Alexandrine looks almost the same as ringneck, is it possible that they mate with each other and produce an offspring, I mean they look the same afterall, only alexandrine have bigger head and beak, or is there more difference?
P.S can anyone here tell me a detailed infromation on how to tell the difference between alexandrine and ringneck parakeet.
Alexandrine and Ringneck parakeet
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giantfoot_truck
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is it possible that they mate with each other and produce an offspring, I mean they look the same afterall, only alexandrine have bigger head and beak, or is there more difference?
What would be the purpose and why would you want to cross two different speices? Don't screw with Mother Nature.
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
Its true, we can't mess around with mother nature but it is quite interesting. Just not practical though.
Alexandrines are much bigger overall. They also have a lil red in the wings. I'm looking into Alexandrines as I think they will be my next birdies and I want to research before bringing one home.
Alexandrines are much bigger overall. They also have a lil red in the wings. I'm looking into Alexandrines as I think they will be my next birdies and I want to research before bringing one home.
"Jibby aka Gilbert" Indian Ringneck 13 years "Charlie" Rex Rabbit 1 year
Good post! Alexandrines and Indian Ringnecks can breed and in fact this has been done.
So is it wrong? I’ll leave that up to you to decide; however, let me put this in perspective for you. Dogs are a perfect example of breeding to get desired traits. Here is an interesting website on the subject!
http://www.irnmutations.com/index.html
Good post,
Imran Chaudhry
So is it wrong? I’ll leave that up to you to decide; however, let me put this in perspective for you. Dogs are a perfect example of breeding to get desired traits. Here is an interesting website on the subject!
http://www.irnmutations.com/index.html
Good post,
Imran Chaudhry
I'm on both sides. I think its wrong when cross breeding can result in illness and such even death, but then if there is no problems related to the breeding of 2 different species of bird then I don't see why not. I mean its not like breeding a dog with a bird. Now that would be just wrong.
IRNs and Alexandrines are of the same family aswell.
Your right Imran it is a great topic.
IRNs and Alexandrines are of the same family aswell.
Your right Imran it is a great topic.
"Jibby aka Gilbert" Indian Ringneck 13 years "Charlie" Rex Rabbit 1 year
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catschair2
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That's an interesting website on hybridizing Alexandrines and IRNs. However, Phil Moulton's first few lines read:
"My goal is to produce mutation colors, and thus more market interest, in the Alexandrine... "
To me this is all about making money. He goes on and rants about prices, affordability, expenses..yada yada yada.
Although Mother Nature does her own hybridization, mutation, and inbreeding in the wild, the resulting progeny that does not improve the survivability and resiliency of the species are methodically culled through natural selection (think Darwin). Because of the money involved, I don't think any of the F1, F2, and earlier hybrid generations are culled among breeders who hybridize. Most are likely sold as pets.
With all due respect to other posters who are also entitled to their own opinion, I don't think breeding birds who don't even belong to the same species (Psittacula Krameri vs. Psittacula Eupatria) is right if your only goal is to produce beautiful colors to make more money.
"My goal is to produce mutation colors, and thus more market interest, in the Alexandrine... "
To me this is all about making money. He goes on and rants about prices, affordability, expenses..yada yada yada.
Although Mother Nature does her own hybridization, mutation, and inbreeding in the wild, the resulting progeny that does not improve the survivability and resiliency of the species are methodically culled through natural selection (think Darwin). Because of the money involved, I don't think any of the F1, F2, and earlier hybrid generations are culled among breeders who hybridize. Most are likely sold as pets.
With all due respect to other posters who are also entitled to their own opinion, I don't think breeding birds who don't even belong to the same species (Psittacula Krameri vs. Psittacula Eupatria) is right if your only goal is to produce beautiful colors to make more money.
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Newbirdmom
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I can't help to think back in the year when there where only a few breeds of dogs or horse even cats. I am sure people got mad at them for breeding 2 breeds together. Isn't this the same thing? I went to a bird show and there was an awsome hybird of a macaw. He was so sweet I feel in love with him but so many people said that it was worg for him to do that. I guess I am kind of on the middle on this too.
depois do prazer wrote: I don't think breeding birds who don't even belong to the same species (Psittacula Krameri vs. Psittacula Eupatria) is right if your only goal is to produce beautiful colors to make more money.
Agreed. I didnt even think of how money/greed would play a part in this. But I guess I don't think of parrots as money trees. So sad that some people do.
I'm still in the middle too. But a good debate this is.
"Jibby aka Gilbert" Indian Ringneck 13 years "Charlie" Rex Rabbit 1 year
This is my opinion! If you want an Alex buy one if you want a ringneck buy one. Same goes for dogs. I'm a breeder of standard poodles and I don't breed them to Labs. We call these Labradoodle designer muts because people just do it for the money. In the begining the lab was bred to the poodle for a better service dog Why I ask? Their both smart dogs and do service work quite well so why mix them. If your going to say a Labradoodle don't shed you are very wrong. I'm also a proffesional dog groomer. Why cross any thing your not gaining anything.
Donna
Why I ask? Their both smart dogs and do service work quite well so why mix them. If your going to say a Labradoodle don't shed you are very wrong. I'm also a proffesional dog groomer. Why cross any thing your not gaining anything.
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
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giantfoot_truck
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Woohoo lots of debate here! let me hop in to the debate too! 
Donna are you angry at me or something for posting this question? I was only asking, Im not going to do it though, and this question is useful for anyone who dont know about it, not just me. Do I sound like Im really going to breed them? I cant even find alexandrine here, how can I ever breed them.
There are lots of other animal that have been cross bred before, dogs, fish, and even macaw, there are lots of hybrid macaw, so I dont think there is anything wrong with cross breeding alexandrine and ringneck, which is both parakeet.
And I dont think cross breeding is "dont screw with mother nature", because who knows maybe ringneck and alexandrine have already cross bred with each other before human even tried it, they both live in india, so there is a chance they will meet each other and eventually cross bred, right?
Why hate hybrid? They are still a living thing, and now that they have existed, lets give them a good home, dont hate them, because some people hate hybrid just because they are not naturally existed... and they feel like these animal should have never existed, why? They are normal living thing that is born from two LIVING THINGS, they are not produced by machine.
Im sad that many people hate the blood parrot cichlid(fish), it is a hybrid of different kind of cichlid, I mean why hate them???? they are like any other living thing and they need home, when they exist it doesn't mean its because of human, its because god create them to exist in the world, so if they are succesfully bred and live a normal life, it is not screwing with mother nature.
Like liger, why do it exist? because god want it to exist, its not because of human... and all of these other hybrid.
Its not like I support the people who cross breed them, what can I do about them? I cant stop them and nobody can, just like all these disgusting porn site all over the internet that ruin childrens and teens mind, noone can stop them!
And thanks imran for letting me know these two can actually be bred together, do you have the pic of the offspring prdouced?
Donna
Yes you gain something if you cross bred something, you gain a precious life that need home and care like all of us did!
Do they have to have special use just because they are hybrid?
You sound like; "if hybrid is successfully produced, they must have special use, but if not, they should not be continued"
Is that what you are thinking?
Just because hybrid are made, it doesn't mean they must have special use...
Donna are you angry at me or something for posting this question? I was only asking, Im not going to do it though, and this question is useful for anyone who dont know about it, not just me. Do I sound like Im really going to breed them? I cant even find alexandrine here, how can I ever breed them.
There are lots of other animal that have been cross bred before, dogs, fish, and even macaw, there are lots of hybrid macaw, so I dont think there is anything wrong with cross breeding alexandrine and ringneck, which is both parakeet.
And I dont think cross breeding is "dont screw with mother nature", because who knows maybe ringneck and alexandrine have already cross bred with each other before human even tried it, they both live in india, so there is a chance they will meet each other and eventually cross bred, right?
Why hate hybrid? They are still a living thing, and now that they have existed, lets give them a good home, dont hate them, because some people hate hybrid just because they are not naturally existed... and they feel like these animal should have never existed, why? They are normal living thing that is born from two LIVING THINGS, they are not produced by machine.
Im sad that many people hate the blood parrot cichlid(fish), it is a hybrid of different kind of cichlid, I mean why hate them???? they are like any other living thing and they need home, when they exist it doesn't mean its because of human, its because god create them to exist in the world, so if they are succesfully bred and live a normal life, it is not screwing with mother nature.
Like liger, why do it exist? because god want it to exist, its not because of human... and all of these other hybrid.
Its not like I support the people who cross breed them, what can I do about them? I cant stop them and nobody can, just like all these disgusting porn site all over the internet that ruin childrens and teens mind, noone can stop them!
And thanks imran for letting me know these two can actually be bred together, do you have the pic of the offspring prdouced?
Donna
Yes you gain something if you cross bred something, you gain a precious life that need home and care like all of us did!
Do they have to have special use just because they are hybrid?
You sound like; "if hybrid is successfully produced, they must have special use, but if not, they should not be continued"
Is that what you are thinking?
Just because hybrid are made, it doesn't mean they must have special use...
Last edited by giantfoot_truck on Fri May 25, 2007 2:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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giantfoot_truck
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First off I'm not angry or mad at anybody 
I can have an adult debate without name calling or bad words. This is just how I feel about cross breeding. Have you ever visited a puppy mill or a birdie mill where they breed the living day lights out of animals and then throw them in the trash when they quit producing? It's sad these peoples only intentions are to get the all mighty dollar and care nothing about the animal. I love all animals not just the purebreeds. When breeding any animal gets in the wrong hands of greedy people then we start seeing all the problems. I'm sorry that I sound mean and I apologize for that but I see the good the bad and the ugly every day due to people just breeding to be breeding.
Donna
I can have an adult debate without name calling or bad words. This is just how I feel about cross breeding. Have you ever visited a puppy mill or a birdie mill where they breed the living day lights out of animals and then throw them in the trash when they quit producing? It's sad these peoples only intentions are to get the all mighty dollar and care nothing about the animal. I love all animals not just the purebreeds. When breeding any animal gets in the wrong hands of greedy people then we start seeing all the problems. I'm sorry that I sound mean and I apologize for that but I see the good the bad and the ugly every day due to people just breeding to be breeding.Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
This is an artical from a very good friend of mine and he hits on some very good points way some birds should not be crossed.
There's many pure bred species of parrots that exist today. Most of them are classified as species and their sub species.
Some examples ..Amazons, Cockatoos, African Greys, Macaws and others. Some other species of parrots were originally hybrids but have evolved into purebreds such as Lovebirds so this doesn't apply to different species that fit this description.
With some of these species interbreeding is possible and with others, it's not. Some people who own certain types of birds that can inter breed with each other feel that because it can be done then it's all right to let it happen.
All species and subspecies of a certain bird have individual unique personalities even though they belong to the same family.
Taking a B/G macaw and breeding it with a Military or a Scarlet Macaw and breeding it with a Green Winged Macaw or other subspecies of macaw creates a bird who's personality is abnormal. That applies to all the different large macaws. Inter breeding these birds creates hybrids. The main reason that most people do this is to enhance coloration. Pure bred macaws come in many beautiful colors and i don't believe that changing coloration is a legitimate reason for doing this. The growth of the bird is affected, the personality becomes affected especially in the emotions department, the resistance to illness becomes affected, possible
Aggressive behavior, self mutilations etc. Actually a hybrid can turn out to be better in all areas as opposed to the parents but on the other hand they can turn out to be much worse than the parents. It's a toss up and that isn't good. All of these things can apply to other species of parrots that have the ability to interbreed.
There's no proof that these birds that can be interbred will ever do that in the wild. Also, concerning coloration, if that same B/G and Military are bred again, there's no way of telling what the coloration of that new clutch of chicks will be. That also applies to the personalities of that new clutch of chicks. Only people are the ones involved in creating hybrids.
My feelings are the same about any family of parrots that have the ability to interbreed.
There are other species of parrots that won't interbreed no matter who tries to accomplish it.
I'll use Amazons as an example and feature 3 types that closely resemble each other . A Double Yellow Head, a Yellow Naped and a Yellow Crowned.
None of these amazons will mate with each other in the wild nor in a home environment. In the wild, nature dictates that it's not natural even though they're the same same, almost the same color and eat the same types of food, live in the same type of environment. Nature also dictates that macaws will only breed with their own species in the wild.
This also applies to all species of Cockatoos. An example --A Lesser Sulpher Crested and a Greater Sulpher Crested. Both look practically the same. Both are the same size, eat the same food yet they will not breed with each other. They're the same as Macaws, Amazons and other parrots in that each species of Cockatoo and their subspecies has it's own unique personality.
Another thing that's terrible are the people who will give anything to breed a Congo African grey with a Timneh African Grey. Luckily, it's next to impossible. For one thing, incubation time is different. Anyone who knows a lot about greys has also heard about how different their personalities are. If there were 7 or 8 different types of african grey, it would be easier to use the same reasoning that I apply to Amazons and others. Unfortunately, there's only 2 types.
From time to time, there's people who will say that they own a mixed grey but I feel that they actually own a congo grey that happens to be smaller then the norm or they own a timneh that happens to be a little larger than the norm. Of course, the color of the bird also helps to people make that decision concerning their 'hybrid grey'. It may be a congo who's tail feathers are very dark with a small amount of the obvious red or a timneh who's tail feathers have less maroon color but more red color than the norm. All of that coloration has to do with the different amounts of carotene that both greys have.
.
There's many pure bred species of parrots that exist today. Most of them are classified as species and their sub species.
Some examples ..Amazons, Cockatoos, African Greys, Macaws and others. Some other species of parrots were originally hybrids but have evolved into purebreds such as Lovebirds so this doesn't apply to different species that fit this description.
With some of these species interbreeding is possible and with others, it's not. Some people who own certain types of birds that can inter breed with each other feel that because it can be done then it's all right to let it happen.
All species and subspecies of a certain bird have individual unique personalities even though they belong to the same family.
Taking a B/G macaw and breeding it with a Military or a Scarlet Macaw and breeding it with a Green Winged Macaw or other subspecies of macaw creates a bird who's personality is abnormal. That applies to all the different large macaws. Inter breeding these birds creates hybrids. The main reason that most people do this is to enhance coloration. Pure bred macaws come in many beautiful colors and i don't believe that changing coloration is a legitimate reason for doing this. The growth of the bird is affected, the personality becomes affected especially in the emotions department, the resistance to illness becomes affected, possible
Aggressive behavior, self mutilations etc. Actually a hybrid can turn out to be better in all areas as opposed to the parents but on the other hand they can turn out to be much worse than the parents. It's a toss up and that isn't good. All of these things can apply to other species of parrots that have the ability to interbreed.
There's no proof that these birds that can be interbred will ever do that in the wild. Also, concerning coloration, if that same B/G and Military are bred again, there's no way of telling what the coloration of that new clutch of chicks will be. That also applies to the personalities of that new clutch of chicks. Only people are the ones involved in creating hybrids.
My feelings are the same about any family of parrots that have the ability to interbreed.
There are other species of parrots that won't interbreed no matter who tries to accomplish it.
I'll use Amazons as an example and feature 3 types that closely resemble each other . A Double Yellow Head, a Yellow Naped and a Yellow Crowned.
None of these amazons will mate with each other in the wild nor in a home environment. In the wild, nature dictates that it's not natural even though they're the same same, almost the same color and eat the same types of food, live in the same type of environment. Nature also dictates that macaws will only breed with their own species in the wild.
This also applies to all species of Cockatoos. An example --A Lesser Sulpher Crested and a Greater Sulpher Crested. Both look practically the same. Both are the same size, eat the same food yet they will not breed with each other. They're the same as Macaws, Amazons and other parrots in that each species of Cockatoo and their subspecies has it's own unique personality.
Another thing that's terrible are the people who will give anything to breed a Congo African grey with a Timneh African Grey. Luckily, it's next to impossible. For one thing, incubation time is different. Anyone who knows a lot about greys has also heard about how different their personalities are. If there were 7 or 8 different types of african grey, it would be easier to use the same reasoning that I apply to Amazons and others. Unfortunately, there's only 2 types.
From time to time, there's people who will say that they own a mixed grey but I feel that they actually own a congo grey that happens to be smaller then the norm or they own a timneh that happens to be a little larger than the norm. Of course, the color of the bird also helps to people make that decision concerning their 'hybrid grey'. It may be a congo who's tail feathers are very dark with a small amount of the obvious red or a timneh who's tail feathers have less maroon color but more red color than the norm. All of that coloration has to do with the different amounts of carotene that both greys have.
.
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
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giantfoot_truck
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- Location: Jakarta, Jeddah
No, Im not going to be a birdie mill...
My purpose for asking this question is just to know whether these two can be bred together or not, its a fun and interesting fact to know; yet you guys reply with all these "agree and disagree" and "whats the benefit" of producing hybrid, especially to one member who start saying "dont screw with mother nature"
Its only a curious question that I ask, not anything serious that make me want to breed them.
It looks like Im picking on someone but that someone has to know how to be respectful when answering people's question, because I ask question with respect and manner, so I demand a respectful answer.
But thanks for at least replying anyway...
My purpose for asking this question is just to know whether these two can be bred together or not, its a fun and interesting fact to know; yet you guys reply with all these "agree and disagree" and "whats the benefit" of producing hybrid, especially to one member who start saying "dont screw with mother nature"
Its only a curious question that I ask, not anything serious that make me want to breed them.
It looks like Im picking on someone but that someone has to know how to be respectful when answering people's question, because I ask question with respect and manner, so I demand a respectful answer.
But thanks for at least replying anyway...
Last edited by giantfoot_truck on Sun May 27, 2007 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
I think you sparked up a good topic. It is interesting even if you don't agree with the topic. I love a good debate and its nice to hear other opinions.
I don't think giantfoot_truck was actually thinking about buying or breeding one. Just a curious question.
Can we understand that some people are sensitive to certain topics and there is a difference between aggression and stating our opinion? Not pointing any fingers.
I don't think giantfoot_truck was actually thinking about buying or breeding one. Just a curious question.
Can we understand that some people are sensitive to certain topics and there is a difference between aggression and stating our opinion? Not pointing any fingers.
"Jibby aka Gilbert" Indian Ringneck 13 years "Charlie" Rex Rabbit 1 year
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giantfoot_truck
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This forum is one of the best forum I've ever visited; everyone is very nice and very helpful.
but to the other forum I've been to, like some of the fish forum, I've always got angry and ended up fighting with others, and then I get sick of the forum so I quit; most of them are just mean and love insulting others and having a bad debate... while very few are helpful and nice.
Im just soo happy and grateful I found this forum.
love you all!
but to the other forum I've been to, like some of the fish forum, I've always got angry and ended up fighting with others, and then I get sick of the forum so I quit; most of them are just mean and love insulting others and having a bad debate... while very few are helpful and nice.
Im just soo happy and grateful I found this forum.
love you all!
Aw, don’t worry about that here giantfoot_truck. You can ask any question you like and we will all discuss it like adults. We thrive on welcoming everyone to our community and enjoy a good healthy debate—after all, that’s how you get to really understand parrots.
Don’t feel alone about your curiosity about hybrid Ringnecks—I have even wondered the possibilities about hybridization. I am very fascinated on the subject and you’ll find people disagreeing and agreeing with you.
Why am I fascinated on it? I am currently working on studying the cognition abilities of Ringnecks. With that idea at hand—I am curious as to how well the Alexandrian Ringneck performs compared to the Indian Ringnecks—what is the size difference in their brain? Which species can pick up more commands and words? The list could go on and on. Can Ringnecks use tools? These are just of the few things I am exploring…..
But as other’s said here …there are good points about hybridization and there or bad points to it…it all depends in the motives of the breeder. Money can force people to do evil things and unfortunately, or society is centered around the green stuff..
Good discussion gang
Hope this helps,
Imran Chaudhry
Don’t feel alone about your curiosity about hybrid Ringnecks—I have even wondered the possibilities about hybridization. I am very fascinated on the subject and you’ll find people disagreeing and agreeing with you.
Why am I fascinated on it? I am currently working on studying the cognition abilities of Ringnecks. With that idea at hand—I am curious as to how well the Alexandrian Ringneck performs compared to the Indian Ringnecks—what is the size difference in their brain? Which species can pick up more commands and words? The list could go on and on. Can Ringnecks use tools? These are just of the few things I am exploring…..
But as other’s said here …there are good points about hybridization and there or bad points to it…it all depends in the motives of the breeder. Money can force people to do evil things and unfortunately, or society is centered around the green stuff..
Good discussion gang
Hope this helps,
Imran Chaudhry
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giantfoot_truck
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kyria
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I hear all views on this and understand them all. I however have no opinion on it for myself, if I did take a negative view on it, I would have to also be against most of this world the human race has created.
I wonder how most hybridizing is done, is this forced or a natural mating process, if so and it happens in the wild and can be immitated naturally in captivity then the question is, if it does happen, why is it possible. I look at the human race, we are the same creature but we mix our colours and sub groups.
just a thought, not really an opinion.
I just trust in God, if something is wrong the species will be dealt with anyway. Eg. apparently, some cross breeds of birds cannot reproduce anymore, therefore ending the crossbreeding process.
Humans are inquisitive creatures, we want to learn how far we can push the boundaries, and we learn from the consequence of doing so, even with ourselves. This happens in animals, plants, humanity and the earth.
Check this out, What about the first in Australia of cross breeding a cockatiel with a galah, apparently this was an accident, when the two species were housed together;- check it out
The parents;-
the result;-
the owner has been offered $15,000 for the baby so far.
There use to be a movie of the bird online but the link no longer takes you to the movie, its gone and I cannot find it anywhere.
Further article on the subject and how it came about;-
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/galatiel.php
I wonder how most hybridizing is done, is this forced or a natural mating process, if so and it happens in the wild and can be immitated naturally in captivity then the question is, if it does happen, why is it possible. I look at the human race, we are the same creature but we mix our colours and sub groups.
just a thought, not really an opinion.
I just trust in God, if something is wrong the species will be dealt with anyway. Eg. apparently, some cross breeds of birds cannot reproduce anymore, therefore ending the crossbreeding process.
Humans are inquisitive creatures, we want to learn how far we can push the boundaries, and we learn from the consequence of doing so, even with ourselves. This happens in animals, plants, humanity and the earth.
Check this out, What about the first in Australia of cross breeding a cockatiel with a galah, apparently this was an accident, when the two species were housed together;- check it out
The parents;-
the result;-
the owner has been offered $15,000 for the baby so far.
There use to be a movie of the bird online but the link no longer takes you to the movie, its gone and I cannot find it anywhere.
Further article on the subject and how it came about;-
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/galatiel.php
Angie
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Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
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God Bless
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Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
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God Bless
That must of been such a shock to the girl that saw it sitting in the cage! I wonder if that bird knows its the only one in the world! Poor thing!
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giantfoot_truck
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Like I told you, its all from god will.
see what happen between the cockatiel and cockatoo living in same cage? some hybrid happen by themselves without human help, this show that whether god agreed or not for letting such creature exist in the world.
I dont hate that galatiel, its is just a bird that need care like all other animals, and I dont even look at it as a strange looking bird. I consider all animal the same, both purebred and hybrid. But it does look like something new to me.
But if it happen that I cross bred animal and produce a new look hybrid, Im not going to sell it to anyone like that guy does, even with very high price. Im going to keep it as my beloved pet, and not consider it as item for sale.
see what happen between the cockatiel and cockatoo living in same cage? some hybrid happen by themselves without human help, this show that whether god agreed or not for letting such creature exist in the world.
I dont hate that galatiel, its is just a bird that need care like all other animals, and I dont even look at it as a strange looking bird. I consider all animal the same, both purebred and hybrid. But it does look like something new to me.
But if it happen that I cross bred animal and produce a new look hybrid, Im not going to sell it to anyone like that guy does, even with very high price. Im going to keep it as my beloved pet, and not consider it as item for sale.
The issues of cross-breeding and 'puppy-mills' or 'birdie-mills' are two separate issues. If someone wants to crossbreed then they are just "all about money?" That's a stupid generalization. Unfortunately breeders, however much they like their animals, are about money. And we are the customers. So don't act holier than thou just because YOU are against cross-breeds. I hesitate to even post this because I know Donna is going to ram some huge **** post down my throat. Oh well.
These quotes are from the person who bred the Galatiel:
"...I’ve been offered $15,000 for him, but people have told me he’s worth a lot more because he’s the only one in the world,” she said.
"Nikki said she would consider selling the three birds and anyone interested in making an offer could contact her on 02 6839 2479 or nikkifox@dodo.com.au"
Now can I hear greed?
Let me put it another way. Let's say I stick you in a 4 feet by 4 feet cage along with a gorilla twice your size. The gorilla rapes you then you give birth to a humanoid. I take this man-ape offspring of yours and sell it for $15,000, or to do a Nikki, sell it to the highest possible freakin bidder. Now is this right? You still think this is NATURAL? Sticking creatures in cages and feeding them pellets is anything but natural.
You may justify. "Oh but the Galah and the Cockatiel bred so it must be right". Sure they breed. Sure it is possible. Mass genocide and child pornography is also possible. But just because it can be done doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Stop saying all of these are God's will. How can you people be cavalier enough to assume what a Supreme Being wants to do? Are you people that good? I don't know if you guys even noticed but no one here stated they hated the hybrid offsprings. A couple of us did say we won't be sending Christmas cards to greedy hybrid BREEDERS.
..................
Sixty million years of evolution and the only thing us humans have managed to do is devastate nature, disrupt natural ecosystems, pollute the environment, dump toxic wastes in the ocean, create holes in the ozone, overpopulate the earth, obliterate the rainforest, and caused the extinction of thousands of animal species. In the near future, if it hasn't already started, nature is going to bite us back and it's going to be nasty. Uh-oh.. the polar caps are melting. Head to higher ground. Climactic changes, floods, tsunamis ... Not to worry.. this is all God's will anyway right?
Some time ago, I came across an avian article that discussed the supposedly natural occuring hybridization of the Agapornis Personata and Agapornis Fischeri lovebirds. As it turned out, the hybridization was anything but natural. Hundreds of Fischeri-Personata hybrids were found to have been released by aviculturists and these hybrids have been competing for nesting holes with the indigent pure species.
So instead of taking measures towards conserving whatever is left in nature, us humans continue to take huge steps backwards because of mistakes bourne out of either stupidity or avarice.
Just like most of you. I am not against hybridization. There is nothing wrong with hybridization. Rice and wheat had been hybridized so they can produce twice more crops and cultivated three times a year. Chicken has been hybridized to produce breeds that has more meat and lay more eggs. For the right reasons, hybridization is a good thing.
PS.
All dogs are of the same genus, species, and subspecies. (Canis lupus familiaris). And regardless of race, color or creed, all humans are Homo Sapiens.. meaning all of us are the same genus and species. So breeding a Retriever to a Dalmatian and mating a 6'5" 350-pound Samoan man to a 4'10 90-pound Australian Aborigine is really not the same as breeding a Psittacula Krameri to a Psittacula Eupatria, two animals of different species.
"...I’ve been offered $15,000 for him, but people have told me he’s worth a lot more because he’s the only one in the world,” she said.
"Nikki said she would consider selling the three birds and anyone interested in making an offer could contact her on 02 6839 2479 or nikkifox@dodo.com.au"
Now can I hear greed?
Let me put it another way. Let's say I stick you in a 4 feet by 4 feet cage along with a gorilla twice your size. The gorilla rapes you then you give birth to a humanoid. I take this man-ape offspring of yours and sell it for $15,000, or to do a Nikki, sell it to the highest possible freakin bidder. Now is this right? You still think this is NATURAL? Sticking creatures in cages and feeding them pellets is anything but natural.
You may justify. "Oh but the Galah and the Cockatiel bred so it must be right". Sure they breed. Sure it is possible. Mass genocide and child pornography is also possible. But just because it can be done doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Stop saying all of these are God's will. How can you people be cavalier enough to assume what a Supreme Being wants to do? Are you people that good? I don't know if you guys even noticed but no one here stated they hated the hybrid offsprings. A couple of us did say we won't be sending Christmas cards to greedy hybrid BREEDERS.
..................
Sixty million years of evolution and the only thing us humans have managed to do is devastate nature, disrupt natural ecosystems, pollute the environment, dump toxic wastes in the ocean, create holes in the ozone, overpopulate the earth, obliterate the rainforest, and caused the extinction of thousands of animal species. In the near future, if it hasn't already started, nature is going to bite us back and it's going to be nasty. Uh-oh.. the polar caps are melting. Head to higher ground. Climactic changes, floods, tsunamis ... Not to worry.. this is all God's will anyway right?
Some time ago, I came across an avian article that discussed the supposedly natural occuring hybridization of the Agapornis Personata and Agapornis Fischeri lovebirds. As it turned out, the hybridization was anything but natural. Hundreds of Fischeri-Personata hybrids were found to have been released by aviculturists and these hybrids have been competing for nesting holes with the indigent pure species.
So instead of taking measures towards conserving whatever is left in nature, us humans continue to take huge steps backwards because of mistakes bourne out of either stupidity or avarice.
Just like most of you. I am not against hybridization. There is nothing wrong with hybridization. Rice and wheat had been hybridized so they can produce twice more crops and cultivated three times a year. Chicken has been hybridized to produce breeds that has more meat and lay more eggs. For the right reasons, hybridization is a good thing.
PS.
All dogs are of the same genus, species, and subspecies. (Canis lupus familiaris). And regardless of race, color or creed, all humans are Homo Sapiens.. meaning all of us are the same genus and species. So breeding a Retriever to a Dalmatian and mating a 6'5" 350-pound Samoan man to a 4'10 90-pound Australian Aborigine is really not the same as breeding a Psittacula Krameri to a Psittacula Eupatria, two animals of different species.
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giantfoot_truck
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Well depois did you ever see and witness gorilla rapes human and actually gave birth to human-ape creature, I ask you now.
Did you ever see that happen?? did you even read somewhere that happen??? No! right?? so no way such stupidity could happen, it doesn't even make sense. And it will not happen because its not natural, human and gorilla cannot be kept together in cage and have sex with each other .
But this galah and cockatiel has possibility to mate and actually produce offspring, because they are both bird and live in the cage when raised by human.
Did you ever see someone kept human in cage?
Yes all these disaster that you mention will happen when its close to judgement day, what? you think you can prevent it? oh yeah go on if you feel like you are the hero of the world, and we will see what will happen, we will watch you nicely while you prevent all these disaster.
Did you ever see that happen?? did you even read somewhere that happen??? No! right?? so no way such stupidity could happen, it doesn't even make sense. And it will not happen because its not natural, human and gorilla cannot be kept together in cage and have sex with each other
.
But this galah and cockatiel has possibility to mate and actually produce offspring, because they are both bird and live in the cage when raised by human.
Did you ever see someone kept human in cage?
Yes all these disaster that you mention will happen when its close to judgement day, what? you think you can prevent it? oh yeah go on if you feel like you are the hero of the world, and we will see what will happen, we will watch you nicely while you prevent all these disaster.
depois do prazer wrote:
Let me put it another way. Let's say I stick you in a 4 feet by 4 feet cage along with a gorilla twice your size. The gorilla rapes you then you give birth to a humanoid. I take this man-ape offspring of yours and sell it for $15,000, or to do a Nikki, sell it to the highest possible freakin bidder. Now is this right?
You still think this is NATURAL? Sticking creatures in cages and feeding them pellets is anything but natural.
You are speaking about all captive animals now. What does that have to do with crossbreeding IRN's? And that gorilla analogy isn't even worthy of a response. There's nothing wrong with the OP wanting to know about cross-breeding IRN's. If I wanted to hear someone preach about morality and values I would go to church. As it stands, the OP simply wanted to know about cross-breeding IRN's...Why do we have to suffer through your moral holy-war because of it?
Good answer faust1200
and as per for depois do prazer wrote
do you really think that a cockuteil and a galah represents a human and a gorilla
why???
they are still birds
not that a bird has been caged togather with a dog or a cat and forced to mate
just like if two different races of human fall in love and have babies
for examlpe
a black man and a white women OR a christian and a hindu
or an asian and a european they all look different but doesnt mean that they are different beings altogather
as long as they are still human and human and not human and animal
just like the cockuteil and galah are still birds and not bird and other type of animal
and as per the question of crossbreeding for money
there are alot of different types of people in the world
some are genuine and just curious about the aspect of crossbreeding
and some are money greedy like the owner of the galah teil
who wants to sell the accidently breeded offspring
but that does not make everysingle person who is curious about hybrids and crossbreeding a greedy one
does it ??
and as per for depois do prazer wrote
Let me put it another way. Let's say I stick you in a 4 feet by 4 feet cage along with a gorilla twice your size. The gorilla rapes you then you give birth to a humanoid. I take this man-ape offspring of yours and sell it for $15,000, or to do a Nikki, sell it to the highest possible freakin bidder. Now is this right?
do you really think that a cockuteil and a galah represents a human and a gorilla
why???
they are still birds
not that a bird has been caged togather with a dog or a cat and forced to mate
just like if two different races of human fall in love and have babies
for examlpe
a black man and a white women OR a christian and a hindu
or an asian and a european they all look different but doesnt mean that they are different beings altogather
as long as they are still human and human and not human and animal
just like the cockuteil and galah are still birds and not bird and other type of animal
and as per the question of crossbreeding for money
there are alot of different types of people in the world
some are genuine and just curious about the aspect of crossbreeding
and some are money greedy like the owner of the galah teil
who wants to sell the accidently breeded offspring
but that does not make everysingle person who is curious about hybrids and crossbreeding a greedy one
does it ??
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kyria
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Wooohh ! lol .. Evolutionists had us starting as Apes anyway so what's the problem, it would just be taking a step back to what is claimed to be our beginning.
I think bringing the analogy of rape into it is a bad idea. This means we have to assume caging our female birds with their male counterparts would mean we are housing them simply to be raped by them. I cannot rest with that thought. Mating in wild creatures is a natural process, just because humans have the consciousness of thought and emotions on this score doesn't mean we have to assume that other species feel the same.
On the worth of something we end up with that is unusual and that could make us enough money for that mortgage payment or summer holiday, this whole world is sadly run on the power of the dollar, and nobody is past the thought of what they can get! rather than what they can give, its our strength and morality that helps us stay in some form of control.
For me I get my strength from God, after all, his words are what humanities guides and laws a based upon, it seems the more we break away from it, the more we push the boundaries of it, the worse this world becomes when it comes to right and wrong. But you have to admit we are learning so much, and on so many scores we are putting that knowledge to amazing use for this world and its millions of inhabitants. At the same time we make huge mistakes.
I think bringing the analogy of rape into it is a bad idea. This means we have to assume caging our female birds with their male counterparts would mean we are housing them simply to be raped by them. I cannot rest with that thought. Mating in wild creatures is a natural process, just because humans have the consciousness of thought and emotions on this score doesn't mean we have to assume that other species feel the same.
On the worth of something we end up with that is unusual and that could make us enough money for that mortgage payment or summer holiday, this whole world is sadly run on the power of the dollar, and nobody is past the thought of what they can get! rather than what they can give, its our strength and morality that helps us stay in some form of control.
For me I get my strength from God, after all, his words are what humanities guides and laws a based upon, it seems the more we break away from it, the more we push the boundaries of it, the worse this world becomes when it comes to right and wrong. But you have to admit we are learning so much, and on so many scores we are putting that knowledge to amazing use for this world and its millions of inhabitants. At the same time we make huge mistakes.
Angie
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Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
As far as i see there are two ways of looking at the begining of the world
if you go to see some people[of which i am one of ] beleive that ADAM AND EVE were the starting of humans
And some people believe the scientific evolution where the human started as apes
i personally think that god created anmals as animals and human as human
so its down to everyones belief
BUT LETS NOT GO DOWN THE HOLY-WAR LANE HERE
THE SIMPLE THING IS THAT
THIS IS THE BIG BAD WORLD
AND AS THE GOOD HAPPENS THE BAD ALSO TAKES PLACE
ALL WE SHOULD DO IS MAKE SURE WE DO OUR SAHRE OF GOOD DEEDS AS GOOD HUMAN BEING
if you go to see some people[of which i am one of ] beleive that ADAM AND EVE were the starting of humans
And some people believe the scientific evolution where the human started as apes
i personally think that god created anmals as animals and human as human
so its down to everyones belief
BUT LETS NOT GO DOWN THE HOLY-WAR LANE HERE
THE SIMPLE THING IS THAT
THIS IS THE BIG BAD WORLD
AND AS THE GOOD HAPPENS THE BAD ALSO TAKES PLACE
ALL WE SHOULD DO IS MAKE SURE WE DO OUR SAHRE OF GOOD DEEDS AS GOOD HUMAN BEING
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kyria
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I never see a good discussion as argument or war, but just good discussion. When people refrain from comment for fear of causing an argument is when we begin to stop sharing points of view and cease learning, God help us then.
Angie
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
That is true my good friend
we should all be able to share our own opinions
AND SO WE SHALL
BUT THERE IS ONE THING
ARENT WE ALL HAVING FUN IN THIS DEBATE
I KNOW I AM
FOR SOME REASON THIS THREAD HAS BECOME SO SPICIER
Every morning just before going to work i check the forum
and every evening after coming back from work i check the forum out
its just so good to have so many p[eople to talk to from so many different corners of the world
although i have noticed there are much more people from australia in this place
we should all be able to share our own opinions
AND SO WE SHALL
BUT THERE IS ONE THING
ARENT WE ALL HAVING FUN IN THIS DEBATE
I KNOW I AM
FOR SOME REASON THIS THREAD HAS BECOME SO SPICIER
Every morning just before going to work i check the forum
and every evening after coming back from work i check the forum out
its just so good to have so many p[eople to talk to from so many different corners of the world
although i have noticed there are much more people from australia in this place
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giantfoot_truck
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yes kyria but if you say you are comparing gorilla to a human, you are like comparing a camel bird with a chicken. Just think how FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR away the difference between them is.
Even if scientific studies indicate that gorilla and human are from same ancestor, it doesn't mean they can mate with each other and produce a hybrid human-ape, OMG what more can I say, even prisoners wouldn't give birth if raped by gorilla..duh!
Even if scientific studies indicate that gorilla and human are from same ancestor, it doesn't mean they can mate with each other and produce a hybrid human-ape, OMG what more can I say, even prisoners wouldn't give birth if raped by gorilla..duh!
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giantfoot_truck
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- Location: Jakarta, Jeddah
Camel bird I mean by ostrich, if some of you dont know.
Again Im not against hybridization, Im always interested in hybrid and would love to know what will happen if one type of living things bred with another, but Im not like these people who bred hybrid for money, my purpose for hybrid is to know what kind of offspring will be produced, what kind of new life is waiting to live in this world.
Again Im not against hybridization, Im always interested in hybrid and would love to know what will happen if one type of living things bred with another, but Im not like these people who bred hybrid for money, my purpose for hybrid is to know what kind of offspring will be produced, what kind of new life is waiting to live in this world.
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giantfoot_truck
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faust1200 wrote:The issues of cross-breeding and 'puppy-mills' or 'birdie-mills' are two separate issues. If someone wants to crossbreed then they are just "all about money?" That's a stupid generalization. Unfortunately breeders, however much they like their animals, are about money. And we are the customers. So don't act holier than thou just because YOU are against cross-breeds. I hesitate to even post this because I know Donna is going to ram some huge **** post down my throat. Oh well.
I don't think I rammed any post down your throat but if your choking maybe you better take your foot out of your mouth.
Sorry you feel threatened by my opinions, I guess I just see things in a better light then you. I'm no customer of hybrids or cross breeds. If that makes me holier then thou (meaning you) OH Well!!
Donna
In Loving Memory
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
of one special husband and one special bird.
I miss you both
Donna wrote:faust1200 wrote:The issues of cross-breeding and 'puppy-mills' or 'birdie-mills' are two separate issues. If someone wants to crossbreed then they are just "all about money?" That's a stupid generalization. Unfortunately breeders, however much they like their animals, are about money. And we are the customers. So don't act holier than thou just because YOU are against cross-breeds. I hesitate to even post this because I know Donna is going to ram some huge **** post down my throat. Oh well.
I don't think I rammed any post down your throat but if your choking maybe you better take your foot out of your mouth.
Donna
Thanks for proving my point.
faust1200 wrote:You are speaking about all captive animals now. What does that have to do with crossbreeding IRN's? And that gorilla analogy isn't even worthy of a response. There's nothing wrong with the OP wanting to know about cross-breeding IRN's. If I wanted to hear someone preach about morality and values I would go to church. As it stands, the OP simply wanted to know about cross-breeding IRN's...Why do we have to suffer through your moral holy-war because of it?
You don't have to read my post any more than I have to read yours. If you are suffering reading my post, then perhaps you need to step back and learn the proper way of listening what others have to say and put everything into proper perspective and understanding the fact that other people have opinions too just like yourself.
IMRAN asked for opinions and opinion is what you will get from me. I'm not trying to be a hero like giantfoot put it. I was just saying what I think just like everyone else did. I am a realist besides being a naturalist. The opinion of one person is nothing but a fart in a tornado.
giantfoot asked if crossbreeding IRNs is possible. That has already been answered.
giantfoot_truck wrote:Well depois did you ever see and witness gorilla rapes human and actually gave birth to human-ape creature, I ask you now.
Did you ever see that happen?? did you even read somewhere that happen??? No! right?? so no way such stupidity could happen, it doesn't even make sense. And it will not happen because its not natural, human and gorilla cannot be kept together in cage and have sex with each other
So if it is possible you will support it? Have you heard of Bestiality? Humans have sex with animals for pleasure or money derived from pornographic materials they sell. The possibility of producing the offspring doesn't justify the act.
The Galah and the Tiel are both birds. Humans and Gorillas are both Primates. Where do you draw the line?
Did you ever see someone kept human in cage?
I guess you have never heard about the African slave trade.
Yes all these disaster that you mention will happen when its close to judgement day, what? you think you can prevent it? oh yeah go on if you feel like you are the hero of the world, and we will see what will happen, we will watch you nicely while you prevent all these disaster.
I was voicing my opinion just like you were. Not trying to be a hero here. I've been through that fighting in the first Persian Gulf war.
giantfoot_truck wrote:Okay sorry not you but to anyone who compare gorilla to human, they are not the same, even if you think they are, they can never ever produce offspring together.
So you are now a genetics expert also? How sure are you they will not produce any offspring? Have you experimented it already? You know I won't because I do not support senseless hybridization.
Aren't you the same person who said breeding a Blue IRN to a White IRN will produce white-headed Blue Pallids?
Please don't take this personally.
I love colorful debates. And I'm not the type of person who will shy away from such.
Last edited by Jay on Thu May 31, 2007 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
kyria wrote:Wooohh ! lol .. Evolutionists had us starting as Apes anyway so what's the problem, it would just be taking a step back to what is claimed to be our beginning.
Evolutionists takes us as far back as the fish. Hence the Darwin symbol is a fish with feet.
I brought up the Gorilla analogy only to drive a point. We don't know in fact what happened in the Galatiel cage. And rape does in fact produce offsprings as well.
Some people support the idea of cross breeding inter-species. But when another inter-species possibility is invoked (humans vs gorilla), everyone jumps up and scream "FOUL"! What gives? Regrettably, humans have been having sex with animals believe it or not. For what reason? What else.... pleasure and money.
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kyria
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Well that's fine if you want to stick to that analogy.
I personally don't like an analogy that includes, rape and beastiality, when there is no sound reason to use it, we don't know that is how these creatures feel about it or see it, how we view it is exactly that, a human view.
Besides I see Apes and Gorilla's as - primates - anthrapoids
and humans as homosapiens. Massive mind and body differences.
I know dictionary definitions place us into the Ape Primate category, but I has at a guess that was because of Darwin. Back then they had no idea we were a totally seperate species created for a purpose, sure we have changed over the years and we are still changing, this includes learning.
Back to the birds, now If the cockatiel were to be placed with a goose I might raise my eyebrows and my voice. They are both birds, but massively different in features and makeup (as in the human gorilla analogy)
I personally don't like an analogy that includes, rape and beastiality, when there is no sound reason to use it, we don't know that is how these creatures feel about it or see it, how we view it is exactly that, a human view.
Besides I see Apes and Gorilla's as - primates - anthrapoids
and humans as homosapiens. Massive mind and body differences.
I know dictionary definitions place us into the Ape Primate category, but I has at a guess that was because of Darwin. Back then they had no idea we were a totally seperate species created for a purpose, sure we have changed over the years and we are still changing, this includes learning.
Back to the birds, now If the cockatiel were to be placed with a goose I might raise my eyebrows and my voice. They are both birds, but massively different in features and makeup (as in the human gorilla analogy)
Angie
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
kyria wrote:Well that's fine if you want to stick to that analogy.
I personally don't like an analogy that includes, rape and beastiality, when there is no sound reason to use it, we don't know that is how these creatures feel about it or see it, how we view it is exactly that, a human view.
Besides I see Apes and Gorilla's as - primates - anthrapoids
and humans as homosapiens. Massive mind and body differences.
I know dictionary definitions place us into the Ape Primate category, but I has at a guess that was because of Darwin. Back then they had no idea we were a totally seperate species created for a purpose, sure we have changed over the years and we are still changing, this includes learning.
Back to the birds, now If the cockatiel were to be placed with a goose I might raise my eyebrows and my voice. They are both birds, but massively different in features and makeup (as in the human gorilla analogy)
Taxonomical classification is based on scientific and genetic data available, not just whatever visual characteristics the specimen possess. So although visually two specimens look massively different to you, their genome may not be that dissimilar.
The point I have been driving at is where does one draw the line as to when it is or it is not okay to be cross breeding for the sake of feather color? Feather coloration is not the only gene that is manipulated in cross breeding. And not all manipulated characteristics would be beneficial to the progeny.
I stand by my opinion that hybridization for feather color is not right.
kyria wrote:I know dictionary definitions place us into the Ape Primate category, but I has at a guess that was because of Darwin. Back then they had no idea we were a totally seperate species
The system purported by Carolus Linnaeus was just an original basis which has been subjected to changes in taxonomical classications brought about by the advances in DNA analysis and nanotechnology.
Evidently then, other primates have the closest possible resemblance to the human genome of all currently existing living creature. So it's really not just about Darwin and his "Origin of the Species" article.
While I am a Christian myself and believe that the Universe was created by God, I do not fully accept the literal connotation that evangelists write in their gospels. I believe there is a link between the scientific and religious definitions of human evolution.
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kyria
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"evangelists write in their gospels" - ?? .. that is a very general statement.
I also love science and religion.
But do note they have also found that we are closely linked to a fly with their tests .. so ?
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/25/stc.00.html
Does this mean we are a part of the fruit fly category also ? Or that the fruit fly is a part of our category ?
Science is young and always finding fault in it's testings and correcting itself, this is learning and we are just at the beginning of it. We are not even close to the end, but we can say we are at the end of the beginning.
I don't suppose to have more than a basic understanding of creation, I am amazed by the findings and break throughs in research.
So at this point I rest.
All I do know is that we are totally set apart from other creatures, and have great purpose (as do other creatures) but ours is greater, in that we have been given intelligence, now let darwin or science explain consciousness (emotion, thought, our personality) and the incredible design that exists in all things, I know they don't seriously think it blew into being, or they would not be searching so hard.
I dare say you know far more about genetics than I and I respect that
sorry gone off on a tangent.
Anywho .. it's nice discussing
I also love science and religion.
But do note they have also found that we are closely linked to a fly with their tests .. so ?
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/25/stc.00.html
Does this mean we are a part of the fruit fly category also ? Or that the fruit fly is a part of our category ?
Science is young and always finding fault in it's testings and correcting itself, this is learning and we are just at the beginning of it. We are not even close to the end, but we can say we are at the end of the beginning.
I don't suppose to have more than a basic understanding of creation, I am amazed by the findings and break throughs in research.
So at this point I rest.
All I do know is that we are totally set apart from other creatures, and have great purpose (as do other creatures) but ours is greater, in that we have been given intelligence, now let darwin or science explain consciousness (emotion, thought, our personality) and the incredible design that exists in all things, I know they don't seriously think it blew into being, or they would not be searching so hard.
I dare say you know far more about genetics than I and I respect that
sorry gone off on a tangent.
Anywho .. it's nice discussing
Last edited by kyria on Thu May 31, 2007 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Angie
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless