him? Explain in detail.

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:40 am

I make my finger a perch and I nudge him under the belly with the command "step up" and I reward him after 3 good ones and gradually I get my finger further away so I don't even need to touch him.

MissK
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by MissK » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:36 am

I think you should review the concepts of dog clicker training, which is a form of operant conditioning. Google for either one. The reward should be presented *immediately* after the desired behaviour is presented, every time, at least to start. This means that as soon as the bird's foot starts moving to step up, the treat should be in your other hand and your hand should be in motion towards his beak, or wherever you deliver the treat if he is afraid of your hand coming at him. The treat is his feedback, it's how you tell him if he did it right, and it is his incentive to do it again.

I think this may be the reason your bird doesn't "learn" anything. In reality, he is learning all the time, but he isn't learning to step up for you because at present you are not teaching him in a way that's useful or meaningful to him. Also of note, take care in selecting your training treat. It should be just a tiny taste of something he loves, something he consumes in the fastest time possible and makes him want to look for more - half or even a third of a sunflower seed already out of the shell would be appropriate; an entire seed in the shell would not. A tiny fleck of apple would be appropriate; a piece large enough to grasp meaningfully between your fingers would not.

Of course, the bird has to be able to recognize a tiny treat, so you might have to spend some time introducing it. A good way would be to not ask the bird for anything and just give him treats for free. Start with the smallest he is interested in, and gradually reduce the size until he realizes that even a seemingly invisible treat will come when you move your hand in the way you do when you are bringing the treat to him. It will be the gesture of your hand that actually lets him know you have something coming and he will learn to anticipate something in your hand. Think of how you can fake out a dog by pretending to hold a treat in your hand. Doesn't the dog respond as if you have an actual treat, up to the point when you open your empty hand? And doesn't the dog then still look for the treat he was so sure you had? Don't actually DO that, by the way; it's mean. I only mention it to illustrate how you can train your bird to know you are going to give it a treat even when it can't actually see the treat.

Your bird is very smart and he can learn anything within his physical ability if YOU are smart enough to teach him. Let us know how it goes.
-MissK

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:52 pm

Thank you so much for the feed back I'll try to follow your advise.





~Crumpet~

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:49 pm

Crumpet wrote:I make my finger a perch and I nudge him under the belly with the command "step up" and I reward him after 3 good ones and gradually I get my finger further away so I don't even need to touch him.
Change how you are trying to train him. That explains the biting, he is learning that your hands do things he doesn't like. Missk is completely correct and your bird is learning, but he is learning the wrong things. Don't nudge him.

I made you a video, please excuse my crumpled morning face. I thought a video would be quicker and easier than a step by step guide.
A few things to note, your bird will respond to your moods. If you are stressed or trying to hard he will probably be stressed by training. My birds really amuse me with their cuteness and cleverness so training them makes me happy and they are always keen to train. If we are not having fun we don't train.
Hold out the bribe so your bird can reach it when he steps onto your finger. Even putting one foot on your hand is good enough for a treat at first. I would have shown that, but my birds were being to enthusiastic.
Mine are trained to step up for the physical cue of holding my hand out, not the verbal cue.
Keep rewarding every time for atleast a week or 2 then you can reward randomly, but no more than 4 or 5 without a reward. If bird stops being happy to step up reward him more.

http://youtu.be/pml_P8PyM30

MissK
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by MissK » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:23 pm

Claire is quite awesome, isn't she?
:D
I'm also so impressed with her video skills.

Claire, thank you for taking the time to create that video. It makes a very clear demonstration and will doubtless help many people.
-MissK

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:09 am

MissK wrote:Claire is quite awesome, isn't she?
:D
I'm also so impressed with her video skills.

Claire, thank you for taking the time to create that video. It makes a very clear demonstration and will doubtless help many people.
Thanks Missk. I do hope it does. I've been meaning to make a series of "how to train your ringneck" videos, but my attempts have all turned into me cracking up laughing when the birds do something funny, like flying over to land on the objects they are supposed to be nervous of when I point to them... or I completely forget important stuff and go off on tangents! Or Sapph does her hefalump-hop and Dave and I crack up again... How cute is her hop? She weighs about 5kg when she hits your hand! Nila weighs nothing when he hops onto you, but is still cute.

See what I mean about the tangents?

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:40 am

Thank you so much guys I will put all of these methods of training into action and I'll reply when things are going well.






~Crumpet~

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:04 pm

I give sky fruit in the mornings in a Bowl and take it out after an hour so this morning I could tell he was very upset but I didn't expect him to bite me when I put his normal food bowl into his cage.

What could I do to prevent this?

Let him eat untill he is full next time or just give him less so that he eats it all?

and training is going very well so thank you.

~crumpet~

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:27 pm

I'm glad training is improving. I find my parrots are incredibly quick learners.

Watch his body language, if he doesn't want you near him back off and change dishes when he is not nearby for now. Taking away resources can upset some animals.

How much fruit do you give him? Does he fly? A bird that spends most of it's day in a cage has quite low energy requirements in diet. Most fruit is very high in sugar, so should be fed in moderation.
Diet can affect behaviour, think of being stuck in a motel room all day with a toddler that has had red fizzy drink with cocopops for breakfast.

Do you set up foraging for him to do?

MissK
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by MissK » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:53 pm

There is also the somewhat sneaky stop gap tactic of placing a so yummy treat far away in the cage so he is distracted and elsewhere when you change the bowl.
-MissK

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:15 am

Sky does not fly I had his wings clipped at the breeder because I was informed that he will interact more with me if he couldn't fly. Also I gave him quarter of an apple and 2 cm of a corn cob that I take of the cob. I do not set up foraging toys because I have a budget and right now I got nothing but I am thinking about going to the pet store this weekend and getting a clicker for training and talk to one of the people about foraging toys. I take him out of his cage every day for an hour to two hours and this will be my first weekend with him so I'll try to spend a bit more. He is also 9 weeks old. And missK he is not a fan of going from one side to the other for a treat.

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:57 am

Pity you had his wings clipped, that's an old wives tale. I'd take an other advice from that breeder with a grain of salt. Ringnecks wean a bit later than that usually also.
InTheAir wrote:I recommend you find a good quality pellet, I use Roudybush but I have no idea on what is available in your country.
Also feed lots of vegetables and some fruit. nuts and seeds can be used as treats.
Here is some basic info
http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/LinkC ... 3&mid=4644
http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/LinkC ... 3&mid=4644
http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/LinkC ... 3&mid=4644

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:30 am

I also use roudy bush pellets and I feed corn and apples. Sky was weaned only a seed mix called peach face mix (the same name of a lovebird) so I have been working with him to eat roudy bush. He does eat it but he is not a very big fan so in a day I'll change him back to some roudy bush and some seeds.

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:12 am

I'm lucky, both our monsters took to pellets immediately. We removed sunflower seeds from the seed mix while they were transitioning to pellets.
Corn and apples you will find on the high energy- feed sparingly list on the links I posted above. They also have quite bad nutritional values, are high in phosphorus and low in calcium, so are best for treats. It takes a while to tteach a young bird to try new things, but keep trying. We also chop up a heap of vegetables and blend them all together, they can be frozen in an icecube tray. Each morning the birds get that, sometimes with linseed sprinkled in. We choose the vegetables and fruit that have high calcium as one of our birds was on the low side of the calcium scale last time he had a blood test...

We do a lot of low budget foraging, partly because our birds have almost every foraging puzzle available in their size, and a couple for larger birds, and can solve most in under 20 seconds! It was fun watching them learn though!
Wrapping carrots or chillies in leafy greens is one of our favourites. Skewers are awesome, you can sushi roll a piece of fruit in greens and skewer it.
Paper is great also. We get the roll ends from our local newspaper, which are sold via a charity. $5 gets you months worth of paper. Dry food and coup cups can be covered in paper. Egg cartons are more advanced and good value for money. Small boxes, we chop up and reuse our cereal boxes. handy towel rolls... etc.... all you need for foraging is creativity and to make time!

MissK
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by MissK » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:41 am

Try different foods for luring the bird to the other side of the cage. Something really should work.
-MissK

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:29 am

I found that some of his favourite seeds works for luring. Also do you think it would be a good idea to have some sort of a flat wood in the cage with a small border with lots of foraging items in there? I was thinking wrapping a two or three seeds with paper and maybe one of those plastic balls with holes in it and I'll put some obscure shaped seeds in it.

Thanks




~crumpet~

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:16 pm

Little paper parcels are always a hit here. Also paper straws can be cut into shorter pieces and have things stuffed in them. Easy and cheap, you can make enough parcels to last the day while you watch tv in the evenings (if you watch tv). These can be hidden around the cage. It is good try try and put them in different places so your bird has to explorethe whole cage to find everything.
have fun getting creative!

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:45 pm

Ok thanks

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:50 pm

So I have just finished teaching Sky to step up and now I am teaching him step down and he never wants to Se he try's to climb up my arm. I put my arm on a 90 degree angle so he can't and then he goes back. Also I was trying out teaching him to be ok with me touching his wings but he just runs away every time until he gets to the end of the perch.

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

~crumpet~

MissK
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by MissK » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:26 am

Advice: Stop doing things that make him leave. Touching the wings appears to be something he's not ready for.
-MissK

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:19 pm

Ok

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InTheAir
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by InTheAir » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:56 pm

Basically, anything you do to your bird that causes him to retreat, run away or bite is going to make him trust you less. You need to earn trust from him, which means doing things he likes, playing, feeding treats, hanging out, whatever he likes. When you have a good relationship established with your bird then he might let you start doing other things.

Crumpet
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Re: Lunging when cleaning cage

Post by Crumpet » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:59 am

Do you have any advise on what exercises I could do with him now? Because I just bought a clicker and I have tought him that when I click he gets a treat so now I want to work on his trust.

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