Three types of Bites?

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SkyeBerry
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Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:14 am
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hello, I have only recently found this forum. I have specifically been searching 'biting.' I am familiar with 'beaking' and thought I knew what 'bluffing' was, but I am no longer certain. Would someone please explain more about this behaviour? Is it also possible that a bird becomes a 'late bluffer?' I also read a thread where several people thanked someone for their input but I could not locate the messages posted by that person??? Regardless, there was thanks for the explanation of the 'three' types of bites. Please provide me with information about the third type.

As you may have guessed, I have an IRN male ~4yrs that is biting. I purchased him as a weaned baby but at the time I was not truly understanding of the difference between being hand-fed and hand-tame if there is really such a thing at this age. Regardless, this bird was not used to being 'handled.' I must admit that at the same time I purchased a sun conure baby who fledged with this IRN. Birds a month difference in age & still get along very well. But the point I am trying to get to (MissK and I seem to share the long post habit :wink: ) is I must confess the breeder never handled the IRN in my presence. At the time I did not consider the possible significance of this, except to ask if she was going to change her mind about selling the conure as it was always in her hands.

To make matters worse, I developed some medical problems that greatly limited my ability to interact with the birds physically. I lucked out with the sun conure, because like many of his species he enjoys people time and was happy to snuggle in my shirt. My condition has greatly improved and I am now beginning work I had expected to start and finish literally years ago. Anyway, I can attest to the fact that limited interaction with an IRN will not in itself cause the bird to revert to a wild state. :P No emoticon for 'phew!'

I am sure I will post again once I get some responses. Thanks in advance. I look forward to having a place to chat/brag/ask for reassurance/request help for a bird that I know is very intelligent, curious, and getting to be "a big brave bird" who is also very "silly." Just ask him! Okay, I want to brag even though I do not even know if it is brag worthy. But at least you will know that I did interact verbally as much as possible and Skye aka Skyeberry wants to communicate verbally. His first words were 'Good Bird!' with lots of enthusiasm. This made me very happy. :D :D :D Runner up for next favorite word is "peek-a-boo." He does this with the male 'heart wing' action. Name for this? You guys know what I mean. Part of the mating dance with the little knee dip and the side to side neck stretching. At the peak of the stretch he says 'peek-a-boo.' It always reminds me of a flasher so I call it the dirty old man trick. I know not PC but it fits. His vocab is ~75 words with many 7 word phrases. He also loves to modulate his voice -loudness, pitch, bounce it off corners, head in bowl etc. LOL Okay, I'll stop now. I know this is all normal. But he is of course my 'baby.' Clarification - bird baby. Oh and he was clipped when I got him & therefore done before he learned to fly. It has taken some time but he finally figured it out this summer. If I had seen him early enough I would have requested he not be clipped. I suspect in Skye's case, his maturation was somewhat delayed. Since becoming competent at flying he has become more confident and his curious nature has really blossomed. I believe I require more knowledge to evaluate the biting and to relay information correctly to determine his motivation and my correct response.
Mary
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

:( Ah shucks! I am the only one left on the forum. Guess I'll go play with birds. :roll: Hopefully will be chatting with someone tomorrow.

Oops. My name is Mary.
Mary
Donovan
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by Donovan »

3 types of bite..hhmm... i'm just gonna wing it here....

my bird's 3 types of bite are a quick touch with almost no pressure.. it's basically him saying, "no" or "don't do that".. "I don't like that"

the next (again this is only my perception as i haven't read about 3 specific bite types) is the same but with a little more pressure... doesn't hurt but it sends the message "hey i meant it!"

and the 3rd for me is, "omg you're killing me.. let me just pry your finger open first" .. this one is a serious bite.. serious for him.. it's not communication as much as it's about defending himself.

My bird's tameness is minimal because i've always been respectful to the things that make him bite. I don't try to handle him even though it would be very convenient if i could. So therefore I don't clip his wings or his nails or his beak. To make up for that I give him sand perches and lots of hard wood toys to chew on.

In any case one thing I know is that most IRNs don't want to be handled or touched. Some love it. I attempted to condition my own bird to being touched when he was younger but I didn't follow through with it. He would take treats from me so i would only give him one if i managed to touch his side (just a poke really) .. I suppose i could have evolved this into full blown petting but i didn't stick with it.

I suspect you will have a more gratifying relationship with your IRN if you appeal to his intellect as opposed learning to touch and cuddle.....

As for the bluffing part... i have no idea but it's said that you pretty much shouldn't change what you do with him during that time because those are the moments that define an IRN.

sorry i'm not sure if i even came close to giving you the response you were looking for.. just running my mouth really
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hey Donovan! Read many of your posts. As you can see I have not be able to get very far from my computer. Although I appreciate the input and humour, I do not think that was the three types of bites - but you never know. I may have to look up the person's name that was used. That might jog someones memory. Regarding the cuddliness: although I would like to be able to provide scratches, I have a cat & a dog. :wink:
Mary
MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

Mary, I think your post should be as long as you need it to be in order to say what you've got to say! :D

I'm glad your health is coming back in line. Pardon if you already gave this information in another post I missed. I'm a little distracted these days.

Can you tell us some about the current biting? What is happening right before the bite, where is the bird, where are you, where is the other bird, etc. When does it happen? How much of a bite is it, ie, what physical effect does it have on your.... finger? What part is getting bitten? Also, did this bird bite before you had to take some time out? Honestly, my gut just says he needs to get used to the idea of your hands near him, but I'm not there, so my gut may not be qualified to weigh in on it. :lol:

Give us all the particulars and we'll all try to help.
-MissK
ellieelectrons
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by ellieelectrons »

My opinions on biting have changed a little over the years. My current opinion is that biting is a method of communication. Once you figure out what your bird is trying to tell you with the bite, that's what helps you stop the biting. However, this isn't always easy. So, MissKs questions are good ones.

I'm going to guess at the three types of bites: exploring/what is that, fear/aggression, that's mine (most common during nesting period but could also be cage defence)!

I started to write more... but it was all very "thinking out loud"... so I thought I'd wait to hear what you say next. :)

Ellie.
AJPeter
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by AJPeter »

My tuppenny worth would be "Bite first and then ask questions!" But as you build a relationship with your companion neither one wants to upset the other by outrageous behavour.
InTheAir
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by InTheAir »

I'm with Ellie on the cause and effect of biting. Fear/nerves self defence, defending territory and exploring things with the beak (non agressive).
Though, before the first 2 occur you will be given warnings that aggression is imminent. In my experience you respond moderately well to the warnings, you get given the benefit of the doubt more often in the form of extended warnings, that cater to slow human reflexes, and actual bites less often. My hen is still young, so we haven't had to deal with nesting behaviour. I'm not sure I'd get the same response in that situation.

The exploratory kind also has an early warning system, you can usually see when they are thinking about checking out how new objects fit in the beak and offer a suitable alternative if you have lightning-ninja reflexes :lol:

I don't know about bluffing, I haven't seen it first hand and found all the stuff written about it too vague for my taste.
I thought my young female may have been going through a bluffing phase towards my male, but she still doesn't seem to get on with him very well months later, so I think she just doesn't like him.

If your bird has not been handled for some time, starting from scratch like he is a new bird again is probably a good idea.

I'm a great fan of http://www.behaviorworks.org for breaking down why bites occur. I think it's an essential tool for every parrot owner.
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hi everyone. Thanks for the thoughts so far. FYI - I did write a fairly lengthy response for MissK almost immediately and I did submit it but something went haywire because it did not appear. I think when I was searching for the 'three bite' reference to see the name of the person thanked, I might have gone passed where I logged in??? and that logged me out???? but kept me on the site??? Anyway, I was tired and decided to just let my thoughts settle. Skye and I have actually been fine these past few days :) but do not worry I know we are in for more fun and games. That's part of the fun, right? Anyway, I had planned to write another response tonight but I checked out a couple of other areas just to get familiar with the site...and yes, time went by. I did post under "Why is it?" if I remember the title correctly. This post was under the category of general comments. I found reading that thread helpful. I will post again here shortly but it is almost time for my alarm to go off & for me to get up (~4:20am) - No need to worry - the birds are all sleeping and I am no where I can bother them. I'll try and post again this afternoon. ~ 12hrs. (I read your info about how the times are shown MissK.)
Mary
ranechild
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by ranechild »

SkyeBerry, after you figure out all the different kinds of bites, come back and tell me why my bird keeps biting my toes! grabs a whole toe width-wise in his beak and chomps!!!! Cannot help but react to that!!!
SkyeBerry
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Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hi ranechild...sure. Just as soon ... as ... I ... get ... Skye's ... beak ... from ... around .... my .... finger. Ah! Much better! :lol:

Just got on. Will be back shortly.
Mary
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Ok I am up way too late - early???- again but I need to post something since I started this thread. HMMM...brain not working..I am going to make some point form notes for perspective.
1. The biting is not overly aggressive. No bleeding. One good bruise. Often painful pinching with the tip of his beak.
2. He has been worked with the entire time I have had him - just not to the degree I wanted. will step up etc. Will go in his travel cage just as easy as Claire's bird in her video she posted.
3. He is much happier since learning to fly.
4. He has never lunged at me.
5. I do not believe the other bird is a factor. Although there is a little jealousy about who sits closer to my head sometimes, it usually just results in one bird running around the other and then a squawk from the bird who is now furthest away. I do not get bit. They work it out and I do not interfere...at this time.
6. Skye does like me & seeks my company.
7. Skye is not terrified of hands - does not want to be touched by them - may not really like them when they do not hold treats. If I talk to him and tell him what I am doing, and move relatively slowly I can change his food and water with him in his cage. Sometimes he comes to investigate. Sometimes he ignores me. Occasionally he seems to get a little agitated, so I use the 'pregnant pause' and tell him 'it is ok,' 'Skye is OK,' 'Skye is a good bird.' He will usually respond with 'Good' and settle down. Later that day and especially that night when I call them to their cage for bedtime, I make sure to spend extra time feeding treats from my hand to Skye with him in the cage. I have worked with him a lot re: this. He easily takes food from fingers and off palm. He will carefully take a tiny piece of millet from between my thumb and index finger. Definitely prefers to stand on arm vs hand - but does that matter? A sudden quick or unexpected movement of hand unsettles him. Obviously, I realize to avoid this.
8. I can have a closed fist (why make it easy for him to bite a finger) approx. one inch in front of him at this time without him appearing uncomfortable. If I move it closer as if to touch his chest, he will simply step back. I move my hand a little away. He moves forward. I have been doing this without treats. Prefer to not use food when possible. He seems to accept praise/good boy as a reward, but will be adding treats now as I would like to be able to touch him. Goal is not to pet him but for him to accept hands for when treatment/medication may be required, toe trims, vet exams/blood work, possibly train to harness etc. Will attempt to touch beak first. This summer he started rubbing my cheek with his beak. He likes to be told he is a good boy and then kissed on the top of his beak. (I do not like the birds to 'kiss' my lips as I am concerned re: human bacteria adversely affecting them.) He obviously accepts touch to his beak. I just need to get him to accept touch of a finger to his beak. I have been informed a lot of birds like their beak scratched.???

What I have come to realize, is that training/interaction was moving forward as I expected. Then Skye became fascinated with buttons. Skye broke a button. Skye removed a bottom. As much as I do not want to replace all my buttons, I was more worried about something being swallowed/impaction/perforation/toxins. I tried refocusing Skye's attention, little success. If I persisted to block access to buttons, Skye would bite. Solution wear only t-shirts & sweat shirts - no buttons. Skye is still looking for buttons. He seems to think they are buried under the shirt and if he chews at the shirt between my wrist and elbow they will suddenly appear. If I try to distract him he bites. (Bites the arm as usually can't get to the hand/item trying to block him) And yes I know about not reacting to a bite but after a while they hurt! Yes I said 'ow' a couple times, yes I said 'No biting" - he did respond to that when he was younger. He did realize at one point if I made a hurt bird sound that it seemed to mean something hurt and he would stop. For a few days prior to staring the original post I really do not think he cared if he hurt me. I think I couple times he got quite angry that I somehow took his favorite toy and made it disappear. He seemed to really like the clicking noise he could make with his beak on the buttons and he can now imitate that sound. I have sat with him with my arms under a blanket and he will rout around the blanket with his beak and move it trying to desperately feel for buttons. If he locates a wrinkle or unevenness under the blanket he will pick at the blanket and create a hole to get at a potential button. If I were to bring a hand up from under the blanket and move it toward him as if to push him away from the spot, I am sure he would bite. He seems obsessive about this and I am divided about trying to create a safe toy with big buttons for him or just keep them away and continue doing what I am doing. As the days pass, he is biting less and the bites are less painful.

I am concerned that although this situation has been de-escalated. I do not feel the problem of his reaction has resolved. I think this could easily re-occur with buttons or something else. I now realize that I have not comfortably decided the best way to deal with his behaviour not to encourage it. I have read enough to know that opinions differ and I know from my own experience that there is not just one method. And the best method for one person/parrot combination is not necessarily going to work for another person/parrot combination. And I do get frustrated - when I think about it - not with Skye - because like the people who attend this forum I really care about my bird, I want a good relationship with him, I want to expand what we do together re: 'tricks' etc, I want him to be happy, and I certainly don't want to screw him up. His behaviour was so quickly out of character it really threw me. Why I started extra research which led to this site. Why when I read about 'three different bites' I wanted to learn more about this as I had not heard of this before.

...so would anyone guess I used to be a shy kid and wouldn't say 'peekaboo' if my life depended on it? Amazing how our love of animals can change us.
Mary
MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

Hi Mary,

Reading your post so soon after quitting my bed made me realize I need to make coffee. Thanks for that. Now my day will go a bit smoother!

My overall impression is that you don't have that huge of a problem. It sounds like your bird is just less comfortable with hands, and I think that with continued exposure this should lessen. I really do. The goal of having him comfortable with handling sufficient for vet visits is admirable and practical. I'd say, turn to Super Trainer Claire for help on this.

My own bird prefers the wrist to the hand for perching, but I have been able to persuade him to overlook his concerns with the mighty, mighty sunflower seed. Frankly, I'm too lazy to stand around holding the bird and making him run out my finger for a seed over and over, so while I've seen it work, I don't do it much. My method was to prime the bird with a nice bunch of seeds as he was on the wrist and then require him to go further and further for the next seeds. He did get to sitting on the finger as long as the treats kept coming, because he might be a little lazy, too, and it was at that point I said "Yep, that can be done. I'm finished!" We did that a few times. What it says to me is that a greedy Ringneck who has already been stuffed with sunflower seeds might consent to brave the finger on account of his own greed. At the end of the day, I don't care so much if he stands on my wrist or my hand.

What I do get an emotional kick out of, however, is him standing on the palm of my hand. Go figure. This is accomplished, of course, with a few seeds in the palm. He will, if I close the hand a little, start shoving his head into the hand to get the seeds. If you try that, I'm sure you could finesse it into closing the hand (as much as possible) around the bird over time.

We also had a fun experience where he was too impatient to wait for me to get my finger out of the little treat jar and started shoving his head in alongside my finger. Have you got a treat jar? :lol:

For biting, I suggest you try some gentle and insightful blocking. Maybe some substitution, as in "Not this, -THIS." As others have mentioned, I agree some biting is a message for us idiot humans who have not heard the preceding more subtle messages coming from birdie. And some of it is testing, to be sure, and just gaining feedback, and some of it has just got to be fun.

As far as the button thing goes, if it were my bird, I would provide him human-approved, bird-designated buttons. Maybe he has a special interpretation of buttons, and maybe he just likes them. Maybe you can meet in the middle and guide him to his own buttons that you can transfer to whatever you have on, perhaps using one of those bird-toy necklaces. I would say that it isn't right to let him have some buttons and make others forbidden, because that's just not nice. He can't read your mind. But since he wants buttons anyway, and he's going to seek them whether you give him his own or not, let him have some. It's a precious thing to actually KNOW your bird loves something and then be able to provide it. You weren't going to not give him something harmless when you know he loves it, were you? Of course not. If you still don't want to give him buttons, then stand by with something better in your hand for when he wants buttons.

I hope I made some points that may help. I gotta go now.
-MissK
InTheAir
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by InTheAir »

I'll just clear up the biting if I can. Any bite that is accompanied by aggressive body language is an aggressive bite, whether it hurts or not, whether it is a warning nip or a full blown blood letting. It is the intent that is important, not the result. Nila has never bitten hard, but he still needs to be respected by us and his body language taken seriously. Otherwise he will probably learn to bite hard to achieve his desired result. Even Sapphire has only bitten me hard enough to bruise me once and it was purely my fault for ignoring her warnings (in my defence, she was on the back of my head).
Any bite that is accompained by fluffing around the head/beak, pinning eyes, growling, lunging, whatever is aggressive and has a meaning that should be respected whether it damages us or not.
Beaking is not accompanied by this body language, it is just chewing on stuff, and can do just as much damage.
Parrots don't draw blood from each other in the wild, they threaten to bite and the rival retreats. It is our behaviour that is unnatural.

I think that even a small amount of wariness of hands is so easily exacerbated simply because our hands are always doing random stuff that is unrelated to the bird, but the bird perceives as a threat.
For example, making my coffee was assisted by two birds running around the bench trying to throw everything on the floor. When I reached for my packet of coffee, I had to reach over a bird or 2, if either of them were worried about my hand approaching from above this would have given them another reason to think it was directed at them and hands can't be trusted. They would have run out of the way and congratulated themselves on escaping such a near miss. I would have been oblivious to this. What actually happened was Sapphire tried to take the packet of coffee off me...
This kind of scenario can happen multiple times a day, it doesn't have a huge impact in this instance, but it could. I haven't found that irns get desensitised to things they don't like unless a positive association is added, but I'm not sure if that's just my birds or a rule.
They do build a negative association very easily, you only need to do something they really don't like once or twice before they won't hang around to find out if the reaching hand will grab them and turn them upside down again. That I'm sure about!
The point of all this waffling is. ... umm... well a couple things.... Whether we are conciously training our birds or not, they are learning from every interaction. Unwittingly, we can be reinforcing those perceived threats multiple times a day.

http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com.au/2012 ... s.html?m=1


I find trading a suitable object or a treat with my birds has resulted in a reliable way of getting things they shouldn't be playing with off them without aggravating them. Because it is a trained behaviour that, Nila especially, knows he gladly gives up his trophy knowing that "Ta" means he will get something better. We trained it as a trick for treats, the positive association is so strong that he doesn't appear to feel short changed when the reward for giving up my coloured pencils is being told he is good and his least favourite toy. :mrgreen: Sapphire is less trained, but has the attention span of a goldfish, so any new object being handed to her is the best thing ever, for about 3 seconds...


I'm done waffling for now. Please read the link.

Regards,
Claire
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hello Again MissK...curling the fingers up while he is eating from my hand is something I have been doing; but my only goal for this was for Skye to realize fingers could be closer but not try and touch him. I had not decided how I was going to touch him and then I came across the info regarding beak scratching. That person recommended approaching from above the beak because you are less likely to be bit should the bird try. I think I need to review the bird's sight lines - best angles of view. I do not want to inadvertently try a sneak approach. I want Skye to allow me to touch him because he is comfortable.

I know the treat jar was a joke but in his rush to get food he has touched 'the hand.' With my luck though, I would be trying to drive to the vet with one hand on the steering wheel and the other hand wedged into the treat jar alongside Skye's stuck head! I agree that Skye likely just needs some more work and reward with regards to being comfortable with hands. Provided I figure out the button thing...

HMMM..I guess my wordiness does not always provide clear information. The button thing is the biting thing. Anything else I would consider 'beaking' or investigation on his part. I'll keep some notes for myself to see if there is stuff I am forgetting when I go to post. I do look for warning signs and I do try and respect him. I stopped wearing buttons around Skye because the only thing he would trade for was food. I am concerned he would not consider this a trade but a snack in between play because I cannot then remove the button unless I move him or remove the shirt. I did try placing him on a play gym that was beside my chair each time he went for a button and this seemed to anger him. He started to bite my hand as it approached the gym. I took it as a signal he did not want to go on the gym he wanted to continue play with the button. Of course, I ignored the bite and he would step up onto the gym. As soon as I sat down, he flew to me and was after a button. If I got up to leave the room, he flew after me. I realize I could put him in his cage but that does not deal with him going after the button. As soon as he was near me, he wanted a button. Hence the t-shirt...and my concern this could go side ways and I needed some help. I may try big buttons and hope he differentiates these from shirt buttons. I do not want to feed the addiction however or 'tease'/test him with shirt buttons. I may and am willing to pay for professional help if need be.

And I do find your posts helpful, including the one I am responding to. :)
Mary
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hi Claire - I decided to address MissK's post first because it arrived first and then to respond to yours as it touches on a few other points and I thought it might be easier for me and anyone else who is viewing this thread. Unfortunately, I need to get some rest now. I would like to say I have read a lot of your posts and respect what you say. I do know of Barbara Heidenreich, videos, blog etc. I do get her emails and had a subscription to her magazine until it stopped publication. I did view and will review the link you provided prior to posting a further response.

Aside from that, I watched a link MissK provided someone else, showing one of your IRNs 'besting' you at Connect Four. :wink: I really like how you modified the coin drop in the bank trick. I also wonder if that game and interacting with the game pieces might be a better distraction from buttons for Skye than providing him with a button toy. I do realize that is something that is not to be taught in a day or two. In this case though, I am thinking of the distraction versus correct completion of the task to be the goal...but I am beginning to get into some of the things I wanted to discuss with you so I better go now before I have no time for rest. I will try and post in about 12-16hrs.
Mary
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hi Claire,

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. I have been having trouble with my phone line. It was intermittent at first but at the moment I have no service at all. They're 'working on it.' I am currently using a friend's computer. I did just reread your post and the link. I am not sure if anything really needs to be added except I agree with what you said. Have you been to one of Barbara's conferences? Last I checked she was scheduled for Oct, about 2hrs from me, but it was not confirmed. I need to look into this.

Perhaps to make things clearer - When I first got the two bigger parrots I took them everywhere in the house and was exposing them to as much as I could think of - much the same as you would socialize a puppy. I envisioned by now they would be roaming around while I did things much as you described your coffee session. But then I got injured and bed ridden and that greatly decreased their exposure. I live alone. I was really weak so they did not get carried around and I slept a lot. Their cages were/are in my bedroom. They were able to get in and out of their cages, have play areas and lots of toys, radio etc. I mostly laid there and talked to them a lot. Skye seems really smart to me. But he is very sensitive. He is better now, but when he was younger I could not frown at him to show displeasure as some books suggested. I still cannot put much emphasis on 'no' either. Now that the buttons have been removed (sorry, MissK - until Skye and I progress some more I want to avoid this battle -hopefully enough training/relationship builds that there will be no battle or interest) aggressive biting is not an issue. No aggressive signs at all.

For a couple of days now, I have also been able to touch his beak and a toe with my finger. The toes are going to be trickier - I never kissed them

One thing I do need to watch is he will 'beak' my skin. If I ignore it, Skye will keep increasing the pressure until it does hurt. I agree it is a bite - no bruise or blood though. Yes I try and ignore it but he is a stubborn as me. This was never a problem before but then he did not learn to fly until late last summer and then it has taken some time to learn to maneuver well. Now that I know he will do this, I try and prepare myself so he does not catch me off guard. This way I usually do not react. I guess if he will not stay on a play gym, I can't give him undivided attention, or handle the bite, this is where the cage comes in.... :( I am hoping 'trick' training will help with this. And longer flights in the house.

Claire & MissK - do you mind providing some information regarding your parrot experience? I have taken note of numerous links you have provided others. Most I had located already. One I had forgotten about, so thank-you. Any books/video you found particularly helpful?
Mary
MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

What kind of information, like a parrot c.v.? :lol:

I kept a Budgie for nine years quite a few years ago, and read everything parrot I could throughout that time. I was keenly interested in a larger bird, but recognized it was not the right time in life for that.
Three years ago I decided I might let myself keep a Ringneck, and for a solid year did reading and research to support that possibility.
Two years ago I located the second hand adult bird who seemed right for me. I brought him home and we have been learning from each other ever since. I am very proud of his accomplishments.
One year ago I started bringing home young Budgies from the pet store, and now I have a total of four, which I feel is the maximum number of Budgies for me.
I continue to read books, magazines, and internet as the opportunity presents, along with this forum. I try to talk about birds with other bird keepers as they cross my path in life, and did participate in a bird club for a year and a half. I recently quit it due to scheduling trouble.

My favourite areas of interest, with regard to parrots, are second hand birds, environmental enrichment, and superior husbandry, all with a focus on including as much natural elements as possible. I have a history of keeping a variety of animals, not least of which would be my dogs, and I am thrilled that some of my prior learning is applicable to keeping parrots. I feel that a sense of love and compassion, coupled with practicality and attention to detail, and an interest in learning more are some of the most helpful aspects of my personality for keeping animals of any kind.

In keeping with my interests, the first book I recommend would be Karen Pryor's _Don't Shoot The Dog_. I feel that a complete novice, if dedicated, can learn enough from this book to satisfy most training desires. I initiated a thread, which admittedly I don't read much :oops: , soliciting research recommendations from others on this forum. http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... it=step+up It is my hope that this thread will also be a resource for others who might be looking for something to read.
-MissK
InTheAir
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by InTheAir »

I attended a talk by Barbara and Pamela Clark last winter. It was well worth it. If you can get to one, definitely do it.

I say ouch if my guys beak me hard when they are playing, they are usually pretty gentle though. They have never been very interested in chewing on flesh as a game, they find fingernails or my necklace much more fun. :mrgreen:
Is there a chance he has learnt to bite you in that situation you described to get your full attention? Our guys love to have our undevided attention.
Ringnecks do seem to be pretty sensitive birds, even Nila gets a bit shy of strangers if he hasn't seen any for a month or so. But he soon relearns that strangers can be fun.

Btw, a warning on connect 4 pieces- Sapphire with the giant beak can fit the whole thing in her beak. .. I don't think she can swallow them, but I'm not prepared to leave her with them to find out!

I don't have any parrot experience or parrot credentials, besides my 2 munchkins. I've worked with quite a few other animals and, if you disregard the dissimilarities, there is a basic rule of cause and effect and need to read and respect body language and change your approach if necessary.
I just read everything I can find, I think I'm turning into a parrot trivia dictionary! The manual of parrot behaviour (link provided on missks thread) is well worth looking over. I've only read some selected chapters so far and find it very interesting.
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Hi MissK - well done :wink: Now I know who I am getting advice from. I am familiar with 'Don't Shoot the Dog' - I wish underneath the title it read "shoot the owner" and I have read the thread you linked up. So when is your book coming out?
Mary
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by AJPeter »

I bought that book "Don't shoot the dog." I put it down and now l cannot find it, l think l read 6 pages
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

I bought a dog training book from an SPCA fund raiser. The cover and corner had obviously been chewed by a dog. I wonder if the book helped them at all? Do you have a dog? Maybe he ate it?
Mary
MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

AJ~ I was so pleased that you bought that book. I wish you would read some more of it!

MY dog ate the cover off a book about rocks. What does that tell us? No, she's not a Labrador.....

Mary~ Would you favour us with your parrot c.v.? :wink:

There is no book forthcoming from me. That was just some fun other people made up. I agree I might have a book in me, but I'm *far* too lazy to bring that about. :D
-MissK
InTheAir
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by InTheAir »

Nila really enjoyed the new book my bf bought me recently! It was about asiatic parrot colour mutations. He thought it tasted great. Being Nila, he probably read it as he went and probably has a far better understanding of genetics than me!
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by AJPeter »

I have this brilliant filing system every thing goes into a bix box, every so often l give it a stir and what ever comes out on top gets dealt with, somethings take years to go through the system no matter how hard you wish.

There ought to be four types of bite the fourth for people who keep going off thread.
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by AJPeter »

How about a Appenzell mountain dog MissK?
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

I can't. I'm full up of dogs already.
-MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by AJPeter »

MY dog ate the cover off a book about rocks. What does that tell us? No, she's not a Labrador.....

Is your dog a Appenzil mountain dog?
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by sanjays mummi »

Called "Rocky" by any chance?,
MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

Oh! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You guys made a funny!
:P
She's not a mountain dog - but she is a little mutty.
-MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

MissK - enough of this talk about 'laziness.' I do not buy it one book..oops that's funny, I meant bit. Haha - amazing what one finds when one proof reads.

You mean with all my typing and long posts, it does not count as my parrot c.v.? I am sure I have written just about everything. Did you read my entry under 'Why is it?' Hmmm..perhaps I should go re-read it just in case I bared too much of my sole and should edit it first.
Mary
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

AJPeter - so labs are no different over there in England? When I was much younger, and worker in a vet clinic, we had a lab that came in about once a year to have a rock or two removed from its stomach.
Mary
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Claire - going back to your Apr 2 post - I did actually type a reply, hit the save draft button so I could do something else, and returned to find....nothing! The draft may have been saved, but as to where it is, I have no idea. So here goes my second attempt...

re: Barbara - her Oct date has been confirmed & as of yesterday spots were still available. I am waffling with regard to taking one of my birds. Skye - the IRN - would be the bird to take but he is flighted. It took him so long to figure out flying and it has changed him for the positive, so I have some concern about clipping his wings. If I can successfully train him to harness or not to fly off his perch unless I 'allow' it, I am not convinced I would still need to take him there. Observation would likely be adequate. Taking him there would mean an overnight stay in a hotel as well as him being either left in the hotel and/or at the parrot fair in a bird room. I am not sure if all that potential stress is worth it. Not to mention crossing the border in/out of the US. They do have bird passports but if something were to go wrong..... :cry: :o :(

Absolutely, I believe the biting I described taught him a way to get my attention. Sorry I was not co clear about that. It is why I was wondering how other people dealt with beaking, if it progressed to harder bites. I think not responding back-fired in this case. I think I should have sounded like an injured bird so he knew he was hurting me. That is what I do now, if I do not manage to avoid the bite. It seems to be working. Except, when it came to the buttons. He was mad that I would not let him remove them from my shirts and I have no doubt he wanted to let me know.

Thanks for the heads up about the Connect Four pieces but I am super cautious about what the birds get. In that same vein of thought, a lot of people give softer plastics and rubber that the birds chew apart. They do not seem to worry about ingestion because they do not believe it to be a possible blockage problem. First, toxins still get found in plastics/rubber that are supposed to be child safe. Two, I have talked to my vet about this, and she has said that she will incidentally discover a parrot has a crop full of plastic/rubber when she takes an x-ray. She is not convinced these birds will not have some type of problem related to this in the future.

I have downloaded the pdf file for " The Manual of Parrot Behaviour." Can't believe I have missed this. So thanks to both you & MissK.

Have you read any of Barbara's books or just her blogs? I have read her first book "Good Bird" is perhaps a little too superficial. Reviews of 'The Parrot Problem Solver' range from 'too basic, no usefully info' to 'for advanced persons with lots of parrot knowledge.' :?: :?: Anyone's thoughts from those that have read the book would be appreciated.
Mary
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

Oooh, now who's lazy? I wrote out my c.v. nice for you, so you wouldn't have to read 2000 posts. :wink:

Where did you all say Barbara is going to be in the US?
-MissK
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by AJPeter »

i have never heard of dogs who ate rocks, although l worked in a pet shop we did not have a license to sell cats and dogs as a previous manager sold unweaned pups. In England poeple in pet shops are not allowed to make a diagnosis but that did not stop me from recomending products, I used to tell customers "It is buy your dog a new collar week!" And they did!
InTheAir
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by InTheAir »

I also worry about my birds ingesting things constantly. They never are given an opportunity to play with connect 4 pieces outside of training. Sapphire doesn't get rope perches in her cage either, as she chews them. Nila used to destroy plastic farm animals, I'm pretty sure he spits all the pieces of though.

I haven't read any of Barbaras books. I've watched a few of her videos. They weren't a style that appealed to me personally, but I highly recommend them for beginners. I got a lot out of seeing her talk in person though. I don't think bringing your bird is necessary to getting a lot out of the workshop, especially as it will be harder to concentrate when you are worrying about whether your bird is comfortable! It's definitely not worth clipping a bird for! !!! That would defeat the purpose of force free training really. ..

I am not very convinced on not responding to bites. Mostly it is my fault if my birds get upset with me. I am capable of convincing them to like things if I handle them the right way, so if they bite me it's my own stupid fault!
The beaking thing hasn't become an issue, maybe because I have diverted it from the start, or maybe my birds just aren't that beaky. I don't see that ignoring that kind of attention has any advantage.
I think "not reacting" may be translated to "don't jump up and down screaming at the top of your lungs" rather than "just let that greenwing chew your finger off, be cool". 8)
What do you guys think?
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by MissK »

I tend to agree with that last bit. Since the beak is used to gather information, I don't see why it should not get a response. What kind of response is important, though.
-MissK
SkyeBerry
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

Well, looks like at least the three of us can join the group - "Ouch that hurts- gentle please!"

MissK - now remember, I did not call you lazy. I am quite sure I stated I did not believe you are lazy. And I must admit, that I did reread what I had typed - it was even longer than I remembered. So sorry. And I have felt quite ashamed. :oops: My head hangs very low. It would be cruel and unusual punishment to make anyone read all that dribble. So I hope you did not.

Here is goes, my parrot c.v:
My mom bought me two lovebirds. Ages unknown. One was very nice. And one was...well, a female. Oh that is so mean, but she was. Definitely, not the worst and she mellowed a lot until she died in her sleep one night. It was her mate's reaction to her death that really endeared these birds to me. I won't go into it because I am tearing up just thinking about it; but, it was a struggle to keep him alive the first year. He would not eat on his own. I had to hand-feed him multiply times a day, and this is also when I met my avian vet - who I feel lucky to know.. I tried to find him a buddy. He did not fight with the new bird but it did not help his depression. So of course I ended up getting a third bird so that the new bird had a buddy. Although no breeding has occurred, I seem to have 9 lovebirds now. The second of the original pair, did finally start eating on its own but it remained very close to me until it died, about 3 yrs later. I also had two budgies during this time - lived 8 & 12 yrs - both were euthanized - cancer. I do not really pay attention to birthdays etc so I would have to call the vet, but I think this span was about 12-13yrs???

After a very wonderful dog named Emma died, I decided that I would not get a second dog again. Instead, I thought I would try a larger parrot. Seeing a green-cheek conure at a rescue, lead me to research them, which lead me to a pineapple conure and eventually the sun conure. I became smitten. As you have probably read, Sunny and Skye were each the last of their clutch and the breeder put them together. I did feel a little guilty not getting a rescue bird but this lady had only bred birds a few years and had decided not to continue. My vet was also familiar with her and her birds and had nothing but good things to say, and that made me comfortable dealing with her. That's it folks.
Mary
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Re: Three types of Bites?

Post by SkyeBerry »

for Lazy MissK :wink: - re: Barbara - you can use the link below - click on 'Calendar' - then 'upcoming dates' from the drop down box. There are quite a few US dates. I am interested in the Oct. Seattle dates as this is the closest to me.

http://www.goodbirdinc.com/barbaraheidenreich-bio.html
Mary
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