is this bluffing?

[jimmyjack]

so salvador, the neighbourhood's friendliest bird who normally i cant keep off my shoulder has suddenly had a character flip. within a day.

its been about six days now, hes not biting, but just very flighty, if i get within 2metres of him, he freaks and bolts around the house. hes not interested in games and showers - occasionally he acts like he is and then remembers that hes meant to be weary (even during "come on", he flew across the room, made to land on my wrist and at the last second turned and fled. The behaviour is particularly uncharacteristic, and has been lasting for roughly a week now.

the behaviour has coincided with several things:
- currently moulting, and his wings growing back (hes always been able to fly, but can now fly considerably better)
- ive grown a beard (hey, its movember!) and i mention this cos he spooks when i wear sunglasses or a hat
- my brother and his partner came to stay for a few days (though he acutally seemed quite taken by them)
- his cage moved from the study/bird room into the lounge room

a similar post listed a few days ago suggested possible illness, but no signs of lethargy, or any discharge from any sort of orrifice (eyes, nose, etc). Nothing has changed in his diet and no exposure to new hazards...

so, back to the original question is this bluffing? how should i react?

[jimmyjack]

just thought id add

- in regards to his cage being moved, its been moved several times previously with no concern to him, and he doesnt spend that much time in it anyway.

- hes roughly one year old

- ive hand-reared him since he was 4-6 weeks old

[jimmyjack]

anybody help?

he's not being aggressive, its more frightened if anything. or avoidance issues...

but it came on literally with a 90 degree shift???

[jimmyjack]

i'd really love some help regarding this.

im baffled as everything ive read about bluffing says they get quite angry. he's not being aggressive, infact its more the opposite hes being less aggressive and its more frightened if anything. or avoidance issues...

but it came on literally with a 90 degree shift??? normally he just loves to hang out, play, live on my shoulder, eat from my hand, play games, have showers. if he's on a branch i call 'salvador...c'mon' and he flys over. all just stopped. he still flys around, plays with his toys, talks, eats alot, is inquisitive when we have something interesting. but wants ZERO social interaction, and will do anything to get away, darting around exhausting himself and occasionally flying into the window (which NEVER happens normally).

Ive been trying to act normal, talk to him, offer treats, play games, say hello, walk around with him. Ive been catching him mid-flight aswell (quite gently, and always with a treat to offer) as its the only way to get him back.

[jimmyjack]

sorry to bump this, but im really quite desperate for a response to this???

(one of the posts atleast was an accident, i tried to edit it, but it just posted as another response)

thank you

[hockey18]

Hello,

From what I'm understanding your problem is the bird is flying away when he never used to? Well, there are several explanations to this.


- 1, Yes it could be the beard. Shave and you'll know.

- 2, No it's not the beard, but now that the bird has flown successfully on several occasions, why would he then stop? Clip the wings and see if the bird stays on your shoulder.

- 3, Perhaps it is bluffing. Stay patient and keep the trust between you and your bird. Have the wings clipped so the bird doesn't get hurt, and interact with him as you always have.

I think to find the answer to your question you'll have to make a checklist and go through all of them. If shaving doesn't work, do the next thing.

[ellieelectrons]

With my two little guys, as they "become adults", I had to build the relationship with them again. This is a bit annoying because I worked so hard before... but I think it's because I was the parent figure before and now I have to become a flock member. I guess the good thing is that at least I shouldn't have to do it again (at least I'm hoping not) once its built this time. So my idea is that you have to treat it almost like a new relationship and build it up again. My two are now two and three years old respectively and I'm feeling like the three year old and I can communicate with each other way better than we ever could before... so it takes time but it is worth it. If you got there before, I'm sure you'll get there again.

Good luck and best wishes!

Ellie.

P.S. I do trim the wings on my birds but I'm hoping that I will be able to let them grow back in within the next couple of years. The wing trimming definitely makes them easier to manage but I can understand why some don't want to do that.

[jimmyjack]

hha thanks hockey. well no, it wasnt the beard

i think i am going to have to clip his wings again its easy enough to say "maintain the relationship" and keep acting as you would, but if he doesnt let you near him to act that way, kinda makes it difficult. i guess i'll clip him this time and then hopefully by the next time they grow back, hes his normal self again...

[phildez]

Hi jimmyjack

Im replying as this seems similar to my scenario...all except for the beard lol!

My irns coming upto the time of his first moult and his flight feathers are coming back into action now. I would say that im not convinced he is bluffing as the reason he is more flighty than usual and doesnt always step up as before is purely because he's gaining use of his wings again. I have read elsewhere that once their wings grow back they do become slightly distant and even appear 'cocky'. But so far so good!

This is what I suspect is up with mine, I hope it has helped you!

Anything else just ask
Phil

[*kimi*]

I have a question about bluffing as my youngster is going thru it i think. i have owned a ringneck before, although he was already 1 when I got him and never bit me, he was just scared, but came around after some time.

My bird is sporatically biting me and the rest of the fam, and with two young kids in the house, it is a bit of a concern. The bird was quite friendly at first, but is very confident, he/she will fly to me and my head without fear all the time, but if I leave it there it will decide to come to my shoulder and bite my neck/ear. now with bluffing it says to 'ignore' the behaviour and it will eventually stop. Now I'm sorry but how the hell am I supposed to ignore when my parrot happily lands on my hand & bites the crap out of my finger? I really don't see how it's possible to just cop a hard bite over and over without making a sound. The worst thing is he/she loves to interact with the family but just doesn't seem to understand that biting is naughty.

My 2 1/2 year old daughter is very good with the bird even though the poor thing gets bitten all the time, it makes me think that If I was a breeder I would be careful to promote ringnecks as pets for young kids as this stage can be very hard to get through, & there are other parrots that don't go through this stage and are great affordable pets, like the small conure species or the cockatiel. Although If parent supervision is present then it's ok, I'd just hate to see a young child get bitten in the face or something. It's just a shame that these birds go through such weird stages of adolescence before they blossom into the great pets they are known for.

Any help on how to deal with getting bitten and ignoring it would be interesting to hear of.

[ellieelectrons]

I read something on biting recently where a very reputable bird expert (Barbara Heidenreich) didn't recommend ignoring it if the biting was too painful. I will try to find it and give you a summary later today. Her philosophy was remove your hand and leave your bird alone for a bit.

We have two IRNs and one of them when he bites you can usually ignore it but the other you definitely cannot... she bites way too hard.

I think you need to do what you can to stop your bird from getting on your shoulder if you're worried about bites to the face. I will allow one of my birds on my shoulder but not the other. Also, if your bird gets on your shoulder, don't leave your bird on your shoulder too long... The one that I occasionally allow on my shoulder will give me a nibble on the ear sometimes to tell me he is bored and wants to hop down. If our other bird did that, my ear would be bleeding!

If your bird is flying to you and then biting you almost instantaneously, I would be inclined to get its wings clipped (especially if I had children)... but I understand that some people wouldn't consider doing this. We do clip our bird's wings but I am hoping to let them grow out this season and leave them unclipped.

Good luck and I'll let you know if I track down the article.

Ellie.

[Sixty Fiver]

I do not have an issue with clipping a bird's wings if it is for the right reasons and as I saw with my female IRN, who was becoming more reclusive and refused to come or be caught, having her wings clipped resulted in a 180 degree change in her behaviour.

She is presently sitting on my shoulder as I type and as soon as I opened up their cage tonight she stepped up and walked up to my shoulder (her favourite perch) and has been very sweet.

[tanya.l]

our male albino is going through a bad molt atm , he is lunging and being anti social .

also look for anything new around the area he is in , our bird hates anything pink and panics . he also hates hats and sunnies .
could be something simple that the bird is not used to

[ellieelectrons]

If you are looking for ideas on what to do when your bird bites, I suggest you have a look at these techniques suggested by my fav bird training expert Barbara Heidenreich:
http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com.au/2009 ... bites.html

Tips include:
- using a fist to get them to step up
- make them reach for the treat.

I got a subscription to her site for Christmas and there is an article in there with more information. The article is titled "respecting the bite" and she talks about the techniques she uses when working with lions and how she applies those similar approaches with parrots. When she trains lions she trains through barriers and offers reinforces via utensils and tries to avoid the aggressive behaviour. Some points she raises in this article are listed below.

1. PREVENTING THE BITE
- being considerate of what the animal is telling her with its body language. If her being close to the animal provokes a fear or aggression response she sees and acts on it. She does whatever she can to put the animal at-ease. It may include backing away. In the long term, she has found that adopting this approach successfully addresses biting behaviour.
- next she tries to associate a positive reinforcer with her presence so she may offer food treats from her hand, a spoon or a bowl. Depending on the bird, it may also involve offering toys or enrichment, head scratches or praise - whatever the bird shows a preference for. This then starts to create the anticipation of more "good stuff" from your presence. The bird is more engaged and you can feel more trusting of the bird.

2. WHEN THEY BITE
- getting a bite usually means you misread the bird's body language or you asked for a little too much or you just don't know what happened... but regardless, you got bitten.
- she suggests you detach the bird from the person first. If the bird is holding on, a thumb and forefinger can be placed on the top part of the beak to pry the parrot off wahtever is in their mouth. Other strategies include redirecting the parrots attention and putting the bird down in the nearest available safe location.
- pause and think about what you could have done differently to avoid the situation. She also notes that if you want to focus on building trust with your parrot, you do not want to react in a way that the bird would find unpleasant. So she doesn't try to punish the parrot by shaking or dropping her hand, yelling no, flicking its beak, etc. as they may damage efforts to build a successful relationship.

I have copy two paragraphs from her article verbatim below:
"A bite can be very painful and by all means I do not recommend holding steady while a bird chomps away. This is the erroneous idea that by taking the bite the caregiver will teach the bird that biting has no effect. In truth there can be other reinforcers that maintain that behavior over which we have no control. For example grinding away on flesh may provide a stimulating tactile sensation to the bird. The only way to remove that reinforcer is for the bird to not have human flesh in its beak.

Another question often presented to me is “How do you let the parrot know what he did was wrong?” I must admit this question makes me cringe a bit. This is because I see it as a request for approval to use aversives to punish a bird for biting. In reality in most cases aversive punishment would not be the strategy of choice to address biting. The primary goal would have been to avoid creating the situation in which the parrot would be inclined to bite in the first place. This may mean teaching the bird what to do instead of what not to do. It may also mean making antecedent changes to facilitate success for the parrot. There are many pathways that can lead to a non biting outcome had they been considered. All of which do not involve an unpleasant experience to teach the bird to do something other than bite."



Any way, that's another perspective on biting that differs from the "just grin and bear it" strategy. I thought it was worth presenting. I try to live up to these ideals but don't always succeed!

I hope it helps others.

I like Barbara's stuff, I have seen her in action at a training workshop and I own three of her DVDs which are fantastic. To me, she is the real deal. She gets asked to train parrots and other animals by zoos, she has a zoology qualification, she is asked to run parrot workshops all around the world and this is backed up by loads and loads of experience. I am yet to meet someone in the Industry that doesn't speak highly of her techniques.... and on top of all that, she is a really nice person


Ellie.

[*kimi*]

Sorri for the late reply & thanx for your advice. Funny enough before I read your post I had purchased the kindle version of parrot problem solver by Barbara H. And I agree her teaching strategies are great, although I try to follow them sometimes I feel like failure when I'm dealing with my nippy friend. I also can't decide whether to clip or not to clip, I think clipping mite hopefully help, although the thing I find with him is that after reading Barbara's book I still can't really pin point what type of aggression he is showing. I thought it might be learned aggression, but I really don't know for sure. He is a good bird like he flies to me on command, he is starting to say hello and he's only 4 months old. If the biting really is derived from his age or hormones then I guess the best thing I can do Is keep interacting with him as much as possible & every time he randomly bites, just put him back on his cage & walk away for a while then give him another chance. that's all I can come up with. It sucks because all I really want (like you ) is for him to accept the harness, and willfully get his nails trimmed (another Babara H video I'm trying to teach him) the problem with the nail clipping is, that when I ask him to put one foot up for a treat he does it fine, but after a couple of goes he decides that chomping on my nails & fingers is more fun than either treats or training & the whole things turns into a nightmare. So I still haven't been able to clip his nails.

I am purchasing a pair of Alexandrines soon to start out breeding, & I will be taking them for a vet check- I'll also probably bring my nippy Ringneck (Cloud) because I will need to be taught how to clip wings so Cloud can be the demo lol.
The harness I'm slowly getting there with, but trying to achieve getting the harness on is just setting myself up to getting bitten, & with Barbara's strategy she suggests is is best to avoid situations in which you will get bitten, so does that mean I have to avoid harness training all together?

I mean Barbara's training beliefs are great, but it seems with young Ringnecks like mine who were not correctly handraised, the biting is kind of just in there genes. I'm not saying that all ringnecks bite because I had an aviary raised ringneck in the past who never bit me) I'm just saying that it seems that If they arn't correctly handraised like really well-socialized from a very young age, then you are bound to have problems. I mean it's probably that 1 out of 10 ratio that you'll get a non-bitey ringneck from birds that wern't handraised. But in the end I think It really comes down to the handraising process, & because these birds have the tendancy to bite much care and effort needs to be put in so the bubs can go on to be great family pets that don't nip.

[ellieelectrons]

Hi kimi

And I agree her teaching strategies are great, although I try to follow them sometimes I feel like failure when I'm dealing with my nippy friend

I know what you mean... I sometimes feel like that too... although I find I keep going back to her stuff and I pick up something new each time.

Something I have noticed with her birds is that hers always seem to be more calm than mine. Something I was reading recently is about rewarding calmness. With our Janey she doesn't bite too often now but when she does she is usually quite excited. So, I'm spending more time studying her body language before I interact with her and only interact with her when she is calm. With the harness, I've taken to holding it near her and rewarding her for remaining clam and not biting it. If she gets excited or bites it, I put it down, put the treat away, walk away and try again later. Barbara's birds know that if they aren't calm, she won't interact with them. Interestingly, she doesn't talk too loudly to her birds during training (she communicates via treats) as talking can get some birds excited.

I thought this was a good example of rewarding calmness when it comes to going back in the cage:
http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com.au/2009 ... ck-in.html
I know I've been guilty many times of shoving my birds back in the cage when they don't want to go... which works short term but not long term... so I'm starting to work on this now too.

I mean Barbara's training beliefs are great, but it seems with young Ringnecks like mine who were not correctly handraised, the biting is kind of just in there genes. I'm not saying that all ringnecks bite because I had an aviary raised ringneck in the past who never bit me) I'm just saying that it seems that If they arn't correctly handraised like really well-socialized from a very young age, then you are bound to have problems. I mean it's probably that 1 out of 10 ratio that you'll get a non-bitey ringneck from birds that wern't handraised. But in the end I think It really comes down to the handraising process, & because these birds have the tendancy to bite much care and effort needs to be put in so the bubs can go on to be great family pets that don't nip.

I think you are right that some birds are more likely to bite than others. They are all individuals and this is true but I do think we can do things to minimise the biting. Our male bird Charlie hardly knows how to bite... but I think the fact that he is less likely to bite means that I should look even more carefully at his body language because I am less likely to know when he is feeling uncomfortable (note to self).

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Best wishes with your flock!

Ellie.

[*kimi*]

I just want to say that after writing that 1st post, and after trying my best to ignore his biting & returning him to his cage for a bit whenever he did it, sometimes I just say no before I put him back as well.

So now he is alot better, he is still a little bit nippy, but it's only If I try to push things, like I'm trying to get him to let me trim his nails, & he puts his foot up for a bit , but then I get out the clippers & he bites so he doesn't have to get them trimmed, but he barely randomly bites any more, & he has started talking. He's a 2011 youngster, so he's about 6 months old and he says good boy, what are ya doing, cloud, come on, he wolf whistles really well, & is currently practising the final fantasy fanfare song which he has nearly mastered.

He also will let me pat his wings and tail a bit & lets me bath him under a tap without bitng anymore.

I just thought I would put this info up because heaps of people are getting rid of young ringnecks that are going through bluffing stages, & If you read the info in this website it says that they can bluff for up to a year. So I'm seeing a massive improvement on my boy, & I'm hoping by the time he's 1, he can get his nails trimmed, & he won't be biting at all... fingers crossed