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Pallid & PallidIno

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saud
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Pallid & PallidIno

Post by saud » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:51 pm

Hi
can someone please post pictures of blue pallid and blue pallidino.
I want to purchase a bird from an importer who may have some Pallidinos in his stock of Blue Pallids. I want to know the difference in appearance when I go there to buy. I would prefer a Pallidino if available.

Regards

Recio
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Post by Recio » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:28 pm

Hi saud;

Blue-ino = albino
Blue-pallid = creamino
Blue-pallid-ino = somewhere in between albino and creamino (clearer than creamino)
I do not have any pic to show the difference but do not forget that pallidinos are only males. Do not buy any blue pallid-ino female. This bird does not exist. If you want pallidinos look for the clearest of the males.

Fah
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Post by Fah » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:12 pm

This is an area which, in all honestly.. breeding background is the ONLY way to know.

Visually... there are pale pallids, and vibrant pallids, and several inbetween pallids heh...

Now... same goes for pallid-ino's

Traditionally, you only see a real noticable change after several generations of pallidino to ino birds...

I wouldnt buy a pallid or pallidino without knowing its parental history to make sure you get what you get... as visually.. its basicly a lotto.

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saud
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Post by saud » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:38 pm

Thanks Fah
I think I will have to play the lotto. I am planning to pair the blue-pallidino to a turquoise blue hen to get creamino and rainbow hens. I guess getting rainbows only wont be so bad :) I will try to pick the palest bird.

Recio,
I think you made a mistake when you said
"Blue-Pallid=Creamino"

Creamino=Turquoise blue - Ino

Regards

Recio
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Post by Recio » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:40 am

saud wrote: Recio,
I think you made a mistake when you said
"Blue-Pallid=Creamino"

Creamino=Turquoise blue - Ino

Regards
Yes You are right, I was still thinking about cleartails and NSL lutinos.
In fact creamino can be made up of:
Turquoise DF - ino
Turquoise blue - ino
Aqua DF - ino
Aqua blue - ino
Turquoise aqua - ino

If you change in the above combinations ino by pallid or pallidino you can get all the possible genetics for the rainbow IRN.

Hope you get your blue pallidino bird.

Cheers

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saud
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Post by saud » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:10 am

Two Questions
1) How is Aqua different from Turquoise
2) why don't I see Aqua on the genetic calulater?

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Post by madas » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:35 am

saud wrote:Two Questions
1) How is Aqua different from Turquoise
You can see the Turquoise factor only at some areas on body of the birds. eg. on the head, the wings

The Aqua factor will give the bird a Turquoise over the hole body.

See here
saud wrote: 2) why don't I see Aqua on the genetic calulater?
Because it's not implemented yet?!?

Recio
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Post by Recio » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:45 am

saud wrote:Two Questions
1) How is Aqua different from Turquoise
Aqua is a solid colour (it affects the whole birfeathers) and turquoise is a patch colouring, with varying expression, affecting mainly, as Madas said, head and wings. The colour of turquoise in patched areas is something like green in a blue turquoise bird while the colour of aqua is a light blue.
2) why don't I see Aqua on the genetic calulater?
I do not know. May be it has not been implemented because there are 3 alleles of the same locus and it could be difficult, from a mathematical point of view, to elaborate the equations saying which one of is dominant respective to the others. Anyway try to contact Criskoi (I know he has elaborated another software for IRN genetics).

Cheers

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saud
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Post by saud » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:07 pm

so is this Aqua or Turquoise?

Image

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madas
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Post by madas » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:48 pm

I think Turquoise.

Recio
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Post by Recio » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:19 pm

Me too, but wings are not visible ...

smick
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Post by smick » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:07 pm

I HAVE A HEN COLOURED LIKE THIS BIRD AND HER WINGS ARE ALLMOST CLEAR BLUE AS IS HER TAIL. IS THE TOURQUISE NAME MEANING THE SAME AS A PASTEL BLUE, WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TOLD MINE IS.

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Post by madas » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:55 pm

smick wrote:I HAVE A HEN COLOURED LIKE THIS BIRD AND HER WINGS ARE ALLMOST CLEAR BLUE AS IS HER TAIL. IS THE TOURQUISE NAME MEANING THE SAME AS A PASTEL BLUE, WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TOLD MINE IS.
Yes. Turquoise is the same as pastell blue.

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saud
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Post by saud » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:25 am

Just an update.

So I went to the importer with my plan of picking the palest bird in order to get my blue Pallid-ino cock. I picked the palest bird from about 10 birds around 1 year old. And guess what? It turned out to be a Female!

Since a hen cannot be a Pallid-ino it reminded me of this thread. So, I just picked a Pallid male and can only hope that it is a Pallid-Ino.

Regards

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Post by Coastal-Birds » Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:05 pm

Hi saud
Firstly to tell a pallidino it is quiet easy.
Pallidinos are always lighter than a pallid and there flight feathers are pure white,(no lacewing effect).
I will post some picks of a green and pastelblue pallidino for you later whern i have some speed back to upload.
The question on violets has me beat also as here in australia all DF violets i have seen are a much much deeper violet and you can tell them from sf easy.But maybe this isnt always the case in violets.
I have a few violets and all are sf so i cant get a photo of a df myself.
Maybe people i know with them will send me a photo so then i can show what birds here look like.
Cheers

Fah
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Post by Fah » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:26 pm

I am affraid its not as easy as that, yes pallidinos are traditionally the more pale...

However there do exist Light Phase Pallids... brought around possibly due to the paler hens from the combinations being produced being put to normal pallid males... And pallidino cocks being put to pallid hens, more research does need to be done imo, as I think it is being done by some... but Ino seems to have a rather unique effect on the pallid in that it can even affect the hens, that cant carry the ino gene, not close to what the effect can be on the males, but it does have a flow on effect to males they themselves produce.

There is no such thing as dark pallid = pallid and light pallid = pallidino.

Recio
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Post by Recio » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:30 pm

Fah wrote:I am affraid its not as easy as that, yes pallidinos are traditionally the more pale...

However there do exist Light Phase Pallids... brought around possibly due to the paler hens from the combinations being produced being put to normal pallid males... And pallidino cocks being put to pallid hens, more research does need to be done imo, as I think it is being done by some... but Ino seems to have a rather unique effect on the pallid in that it can even affect the hens, that cant carry the ino gene, not close to what the effect can be on the males, but it does have a flow on effect to males they themselves produce.
Hi Fah;

Could you develop further the bold sentence? It goes against commonly accepted genetics.

Fah
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Post by Fah » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:57 pm

It depends on your version of commonly accepted genetics I guess... between the countries there are some remarkable developments in various mutations and genes in Indian Ringnecks.

Ino is a sex linked gene but it is linked to pallid.

We have put (not just me... those people I know that have bred several generations of pallids to ino's to lighten the birds, by several I am talking about 4 generations plus) pallidino to ino over and over, the males more drastically change to the lighter phase, infact we have had a bird down here that was a pallidino grey, that was white as snow (able to tell difference between the albino easily enough up close but not because of the grey shading.. that was near non existant).

Now... having put those birds to albino's you get similarly pale 'white' males with very pale hens. It seemed we hit a dead end with the hens colour, it was just a very pale form of pallid grey.

This did not happen overnight... we are talking about years upon years of work, so just putting a pallidino to an ino, will not 'get you results'.

There was a discussion on Australia's Light-Phase and Dark-Phase anomolie here

http://www.indianringneck.com/board/vie ... ight+phase

I think people hold what they believe with Indian Ringnecks, as all that there is to learn... when really there is still so much that Indian Ringnecks have not shown us, and are showing us now.

Might we be working with two visual forms of pallid here? I dont know... I dont think anyone knows at the moment at what level these birds differ.

Recio
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Post by Recio » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:51 am

Fah wrote:It depends on your version of commonly accepted genetics I guess... between the countries there are some remarkable developments in various mutations and genes in Indian Ringnecks.

Ino is a sex linked gene but it is linked to pallid.
Hi Fah;
The version of commonly accepted genetics (as you know): ino and pallid as diferent alleles of the same locus in the X cromosome (Mutavi, genetic calculator, ...)

When you say that ino is linked to pallid, are you meaning that they are linked as blue and dark, or are you meaning that they are different alleles of the same locus? I guess that this is an error of expression, but if it was not the case, then the lighting of pallids repeteadly put to ino could be easier to explain than with the hypothesis of ino and pallid as heteroalleles.

Fah
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Post by Fah » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:15 am

It was bad terminology, but I am trying to make it comprehensible for the forum.. not just for a possibility of 5 or 6 people to understand on the forums... sometimes I guess its not always well done on my part.

I honestly believe, at least here in Australia (as other implications can be seen between some of the dom. 'pieds' that are popping up around the world in its own situation) that there is some phenotypic variation within pallid. This could account for the fact that some breeding in other nations have not shown a similar variation in their pallid lines through similar breeding backgrounds. As I do not in other words understand how such an occurance isnt going on in other parts of the world and that they seem to have just the one visual form of pallid, regardless of mixing with ino/pallidino birds.

I am not refuting ino and pallid reccognition by mutavi, but I do believe there is more to this.

I am not saying we 'may' have pale pallids.. im saying we 'do' have pale pallids, two hens side by side in blue can be quite the different birds here in Australia and such an explanation only seems valid at this time from my experience, and I am not saying what I believe is gospel, but I do believe there is some explanation to be had, and maybe soon enough we will have it.

Recio
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Post by Recio » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:48 am

Yes, there is always a rational explanation but it can take years to find it. I have pallids and lutinos, but a 4 generations experiment to test them would take at least 8 years, and may be they do not belong to the right pallid subtype.

What a boring world it would be if we had all the explanations !!!

Cheers

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