Scaredy Cat

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Mon May 06, 2013 10:13 pm

Hello Everyone, This is my first post, as i am new to this forum as well as owning an IRN. My boyfriend and I finally picked up our baby yesterday. He is a blue 2 month old male. We are a little concerned because his breeder handfed him and told us he would be used to human touch but he is very afraid of us. He wont allow us to get near enough to him to pick him up or give him a treat. He has many new toys that he ignores. He is in our livingroom so he is able to see and hear us all day but that didnt seem to calm him down at all whenever we tried to approach. Does anyone have any advice on what we may be doing wrong that he is so afraid of us/ our hands? How can we get him to take our offered treats/ bond with us? Should we allow him out of the cage?

amaraatlanta · Post by **amaraatlanta** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:02 am

Im sure a more experienced owner will also comment as I am still very new to this also. We got our rescue about 2 month back and he was very frightened. What we found best was to leave him to settle on his own, the more we tried to force him to take from our hands etc the more he just refused.

He is coming round more and more everyday now and we love him to bits, but it has been a slow process. The best advise I was given was treat him mean to keep him keen, the more you ignore the more they want you lol

As you put your hands in to change things (food toys etc) go very slow and your baby will get used to you being close and bringing nice things and trusting that you arnt going to invade there space at the same time. Then spend time next to the cage talking gently to your baby, and maybe even taking a nap beside the cage so that he can get used to you.

Hope this helps.

ellieelectrons · Post by **ellieelectrons** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:17 am

Congrats on your new little guy. Our Charlie was very similar when we first brought him home. He had been handraised too but was scared of us. I'd say it took us about a month to tame him. I also found that at that age they're not confident cage climbers, don't understand toys that well and don't really understand different types of food that well. I'd give him a day or two to settle in and then start working with him. I don't think he will need as long as an adult rescue bird would need to settle in. Make sure you know if your little guy is eating and drinking. I would also recommend an avian vet check (most important test is for psittacosis).

When you start working with him, have some out of cage areas for you to interact with him in - a birdy playstand is good but a table will do for now. See if you can work out his fav foods and withdraw these from his regular diet and offer them to him as treats whenever you walk by. If he won't take them from your hand, make sure he sees you putting them in his food bowl. Talk to him lots and do it gently.

Good luck.

Ellie.

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:04 am

Thank you Sue and Ellie! I think we were pushing him to get used to us because the breeder told us that we should handle him at least twice a day so he stays calm with us. He is a good eater and drinker but only likes a seed mixure we found similar to the sample his breeder gave us of his old food. I want to try the treat tactic you suggested but he loses his mind whenever i open the cage door so i dont think he is calm enough yet to see that i put anything in there. You are right about him being very clumsy, i guess agility will come with age. Going to try to put him on the playgym ontop of his cage later. Do you think i should be trying to get him to step up onto my finger? (The breeder already taught him that trick) The brightside is he doesnt bite us when we try to handle him, he scream- cries (the old noise we have heard him make) IS it normal for him to be so quiet?

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Tue May 07, 2013 2:19 pm

Welcome Nico...congrats on your new baby.

I just brought home my new baby 4 days ago. This is my second IRN, but my first baby IRN. Mine too was hand fed too. But it's like a new beginning when they come home. The person who hand fed them and handled them is not around, and they have new surroundings. I waited one full day for him to settle in. After breakfast on the second day I started getting him used to my hands. I put my hands at different places and different heights on the outside of the cage and held them there. After a break from that, I opened the door and placed my hands inside the cage and held them there. Speak softly and in a higher pitched tone. I did that twice on day 2. On day three after breakfast, I gave a small recap of day 2 and then moved on to offering the back of my hand slowly and saying step up. He may try to flee a few times, but move slowly and be persistent. Always end a training session on a good note. Throughout the day continue to open the door and replace dishes, small toys, and talk the whole time. By day four, today, he was waiting at the door for me. I opened the door and he stepped right up. Of course he hopped right to my shoulder, which I'm working on lol. But it was extreme progress. As for toys, right now stick to small toys with strings on them. Fuzzy ends and feathers work good too. It will help him learn to preen and give him a familiar feeling. I don't know how big your cage is, but to start only keep a few perches at medium height. Enough for him to reach his food and water and sleep on. Keep the bottom of the cage free of anything, because he will fall. Over and over again lol. Just keep it slow and steady. Over time increase your handling time. Use certain phrases and stick to them. Try to establish routines such as feeding, bathing, and play time. He's still young now, but as he gets older you can ask Ellie about foraging and such. There are many people here with similar stories they have shared and if you ever have other questions, do a search on here because its probably been asked before. Good luck and again congrats on your new friend.

ellieelectrons · Post by **ellieelectrons** » Tue May 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Skye_crew gives good advice. 1 day or 2 should be enough for your bird to settle in. Working with a handraised young bird is different from bringing home an adult bird. So when you are reading the forums, and do search them because there is lots of good information available, keep that in mind. Working with him twice a day or more, after the short settling in period is good. You don't need to offer treats by opening the cage door, you can offer them through the bars. It's also a good time to get your bird used to other people too. That's something I didn't do well enough with my guys.... and teaching him to step up is really important too. Get him stepping from hand to hand, keep placing the other hand a bit higher as they will naturally want to step to the higher perch.

Good luck and best wishes!

Ellie.

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Tue May 07, 2013 5:08 pm

I have been sitting by the cage all afternoon. When I don't move he seems okay and is comfortable enough to duck his head down into the food bowl out of view and then pops it back up to watch me as he chews. If i speak or move he starts running away which usually ends with him on the bottom of the cage. I'll keep trying and hopefully will be able to write back to you soon that he is no longer afraid! Thank you for all the help and if you think of any other small tips I would love to hear them. Thanks again!

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue May 07, 2013 8:03 pm

Another trick to try is whispering. Also eat something fantastic in front of him. Even if he won't take it from you, you can leave him some in the bowl AFTER you see him wanting what you have. Later on you can raise the bar.

-MissK

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Wed May 08, 2013 9:02 pm

Quick update- Nico is coming around slowly. We tried whipsering, baiting him with treats, sitting quietly by the cage and looking at him. He started to get comfortable with us watching him yesterday and today my boyfriend got him to climb up on a stick and then onto his finger! we were so excited. but the whole time he was screaming which slowly turned into a grumble. Our main issue now is we dont know how to reward his good behavior because he is too afraid of our hands to accept treats. I was wondering if there was a way around that?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Wed May 08, 2013 10:55 pm

Clicker training!

OK, I never did clicker training, but some have, and with fabulous result. This is how I understand it goes (anybody with hands on experience feel free to hop in and tweak this instruction!):

The initially valueless clicker becomes a conditioned reinforcer. If you recall Pavlov's salivating dog, the click of a clicker would stand in for the bell. It is used as a "bridge" to close the physical (or temporal) gap between you and the bird. Used in that manner, the click tells the bird "what you just did this very second was the action to earn a treat"! A human example of the bridging stimulus could be someone laughing at your joke. It tells you right at the second your joke was effective and produced the desired result - and you feel rewarded. Joke loving folks will be motivated by this to tell more jokes, and they will be honing their skill at that by getting that fast, desirable feedback.

You'll have to find a way to get a high value treat to your bird, perhaps by dropping it in a cup at the bird's feet. You let the bird get used to receiving a treat this way, and you get the bird used to the clicker, and then you put them together. Click, treat. Click, treat. Over and over until the bird hears a click and expects a treat. Click, treat. Click, treat. Once that stage is reached, your clicker has a meaning. It means "treat is coming".

Then you pick a simple behaviour you want the bird to do. Let's say it is step up to the stick. Your bird already knows HOW to do this, but not that it can earn a click/treat for doing it. You can reward (click) the bird for stepping up to the stick to demonstrate that doing what you asked (you said step up and offered the stick) can earn a click/treat. When that is looking good, you have your bridging stimulus.

Once you have this under your collective belt, you have a way to guide the bird, or "shape" its behaviour. Maybe you want the bird to step on the finger, but it only steps on the stick. Maybe the finger is too large an elevation in criteria - it's asking too much too fast. But, possibly, the bird will step to something other than a stick. You offer another object for stepping, let's say it's a feed bowl, and you say "step up". At the first movement that could reasonably lead to another movement that could lead to stepping up to the bowl, you click. And then you treat.

Perhaps the movement the bird made was raising the foot. You work on that until it is looking great, and then you start clicking only for the best foot raises, the ones that are most on the way to stepping up. Maybe they are highest. You raise the criteria and only click the foot raises that are higher than average. Your bird should start giving mainly higher than average foot raises. At that point, you have shaped the behaviour of lifting the foot higher than average when asked to step up to a bowl. When that behaviour is tight, you change the criteria again, etc, so the behaviour looks increasingly more like what you want.

In reality, a bird that steps up to a stick is not going to have trouble stepping up to the bowl it already stands on to eat meals. The example was just to show you how this might proceed. If it were me, instead of stepping to bowl, I would try to shape taking treats from the hand first, since it goes to establish your hand as approachable and safe, even nice. Also, taking food from the hand is so very helpful for you, in every way and more! It is very important to not rush the animal or raise the criteria too high at each increment. Also, you should stop while you're all in a happy place with it. Rome wasn't built in a day.

As I said, people who have actually used clickers should get in here. I am intending to get a clicker "soon" and try it out on my dog. What old dog couldn't use a new trick? If I can manage some skill with the dog, I will upgrade to clickering the bird. Everybody says it's easy, but I'm still looking around for the rum. You try it and let me know how it goes!

-MissK

ellieelectrons · Post by **ellieelectrons** » Wed May 08, 2013 11:56 pm

MissK has given good advice in her post... and as she said, you want to see if you can eventually get your bird to take treats from your hand. For a start, keep trying through the cage bars. Wait there for a while and look for progress (eg. the bird looks interested or takes a step towards you before chickening out). After any sign of progress, leave the treat in the coop cup. Start expecting the bird to come closer and closer before leaving it in the coop cup and eventually your bird should take treats from your hand.

Another alternative is you could try to see if it will take it from a spoon or something else. I bought some plastic aeroplane baby spoons and I use them with my birds. The problem with these can be that they are scared of them too. When Charlie first came home and was scared of us, I found it was quicker to get him not scared of the spoon than it was to get him used to eating from our hands as he must have already had some bad experiences with people's hands. In the end, it comes down to how scared he is of the spoon. Be aware of this and introduce it to your bird slowly. Possibly start by just leaving it on a table somewhere near his cage so he can see it is harmless.

Clicker training using one of his coop cups as MissK suggested is also a good idea. I haven't done much in the way of clicker training with my guys though. I always feel like I'm one-hand short when I try to use the clicker with them.

Take whatever advice seems to make the most sense to you. Give it a go, and if it doesn't work, try something else or try doing the same thing in a less confrontational way.

Good luck and well done on your progress thus far!

Ellie.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Thu May 09, 2013 12:53 am

I too would like to try clicker training. On my bird, my dog, my kids, and my husband.

You said your boyfriend was able to get him to step to his hand. Have your boyfriend hold small pieces of peanuts in one hand and as he steps up say the command step up and offer the small piece of nut. If you can do it in one seamless motion the bird won't have a chance to react or fly away. After he gets the taste for the nut he will more readily take food from you. Try putting him on a play stand and feeding him a half of peanut while holding it for him. My baby doesn't have the full coordination just yet to hold big pieces. At first it may seem like he's attacking you or the food. Do not pull back. He's testing the waters. The babies catch on real quick where food comes from. Just be patient. You're making progress

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:30 pm

thank you both for the good advice. We still havent made any progress on getting him to accept treats. The only thing he seems comfortable with are wooden spoon and a wooden perch we found in petco. He also has no problem with our hands if have a winter wool glove on but if its bare skin he runs. We try slow approach but it doesnt seem to change. He also doesnt seem to like any fruits. We tried oranges, bananas, apples, snap peas even nuts. It almost seems like he doesnt have enough force with his beak to eat anything from us. we even tried using the spoon which he is comfortable to give him treats and he wont accept it. The farthest we got was him picking up a sunflower seed and throwing it to the floor. I am starting to think he hates us.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri May 10, 2013 8:38 pm

He doesn't hate you! I promise he does not! He's just a baby, a beginner; he just doesn't know what he doesn't know. He only met you three days ago.

If you think the food is too big or hard for him, offer smaller or softer foods. More likely, he just needs to get comfortable. Does he like seeds? Imbed seeds in some fruit. Offer a slice of kiwi that has obvious seeds that are easy to get to. Get all tough love and schmear some plain fruit puree on one of his feet. Maybe he will like it when he cleans it off the foot. Offer lukewarm plain oatmeal. Maybe it will remind him of handfeeding food. Grind a nut very fine and sprinkle it on his food. Later do the same but include a coarser grind, and progress to little bits. IRNs love nuts. Maybe he just needs the right introduction. Shred some carrot with a peeler and hang a few strands through the cage bars. Try to see his world through his own eyes. Call the breeder and ask what toys he liked there. Give him a small leaf of kale or spinach with water still on it. Get crazy, but remember to keep things small in size so they are not intimidating, and don't hang things over his head until he gets more bold.

Will those suggestions work? They might. Give them a try and see what sticks. Let us know what else you try.

-MissK

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Fri May 10, 2013 9:11 pm

Pure genious MissK! we will try them out tomorrow and I will keep you updated.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri May 10, 2013 9:46 pm

The only thing I can add to the already wonderful advice is to offer to make a video of a training session with my baby to give you a visual. If you'd like that let me know.

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Fri May 10, 2013 9:55 pm

that would be great, do you need my email or would you post it to the forum

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:06 am

I sent you a private message. Ill send you the video sometime tomorrow. I train in the afternoon.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:53 am

Skyes_crew: Oo can you please share your video with me too?
I don't get exposed to anywhere near enough people training birds, and want to learn more/get tips.

Claire

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sat May 11, 2013 1:46 am

If you guys want I can post it in this thread. Let me know.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sat May 11, 2013 2:31 am

Great idea. I think this forum needs a good thread on positive training that can be referred to when people need it. I started trying to write one but I don't have any experience with untamed birds, so it would be a quote fest, and also I got too sidetracked on the importance of foraging and flying lol

Nico2013 · Post by **Nico2013** » Sat May 11, 2013 9:15 am

lpost it here if you are comfortable so that others can learn too!

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sat May 11, 2013 10:36 am

I almost never appear on camera anymore. I'm usually the one taking the photos or video. But if it helps a fellow ringneck lover, ill take one for the team lol.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sat May 11, 2013 4:09 pm

As we say in my country Good on you, mate.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sat May 11, 2013 10:59 pm

Hey guys...sorry for the delay on the video. My family wanted to spend the day at the beach and I'm pretty much exhausted lol. Since tomorrow is Mother's Day, ill post the video on Monday. Have a great weekend

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon May 13, 2013 8:46 pm

Ok...here is the video.I know I sound goofy lol.

http://m.youtube.com/my_videos#/watch?v=HQW3Q732SPg

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:07 am

This did not work for me. What did you name your video?

-MissK

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Tue May 14, 2013 10:02 am

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HQW3Q732SPg&feature=plcp

Try this MissK

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:59 pm

Nice Vid, Skye!

That cage looks a lot like Rocky's "auxiliary cage". You have the drop down landing platform high up on the front?

-MissK

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Tue May 14, 2013 10:04 pm

Yup

his big cage was a little frightening for him. He panicked when I first put him in it. So he's in there right now until he's a little calmer and older.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Wed May 15, 2013 7:27 am

I like that cage. Right now I use his (mine) for when I want him on a longer outing from the living room. It's downstairs in my sewing area right now, but the intention is moving it to the patio when he's handle-able enough to transfer more safely. I'm thinking I would only be comfortable moving him (flighted) outside in a towel, or perched on the hand and holding the feet. Something where I could open the door and stick him right into the waiting cage. I'm pretty cautious, so this could take a while. Cage is too big and unwieldy to carry it in and out.

-MissK

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Wed May 15, 2013 10:17 am

I agree it is not a move around cage. I have an outdoor aviary cage that I give my birds some outdoor time in and I panic when I move them. I either towel them or place them in their airline travel cage and open the door to the inside of the cage. I've tried holding my birds feet, they have some strong feet lol. That's one of the reasons for me wanting to try a harness on the baby. I want him to be able to free flight outdoors without me having a coronary. I saw a video of a woman who trained her conure to free flight outside and run and play with her and then come back. I was like, my birds would be in Fiji by now

jmlw7 · Post by **jmlw7** » Wed May 15, 2013 1:18 pm

Skyes_crew wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HQW3Q732SPg&feature=plcp

Try this MissK

This was a great video. What treats are you feeding? Yesterday we tried day 1 of training Remy to get us to pet him and touch his body while he isnt sleepy (when he is sleepy, we can pet him, ruffle his head and cheeks and scratch his beak). He has mastered the stepping up with apples as treats, and no longer needs treats for that. Now we want to bring our hand closer and closer to him while he is perched on our finger so he will let us touch his head and back and eventually cup him and lay him on his back, etc. But he wasnt having it yesterday! He is clipped but kept leaning away and not focusing and trying to fly off during training. He flew to the ground a couple times and then waddled back over to me and climbed up. When he let me touch his head once, I tried praising him and giving a small piece of apple and he didnt want it, he just wanted to get off me and go play.

So how do you train them if they are so preoccupied and arent interested in treats? He just didnt care.

Sorry for barging in on the original post! I was just super impressed with how food driven Skye's bird seemed during training!

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Wed May 15, 2013 1:30 pm

I break up peanuts into tiny pieces. It was a trial to find the perfect training food. What I eventually did was lay out a few options on the counter and let the birds pick their favorite. Every time it was peanuts. So I only use peanuts for training. No other time. Whatever food you find that he can't live without, pull it from his daily diet and only use it for training. Once you have Remy focused on a particular food it will make training a lot easier.

Two person job...one offer the treats and the other pet him while distracted. Constantly praise. Start slow though. Move your hand slowly, the whole time praising and offering treats. If it has to be a one person job, place Remy on your stomach while reclined in a chair or on the couch.

Hamlet still gets a bit nervous going over his head to pet him. Try to start with the chest and work your way up and around to the back of his neck. Remy seems to be a quick learner. He'll get it!

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Wed May 15, 2013 4:05 pm

Skyes: Thanks for sharing the video. Your little bird is doing so well with his training.

ellieelectrons · Post by **ellieelectrons** » Wed May 15, 2013 4:18 pm

I found that foraging made a huge difference to Janey's response to training. I think a lot of the time, she was just full and didn't want a treat at that time. Check out these links for more information on foraging:
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 01&p=69400
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =4&t=13466
http://www.parrotenrichment.com/ - this site has some free ebooks to download

Ellie.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:32 am

I love those e books Ellie. I reference back to them a lot.

And like Ellie mentioned, he may not have his attention on treats because he's full. My birds pick during the morning. Breakfast, some foraging, etc. then they take a mid morning nap. After that nap is when I start the first training session of the day. Also make sure he's not sleepy. I tried to start a training session too late in the evening with hamlet and he sat on the perch, lifted his foot and went to sleep. Cute? YES Helpful? Not Really!!!

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri May 17, 2013 6:09 pm

I did a bad thing. OK, a bad thing For Me. I gave Rocky a few licks of Jif Peanut Butter - not the healthy just peanuts organic kind. Jif. The kind choosy mothers choose in Advertising Land.

He Loved It. I think, more than he loves pecans.

-MissK

sanjays mummi · Post by **sanjays mummi** » Sun May 19, 2013 7:26 am

Sanjay is partial to a dab of organic peanut butter. It seems like only yesterday when I first got him, he was so tiny!, and sat like a statue for ages, panicked every time I put my hand inside the cage, and not a squeak out of him for weeks and weeks. They do settle in, so have patience.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun May 19, 2013 10:44 am

MissK...shame on you. lol, I'm just kidding. Skye goes nuts, no pun intended, for peanut butter. And not the organic kind either. If I buy one more organic thing in this house my kids are going to petition the courts for emancipation. I try to make them healthy...maybe I go overboard a little