New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him.

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Abbi30
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New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him.

Post by Abbi30 »

Hey guys.

I was hoping someone could be of some assistance. We have recently purchased a hand reared and hand tamed IRN. He is 4 months old and we have had him for a week. He is just getting used to his cage and his surroundings and eats his seeds and fruits nicely and happy to eat them out of his cage.
We are struggling to allow him to get close to him, he moves away and attempts to fly away, he has clipped wings so we are scared that he might hurt himself.

Does anyone have any idea how we can get close to him and get him to step up or start trusting us?

Thanks in advance.

Abbi
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by AJPeter »

it is all to do with building trust between you Heisenbird. I would recomend you site by his cage as often as you can. Eat your meals in front of hlm, offer him treats between the bars. If you put a lot a small items sead pellets fruit veg int front of him see what he goes for first this could become a treat. Gradually he will learn to trust you and then you can start getting close to him/
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Taming is a regular conversation on this forum, if you search the forum you will find a lot of posts on the subject.

I'm a total fan of this method:
http://learningparrots.com/blog/trainin ... l-parrots/
I have had great success using this style of trust building on my young aviary raised bird, I highly recommend reading it!

Depending on how nervous your bird is when you are near his cage, reading a book or doing something nearby can be useful. It is very important not to park yourself closer than he is comfortable with, as he is stuck in the cage and cannot get away to a safer spot.
If he starts climbing up the back wall of the cage you're too close for comfort. If the bird is comfortable about the distance between you, he will be more curious and more inclined to check you out than he would if you are close enough to make him nervous.

Lots of patience is essential! The trick is to convince the parrot that it wants to come near you.

Regards,
Claire
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Thank you guys for your advice. Ill try and put some fruit and other treats for him, i think currently the cage doesn't allow to leave treats unless i leave them in the feeding tray.
In terms of his confidence he turns around when i get closer to him, he is maybe a meter away from where we sit and he sits on the other side of the perch. When he is out and perching on top of the cage, he goes to the back and hangs on the cage. Ill move him maybe next to the couch and like you said maybe read or talk to him more by sitting next to him.

Would still appreciate any other ideas toooo :D

Abbi & Heisenbird
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by AJPeter »

If you do not have enough feeding bowls could use a small china bowl to put inside your seed bowl for treats and take that out when treat time is over. You can buy extra feeding bowls to hang on the side of the cage but if you are using a feeding bowl to hold water it would be better to use a water bottle with ball bearing in spout, and that would free up a feeding bowl for treats/fresh fruit
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Hi Abbi,

Did you get a chance to look over the learning parrots site?
I'm afraid there is no quick fix taming method, it all depends how well you can show the bird that you are trustworthy. I didn't spend a lot of time in the same room as my new bird when I got her, but I would go into her room and drop a treat in her dish at least once an hour when I was home. I started spending more time with her when she had calmed down enough to approach me for treats.
Knowing you're birds favourite food is a great help. Mine loves most fruit, especially apples and sprouted sunflower seeds.
This post is a run down on how I worked with my new bird:
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=18181
If your bird is hand raised it shouldn't take long for him to accept you.

If your bird is hanging back from you, I'd say you're too close. Leaving treats and moving away so he can eat them in peace will give him a chance to associate you with good things.

Some people use force to make the bird accept them, I haven't delved into that myself, but going by posts I have seen, it seems to be a reliable way to teach ringnecks to bite you!

If you choose to use a water bottle, do your homework first. Parrots like to bathe regularly.
Also water bottles can get stuck, depriving the bird of water completely. I wouldn't use them for this reason.
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Water bottles tempt the human to lapse on hygiene. Beware. Also, some birds actually stuff bits of food up in there. Unless you're a fan of the bottle brush, think twice.

On a side note, I have a nice water bottle for sale, cheap......... :lol:
-MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by AJPeter »

I would rather have a water bottle than contaminated water MissK, but each to their own, how much do you want for the water bottle? I could do with a spare, l agree with you though that water bottles have to be watched because the ball can get stuck, and maybe the water is not changed as often as it should on one hand but, well enough said
Tyeman
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

dont forget your happy voice.. and confidence those 2 always help along with eye contact
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Thank you guys for the further advice.

In the air: i really like the approach you mentioned, it seems more natural. Yeah its only been 2 weeks tomorrow and maybe I'm being a little apprehensive. We are trying different foods with him, trying a range of nuts and in terms of fresh fruit, he has a nibble at apples and bananas but loves grapes. we've put a range of nuts in the cage in a small bowl like suggested and will see what he prefers. Ive tried millet spray and he doesn't seem to eat that. Any veg in particular, we tried peppers, gonna try carrots next. He is happy when he's out and chills on the horse shoe as i think he likes the reflection from the window. He is still hiding when close but he happily 'steps up' onto a perch when playing and when i wanna take him to the cage to eat or bedtime. But he still panics when i move close to him and is still turning his back. We have moved things around and have placed a couch closer to him to become more familiar.

POA: will try treats every now and again and leave him to it.
Continue giving him his chill out time outside as much as possible ( i don't know if this is a good thing or not).
Keep trying to find his favourite food.

Also spoke to the guy who reared and tamed him and he's willing to come round and see if he can try some trust building exercises. Watch this space.

Thanks again (and as always any advice is good advice, so i really appreciate any tips)
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Abbi ~ I'm sorry he's turning his back. Really, I interpret this exactly as it looks. : ( It's good news the original owner will make some time for you, really, that's great! Go ahead and drop the food in the feed dish if you must, but let the bird see you do it. Keep trying to find that jackpot value food.

AJ ~ If you picked it up here, it would be free! :mrgreen:
-MissK
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Progress: Very little progress made. he is hanging back when we are approaching, i have attempted stopping and allowing him to get comfortable. I let him out to roam the room when i am at home and he is happy to chill on the clothes horse where he sees a reflection in a window i think. He's good in stepping up on a stick and then going back to his cage BUT i have tried to keep him on the stick for a prolonged period as to move him closer to me and gain trust but he isn't having any of this. Ifi leave him grapes as treats in the cage he will happily eat them when we have left his 'area'.
He is still turning his back when he is around.

We sit roughly 2.5 metres away from him and he is facing us and even this distance he is turning his back when we sit and are watching telly.

So all in all still struggling with gaining his trust.

Abbi
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

I think you should back up some. If he is still turning his back at this distance, you are still too close. Also, the television might be bothering him, and not really yourself. Can you be in the next room where he can watch you eating?
-MissK
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

I second what Missk says.
Also, the favourite foods you use as treats should not be part of his normal meals. This gives them more desirability. Ringnecks fill up quite easily, so small portions of the treat is a good idea. At that age birds are less food motivated, their instincts are all about learning to fly well and being light enough to do it. Maybe quarter of a grape at a time.
I overfed treats to Sapphire when she first stepped up, which meant that she had no motivation to step up after I had let her out of the cage. I had to wait several hours before she was hungry enough to be motivated to step up and be returned to the cage!

Do you reward him when he steps up on the stick?

Did the former owner come give you some tips and show you how he worked with the bird.
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Hey guys. Cheers for that.

The room is an open plan, kitchen, lounge and diner. i will take a picture later and show you (if you think i should move his cage).
He steps up on a stick when i take him back to his cage in the evening etc and if he needs to eat. He doesn't get close enough to me when he's on a stick for me to give him treats from my hand, he panics and try's to fly away.

As of yet the previous handler hasn't got back to us yet.

Do yo have any thoughts on letting him out of his cage (time periods) as he is being like this? I let him out when i am in the house and he is caged up with a tv or a radio on for him. Or is letting him out and given him his food etc not giving him any reason to get close to us?
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

I can only see the freedom from the cage providing him physical and mental exercise - not a bad thing UNLESS returning him to the cage is not on his terms. That is to say, if you need to chase or capture him that would be clearly detrimental. If he goes home on his own or for a lure, then out time is probably ideal, regardless of his tameness level.

I would put that TV or radio on a timer. Nobody needs that all day long, and he is unlikely to think it's really you. The main benefit of keeping noise on is to prevent dead silence, which would (in the wild) suggest a predator is near. Another strategy would be to put it on very, very low, and not too close to him.

The cage should be situated against a wall, or in a corner for an extremely fearful bird. It should be where the bird can see activity of the house without being in the midst of commotion. So, typically, the living room yes, the hallway no. The bird should also be situated where he can see people approach not popping suddenly around the corner and surprising him. It doesn't matter if the plan is open or with separate rooms. The thing is that you need to be far away enough that he can watch you without concern you are too close. As he gets familiar, he should be relaxing.

Also, while many older books will tell you against this, be sure he has a high perch. When the bird can get up high he feels safer. Make it eye level for you or higher. If you ever do get closer to the cage, consider a short stool to sit on while you talk to him. Your bird cant relax and make friends if he's always watching his back.
-MissK
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Missk.

Yeah, i tend to leave the tv or radio on for background noise. As you mention it, going back to his cage is becoming more difficult, he does wanna fly away. :(
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AJPeter
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by AJPeter »

Could l recommend that Abbi you cover the cage with a thick cloth at night when you are watching TV. They need 12 to 14 hours sleep and best not to have the TV sound up. When Billie goes to bed and l want to watch TV l do so with headphones so as not to disturb her.

I may have to take a rain check on the water bottle MissK.

The window looks large Abbi when you bird is out flying it will be a big temptation to head for the outside, either keep the curtains closed when he is out or have some net/lace/muslim curtain hanging up, if he flies into that window he could break his neck.
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Hey abbi,

I am viewing this thread from my phone, so I may be misinterpreting the photo. From my phone, that cage looks extremely small for a ringneck. Also, birds are usually more comfortable when they are up high, like eye level to us when we are standing. Their instincts are all about getting to a high place when threatened.
Do you have a nice stand for him to play on when he is out of the cage?

Missk will be along shortly with some better advice on cage dimensions etc, I am sure. :wink:
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Aj: Yeah I cover him at night when he goes to sleep and he hasn't tried to go for the window yet but I'll use the curtains from now.

In the air: The cage was recommended by the dude i bought it off, reason given was if it is quite big then he would be more comfortable to stay in and not want to interact outside???
I am looking at buying a perch for him atm but currently he happily uses the clothes horse which is quite high as a substitute. I have moved him from his position in the photo to the window you can see. I will take a picture which is closer to give a better idea of dimensions...

ha ha, both of you are my silver lining atm with him. Kinda at a loose end.

Abbi
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Hmm. ... I really don't think a big cage hinders taming at all, most bird cages are not exactly huge anyway. I would think that a scared bird would be more likely to relax when he is in a cage that is larger, as he feels safer and not cornered, and it's easier to work with a more relaxed bird. If he was in a giant free flight aviary, it would be a problem to get his attention... but you wouldn't have one in a house anyway.
Nilas cage is 2m long and he is always keen to come out and play!

I have read some stuff about cage positioning by well respected parrot behaviorists that advises not to position a cage too close to a window, as the bird can feel very exposed. I think miss k summed positioning a cage up well in her last post.

For myself, the best thing I have found for working with birds is having no expectations of the bird and no time frame. It takes as long as it takes for the bird to decide what kind of relationship you will have. ... I don't know if that's helpful to you. I really enjoy watching our birds play and do their thing, whether it is with me or not.
I would be getting him the biggest cage you can fit/afford (with appropriate bar spacing for a small bird), buying him some nice toys, foraging and otherwise and watching him enjoy it, while still keeping up your taming efforts. Drop a yummy treat in the cage every time you walk past it, tell him how beautiful he is, you will win him over with love!

My Sapphire took a few weeks to accept me and I had previous experience reading birdy body language, as well as a very well researched plan of how to work with her. I made a huge effort to stick to this consistently, so she never felt I was going to trespass into her space without permission. I didn't let her out of her cage until she was vaguely tame, I felt a bit cruel but I didn't want to have to force her to go back in by catching her or using a net (both my birds have always been fully flighted).
You are doing great that he will step onto a stick and eat treats, keep up the good work.
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

I cannot make a real post right now since I am not home, but yes, right now, move that cage up high. You can put that stool on top a table for a decent height. And I agree. That cage pictured would make a lovely sleep cage. He needs something more like 36 inches wide and as tall.

Catch you later.
-MissK
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

In the air: so when you didn't let sapphire out of the cage until semi tamed, what does that include, collecting food from hand and stepping up on hand from the cage? I suppose it makes nonsense going back a few steps eh.
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

I let Rocky out as soon as he would follow a food lure - which was pretty soon!
-MissK
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

I waited until she didn't panic when I was in the room and would be lured, come towards me to eat treats. She was completely not tame when I got her and would panic fly across her cage if I moved anywhere near her.


As missk said, if you can get your bird in the cage without scaring him, it's great for him to have time out of the cage.
Tyeman
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

seeing as its a young hand tamed bird if it still isnt coming round to you by now i would recomend using the sock over hand method and just pick him up and let him realise you mean no harm...

The longer he goes without contact the harder its going to be to ever get him back to tame... dont be afraid to get bitten lol just try and not react when you get bitten
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

The theory behind grabbing the bird and holding it is here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Tyeman ~I really would recommend against flooding. It's clear to see the bird is in a cage too small in an extremely vulnerable location. He's scared and it will do no good to scare him further. At this point the very least he needs is to be raised so his high perch is at least 5 feet from the floor. This alone should have a profound impact on his well-being.

Abbi has been very poorly served by the seller of the bird and cage, and now he needs some real help. There is no judgement here, well, not of Abbi, anyway. His cage seller is on my black list. I had high hopes for the seller to help Abbi learn how to make friends with Heisenbird but my hopes are fading fast. If this is the same individual who sold that tiny cage, they're going to be no help at all.

Abbi ~ I think, if the bird was truly hand tamed to start with, he should be able to recover in fairly short order, once his needs are met. I cannot stress this enough, if you have not yet raised that cage, stand up and go do it right now. If you have raised the cage, then you should now start shopping for a more suitable one. You can keep that little one for a sleep or travel cage, or you can maybe see if the seller will take it back since you need larger. Don't fall for the "no refund but you can use the cost towards a different cage". You don't want to do any more business with that person.

Your new cage doesn't really have to be huge, but you should try for it to be at least 36" wide and tall, and (hopefully) more than 20" front to back. I'll bet my ball of jute that little cage is 18" square. If you're in the USA, Petco sells several cages that would be a dramatic step up from what you have, and with free shipping. Check these out. If you don't have other pets like dogs or cats, this might be ideal: http://www.petco.com/product/112008/Pre ... -Cage.aspx If you need it to sit a little higher, this one is also very nice: http://www.petco.com/product/118292/HQ- ... Stand.aspx This next one is, I think, still on the small side, but attractive. I have it for when my bird is going to spend a lot of time in a different area of the house: http://www.petco.com/product/114149/Pet ... -Cage.aspx And, if you'd like to indulge the little guy, consider this: http://www.petco.com/product/122696/HQ- ... -Cage.aspx Incidentally, that last one is the one I have for my bird's every day cage. If strongly pressed, I *might* admit it could possibly be larger than he absolutely needs, but who doesn't want to give their bird the best they can?

Abbi, once you get Heisenbird situated properly, you'll be able to apply the strategies that have not worked yet, and most likely they will succeed. You have the whole forum behind you if they are not enough. It's going to be OK!
Last edited by MissK on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-MissK
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

I am genuinely touched by my he help you guys are offering and have offered so far. In regards to the bird cages I'm in the uk so I'm currently hunting down a larger cage. I hve raised the current cage by another 2 ft with a stool. I don't have anything else atm to raise him with.

The owner hasn't got back to me after several phone calls and messages. I'm assuming he's not going to turn up.

That's the first plan of action. Secondly it seems missk has made me into a female but with all the help she's given me im sure I can deal with that ;p.

Thanks again guys. Let's see how we go with this and I'll keep you updated.
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

In regards to letting him out, as he doesn't follow any foid lure and he still panics in the cage, should I be letting him out?
When he is out I was getting him up on a stick and he would step up and I can take him to the cage but he is now associating that with going back to the cage so I have stopped.
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Sorry Abbi. Where I am, this is a girlie name, and I didn't think it right to peek so soon after meeting...... I'll make the necessary edit.

I would actually advise keep him in the cage for now, till the bigger one comes. Then work on him for the food lure. With your open spaces it would be a lot of trouble getting him back into a cage he doesn't like. When the time comes, try the high ticket foods for the lure, like nuts, apple, large seeds.

Here's a likely looking cage, though it says the bars are "chrome". That would be extraordinarily unlikely in the US, that it would be made of chrome, so I would say do some research if you like this one. Maybe Chrome means something else in the UK. "Stainless steel" (USA) is the only acceptable material for bars coloured "chrome". http://www.amazon.co.uk/LARGE-BECKINGHA ... +bird+cage
How about this? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prevue-Products ... +bird+cage
The biggest size of this one looks kind of interesting, but I confess my eyes are starting to glaze over and I didn't look at the features. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Montana-Villa-C ... rrot++cage
-MissK
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

We have an open top dome style cage at work for Nila and we find the dome makes hanging foraging toys a bit awkward. I prefer a flat top. The last cage looked interesting though.
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Miss k, it's KP worries, lol! I wasn't even going to correct you out of politeness. It's a shortened version.
Right I've moved him up and I'll see the effects after work today and I'm on the lookout for a new cage for hopefully the end of the week.

Just a quick question, silly as it sounds. By food lure you mean, leaving it in his cage/tempting him with certain treats and if he collects from me?

So far he's ok with nuts, tried cashews and couple others, fruits(apples, bananas), haven't been a winner except grapes. But I'm still trying with that.

It seems I'm going back to square one which I am happy to do so!! As long as we get to a stage where the bird is comfortable etc.

I love how you guys have found me some links. I do like the last one.
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Hi Abbi,

The nice thing about going back to square one is that, assuming he was really hand tamed to start, it's just going to be a refresher course for him. If there are any sticky points, you'll find and fix them before you go trying to build on a behaviour that isn't there. It might go slower than you want due to the scare he has had but unless you tortured and chased him (doubt it!) he should be quick. Be sure you take some quiet daytime naps on that sofa so he can watch you sleep.

When you find your cage, be sure to check a couple of sellers because prices for the same cage can vary in a silly way.

Food lure basics ~
Introduce tempting foods to the bird and make note of his very favourites. These will be your training treats, of which the lure is one. Lay the foods on a sheet of paper or a plate in the cage. Use binoculars if you must.

Once you ID the great food, give some to the bird. If he is fearful and won't come near, give him a signal before you approach so he will later be able to know that food is on the way to him. That gives incentive to come near. For example:
Abbi: Here Comes Peanuts! (walks to cage)
Bird retreats in cage.
Abbi: (softly) Peanuts! (drops a peanut in the dish and goes away)
Bird eventually eats peanut.

After a while, the bird will know that when you call "Here come peanuts" that a treat is coming. He will be more eager to see you and your peanuts. When he's ready, he will stop retreating and wait closer for the nuts. At that time you can start offering the peanut by hand through the bars before you drop it in the cup.

When you drop it in the cup, then retreat to the closest "safe" distance while he eats the nut. As he gets more eager to approach for the peanut, reduce it's size. The goal is ultimately a bit just big enough for him to perceive he got something.

At this point, when he will reliably go to the food cup when you say "Peanuts" and drop some in, he is following the lure. Of course, the lure isn't moving very much. But, when you drop the lure in different places, and he goes to get it, you have an effective tool for moving him. This it the time to let him out.

You will close off the space as well as you can, put down any hazards (turn off and cool the stove, cover the windows, hang a curtain in the doorways to restrict passage, close the toilet, still the fan, etc), and open the cage door. Very nice would be to put a food cup on the outside of the cage, so you can direct him to that spot. Later, that can be a a little transition station, if you like, a place for him to stop a minute on the way in and out. On the way back in, of course, after you treat the cup outside the cage, you put massive treats inside. Thus, you can entice him in and also reward him for going in once he does.

NOTES:
*If you let him out first thing in the morning before breakfast, and do not over-treat while he's out, you will ensure a higher degree of interest in following the lure back home when it's time.
*Leave plenty of time for letting him out, so you don't end up calling work and telling them you can't leave the house till your parrot goes home.
*Ensure every other human knows the bird is out and to keep closed all doors, windows, etc. and prevent hazardous conditions.

You have to use your own judgement on when to drop the nut and retreat, and when to drop it and remain. Then, again, you will have to use your judgement on when to stop dropping the nut and start making him come to you for it. When you do that, increase the size of the nut. You want him to have a Huge reward for coming to take it off you.

NOTE: When teaching him to follow the lure, never move your hand towards him. What we see as offering a treat he will see as BIG HAND CHASING ME!!!! Offer the lure a comfortable distance from him and let him come to you. As time goes along, the distance should decrease. Eventually, the bird will come to the part of the cage closest to you and follow you because of expecting treats. Don't disappoint him too much after this starts or he may change his mind.

Once you can feed him by hand, you can move the nut and he will follow. Then he will be following a handheld lure, and you can move him (virtually) anywhere he is not afraid to go. This is also helpful in teaching him activities, such as tricks and "enter the travel cage".
-MissK
ranechild
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by ranechild »

I highly recommend the napping idea. I feel as if I made the most progress with my birdies after they saw me sleeping.
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Miss k. You are an absolute gem. I will get into that as my port of call along with having his residence sorted. Also provides me with an excuse to nap! Ha
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Abbi,

Thanks, but don't tell; everybody will want some!

Get thee to the couch!

:lol:
-MissK
AJPeter
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by AJPeter »

You could try Northern Parrots l bought a top opening cage from them for £129 they can deliver in two days I have added an attachment of cage Height 60" Width 24" and depth 20"
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InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Can I just add a little caution about when you want him to come take a treat from your hand. Make sure you do it when he's truly keen, some people seem to think it's a stubborness battle. It's not! It means go back to where he's comfortable again.
The other thing I noticed with Sapphire was she accepted me better at different times of the day, she would take treats from my hand in the afternoon, but wouldn't approach me in the mornings. I just went back to unconditional treats in the dish at these times and she soon got over it. Now she's tame all day long :mrgreen:
So if you feel you have gone back a step for no reason, don't worry it's probably temporary.
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Hey guys.

Quick update. Larger cage has been ordered just looking for a stand for him to chill on and eat from when he's outside.
In terms of his behavior. I think it's improved after he's been perched higher up, I've also started the treats and letting him know when they're coming, so as long as he's heard us coming he doesn't start climbing to the back of the cage. If you stay there too long he does do that, so I stay as long as he's comfortable and go away so he can safely eat his food.
He's also using he front perch which is closest I me and I have had a few naps in front of him, I'm hoping the snoring has scared him.
Still looking for that magic food, but grapes and pomegranate seeds are his faves at the moment. Do I've cut them down to a seed or two and a quarter grape an hour that is announced for his royal highness.
Just waiting for him to come to it now and then that'll be a real sign of progress.

Thanks again

Abbi
MissK
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by MissK »

Abbi, I'm glad you checked in - was wondering how it's coming along.

Get yourself a little plate of grape pieces, give him some, and then take yours to the far end of the couch and take your time eating them. The concept is to share food. In time, you may get him to try or eat a new food just because you are having it. It's a combination of indulging in flock behaviour (eating together) and modeling behaviour.

Anecdote: My bird would not try strawberries. Just would not have any part of them. I brought a bowl of diced berries *and my two dogs* to the cage. Offered Rocky a berry piece. Rejected. Ate some myself, passed one to the first dog, one to the second dog, another for me, etc. Offered another to Rocky. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Rocky threw a lot of pieces around, but he also nibbled some. The next morning he was a bird who eats strawberries.

My dogs and I modeled the behaviour (eating strawberries). We ate together, and it made Rocky want to eat with us. That's hard-wired in his brain. This was the direct cause of him trying the berries at all. I guess it would not have gone so well if strawberries were just not for him, or if we were eating, say, gravel. Point is, you should have the strategies of modeling behaviour and eating together in your parrot tool kit. :D

ALSO, congratulations on the improvements you are seeing. That's really grand! When you get him in the new cage, don't be surprised if he's uneasy and possibly standoffish for a few days. Sometimes they need transition time. On the other hand, he may not bat an eye. Keep novel toys and cage furnishings below the half-high line and gradually move them up, to ensure he isn't spooked with no escape. Unless he will not go near the items, should be fine to move them up over a few days. That's just for right now, as he goes in the new cage, unless he develops shyness about large or novel toys. Keep the old cage (if you are keeping it) out so he can develop a more positive attitude towards it (maybe because you put some melon in there or whatever). That way, you can use it for trips and maybe even a sleep cage when he is more tame and comfortable with you.

Also, word to the wise - take your time picking out the stand. These things are expensive and many seem not to be designed with the PARROT in mind. Otherwords, they look nice to humans but don't offer so much to birds. Do a forum SEARCH on stands, play gyms, trees and check out what others have purchased or made. For instance, some people just cut a branch and put it in a Christmas tree stand. I sawed 7 or 8 feet off my fig tree and just threw that branch up sideways on top the cage. Free, free, free, AND lots of places to climb and hang toys. Extra bonus, takes up no additional room in the house. You can check my Pictures thread to see it.

Best wishes!
-MissK
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Thanks for the wisdom Miss K. Let's see how this week goes. Yeah I've been away on a course from work so not had a chance to check in.
Yeah the stuff I've read on stands is making it a tough decision. But no rush yet, like you said take things easy.

Have a lovely weekend

Abbi
Tyeman
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

MissK wrote:Tyeman ~I really would recommend against flooding. It's clear to see the bird is in a cage too small in an extremely vulnerable location. He's scared and it will do no good to scare him further. At this point the very least he needs is to be raised so his high perch is at least 5 feet from the floor. This alone should have a profound impact on his well-being.

Abbi has been very poorly served by the seller of the bird and cage, and now he needs some real help. There is no judgement here, well, not of Abbi, anyway. His cage seller is on my black list. I had high hopes for the seller to help Abbi learn how to make friends with Heisenbird but my hopes are fading fast. If this is the same individual who sold that tiny cage, they're going to be no help at all.

Abbi ~ I think, if the bird was truly hand tamed to start with, he should be able to recover in fairly short order, once his needs are met. I cannot stress this enough, if you have not yet raised that cage, stand up and go do it right now. If you have raised the cage, then you should now start shopping for a more suitable one. You can keep that little one for a sleep or travel cage, or you can maybe see if the seller will take it back since you need larger. Don't fall for the "no refund but you can use the cost towards a different cage". You don't want to do any more business with that person.

Your new cage doesn't really have to be huge, but you should try for it to be at least 36" wide and tall, and (hopefully) more than 20" front to back. I'll bet my ball of jute that little cage is 18" square. If you're in the USA, Petco sells several cages that would be a dramatic step up from what you have, and with free shipping. Check these out. If you don't have other pets like dogs or cats, this might be ideal: http://www.petco.com/product/112008/Pre ... -Cage.aspx If you need it to sit a little higher, this one is also very nice: http://www.petco.com/product/118292/HQ- ... Stand.aspx This next one is, I think, still on the small side, but attractive. I have it for when my bird is going to spend a lot of time in a different area of the house: http://www.petco.com/product/114149/Pet ... -Cage.aspx And, if you'd like to indulge the little guy, consider this: http://www.petco.com/product/122696/HQ- ... -Cage.aspx Incidentally, that last one is the one I have for my bird's every day cage. If strongly pressed, I *might* admit it could possibly be larger than he absolutely needs, but who doesn't want to give their bird the best they can?

Abbi, once you get Heisenbird situated properly, you'll be able to apply the strategies that have not worked yet, and most likely they will succeed. You have the whole forum behind you if they are not enough. It's going to be OK!

yea your deff's right about the cage being to small my 2 have a 1.5mx90x1.8m(the bigger the better)... I failed to think of how that might affect a hand raised bird and make it act a bit wild.. But yes you might be right deffinently worth a try "flooding" should be absolute last resort
Tyeman
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

InTheAir wrote:The theory behind grabbing the bird and holding it is here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
yea i can see where they are going with that theory but you could say the same thing about wing clipping... i should have worded it differently by picking him up i didnt mean just grab him with your hand i meant practice the usual step up method with a sock over your hand so you dont really need to even touch the bird if you just hold your sock covered hand in the step up position for a while and let him bite the hell out of you/it after a while(days/weeks) he will realize you mean no harm... You dont necessarily need to force the bird to do anything..Its a way of him getting used to your hand without him making you bleed.
Abbi30
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Abbi30 »

Hey guys.

Weekly update. We have tried with giving him treats and announcing these treats, he comes down and does have his treats but only after we are at a safe distance. Tried cutting down on treats so he wants them more, but no real effect. He is still getting stressed when we are close by, he flaps around inside the cage ;(

The notable positive is he is turning to face us most of the time if the distance is fine and when we sit near him to eat.

Abbi
Tyeman
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:48 am

Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

does he have wings?

seeing as you dont seem to want to get close to him you could try clicker training... and just do basic targeting with a stick if he understands it and enjoys the interaction enough he should get excited enough to target onto your shoulder(if he has wings)... though he doesn't sound like that kind of bird..

there's always the sock theory let him bite the hell out of you until he notices it has no affect then you can put your sock covered hand near him with treats don't force him to do anything let him come to you though this probs wouldnt work if he has wings... would take a while but you seem to be running out of options...
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Abbi,
That sounds like a bit of improvement. Have you found anymore favourite foods? my guys can be pretty fickle, they love one thing for a few days then decide to scorn it :lol:

Clicker training can be very effective, I haven't tried it myself.

I caution anyone against using any form flooding to "tame" a bird.
Here's some more information on different types of training with links to other useful websites, including Karen Pryors clicker training
http://www.iaate.org/companion-parrots/ ... h-learning
Tyeman
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:48 am

Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

InTheAir wrote:Abbi,
That sounds like a bit of improvement. Have you found anymore favourite foods? my guys can be pretty fickle, they love one thing for a few days then decide to scorn it :lol:

Clicker training can be very effective, I haven't tried it myself.

I caution anyone against using any form flooding to "tame" a bird.
Here's some more information on different types of training with links to other useful websites, including Karen Pryors clicker training
http://www.iaate.org/companion-parrots/ ... h-learning

ughh just to be perfectly clear again im not talking about "flooding" im talking about using the simple step up Technic that every one uses except this bird is obviously going to bite so put a sock over your hand and let it bite the sock NO NEED TO FORCE THE BIRD TO DO ANYTHING just see if after a few goes at this it realises that the sock/hand isnt a threat and with a food lure will step up though like i said it probablly wouldnt work unless the bird had its wings clipped other wise it would just fly away ...because it is free to do what it wants because its not being FLOODED .. I have used this method with parent raised birds that i have gotten that already had clipped wings.. I wouldnt clip a birds wings just to do this...

its all about positive reinforcement not force or "flooding" you could start by simply giving the bird a treat when it stops bitting the sock/hand and go from there im not sure why this flooding has been mentioned or why the above link has been given because no one has mentioned forcing or flooding
InTheAir
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Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by InTheAir »

Tye,

If the bird is scared of hands so it runs away, the only way to get near the bird is to prevent it from escaping by running or flying away. This is forcing oneself upon the bird. Once it is cornered and can not escape, it will bite in self defense. If you don't listen to the signals the bird is giving and continue to keep your hand there, not only are you creating a relationship with your bird that is not based in understanding from either party, but you are forcing yourself upon it.

The link I posted explains the effects of different techniques and gives links to other useful websites on training, which the OP may find helpful.

Btw, I tamed my avairy raised bird fully flighted, without getting bitten, by letting her choose to come to me for treats. I've found force free training very effective on the other (also flighted) nervous birds I have handled. And, they don't bite me, they don't feel they need to.

I have kept my answer abbreviated, as this is not a topic about the merits of different training techniques, but if you would like to discuss this is further detail we can start a new topic. :)
Tyeman
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:48 am

Re: New owner. Heisenbird won't allow us to get close to him

Post by Tyeman »

hmmm yes well i would have to disagree with that like i said it would only work if the bird had its wings clipped and even then there is no need for cornering the bird it can simply walk away straight away or when it gets bored of biting and thats when the positive reinforcement comes in. no force at all whatsoever.. I understand what you think im trying to explain is force or flooding but if you just put a little thought into it and like you said listen to the birds signals.. there is no stress or force needed.

though if the bird is that scared that you cant even stretch out a hand for it to bite yea it would be pretty pointless..

anyway going to need allot of encouragement by the sounds of it.. If he is comfortable with coming down and taking the treats while your at a certain distance and you always give him that distance nothing will change .because he is getting what he wants the food and for you to be a certain distance away..

maybe get a mesuring tape and decrease the distance between you and the bird by 1mm every 2-3 days
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