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how to improve my relation with my IRN

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mrjoeblack
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how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by mrjoeblack » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:49 am

Hello,

i have bought a IRN two weeks ago, i don't know his age/sex and i don't know if he is wild or bread in cage.
I have clipped his wings the very next day.

within 4 days i manage to let him take treats from my hand. 2 days later he is eating from my hand after fasting him for 6 hours.
I put the seeds up on my wrist in a way that he is obliged stand on my hand to reach it.

but till now i couldn't teach him to stand up on my finger.
he is also get afraid if i approach him out of cage, so he run or hide on the opposite side of the cage.

this is my first bird, so i don't know if things are going right or not.
i feel like he trust me somehow but there is a lot work that must be done in order to pet him.

kindly share your thought about the current progress of the relation and advise how long it will take to pet him and how to expedite this process.

thank you

AJPeter
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by AJPeter » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:58 pm

Hallo and welcome,

Why did you clip his wings? Starving him is cruel.

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InTheAir
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by InTheAir » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:35 pm

Hi,

For a start, go to your birds cage, ensure he has food and fresh water right now.

Depriving him of food for long periods of time is not a good idea!
Firstly, he needs to settle in to his new surroundings. When he feels safe and secure he will be more curious about you.
The best way to make friends with him is to drop his favourite treat into his dish, so he associates you with his favourite food. He should still have his normal food available while you are doing this. My female irns favourite foods are fruit. Leave him to eat his treats in peace.
It takes time to build a relationship, when he is confidently coming up to you for treats even though there is his normal dish of pellets/ seed, then he will be ready to climb on your hand for treats.

I think this is the most effective way to tame an irn: http://learningparrots.com/blog/trainin ... l-parrots/
It is humane and builds a good relationship with the bird.

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Donovan
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by Donovan » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:47 pm

Indian ringnecks don't like being petted except on YouTube.
As far as clipping his wings and working with him while he's hungry, I personally think that it works.

I only have experience with one bird. I never really starved him but there are certain times when he's pretty hungry like just before dark and just after daylight. Instead of feeding him I will play with him. Give him something interesting.. respond to him vs making him respond to me.

And I think clipping wings at first is a good idea .. but let him have them later on.

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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by AJPeter » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:56 pm

Already you have differing points of view which is good, go along with IntheAir, and Donovan they have experience with IRN

MissK
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by MissK » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:16 pm

Hi MrJoe. In my opinion, starving an animal in order to gain compliance is animal abuse. Not only is it unkind and unhealthful, a starving animal is not in a frame of mind to learn. It is in a frame of mind to get something to eat so it will not die. As the hunger increases, so does the animal's desperation to feed. How much are you interested in learning when you are very hungry? I think this is a bad strategy.

A much better strategy, if you must take advantage of a hungry bird's compliance, is to allow the bird to eat the first few bites of a REGULARLY SCHEDULED MEAL from your hand. This means that instead of putting the dish of food right into the cage, you may hold the dish for the bird to eat from. If he eats, then that is good and you can hold the bowl for him until your hand gets tired, then leave it in the cage for him to finish. If, when you offer the food that way, he will not eat, you may hold the bowl for him anyway for as long as you can tolerate standing there, or half an hour, whichever comes first. After that you must leave the food for him in the cage and stop bothering him.

Once the bird will eat from a dish you hold, then you can try asking him to eat from your hand, in the same way.

It is important to understand that if the bird is too scared to come and eat from the hand held bowl, you still have to feed him. You have to provide him food he will eat and ensure he eats it. If he is scared to eat, he will starve instead. As noted above, starving an animal is abuse. If you do this more than once you also could starve your pet right to death, so don't do it.

You said that "within 4 days i manage to let him take treats from my hand." If he willingly takes treats from your hand without you starving him, then you really already have everything you need, as long as you are also patient. All you need to do is make it clear that he will get to eat regular food from his bowl, but in order to get the treat he will have to do what you want. For instance, maybe you give him his regular food but keep back his favourite fruit as a reward for training. This food becomes his bribe for trying to do what you ask. It is your responsibility to not ask for more than he can do. For example, if you want him to wave his foot, you must first teach him that you are interested in that foot, that he needs to do something with it. Then you must teach him he should lift the foot. Then you teach how high. Then you teach what direction. That is how training a bird works.

You said "he is also get afraid if i approach him out of cage, so he run or hide on the opposite side of the cage." This may sound quite simple, but if you do not chase him, then he will not run from you. Understand, his idea of you chasing him could be what you see as approaching the cage. Here, again, is where your training food is used. If you sit still long enough, patiently enough, eventually he will come for that food. Understand, it could take a very long time. It could take a long time of you trying every day. However, consider what is frightening to you. If it chases you, does that make you more or less willing to allow it to approach you? How about if that same thing prepares your very favourite food and places that food between the two of you and then never moves again? How about if, instead of food, it places between you something else you truly desire? How about enough money to buy a house and two cars? It makes this offer every day. And it never moves. It doesn't even look at you. Would you take a chance?

You said "but there is a lot work that must be done in order to pet him." I'm glad you realize this. As Donovan said, Ringnecks don't tend to like petting at all. Please just accept that. If your bird does turn out to accept or enjoy petting, then you will be so happy, and everyone will be amazed. He can learn to tolerate petting, but he must learn to be comfortable and trusting first. And he will have to be carefully taught. Wait on this.

You said "advise how long it will take to pet him and how to expedite this". It will take so long to pet him that you should not set this as a goal for a long time. Let us say think about it next year, perhaps. You have much work to do before then. A bird really cannot be rushed.

You said "kindly share your thought about the current progress of the relation". I think that you have begun trying to build a relationship on an infirm foundation. You need to learn how to train your bird. You have come here looking for help, and this is commendable. I strongly recommend that you carefully read any of the links that InTheAir will provide. If you have any doubt regarding her ability and expertise as a bird trainer, you may only look at her videos of her bird performing the tricks she has already taught him. Here is one video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFczHiD7 ... e=youtu.be Here is another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJLlLz_RBvI

Note that I did not have much to say about clipping the wings. I believe it is a mistake that a sensitive person will come to regret, in addition to being counterproductive in the process of forming a trusting relationship with the bird. And I feel it promotes biting. Do you like biting?
-MissK

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Redzone
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by Redzone » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:24 am

This article explains why learning to fly is important for the development of a young bird:

http://theparrotuniversity.com/flight

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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by AJPeter » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:48 pm

Great reply missK l endorse all you say, but would like to add your reputation for long replies is well earned!

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Donovan
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:54 pm

To be fair,
This guy never said anything about starving his bird

MissK
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by MissK » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:58 pm

Well, Donovan, you're right. He used the word "fasted" instead of "starved". He fasted his bird for six hours until it was hungry enough to disregard its instinct for self preservation. I consider you a friend, and I don't mean to sound snotty, but I probably do. Sorry about that.
-MissK

Little Buttercup
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by Little Buttercup » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:18 pm

Lets put it like this: Is fasting a bird for 6 hours starving? After how many hours of fasting would it be considered starving? I really don't know the answer, someone more knowlegable, please answer. I only know to give them as much food as they want and they still take treats from my hand even if its just to take it and drop it on the floor. Then I pick it up and give it again later. But maybe that would'nt work with a bird that is taking from your hand the first time. But anyhow I never withheld food for any length of time. Yes before giving breakfast I would try the treats and after the afternoon nap when I know he will be wanting to eat, even though there is food left in the cage, so before he goes to the food I give from my hand.

Ash

MissK
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by MissK » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:34 pm

Ash, for an academic discussion, I looked into the online dictionary, and the impression I came away with was the fasting seemed to have an element of choice and the starving seemed to have an element of suffering or harm. When a fast is imposed by someone else, the element of choice is removed. I guess that leaves us to ask if withholding all food for six hours contributes to suffering. Perhaps the word choice is not so important as the concept. Would we be having the same conversation if I had said "withholding all food" instead of "starving"?

Will folks be more comfortable if I say it this way: "In my opinion, withholding all food from an animal in order to gain compliance is animal abuse. Not only is it unkind and unhealthful, a very hungry animal is not in a frame of mind to learn. It is in a frame of mind to get something to eat so it will not die. As the hunger increases, so does the animal's desperation to feed. How much are you interested in learning when you are very hungry? I think this is a bad strategy."

If it makes folks happy for me to adjust the vocabulary, then I can do that. I don't think it changes the concept. Lack of food drives the bird to face something it fears. Is that not abuse? How would it be if a parent refused to give a child any food for six hours and then required the child to perform a feared act in order to be fed? A child will not perish from skipping a few meals. Is it not abuse to force little Johnny to do something that makes him shake in his boots just to get a meal?
-MissK

mrjoeblack
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by mrjoeblack » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:44 pm

Dears,

Thanks for everyone replied to my question.
i just would like to clarify and i have never starve my bird. I do care about him and i love him as well.

i have clipped his wings because on the second day he escaped form the cage and he was flying all over the room.
he hit the glass of the window many times while trying to escape and this could easily hurt him. i have clipped his wings in the right way after reading and watching videos how to do it. Actually hearing him screaming in my hands while holding him for the first time broke my heart.

As for removing the food from the cage - i have read on many websites that this will motivate your bird to break his fear and approach you. Actually it had worked for me in a way or anther. however I'm not planing to continue doing it beacuse i will not need it anymore. He is letting me come closer to him more everyday inside or outside the cage.

But i have never starve him. i was removing the food in the morning after he had already ate some and will return it around 1. so i think its OK.

From my experience with the IRN (which is very poor) i can see that they are an intelligent and sensitive birds and im sure that i will fully tame him.

however, there is many articles and posts on the nets saying the the bird can be tamed in 3 hours if he is young or a 1 week if he is older. I'm not sure how true this is but if it was true this means that somehow you should motivate/push your bird to break his fear limits otherwise it will take a very long time to be able to tame it.

cheers

MissK
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by MissK » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:43 am

I said what I had to say and I stand by it.
I will now withdraw from the discussion of starving/fasting/withholding food for six hours.
-MissK

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Donovan
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by Donovan » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:31 am

Yeah you don't have to make the bird go without food even for a little while. They still get hungry even when food is available all the time.

My bird gets pellets and/or seed during the day. At night it's supper time (real food). I'll notice he has hardly touched his food all day sometimes, and of course when I come home he wants his supper, so I can tell he's hungry despite having access to food already. So I take this opportunity to re-hash things we've learned before like fetch or come here, etc.

So, the point is, you can still have the hunger element without removing food bowls. Eating while interacting is far more interesting than a boring old bowl of food.

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InTheAir
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by InTheAir » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:56 pm

There are heaps of different ways to train a bird, but they are not all equal. They range from great to psychologically and physically harmful.

Any techniques that promise the bird will be tame within a certain time frame is worth being wary of. Every bird is different and ever trainer is different. If the advice given does not take this into account, it is probably relying on not allowing the bird an element of choice in the training process.

I used my irns natural greed to overcome her fear of me. She likes fruit best, so all the fruit for her diet was dropped into the dish in small pieces throughout the day. She had dishes of seed, pellets and vegetables available all the time.
She soon started to associate my presence with her favourite foods and would approach me. After that she decided that fruit was worth climbing on my hand to get to.


I made a thread to clarify different techniques viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18946 I haven't gone into a lot of detail on all the different factors that are at play, but I can if anyone is actually interested.

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Donovan
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by Donovan » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:58 pm

InTheAir wrote:
I used my irns natural greed to overcome her fear of me.
There is a huge amount of potential in this statement, I like it.

I ordered a bunch of new toys from some website recently. Well, one of them turned out to be a huge wicker toy and my bird is scared of it. . In fact he won't even go to the part of the room where it's hanging anymore.

I have set some peanuts onto it. Yesterday when he was in a treat frenzy I went near the toy. I held my hand out to the toy and put a piece of peanut halfway up my arm. He had to go towards the toy to get the peanut. He did it 3 times. He's still scared of it, and you should have seen him reaching for the treats as far as he could. As soon as he grabbed the treat he flew off quickly.

Now, should I leave the toy there so he gets used to it?
Was having him walk towards the toy to get a treat a proper form of positive reinforcement?
These are passing thoughts I suppose. What I want is for him to land on it and start destroying it, but there's just something about it.

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InTheAir
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by InTheAir » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:15 am

:lol: people who pay in peanuts get irns as well as monkeys :wink:

If you continue that route he will soon come to associate the toy with good stuff and realise it's harmless. I think bringing the bird towards the toy is a much less threatening way to introduce the toy than bringing the toy to him (because your bird is flighted, a clipped bird would need more caution).
Nila was terrified of new toys when we got him, but after a few months of reward based training he got to the point of helping me unpack shopping bags when I walk into the house. He thinks anything new may have the potential to earn him sunflower seeds (which his vet very much disapproves of him having).
Read through this, it'll help in every aspect of parrot keeping
http://www.goodbirdinc.com/parrot-train ... ology.html

SkyeBerry
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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by SkyeBerry » Mon May 26, 2014 5:24 pm

anyone interested in this thread might also be interested in the following:

Weight Management in Animal Training:Pitfalls, Ethical Considerations and Alternative Options By Barbara Heidenreich, Barbara’s Force Free Animal Training, http://www.BarbarasFFAT.com)

http://www.goodbirdinc.com/pdf/Heidenre ... 5e9aac1b88
Mary

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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by AJPeter » Tue May 27, 2014 12:04 pm

Oh dear what can the matter be Missk come back all is forgiven, l do not think l can last much longer without MissK.

Personally the idea of making a pet do something unatural for them, in return for a reward is abhorrent to me. I think l will join MissK in her corner/

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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by MissK » Tue May 27, 2014 12:06 pm

I'm not in the corner; I'm playing with my bird!
-MissK

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Re: how to improve my relation with my IRN

Post by AJPeter » Tue May 27, 2014 12:36 pm

Oh l was going to write

Little Missk sat in the corner
eating bird seed
along came a spider
and sat down by her
and scared little MissK away.

But now l cannot, l shall go and play with my bird/

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