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A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciated.

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Ashaa
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A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciated.

Post by Ashaa » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:39 am

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and hoping for some advice. I have been researching and have some information but having difficulty finding some things. I apologise if this information is anywhere else- I have been researching but could really do with some thoughts from experienced peeps.

I have two Indian Ringneck rescues that have come from an outdoor aviary. They are mother and daughter and have been living together for 4 years. The mother is around 8 I think. They had to be removed urgently from their outdoor aviary and have to have treatment on their feet every second day. Only problem is that the youngest one (Comet) has never been handled. Indi Rarr (mum) has been initially but not for a very long while so whilst she handles it better it is still stressful.

I am in two thoughts as to my approach. I am unfortunately having to handle them despite their distress. I try to do so in the least stressful way but it is not the way I would have liked to approach this situation. I have been catching them every second day in a towel and treating their feet. I do this very slowly and always make sure that they are as relaxed as possible. In the mean time I am trying to have them be more comfortable around humans. I am currently making soft whistle or kissing noise to indicate my arrival or departure into the room their cage is in. I am also moving slowly and trying not to look at them directly but use my peripheral vision. I am also putting in some of their favorite foods most of the time I go past. Indi Rarr has been comfortable to take food direct from my hands now - she initiates. Comet stays up high in the cage and so my next step is to wait until I see a little more relaxed behaviour and reinforce by then popping the food in slowly and moving away. I am hanging out in the room at a distance that they are comfortable with and just watch tv or read. I was planning on reducing this distance bit by bit. I am having to work at Comets level as Indi Rarr is more confident.

Is there anything else anyone would recommend in this situation?

Also is the having to catch them in the towel every few days going to undo all the work I am doing? Should I wait until I have finished treatment on their feet? I thought that it may be better to do both but I am not sure. I was having another person do the catching but he was not very good at reading them so they ended up far more stressed when he was doing it and so I took over.

I am trying to learn their language and one has me stumped. Indi will stand on her perch and sway side to side rapidly. I tried to look it up and I cannot find much info other than it is possibly an aggressive display but it really doesn't seem to be that as it tends to be when she is comfortable and exploring around her cage.

I notice too that she still feeds Comet - not through regurgitation but passes her food. Is it bad that mother and daughter are kept together? The vet seems to think it is okay but I would be interested in others opinions. The male that was bonded to Indi Rarr passed away when Comet was very young.

Lastly these girls will not be able to stay in my lounge room. I am highly allergic to them:(. Currently Claytine is my best friend but I will not be able to do this long term. I had thought a huge aviary outside with lots of environmental enrichment would be ideal, however I still want them to be comfortable with human handling. I really want what is best for these birds. Do IR prefer to be in a flock or is keeping them as they are, outside and working with them going to be okay? Do they prefer human companionship? I have been offered a home for them at a massive (think flight aviary at a zoo) place where they can live with other ring necks or I can try to re home with someone who is willing to work with them, tame and bond with them or keep them outside with some handling so that they are comfortable and trained but get to do their own thing. I am a little unsure which direction to take and want to do what would be best for these girls.

Indi Rarr is quite comfortable with me I think but Comet is not at all.

All thoughts greatly appreciated!

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ellieelectrons
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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by ellieelectrons » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:44 am

Hi Ashaa
Ashaa wrote:I am new to this forum and hoping for some advice.
Welcome. Sounds like you are doing a lovely thing for these two birds.

Regarding taming, I think you are doing all of the right things
- putting them where they can see you go about your daily routines without being observed themselves
- becoming the treat dispenser of favourite foods (if you haven't already you can determine their fav foods by giving them a huge bowl of foods and watch which they go for first. When you figure it out, withdraw that from their regular diet and use it as a treat that only you give them by hand feeding it t them or putting them in their bowl ensuring they see you do it).
- talking gently to them and being kind.

Some other ideas people have had on this forum over the years include:
- sleeping/napping in front of your birds
- seeing if they like playing music or sounds of other birds.
Ashaa wrote:I am trying to learn their language and one has me stumped. Indi will stand on her perch and sway side to side rapidly. I tried to look it up and I cannot find much info other than it is possibly an aggressive display but it really doesn't seem to be that as it tends to be when she is comfortable and exploring around her cage.
I'm not sure what that means. My female will do that when my husband talks to her quietly and he starts swaying but that's just because her head is following his movements - it's kinda like she's in a trance. Is it a sway or moving feet from side to side? That could be agitation / fear / nervousness
Ashaa wrote:I am in two thoughts as to my approach. I am unfortunately having to handle them despite their distress. I try to do so in the least stressful way but it is not the way I would have liked to approach this situation. I have been catching them every second day in a towel and treating their feet.
.
I think you are doing all you can given the situation. You need to treat their injuries, so you do what you have to do with as little stress as possible. Depending on how you have to medicate them, you could try doing it with them standing on a perch in their cage by giving them a huge amount of treats to eat through whilst you do it... but I'm guessing this probably isn't possible? You would start by offering the treats and doing a small approximation (eg. showing the applicator you will use to administer the medication to their feet and let them eat once they are calm when it has been produced.) Over time you get closer to their feet with it, until they will let you touch their feet with it. You can try the training approximations several times during each day without actually administering the treatment until it is necessary. This will rely on finding the right treat and you being aware of their body language and only pushing it as far as they are comfortable. Only do it for as long as the bird is comfortable. Generally, frequent short sessions will be best.

If you don't think that will work for you, then just continue what you are doing. I don't think it will hurt to be trying to tame them alongside what you are doing. No point waiting. Grabbing them and toweling them will not help the taming process, but you do what you've got to do for the greater good. If you waited until medicating is over, they'd still remember that you grabbed them with a towel, they've got good memories, so I don't think there is any point delaying starting taming.
Ashaa wrote:I had thought a huge aviary outside with lots of environmental enrichment would be ideal, however I still want them to be comfortable with human handling. I really want what is best for these birds. Do IR prefer to be in a flock or is keeping them as they are, outside and working with them going to be okay? Do they prefer human companionship? I have been offered a home for them at a massive (think flight aviary at a zoo) place where they can live with other ring necks or I can try to re home with someone who is willing to work with them, tame and bond with them or keep them outside with some handling so that they are comfortable and trained but get to do their own thing. I am a little unsure which direction to take and want to do what would be best for these girls.
A huge outside aviary sounds great. They will probably be a little harder to tame in this environment but it is still possible. You could also have an outdoor environment and let them spend some time indoors with you and your family (depending on how much your allergies can handle). They are flock creatures but they also form pair bonds and can be extremely territorial during breeding season.

I'm surprised your vet didn't talk to you about having two females together. Generally, two female ringnecks will not get along especially during breeding season. They have been known to kill each other - females will sometimes kill males during breeding season too. There are always exceptions to every rule though, so I'd just recommend you exercise caution and if there is any sign of aggression, separate them.

Best wishes.

Ellie.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by AJPeter » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:02 pm

Welcome and thank you for sharing so much info.

May l ask what form does your allergy take? Is it a rash? Then gloves might help. Is it air bourne (respiratry) then a face mask.

Ellie is absolutely right, towelling is not a good idea try and accelerate their coming to your hand, by holding a treat and let them over come their fear, by patiently waiting.

I think Indi Rarr swaying is a signal she is enjoying your company if Indi Rarr shuffles her feet along the perch while swaying she might be worried about the safety of her daughter.

IRN are very sociable creatures and wil lenjoy watching you eat your meals by the side of their cage they will want to come down and eat their meals ate the same time, open the cage door and it will not be long before you are defending your plate from "famished" birds.

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ellieelectrons
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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by ellieelectrons » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:43 pm

AJPeter wrote: Ellie is absolutely right, towelling is not a good idea try and accelerate their coming to your hand, by holding a treat and let them over come their fear, by patiently waiting.
I didn't mean to say towelling isn't a good idea. In emergency situations you do what you have to do. Towelling won't further your taming goal so if other methods can be used, it is preferable.

Ellie.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by AJPeter » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:37 pm

Yes but catching a bird by towelling to get it back into the cage is not a good idea.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by InTheAir » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:09 pm

AJPeter wrote:Yes but catching a bird by towelling to get it back into the cage is not a good idea.
Aj, please read the original post again!

If someone has an untamed bird that needs medication it is imperative that they use whatever means possible to medicate the bird! No matter how much most of us prefer not to use force, this is a situation that cannot be avoided in this case.

When the birds are healthy the op may be able to teach them to accept medication and like being wrapped in a towel.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by Ashaa » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:32 pm

Thank you all so much for the replies and advice. I will jump on again when I have access to a computer to do so properly. Just wanted to say I very much appreciate the time that you have all taken to respond:).

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by MissK » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:24 pm

I'm reading this with interest. These are my thoughts:

*If Indi and Comet are truly able to live together, then I would be loathe to see them separated. There are far too many solitary birds in captivity for my liking.
*If Indi is willing to be a tame bird once again, and it sounds like she is, I see no reason Comet could not be expected to eventually follow her lead.
*I think your taming efforts as described are good. If I were to add anything, it would be to discover what food makes Comet go weak in the knees (so to speak). If it were me, I'd try plain (no salt/sugar/additives) peanut butter. You can dole it out with a spoon, stick it to a perch or cage bars, and serve it right out of the jar (obviously, a jar dedicated to Ringnecks). When the birds see the jar coming, they'll know what's inside, so you'll get some eager anticipation. Of course, every bird is different, and Comet might not like PB, but I think it's worth a try. Rocky would turn himself inside-out for PB, if he could. If she does like it, it could be your golden ticket to her willingness to participate.
*I agree with Ellie that there is not reason to wait on taming. With taming, you are offering something nice to go along with the evil of medical treatment. If you don't offer something nice, they have only negatives to associate with you. I think waiting to tame would be a mistake.
*They may well get used to the towel. Call it flooding if you want to, but if they are sensitively toweled regularly and treated with great compassion, with bribery, it just might work. I'm sure they would prefer the towel over you just grabbing them in your hand.
*I know cats are not Ringnecks, but I do have an anecdote about a mature fierce wild or feral stray cat with a belly abscess who permitted wound care several times a day because he was too weak to resist. Once he got better, he was a tame pussycat and just wanted me to hold him. Unbelievable, but true.
*I don't know anything about the swaying.
*The food passing is a new one on me, but there are so many things I don't know. Could it be a parent behaviour we don't usually hear about because breeders tend to break up the families instead of letting them live and age together?
*I'd be interested to know why that male died.
*I'm also wanting to know what's wrong with their feet? Was it a traumatic experience like rat attack, or a mistake in care, like frostbite or vitamin deficiency?
*It's very sad you have the allergy. An outside aviary would probably be very nice, but I can't think it will do anything for the human/bird bond, at least on the bird end. If you can safely interact with them in that setting, however, they can still be trained to come to you before they go out there, and from there you might be able to interact enough to keep the tameness going. If they won't come to you before they go to the aviary, I would think the chance of success plummets.
*I think the companionship the birds prefer really depends on the birds and their upbringing and experience. I could hazard a guess that Indi might be comfortable either way, and that Comet would prefer the company of birds, but it's just a guess based on the tiny history you presented. Too, there is the possibility that Comet might enjoy people, once she is more experienced with them. These birds are very smart and live a long time. I reject the idea that at any time they are a finished work that cannot change.
*I think you're going along well, and I really do feel your choices for their future must be highly influenced by whether you can or will maintain them yourself. If you have the means and desire to make it happen, then their place is probably with you. If you must pass them to someone else, you will have to make that hard choice - zoo type accommodations or rehome with dedicated and competent humans. In your place I would be concerned that a less tame female might just be turned into a breeding machine, and that opens a whole different can of worms. I think the birds, themselves, could adapt to either the aviary or the living room, as long as the right person was there to help them.
*What your girls need most is a safe and wholesome place to live. The best aviary in the world is no good if the food is not wholesome, for instance. The most caring human might not provide a suitable situation due to ignorance. I think you should look first at the environment and second at the social situation of potential homes for them.
*Good job to you for taking in these birds and helping them. I get the feeling you are intelligent and compassionate in good measure, and I think you are probably quite capable of making happen what needs to be for your birds. I wish you the very best.
-MissK

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by InTheAir » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:11 am

I was thinking about the aviary thing, I really think that if you can go into the aviary a couple times a day, say take your breakfast out and eat with them, while sharing appropriate bird safe treats, and then again spend an hour or 2 in the afternoon, that wouldn't be that far different from what a house bird who's owner works full time gets.
But like Missk said, it would depend on your ability to maintain that consistently, even over winter.
I don't know how tame they would get though, I spend a lot more than a few hours near my birds every day (they are house pets). Even though we are not interacting the whole time, they are out of their cages and in the same room as me doing whatever they like or trying to prevent me from doing whatever I am trying to do.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by AJPeter » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:53 pm

"Naughty!"

Ashaa
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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by Ashaa » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:18 am

Wow, thank you everyone for taking the time to read and respond here. All of this has been amazing.

To answer some questions:

I have to massage a gel into their feet for 30 seconds. I have tried to work with Indi with successive approximation and I think that whilst it is achievable to train her to present her feet that unfortunately the time required for training is shorter than what I need in relation to medicating, however I will keep working on it:). The feet have improved really quickly so it looks like we can move treatment to every 3-4th day and I think it will only be maybe 4-5 more times which would be fantastic!

My vet said that they seemed to get along quite well - they have been living together for at least 4 years now and so he felt that it was good company for each other. They previously had been using the one nesting box which I also found interesting. So both of them would lay there eggs and both sit on them in the same box even though they had two! I do wonder if they would have preferred to go their separate ways had they been given the opportunity to chose for themselves. It is an interesting question. Is the behaviour I am seeing (food sharing) unhealthy in mature birds or is it a behaviour that would occur between birds that had chosen to be flock mates?

I am noticing what seems to be some hierarchy behaviours...but I have mainly experience with larger animals and not really birds so was unsure if they have a hierarchy structure to interaction. Comet will eat first unless a human is making her uncomfortable in which case Indi will eat first. They take turns eating and they both share food by allowing each other to take it from the others beak but never at the feed bowls. Its really interesting! If an Aviary outside happens I will be placing in multiple feed bowls of the same foods - so that they always have options to as to which they prefer and can do so on their own if they want. Much like I did with horses feeds and cats and cat litter boxes. I also notice that Indi (I think it is her - they are pretty identical so it is difficult to tell unless it is behaviourally) pushes Comet around by using her body to nudge her to a position she wants her in. Comet doesn't seem fussed by it.

I will watch carefully to see if there is any growing aggression of any kind.

My allergy is to the dander. I get hay fever, asthma, swollen eyes and itchy skin. Sometimes a rash but that is only when I am handling them or cleaning their cage. I have a lovely friend who now comes over to clean the lounge room up so that the dander and feathers are not hanging around. I didn't want to wear a mask yet because I felt it may freak them out...unless I can make it look like a beak maybe! I am allergic to most animals but could not imagine my life without them. Birds unfortunately seem to be a high allergy however so there does need to be a compromise.

The male mate of Indi died from shock from accidentally getting out of his aviary:(.

The feet injuries are from mouse bites! The vet has said that apart from that they are in excellent condition and are super healthy which is a big plus.

Some updates:

I have discovered that they both have a sweet beak. Indi's favourite food is corn, peanuts, sunflower seeds, blue berries, and grapes. I will be placing these in a bowl and seeing which one comes out on top:).

Comet from what I could observe likes grapes, blue berries, cantaloupe and corn. I think possibly yellow capsicum but I have to retest - it is very hard watching from my peripheral vision!

Broccoli and zucchini were thrown out of the bowl pretty quickly to try and get to the most desired food items.

I have a suspicion that Indi being there with Comet could actually be working against the taming process in some ways. She just relies on Indi to pass her food and can pretty much hide behind her. I was hoping that she would learn off her mum that I wasn't a threat and that may come but I can see that it is potentially limiting the progress we may have if Comet was on her own. I do think I need to know more about Comet and this will be my focus. I think the peanut butter sounds awesome and will try that tomorrow:).

I have spoken to a place that is happy to take them and will be checking out there facilities soon. They sound awesome. Amazing aviary, amazing food schedule and vet checks once a month. The only concern I have is that it is with 6 Alexandrine parrots and 6 other RN's. They said that they do not provide nesting boxes and that is why they don't breed but I know that Indi did not have a nesting box originally and would just lay her eggs on the ground. That is how the Comet came to being. I asked then what happened if she started to hatch babies and they said they would then allow that to occur. I would prefer a home where she did not breed. I will go and have a look and chat to them further to see if this may be a good option for them.

Otherwise I am excited by the idea of trying to make them a paradise of a home. I have so many ideas! So if it ends up being that this is the best option for them then I will create an amazing environment for them that they can live out there days and will attempt to do my best with them in relation to handling and taming. I think it is not a decision I will be making quickly and I am happy to have them in my care if that is going to be the safest and best for them. I do think it will take time as I would like to make sure that they can have what is the best option for them.

AJPeter- "Naughty!" I am confused what that comment was in relation to.

Thank you all again for your feedback. It is very clear that there is passion and love towards understanding and enriching your birds lives which is really heartening.

P.S. Apologies if this is really rambly - I am super sleepy!

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by InTheAir » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:58 am

Ashaa, it is so heartening to read your post! I love to hear about your quest to understand your birds and communicate with them!
The most important thing is to keep their medication schedule, even if it contridicts the taming work. It really is hard to train anything in a hurry, but when the medication is done it should be possible to train Indi to accept having her feet played with etc in her own time.

I have limited experience, I have 2 birds, the second was aviary raised and was in quarantine for a couple weeks by herself, which is when I built the foundation of our relationship. When she was introduced to our first bird she has turned into a complete copy cat, despite not really getting along with him. As he is very confident with us, she has become the same.
This leads me to think that in your birds situation Comet will eventually start to mimic her mother's behaviour. As there is no pressing need for her to put herself forward to get treats, it would be a long process, but an interesting one to develop. I'd like to hear how it goes!
When the need for forced medication is over and comet can make her own decisions on whether you are allowed into her space or not, you will find the dynamic changes. Maybe Comet just has a great respect for your allergies and doesn't want to make you ill :mrgreen:
My girl's first experience of handling after fledging was to be caught in a net and the second was being towelled by my vet, and all that goes with a vet check, she was climbing onto my hand for treats within 2 weeks of that. .. She could have saved herself the trouble if she got on with Nila, he has no problem with other birds taking food from his beak and helps himself to anything that is hanging out of anyone else's beak if it's easier to reach than the food from the source.
As far as I know parrots don't have a set hierarchy. They can squabble and there will be a different outcome on who gets the object/food on a regular basis. My new bird doesn't seem to get along with other birds well, but Nila shares food with our friend's bonded pair when they have play dates and the 3 of them don't seem to get aggressive about sharing treats.

I think that the irn reputation for reverting to being untame proves how intelligent and adaptable they are, rather than that they are difficult birds to work with.

It would interest me greatly if you do keep them, I'd love to hear how your relationship develops with them! If you were to keep them in an aviary, would it much matter to you if Comet decided not to be overly tame? You sound like you would get rather a lot of enjoyment from watching their development and interactions anyway.
Since they have been getting along well for so long, it seems that they are comfortable together there seems to be no need to change their living arrangements.. if you don't want them to breed and they enjoy each others company, it's ideal.

I look forward to hearing what your plans for them will be.

Regards,
Claire

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by MissK » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:29 am

Thanks for the extra information; it rounds out the picture. Surely these birds are better off now that you have them.

I think you can probably stop worrying about the food passing between them, as long as it is clear they are both able to eat independently.

It's hard to make this recommendation without having seen the birds in action, but I suspect that you will be able to make overtures directly towards Comet. You can hold food for Indi that she can only nibble but not take and pass. Maybe fruit juice would be the ticket there. Again, if it came to the cage in a clearly recognizable container and was served "free" just long enough to let them both associate the container with the food, there would be recognition and anticipation. You may be able to exclude India physically, perhaps by putting her on top the cage while you interact with Comet inside the cage. Or, if you're talented and the cage is big enough, you could be passing treats to both birds using both hands at the same time. You would have to get their compliance with that. Last, I don't know how long you've been at this with them, but it really could be just a matter of time. I have a great story about my RIngneck who was almost there, but still afraid to get on my hand. I bought a Budgie, hand trained it where my IRN could watch, and a month in, the IRN just spontaneously hopped onto my wrist one day while I had my hand in the cage for something else. No treat or anything, just BAM, Here I am! Modeling should not be underestimated.

I can back you up on taking your time on the decision. During that time you will be working through your bird-keeping challenges and learning whether you are up for them. Also it will give the birds more chance to socialize further. And you will be able to really get comfortable with the place you choose for them, if it is not with you.
-MissK

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by AJPeter » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:44 pm

Ashaa l have a bad habit of jumping on other people's posts with irrevelent comments and Intheair pointed out l shoud read your post again so to acknowledge my error l said "Naughty"

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by sanjays mummi » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:17 pm

If you can afford it, an air filter is a good piece of kit, I have a "Heaven Fresh" which I purchased from Northern Parrots, it is especially for allergens. I read somewhere that towelling can actually help a bird become used to being handled, not that I have tried it, Sanjay is becoming tamer as time passes, on his own terms. Anyway, I admire what you are doing, and wish you the very best of luck.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by Ashaa » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:03 pm

InTheAir - I don't actually mind if Comet stays independent. I just want what is in their best interests. Ideally it would be nice if they are happy to be handled for checking over and medicating but if they chose to not want my company I am really okay with that. I do think they are highly intelligent beings:).

MissK - Thank you for your suggestions:). I have tried the peanut butter and there was no interest from either of them. Next will be fruit juice:)

AJPeter - Thank you. That makes sense now. I appreciate everyones input and thank you for yours.

Sanjays mummi - I have been looking into air filters. I have a big dust allergy so I think it may be really helpful. I will have a look at that brand. There are so many out there that it can be difficult to work out which one would be the most appropriate.

Update: So very happy I don't need to do anymore on their feet as they have healed up really well. The last treatment Comet actually jumped onto the towel! I tried to reward but it didn't go too well but did leave him alone for a bit to try a reinforce. Indi managed to get out and go for a fly and unfortunately was not very co operative in allowing me to put her back. At the time my family were waiting outside with dinner for a good while whilst I went about trying to bribe her back. Eventually I had to catch her with the towel and she had the grumps with me for a day and half:(. On the awesome side this morning she is incredibly happy and trying to bribe me into sharing some of my breakfast with her -which she succeeded in:).

This week they will still be staying indoors with me as the temperature is going to be 38-41C so it will be much nicer for them indoors with the rest of my gang! It also allows me time to design and build an aviary of awesome outside. More research now but will post a new topic in housing:). I may start a new thread in here about how I go with these girls and what I am doing. I have enjoyed reading others who have done the same so hopefully it may be interesting and useful to others.

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by MissK » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:43 pm

This is really good news. It sounds like you have a great start. Good luck with the juice, and keep trying different things. If you introduce them to actual peanuts, and it goes well, try PB again. The paste format makes it useful, but something else in paste form might do as well. Some like honey. Mine doesn't but they are all individuals.

I would love to hear how it's going from time to time. I really like the happy ending sort of stories. :)
-MissK

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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by InTheAir » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:07 pm

MissK wrote:
I would love to hear how it's going from time to time. I really like the happy ending sort of stories. :)
Same! Best of luck with them.

My girl won't eat nuts, I haven't tried nut butter, she goes crazy for almost any kind of fruit though.

AJPeter
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Re: A little overwhelmed - advice/thoughts greatly appreciat

Post by AJPeter » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:41 pm

If you give them cornflakes do not give milk as IRN cannot digest milk, dip the cornflakes in water.

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