Change in behaviour, am i the cause?

[mattcoffs]

So Sammy is about 5 months old. I've had him/her (leaning towards "her" as she's starting to put her head back and cluck when i scratch the back of her neck) since 9 wks old.

The first week together was rough, with lots of skin tearing bites but then once we got to know each other they stopped (mostly a blood bite would incur 10 minutes in the cage alone)

Over the course of being a new to parrots bird owner, i've tried really hard to be calm and collected when the animal i've doted on has been mean. I'm reading everything i can about parrots and behaviour so i can understand what my actions mean to them as much as theirs to me. I have raised my voice a few times - but quickly snapped myself out of it and felt like a big meanie afterwards.

Sammy's out of the cage from 7:30-8:30am every weekday, and then from 5:15-9/10:00pm most weeknights. Also i'll try and get home from work at lunchtime to give him 45 minutes then too. This isn't every day, but it's more often than not. Of an evening his behaviour generally shapes how long she's out of the cage for - sometimes at night she will go into her cage by himself and when she does i put her to bed (to try and teach her that she can go to bed when she is ready) otherwise she will snuggle up with me and sleep under my chin while i watch tv or am at the computer etc...

Just lately, in the last few weeks her sweet behaviour has changed a bit. She still wants to spend time with me, and will fly to/jump to my shoulder happily most or the time. But lately she's started climbing down my back where i can't reach when i've asked her to step up onto my hand off there. Or she'll nip at my hand, or bite me. The blood's slowly started to come back.

In the last week, to try and combat this change i've been working with her more on training and started with a clicker, as well as rewarding her for letting me touch her wings, lay her back and examine her (in preperation for possible wing clips or vet exams). When laying her back she does express some concern, but taking some advice from a popular youtube trainer i hold her (loosely) until she relaxes and then reward her once she's relaxed. She's getting the idea after only a few days, and is worrying less and less each time - but after doing it a couple of times in a training session she'll run away from my hand if i put it behind her for a while.

Training mostly goes well until she decides she's had enough and either runs away or gets nippy.
I mostly train her from my finger or arm. When i try use a T-stand she just jumps to my shoulder or flies off.

Also she loves my phone, whenever i'm on a call or writing a message etc she usually runs to it and starts chirping a "squeak squeak, squeeeaaaak - kiss kiss kiss kiss" routine. Lately though, when i've gone to move the phone away her eyes pin and she lunges and strikes the phone. This scares me a little, she's bloody quick - and i don't want my face/eyes etc to be on the receiving end of such a lunge (no worry yet!) again this is only in the last few weeks.

Other than this she seems to be happy and healthy - she is spoilt and i show her as much love as i can. She's happy and whistles and chirps while i'm at home with her, and when i walk to another room if she's playing on her cage or stand toy she'll happily have a whistle conversation with me, or fly to meet me...

Her wings were clipped when i got her (not very nicely done, looked very hacked) so i'm letting them grow out at the moment before considering clipping again. I don't mind her flying (only ever from stand/cage to me mostly anyway) but i've read they can be moody with unclipped wings..

So my question, which i apologise is rather long-winded. Is should i be concerned that i'm doing something wrong here to trigger this behaviour change? I don't want to jeopardise our future relationship.
Or should i put this behaviour down to starting bluffing and also coming into breeding season i've read they can be a little more moody?

[ellieelectrons]

Hi Matt

Most if not all of those behaviours you've described there are all behaviours that our Janey has exhibited at some time or other. I believe it's got to do with the maturing process. So, it's not necessarily caused by you, however, since you can only control your behaviour (you can't control your bird's behaviour), you will have to look at how you can modify your behaviour in order for his/her behaviour to change towards you.

Sammy's out of the cage from 7:30-8:30am every weekday, and then from 5:15-9/10:00pm most weeknights

We put our guys to bed at sundown. Having said that, I don't think it is necessary but it could possibly solve the problem you were talking about of her getting ratty at night. They always put themselves to bed. When the sun is down, I turn off all the lights so that they can see its dark and they hop straight to bed. I'm just wondering if more sleep might put her in a better mood. If you find that it makes no difference then by all means go back to what you were doing. Of course at this time of year sundown is quite early so it doesn't give you much time together in the afternoons unfortunately.

For me increasing foraging curbed a lot of this behaviour. Here are some links with more information:
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 01&p=69400
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =4&t=13466
http://www.parrotenrichment.com/ - this site has some free ebooks to download

Introducing more foraging could also make her more interested in positive reinforcement training - this becomes the easy way to get food.

But lately she's started climbing down my back where i can't reach when i've asked her to step up onto my hand off there. Or she'll nip at my hand, or bite me. The blood's slowly started to come back.

The only cure I've found for this unfortunately is to not allow her on your shoulder - just let her sit on your hand. It takes a bit of training but it works 95% of the time with my girl. Any time she hops on my shoulder I go straight to a perch and get her off (using treats if I have to). I introduced this because my girl was prone to bite ears... and bite them hard... so you may not need to be so drastic.

In the last week, to try and combat this change i've been working with her more on training and started with a clicker, as well as rewarding her for letting me touch her wings, lay her back and examine her (in preperation for possible wing clips or vet exams). When laying her back she does express some concern, but taking some advice from a popular youtube trainer i hold her (loosely) until she relaxes and then reward her once she's relaxed. She's getting the idea after only a few days, and is worrying less and less each time - but after doing it a couple of times in a training session she'll run away from my hand if i put it behind her for a while.

Personally, I don't advocate the training that gets your bird to do things that concern/scare your birds... however, I also don't have a bird that will lie in her back... I would just watch using this technique and if you find that she is trusting you less, maybe lay off that technique for a while. This article might be of interest to you:
http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com.au/2012 ... rrots.html

I mostly train her from my finger or arm. When i try use a T-stand she just jumps to my shoulder or flies off.

I'm wondering if your bird is overfed? If so, foraging will help. Mine will rarely jump off their training gym whilst we are doing a training session because they love training so much. BTW - there's nothing wrong with short training sessions. It must be hard training on your arm if you are doing clickers, treats, etc.

Also she loves my phone, whenever i'm on a call or writing a message etc she usually runs to it and starts chirping a "squeak squeak, squeeeaaaak - kiss kiss kiss kiss" routine. Lately though, when i've gone to move the phone away her eyes pin and she lunges and strikes the phone. This scares me a little, she's bloody quick - and i don't want my face/eyes etc to be on the receiving end of such a lunge (no worry yet!) again this is only in the last few weeks.

That's very normal... if Janey was on my shoulder and I took a phone call, she would definitely lunge and strike the phone. I think this is probably a fear response. My birds tend to start talking and squarking when I'm on the phone too. I think it's natural - they hear you talking so they talk back. Annoying, but natural! I try not to have my birds with me when I answer the phone but if I can't avoid it, I put the phone on speaker and hold it away from my face.

Of an evening his behaviour generally shapes how long she's out of the cage for - sometimes at night she will go into her cage by himself and when she does i put her to bed (to try and teach her that she can go to bed when she is ready) otherwise she will snuggle up with me and sleep under my chin while i watch tv or am at the computer etc...

On a final note... I think you'd be better putting your bird to bed earlier (hopefully prior to the bad behaviour). That way you are setting yourself up for success. It could be that your bird is misbehaving because it is tired or because it wants to go to bed.


Good luck and best wishes. I hope something in there helps.

Ellie.

[mattcoffs]

Hi Ellie - thanks again for your thoughts!

Yes i thought perhaps it may be a tiredness thing - but i have a light on most of the time she's out and her cage is in sight/reach with the door wide open. She can go back whenever she wants and i will let her stay there if she does - but usually she'll sit with me. Infact, she won't actually sit anywhere else usually, no matter how hard i try!!!
So far tonight she's been totally sweet and loving. Nary a peep or lash out of her! Happy to sit and preen herself, cuddle into my cheek or wreak her usual havoc at my computer desk! She's entertaining herself right now tearing a vitamin water label off into tiny pieces!

Unfortunately if i put her to bed at sundown that would mean no time together at night, and i thought the more time i spend with her especially while she's young and we're still "new" friends the better. Maybe this isn't quite right?

Oh and the phone thing i should clarify, she actually loves it i think. Usually she gets right up close, pins her eyes and makes cute noises to it, nibbles at it - and that's not even on a call just in my hand. She'll chase it if i try and hide it from her. She's only started lunging at it in the last few weeks and that's why i'm concerned.

I have been giving her light foraging since almost day one. I've got a few different things, an orange rubber thing with holes in it and i made a couple of things out of some bamboo, as well as coffee filters and skewers etc... Anything too complicated and she doesn't get it! At least, not yet.

Also she's learned a bunch. She can turnaround, shake hands, give me a kiss, she's now grasping the target stick and learning to wave, she'll hang upside down fron my finger like a bat without a care in the world too! I guess when i look at it like that i've been doing alright to have her doing all that in only a few months? She also loves beak rubs and foot rubs, and i can pat her basically anywhere (especially at night) - during the day she doesn't much like me touching her wings but i'm working with her with treats for this too!

As for overfeeding, perhaps. I actually don't really rashon her food. She has seed in a bowl - not heaps usually about 5-10mm deep in a stainless medium sized bowl (which i replace every second day when she's eaten it all), and i'll usually give her two slices of apple (about an eighth of a whole apple each, or slightly less) or the equivalent amount of other fresh vegetables/fruit a day. I either have peanuts for her to forage or hide the fruit. When i train i use sunflower seeds, crushed pieces of peanut, or some dried birdie fruit treats...
Is this too much? Would i be better rashoning her seed per day? What portion would i use?

I've been wanting to get her a new cage ever since i got her, as i'd love her to have more room. It's bad timing as just after i got her my strata hurt me badly with a special levy of 6k - so i'm still trying to pay that before i can splurge on a new cage. Her cage at the moment is 50 high 45 wide and 35 deep.

Sorry for all the questions Ellie! I am only a few months into this. I thought i was kicking real butt with her until a few weeks ago. Before then she was absolutely perfect and i guess she's still really really good. Maybe i made her sound worse than she is, these are more isolated occasions that only really happen a couple of times each time she's out, and only lately.

Maybe i'm just feeling a little bummed because i've been trying really hard to do all the right things, and i don't want to screw it up! I didn't realise that parrots were so much harder than say a budgie or a cockatiel - but i am enjoying the rewards! She can be a really good friend - and she gives me a bunch of laughs

[mattcoffs]

Oh hey Ellie, i forgot to ask another thing...

Sometimes when i'm at my computer desk, day or night doesn't matter, she'll (perhaps get bored) climb down and sit under the desk on my knee. She doesn't get up to mischief there - mainly just sits quietly or preens herself. Occasionally if i try and remove her she'll get a bit stroppy. Is this her way of having a break from interacting with me do you think? Or otherwise, what would you think she's trying to say?

[ellieelectrons]

Sometimes when i'm at my computer desk, day or night doesn't matter, she'll (perhaps get bored) climb down and sit under the desk on my knee. She doesn't get up to mischief there - mainly just sits quietly or preens herself. Occasionally if i try and remove her she'll get a bit stroppy. Is this her way of having a break from interacting with me do you think? Or otherwise, what would you think she's trying to say?

I don't really know what she's trying to say... If your bird is content on your knee I wouldn't worry about it.

I had given up letting my birds join me when working at my desk because they'd be trying to chew my pencil or bite the computer keys, etc.... and because Janey turned into an ear biter... Charlie will also bite ears but not hard and only when he's bored. I also tried putting a gym in my office so they could sit there and watch me work but they'd always jump on me... Interestingly, I had a bit of a houseflood 6 weeks ago and my office got flooded... so whilst we await the insurance company to do the work on the house, I'm now working from the loungeroom... and now that my birds are a bit older, they seem to cope with my work space much better. Charlie likes to perch on the monitor... I think he's hoping for me to play some IRN youtube vids. Janey will occasionally do that too... but mostly she's happy watching from her gym.... so when I finally get my office back, I will have to try this again!

I think with most situations, eventually they should learn acceptable behaviour... I think I'd work on the principle that every time they do something you don't want them to be doing in that situation, take them back to their cage.

Ellie.

[ellieelectrons]

Yes i thought perhaps it may be a tiredness thing - but i have a light on most of the time she's out and her cage is in sight/reach with the door wide open. She can go back whenever she wants and i will let her stay there if she does - but usually she'll sit with me. Infact, she won't actually sit anywhere else usually, no matter how hard i try!!!

It's unlikely she will go back to her cage whilst she thinks its daylight... so if you want to try different bed times, you will need to turn the lights out until she goes to bed. I then cover my bird's cage so that the artificial light won't get in... and I try to leave the room they are in dark (not always easy cos it's the dining room!).

So far tonight she's been totally sweet and loving. Nary a peep or lash out of her! Happy to sit and preen herself, cuddle into my cheek or wreak her usual havoc at my computer desk! She's entertaining herself right now tearing a vitamin water label off into tiny pieces!

That's good. When I had some out of character problems with Janey a week or so ago, she only bit me twice... but she bit hard and in the one day... so I wanted to try to fix the problem as soon as possible before it became a habit... and so far, what we did seems to have worked!

Unfortunately if i put her to bed at sundown that would mean no time together at night, and i thought the more time i spend with her especially while she's young and we're still "new" friends the better. Maybe this isn't quite right?

You don't have to go with sundown.... but maybe try earlier... say an hour or two after sundown... and if after a week or so it makes no difference, then don't worry too much about it... but I think it's worth a try.

Oh and the phone thing i should clarify, she actually loves it i think. Usually she gets right up close, pins her eyes and makes cute noises to it, nibbles at it - and that's not even on a call just in my hand. She'll chase it if i try and hide it from her. She's only started lunging at it in the last few weeks and that's why i'm concerned.

I guess the key here is to figure out why she's lunging at it. Could she be jealous that it gets your attention? What are the circumstances around the lunging? If it's that your on a call, then it could very well be that it's distracting you from her... so maybe trying not to be on the phone when she's on you or using the speaker phone could fix it?

I have been giving her light foraging since almost day one. I've got a few different things, an orange rubber thing with holes in it and i made a couple of things out of some bamboo, as well as coffee filters and skewers etc... Anything too complicated and she doesn't get it! At least, not yet.

She is young yet but keep trying. My vet seemed to think they should forage for 90% of their food. I struggled with how to scaffold the foraging so that it wasn't too hard. The posts that I linked to earlier have some other ideas on that too. I've got one foraging toy that they don't seem to be able to figure out and some that seem too easy for them now. (They're the ones they rush to in the morning as soon as I put them in the cage.)

Also she's learned a bunch. She can turnaround, shake hands, give me a kiss, she's now grasping the target stick and learning to wave, she'll hang upside down fron my finger like a bat without a care in the world too! I guess when i look at it like that i've been doing alright to have her doing all that in only a few months? She also loves beak rubs and foot rubs, and i can pat her basically anywhere (especially at night) - during the day she doesn't much like me touching her wings but i'm working with her with treats for this too!

Very cool! Well done! I think she might have more tricks than my guys! You are doing really well.

As for overfeeding, perhaps. I actually don't really rashon her food. She has seed in a bowl - not heaps usually about 5-10mm deep in a stainless medium sized bowl (which i replace every second day when she's eaten it all), and i'll usually give her two slices of apple (about an eighth of a whole apple each, or slightly less) or the equivalent amount of other fresh vegetables/fruit a day. I either have peanuts for her to forage or hide the fruit. When i train i use sunflower seeds, crushed pieces of peanut, or some dried birdie fruit treats...
Is this too much? Would i be better rashoning her seed per day? What portion would i use?

Every time I go to the avian vet he tells me I overfeed them... and I don't know why but it's something I really struggle with. He says that they won't overeat but they will only eat the most appealing foods which means they will fill up on the fatty and sugary foods and they may not get a balanced diet. My husband is always telling me to cut back on their food... but I really struggle... He jokingly says that if something's bigger than the size of their head, I shouldn't give it to them. So, I don't know the answer to this one, but maybe we should post it and see if someone can answer - I might post it on my vets facebook wall and see what they say. One rule of thumb could be if they have eaten all of their food when you go to replace it, you've given them too much... and you could keep experimenting that way? maybe just aim for a small amount left so you know they haven't starved? I'm not really sure.

I've been wanting to get her a new cage ever since i got her, as i'd love her to have more room. It's bad timing as just after i got her my strata hurt me badly with a special levy of 6k - so i'm still trying to pay that before i can splurge on a new cage. Her cage at the moment is 50 high 45 wide and 35 deep.

Always get as big a cage as you can afford and you have the space for. I have two birds and I have a patio aviary. I have seen IRNs kept in cages the size you are talking about and it's ok... but down the track I'd investigate a bigger one.

Sorry for all the questions Ellie! I am only a few months into this. I thought i was kicking real butt with her until a few weeks ago. Before then she was absolutely perfect and i guess she's still really really good. Maybe i made her sound worse than she is, these are more isolated occasions that only really happen a couple of times each time she's out, and only lately.

No need to be sorry. I learn a lot from being on these boards and I enjoy sharing back what I've learned. When Janey went through the maturing process, I got a big shock when her behaviour changed... but we got through it... and you will too... and I think you'll do a better job than I did. I'm sure we gave her all sorts of neurosis when she was young and we reap the benefits now.

I know what you're saying about it sounding worse than it is. I sometimes feel that too. But I think you're doing the right thing trying to get on top of these behaviours before they become the norm.

Maybe i'm just feeling a little bummed because i've been trying really hard to do all the right things, and i don't want to screw it up! I didn't realise that parrots were so much harder than say a budgie or a cockatiel - but i am enjoying the rewards! She can be a really good friend - and she gives me a bunch of laughs

No need to feel bummed, you are doing a really good job... and a much better job than I did when I first got Janey... so keep up the good work. I'll never forget the time I tried to take her in the car with me out of her cage... the car door opened and she freaked out and took off.... and even though her wings were clipped she ended up in the low branches of a tree because our land is slopey.... or the time we decided we wanted to take her everywhere with us and we put her in a converted cat carrier and she get her head stuck between the bars and after over an hour of trying to get her unstuck and her poor little body struggling, my husband had to cut the bars with wire cutters, all the while worried that as she struggled he might accidentally cut her neck! So... you know, compared to me, you're looking like bird carer of the year material. All we need to do is adopt a learning attitude and keep thinking and keep loving these beautiful creatures we get to share our lives with.

Best wishes!

Ellie.

[mattcoffs]

Thanks Ellie

You deserve a medal for the time you put into helping people on this forum. Hopefully when i'm a few years in i can share the same knowledge as well as you do!

I got a chuckle out of the car and cat cage stories, not at your expense - but even with my short time with my Ringneck it seems so typical! "Oh, this looks fun i'll put my head in it!"