Training irns is harder than budgies!

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Jasonj
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Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

Ok, I only had this bird for a couples of weeks now but I have come to the conclusion that this bird is stubborn as hell. He tolerates my presence but only if I don't look at him or show my hands. There is no chance of hand feeding or having him sit near me.
It's good that he doesn't bite- but only because he goes so far away from me rather than get near enough to sink his beak in haha
Anyway, I'm beginning to think he is much older than the 5months that I was told from his breeder. He measures 13inches so is that about the length of a 5month bird??
He has made very little (if any) progress to trust me and comparing to every budgie I had, they would have started to break in by now.
I made a mistake to not find a hand reared irn rather than young aviary stock.
I have trawled this site and many others for information and advice and it becomes confusing, contradicting and overwhelming in the end.
But things are what they are, and I'm here with an incredibly wary bird. Luckily I'm a very patient man.
Has anyone else succeeded (or failed?!) to win over such a wild bird?
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

Harder than Budgies....... Well, Yeah. You do realize you are trying to tame a wild animal, right? If you happen to have any Budgies already, or any other pet birds, you should let them model behaviours for your Ringneck. Best wishes.
-MissK
SunniDai
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by SunniDai »

Patience, time and consistency. Those are the keys, in my opinion. We've got one hand reared and three rescues. The rescues won't let us touch them, but they are stick trained and will ride around the house on a stick. We are ok with the fact that we may never get to hold them. But they are less wary of us and we can approach the cage and play stand withouth them flying off in a panic, so progress. We can also put treats in their treat bowl and come very close to touching them. Next I will try holding a treat for them to take. Now THAT will take some time :lol:
Dana
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Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

The irn sees the budgie fly to me, eat from my hand and climb all over me. He sees no harm ever comes to him and gets treats etc. but hold the treats near the irn cage and he climbs as far from me as he can. He will eventually pickup the treats if dropped in his dish, but if I move or look at him he drops them and runs.
When he is shut in his cage, he climbs around the roof until I open it, then he just sits on top after getting over the panic of my hand opening it.
He has never played or inspected any of his toys.
I was hoping he would have started climatising to his new home by now. He doesn't look happy at all and I'd go as far to say he is depressed.
After reading up on it all, I'm just not sure what else I can do except to keep distance and leave him on his own in the room as that is the only time he will actually eat.
SunniDai
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by SunniDai »

Keep him in the same room with you all. Let him see you going about your normal routine and interacting with your budgies. In time he will calm. IRNs are very smart. Continue your routine with him: opening the cage, feeding and watering him. Don't make eye contact for very long and move slowly.
Just give him time. It's only been a few months. He is still trying to figure out where he fits in the flock.
Good luck!
Oh, and in response to your length question: if his tail is long, count him closer at least to a year.
Dana
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Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

It's harder to measure the length of the tail but it's at least 6inches.. More, depending on how much is under the plumage round his bum!
This bird could be a 10yr old female for all I know. It's my first irn.
He was better than I was expecting the first few days, but hasn't progressed at all.
I'm going to give him another month, and if he still not starting to settle I shall look for an aviary home that I can donate him to as my surroundings may be too alien for him.
But I shall persevere and monitor him over the coming weeks.
sanjays mummi
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by sanjays mummi »

Another month? Is that all?, Sanjay was aviary bred and parent reared, semi feral when I got him!, that was four years ago and only this past twelve months can I touch him!. Your bird needs to bond with you, and trust you. It's unfair to compare your IRN with a budgie you've had much longer, and probably has a different disposition anyway.
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

What I meant was, if he doesn't start to adapt to a house in a month then he may be happier with other ringnecks in an environment that he is used to.
When he hears the wild jays outside (which sound much like irns) he is calling back. It's the only time I see him cheer up.
Another month should be enough time to see if he is beginning to settle within himself. I could resort to clip his wings to kill his spirit as it definitely helps them to give up on giving up! But I'm not going to turn him to a house pet against his will. He obviously remembers his siblings and friends and I'm not going to force him from being the bird hes already developed into.
If he starts to adapt then he will stay as part of the family (and I hastily add I hope he does!). Remaining scared and wary will not be good for his welfare.
It's a pity he wasn't handled at a young age :(
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

Hi Jason,

Please set your Budgie cage as close to your Ringneck cage as they both are comfortable with, and with the Budgie cage at a distance from the IRN cage as close as it will not upset the IRN to have you standing there with the Budgie. Spend time with your Budgie right there near the cage, reaching into the Budgie cage, letting Budgie step up, take food from you, etc. You want the Ringneck to have a front row seat to watch this, but not too close to upset the Ringneck. Do this a month and a half before you even think of making any decisions about rehoming your Ringneck.

Please be sure you are always slow and gentle around the Ringneck (Does he have a name?), speak quietly to him, give him some nice treats in his bowl every time you get near the cage. Probably you should set a bowl so you can drop treats in it from the outside of the cage. Always let your bird hear you coming, perhaps by calling his name or saying "Here I come", whatever, so you don't surprise him by just popping up. Surprises in Nature rarely end well for a prey species, so your bird isn't going to like them.

It is true he should be in the same room as the family, especially you. You should spend time in that room, doing quiet and boring things, like surfing the net, so he can observe that you are not threatening.

You said you have had the bird a couple of weeks. How many weeks? Two? Four? And you are willing to invest only four more weeks before you give up on him entirely? If you really feel you don't want to keep this bird, send him back to his breeder. The original breeder will be the best person to look after him and find him a new home, plus they are responsible for the birds they bring into the world. Where are you going to find "an aviary" where he can safely live for the next 20-30 years? He needs a real home. Just because you are not willing to work with him does not mean he is a lost cause. He is full of potential that just needs to be unlocked. If you give him to someone else you should make sure they understand WHY you are parting with him, so he is not doomed to be shuffled to a new house every two or three months.

Of course he would currently be happier in his previous environment. That is all he knows. But, like a child who has not yet learned to read or swim or eat ice cream, he can learn to be happy in the home environment if someone takes the time to teach him. Don't clip his wings, by the way, because that will make him more uncomfortable, less secure, than he is now. How would you feel if you went to live with a scary big monster and when you were afraid it tied your feet together? It wouldn't help, would it?

I'm sorry to hear you did not do enough research to expect what is happening now. You should be aware that your bird seems typical. If you are able to adjust your expectations to be more realistic you may still enjoy that bird a great deal. Even if you got a youngster that was handfed and handled by people, still you might be surprised to find you need to do further work with him. You should expect to work with him for as long as it takes, without a schedule, to achieve your goals. You should also learn how to train the bird. I strongly recommend _Don't Shoot The Dog_ by Karen Pryor as an introduction to the concepts of operant conditioning. There are other sources of information specifically designed for bird owners. InTheAir has posted many helpful links in her contributions to this forum. If you are easily discouraged, impatient, or unwilling to put in this work, I might suggest a different species might be a better choice. Budgies do well for you, apparently, and they are so wonderful, you might consider just getting another Budgie. Cockatiels, too, have a reputation for being more easily tamed and trained. Another choice might be to take in a second hand adult bird of a more easygoing species who is already tamed and trained to your comfort level.

I was really tempted to say "Send him to me." I have just taken in an untame bird (different species) one week ago, however, and I am realistic enough to know I can handle only one of them at a time. Since we both have new bird we would like to tame, I'd like to tell you how I have set mine up, and a little brag about my Ringneck as well. I hope it will help you adjust your perspective and form a realistic plan. I kept the new bird the first week in a small cage so I would not have to stress him out by catching him to take him to the vet and by having my hands in the big cage as I set it up. Yesterday I placed the bird, Lynnie, in a spacious cage in my living room (aka bird room) right next to my computer chair, and directly across the room from my Ringneck, Rocky. His cage contains a variety of perches, a swing, a rope, several toys, and a potted "Parlor Palm" plant where he can hide if he wants to. The bottom of the cage is about level with my bicep as I sit in front of my computer, and the cage is three feet tall. The top perch is about level with my eyes if I am standing up. Currently the bird stays on the highest perch while I am near, but I have seen him come down to eat when I spy on him from the next room. In a few days he will be eating right next to me, if his actions in the small cage are any indication.

My new bird is a Lineolated Parakeet, a species with a reputation of being more laid back than the Ringneck, but still with a tendency to be wary of hands in adulthood. He is three years old. I have NO TIME FRAME for taming this bird. I have, in fact, no plan to attempt to touch him until he is reliably taking food from me. It may be some time until that happens, but when it does, then I will formulate the next plan. I may be a lazy trainer, but I am a lazy trainer with a Ringneck who will fly to my arm from across the room for a tiny seed. Two years ago he was afraid of me. My Ringneck learned to step onto my wrist by watching a Budgie learn to do the same. This is why I want you to put your Budgie next to your Ringneck, by the way. I will be bursting with pride and joy each time I ask my Ringneck to model taking food from the hand and stepping up for the new bird because he learned to do those things right here in my living room, and he will be passing it on to the new bird. It's really a beautiful thing. I hope you will stick with your bird long enough to be proud of him for learning something in your house.
-MissK
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

Thank you missk. I value your advice. I take onboard what all of you say infact.
My setup consists of this.. My budgies cage is sat on a table with his playground and perches in front. My chair is against the table (I always sit here). The irn is currently in a cage 2x2x3ft. This is on the other side of my chair. It started off further away but have pulled it close as he sits on his perch with me on my chair. I have to move very slowly for him to stay on his perches. If I look at him or show my hands he clings to the bars on the other side. When I leave the room, he eats. The budgies door is never shut and happily eats seed or fruit from my fingers, tongue, collar and head. The irn watches from his perch. The 2 cages are 4ft apart with my chair between. He is not tempted for even a closer look. I'll put some in his dish and he will go to it when I leave the room. If I come back in, he drops it and climbs back up.
It's not so much me giving up on him, it's more that he older than I was told and was already an aviary bird at heart. Like the other lady said, it took 3yrs for an aviary bird to allow her to touch him. How long was the bird feeling "out of place" before he started to cave in? I don't want my bird to be timid for a long time because of the stress he will endure- I'd rather he goes back to the company he is longing for, being what he grew into.
I could then choose a more reputable breeder who has cared for their fledglings more tailored to human company. The babies won't be stressing when faced with human contact.
Am I making sense? I know what I'm meaning anyway!
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

Thank you missk. I value your advice. I take onboard what all of you say infact.
My setup consists of this.. My budgies cage is sat on a table with his playground and perches in front. My chair is against the table (I always sit here). The irn is currently in a cage 2x2x3ft. This is on the other side of my chair. It started off further away but have pulled it close as he sits on his perch with me on my chair. I have to move very slowly for him to stay on his perches. If I look at him or show my hands he clings to the bars on the other side. When I leave the room, he eats. The budgies door is never shut and happily eats seed or fruit from my fingers, tongue, collar and head. The irn watches from his perch. The 2 cages are 4ft apart with my chair between. He is not tempted for even a closer look. I'll put some in his dish and he will go to it when I leave the room. If I come back in, he drops it and climbs back up.
It's not so much me giving up on him, it's more that he older than I was told and was already an aviary bird at heart. Like the other lady said, it took 3yrs for an aviary bird to allow her to touch him. How long was the bird feeling "out of place" before he started to cave in? I don't want my bird to be timid for a long time because of the stress he will endure- I'd rather he goes back to the company he is longing for, being what he grew into.
I could then choose a more reputable breeder who has cared for their fledglings more tailored to human company. The babies won't be stressing when faced with human contact.
Am I making sense? I know what I'm meaning anyway!
sanjays mummi
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by sanjays mummi »

Sanjay settled in relatively quickly, he started taking walnuts from my hand when he was still in his nursery cage. We gave him as much time as he needed, and respected his wish when he wouldn't allow us to invade his personal space. Yes he was very scared of hands in his cage, yet in no time at all he was nibbling his fruit etc before I had finished putting it in.
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

So, Sanjay is scared of hands but is willing to take treats from your fingers. through the bars or door?
I tried a full length millet through the bars with my hand covered by my sleeve and the budgie running along it gleefully filling his boots with seed. The irn was still not impressed and my arm ached to the point I had to stop. I clipped it through the bars with a clothes peg so I could take my hands away. The budgie gained a bellyful while the irn showed no interest at all. But at least he remained on his perch that time.
Why can't he just be normal lol I'd rather have a biter cos at least it means he wouldn't be scuttling off everytime I get within 10yards of him! Bold is surely better than timid?
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

Jason, I think I understand. What I'm hearing is you don't want the bird to be uncomfortable for the duration of however long it takes for him to learn to be comfortable. Is that right?

It's a compassionate perspective. Unfortunately, if you send him along and replace him with a different bird, it really only lets you out of the scenario. He still has to live his life. He will still be uncomfortable in whatever house he ends up in. He might wind up as a breeder, and if he's lucky he might have a large enough cage and good care. On the other hand, do you want to take that chance? Would you want him breeding more birds to play out his same story again and again for a decade or two? It would be swell if he could end up in a large public aviary, such as in a modern zoo or this fantastic place... http://aqua.org/explore/baltimore/exhib ... rainforest ... although that is the wrong part of the world and I'm sure they wouldn't take him. There are far too many untame Ringnecks without homes to reasonably expect to find him a nice little bit of paradise.

It's pretty sad, isn't it? This is one of the reasons I like to choose second hand birds, and one of the reasons I say we have no right to keep these birds. I'm sorry you and your bird had to experience this firsthand. Wouldn't it be kindest, since the bird is going to have to learn to live with people anyway, if he could stay with you? Surely you have the compassion. You just need some help learning how to do what you need to do. I've provided you a tool, that book, that will be incredibly helpful. The links from InTheAir are very good, and have helped many people and their birds. People here on the forum will help you, too, and there are plenty who have been in your same spot. If you read the book you might learn, quickly, that your efforts with the millet were a great example of asking too much too fast, dooming yourself to failure and discouragement.

It's true that it is a shame the breeder didn't put more work into the babies. It's false, however, that hand raised babies are automatically tame and handleable. I also am not so sure your bird is as old as you think. For instance, my adult bird's tail is much closer to eight inches. Also, the young ones do have a basic life learning curve to overcome. As far as keeping his distance in fear, Jason, that *IS* normal.

Take some time to learn how to train your bird. Offer various high value foods, the nuts, the bigger seeds, the fruit. Put them in the bowl. Say "Goodies!" as you put them in the bowl and then back off. Do this all the time. Your bird *will* learn that you are bringing goodies and you are letting him know when they are coming. If you like to use a clicker, you click instead of saying "Goodies". That's how we make the click have value to the bird. Please get that book I mentioned. It's been though more than one printing, so you will be able to get the first printing dirt cheap on Amazon. It can teach you better than I can, and it will never go to bed or go to work when you want answers or lose patience or get tired of repeating itself. Training a Ringneck is, as you said, different from training a Budgie. However, they both, as well as humans, orangutans, Dalmations, spiders, and most of the animals people will keep, learn by the same principles. Use those principles. You wouldn't use a hammer to unscrew a screw, would you? You wouldn't use a saw. You would use the right tool for the job. Learning how animals learn and using those principles is the right tool for the job you have to do. You may get some very surprising results if you follow my advice. I think you should do it.

I would also seriously suggest a larger cage. Have a peep at my cages to see what I'm talking about. They're cheaper than you might think. http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =5&t=18437
-MissK
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

Yes, I don't want the bird to feel uncomfortable- as in emotionally or mentally. I hate to see him living in this level of fear. I know what it's like to live in fear and it's not nice.
I know he is safe and won't come to harm, but he thinks the worst. If I move too quick this bird turns to stone then goes into blind panic like when I open his cage or get my hands too close.
I will be getting him a larger cage as I was adviced this is large enough for him, but looking at him in it I can see it could be more generous. I almost got a larger one too! Oh well, live and learn. I have covered up the back and part of the sides as it seems to make him feel more secure.
He was sat on top of his cage all day today and done nothing.. Just sat there. He used to visit the budgie cage first few days but now that has come to a stop. I put monkey nuts on top of the budgie cage but he didn't bother with them either. Eventually he went back in his cage to get some apple and a grape I put in his dish. He then had the millet spray. He has gone much quieter and withdrawn than the first week. He is looking healthy and his droppings haven't changed so I don't think he is physically ill.. But I do beleive he has dropped into a depression.
I just don't know how to kick start or stimulate him.. I think possibly he is missing the company of other irns.
Is it normal for irns to go backwards when settling somewhere new?
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

Has he got stuff to do? Foot toys? Something to destroy? Birds can get bored, even quickly.
-MissK
sanjays mummi
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by sanjays mummi »

Absolutely!, Sanjay was like a wee statuette when he first came, only moving when I put my hand in his cage, and that was sheer panic. De sensitising is part of the process, you know the saying "familiarity breeds contempt", he can still be territorial and stroppy when I'm cleaning the inside of his palace, but mostly he's So impatient for the fresh foods!. IRN's, I have found, Love their tummies very much,which is great when it comes to taming and training.
InTheAir
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by InTheAir »

Hey guys,

I skim read this thread, so I may be repeating stuff already said in my reply.

Jason, I got a young aviary raised girl last year and she is now tamer than some hand raised irns I've met. She is more self confident in many ways than our hand raised bird, except for being shy of strangers.
I used a slightly different style of taming from Missk, I read a brilliant blog by an avian behaviourist and followed her technique. My bird was so uncomfortable around people that sitting in the same room would have been flooding at the start.
The main things I noticed that she responded well to was when she noticed I was responding to her body language and never approaching her if she started panicking.
For example, I'd warn her I was going to enter her room, slowly enter holding the treat for her, wait until she had got comfy on a safe perch, approach her dish without looking at her directly. If she started get jumpy, I'd stop and wait for to settle, backing off if required. Drop treat in bowl and back off again. At first I'd have to back off to the doorway before she'd take the treat from the dish, but within a few days she was grabbing the treat as I dropped it in the dish and eating it right there.

I made a thread on taming techniques that has links on it in the behaviour section.

I've got to go to work now, I'll check back later.
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

He has hanging toys in his cage, but never showed any interest in them except for one that he uses to hide behind, which is why I enclosed the back of his cage. He's never even inspected them as far as I know.
It just bugs me that I could put this poor creature through 2years (or however long it takes) of worry just to domesticate him for quite frankly, my benefit. I'd rather get him a mate so he can be "a bird" again. But then I'll have double trouble if they don't bond or get on. That's why I'd rather let him go to an aviary.
We have a 50,000 strong colony of irns and Alex's less than 20 miles from me. I'm sure he would love (and cope!) with joining them, but there's no way I'm going down that route.
Ill monitor him for a month and see if he perks up and review the situation then. Im getting that book you mentioned missk.. I need a decent reference point.
I'd like to get him to an avian vet for a check over but capturing and handling will distress him for possibly no reason.
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

I think you need to take a more active role than monitoring him. Also, the toys may be scary - place them low in the cage. Give him a bit of cardboard to chew up. I gotta go.
-MissK
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

It looks like this irn has realised he won't be going home and seeing his friends again. He just sits and sulks and won't be consoled. He doesn't call out in the mornings anymore nor eat any treats while I'm visible. He didn't come out of his cage today but he thought about it when I hand fed the budgie millet. I gave him some too but he hasn't touched it yet- it's still wedged near his perch.
I have put some cardboard strips between the bars and I'll see if they get moved. The toys are out but I left the one he sits behind. I keep the radio on low all the time so it's not quiet. I have taken away the cover at the back of his cage so he gets more light- perhaps it made the cage too dark and dreary?
I don't know what else to do. I called him Saab but I think it's changed to prettyboy cos I kept getting mixed up with the other one lol.
Oh dear the irn has just darted across his cage and lunged at the budgie. He even growled at him. He's never done that before? Perhaps he is guarding his millet? Yay he has moved at least!
Now the budgie thinks it's a game.
sanjays mummi
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by sanjays mummi »

That Could be a good sign, in that he may be feeling territorial about his cage.
Donovan
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Donovan »

leaving the millet in the cage bars is good... he'll go for it eventually.... and eventually he'll get so anxious for it that he won't hesitate.... and after even more time he may get to where he's taking it from you before you can even finish wedging it in.
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

This is going to be a long and slow process.
I sneezed in the bathroom this morning and I could hear him banging into the sides of his cage.
I have caught many wild animals in my time (birds, reptiles, amphibians and mammals) but I got to say he has become as wary as a magpie caught in a Larsen trap.
I can't understand why he started off better than expected.. He would eat infront of me, explored my lounge (walked on top of my pacman tank, peered through the glass at my checkered garter and ate peanuts off the top, sat on the budgie playground and climbed his cage etc). I can only see him getting quieter, twitchy and reclusive. I can only think he is mourning for his old aviary now he has had a chance to miss it.
The cardboard has gone untouched but he has eaten monkey nuts after I made him jump earlier. I'm going to to find an expert to come into my home and check the environment to see if it's something I'm doing.
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

That last is a good idea. You could also post photos here.
-MissK
MissK
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

Jason, how's it going?

My new bird ate millet I was holding in the cage for the first time today, although he still spazzes out when I reach in to change the bowls.
-MissK
Jasonj
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Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by Jasonj »

Hi missk..
The update is, my IRN has gone to an aviary. Turns out he was much older than I had been told. He would've tamed, but it would have been a long and slow process.
He is doing fine now and was very pleased to see some chums. I have been informed that he's playing and eating like nothing happened.
I have no doubt that it was the best move for him. He didn't want to convert to a pet and I wasn't comfortable putting him through it- he did become sad.
But I do love this breed, so I picked up a baby turquoise (they didn't have a green one) that is used to human company. He loves his toys, not scared of hands, eagerly eats anything I wave at him and most importantly loves being the way he is. It's a huge difference when a breeder actually interacts and handles the babies.
I purchased a larger cage and I'm looking into getting him sexed. Be nice if it is a boy as Id prefer a ring, but I'm really not fussed to be fair.
The only downside is the budgie now squawks exactly like an IRN!
MissK
Posts: 3011
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:46 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Re: Training irns is harder than budgies!

Post by MissK »

Well, I hope the first bird does well. I hope the second bird does well too.
-MissK
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