IndianRingNeck.com

Hi everyone,

Just posting to see if anyone breeds Alexandrines to Ringnecks, or if you know anyone who does? I just put together an Alexandrine male with a blue mutation female ringneck yesterday and he is already feeding and courting her! The reason I decided to pair them was I can't locate a female Alexandrine and the female was in a cage by herself so I said what the heck. Boy, I didn't expect this quick of a response from them! I really am kind of excited to see what I get now (LOL)! ANY FEEDBACK GREATLY APPRECIATED.

You are treading on thin ice my friend! Majority of the members here (me included) doesn't think it is right to cross-breed the IRN with an Alexandrine.

For as long as humans have kept animals and raised crops, hybridizing of species has been used as a tool to improve the species' genetics to man's advantage. Rice, wheat, and other agricultural produce had been hybridized to yield better quality and quantity to feed a growing population. Breeds of dogs, horses and other livestock had been manipulated to assist in hunting, farming, and meat production. I believe most of us will agree that this is ethical and agreeable.

But if cross-breeding is done only for the sake of aesthetics and monetary gain, then it is an entirely different issue. Read on the following thread

http://www.indianringneck.com/board/vie ... ight=#8169

Please don't do it! The offspring will be picked on by all the other birds!! Apart from that, its just not right. Sorry, not trying to be mean, but its just not.

I think you should go to this guys web site and get educated on the matter! This is not something new I am doing. The offspring will not be picked on, sorry. I have been breeding birds of all kinds of species for almost 10 years now. They have been breeding Alexandrines to Ringnecks for years now in Europe.

www.irnmutations.com

Breeding Indian Ringnecks and Alexandrines has been done before. Most of the time, breeding between species is done as a means to produce mutations. For some reason, many breeders have not been successful towards producing pure Alexandrines with mutations.

Some people have mixed feelings on this issue. Some agree that breeding the two produces mutations for Alexandrines quick, while others believe that cross breeding is totally unethical. Why? Because it creates a hybrid that does not have “pure” Ringneck or Alexandrine blood.

Though I will not express my feelings for practicing such breeding, I strongly recommend you ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish by cross breeding and what you might gain.

Hope this helps and best wishes,

Imran Chaudhry

Now to throw my 2 cents in.
While i am against hybrids, there are many many mutations out there that we regard as pure that are in fact hybrids.
Most mutations in the Rainbow, Red Collared, Musk, Little, Purple Crown Lorikeets have been passed on from the Scaey Breasted Lorikeet.
A lot of the mutation we see in Eye Ring Lovebirds came from either Nyasa, or Mask Lovebirds. A lot of Fischer mutations are hybrids.
Most Rosella mutation have come about from hybridising.

Trying to achieve mutations in Alexandrines through transmutation with Indian Ringnecks is a very long and tiring process. You won't be able to sell the babies until they are pure (about 3-4th generation - which means 10+ years to achieve)
If you just want your birds to breed, go and buy them partners of their own species. If you are trying to breed mutations in Alexandrines, you will need to build a lot more cages and have a hell of a lot of patience.

Sorry, i get a bit carried away. I just think PERSONALLY that it shouldn't be done. In their natural habitats you wouldn't get these birds to mate, its only that they are put together in an unnatural environment and then add the birds natural hormones .....you get the picture.

Certainly not trying to offend anyone here but i have strong opinions!!!

I understand a bit where you guys who oppose it are coming from, but you act like am putting a Conure with a Macaw! The Alexandrine and Ringneck are very closely related to each other (that has been proven). And if you think about it, a lot of the first mutations have come from breeding related birds (mother to son and father to daughter) I find that appauling! I didn't put them together just to get babies, I am really interested in the concept (NOT THE MONEY)! I have the time, cage space and acreage. I have been breeding all kinds of species from Macaws to Cockatiels for almost 10 years now and I plan to a lot longer.

Sorry if I have offended any one!

Can i just ask why you are wanting to breed Alexandrine mutations?

Yes, it is sad that some people resort to in breeding and line breeding to keep new mutations. What people should be doing is breeding them back to the Wildtype to firstly, figure out how the gene inherits and secondly, to build up a healthy line.

What you do is up to you, but do you have a plan in place? Do you know how you are going to breed the best birds possible?
Now, i said it will take roughly 10+ years, but in Australia, people have been working on the Blue Alexandrine and after 40 years of careful and selective breeding, they are still not happy with the birds. It is a very long process and all the first, second, third, and quite possibly even more generations that are not used for breeding, will most likely never be able to be sold.

lokeaviaries wrote:And if you think about it, a lot of the first mutations have come from breeding related birds (mother to son and father to daughter) I find that appauling!

You can't really apply the norms of human morality on avian breeding It's not incest. It's called line-breeding and is an acceptable practice among experienced breeders. And yes, you're not encouraging IRN promiscuity by swapping mates every breeding season. It's not swinging!

By the way, it's good if you find that appalling since depending on your intended breeding program, you probably will be breeding related birds.

Sorry if I have offended any one!

You came here asking for opinions, it was given to you.

Jeremy wrote: It is a very long process and all the first, second, third, and quite possibly even more generations that are not used for breeding, will most likely never be able to be sold.

So what are you going to do when you are overwhelmed with F1's and F2's, etc? Cull the birds or continue caring and feeding them for 30+ years? Kinda tempting to sell them to other people as pets/breeders and thus proliferating the spread of unpure birds.

And what if there are escapes? Will you go out of your way to recover them granted you are already swamped with the intermediate generations of transmutants? Or will you just hope they don't end up in someone else's backyard who could start breeding them.

Too many things to consider buddy. Hope you make the right decision.

I think the biggest reason hybrids are so rejected is because they arent always labeled as hybrids. Some idiot (not reffering to anyone) sells a bunch of hybrids as normal birds either cos he wants rid of them or whatever and the person not realising they are hybrids breeds them to normals and then it spreads when he sells his babies, and people thinking they have pure birds have hybrids. Or like the case pointed by bonjoram if they escape.

I personally would love a hybrid macaw simply because I want the colour that is otherwise unavailable in other macaws. But as long as I buy it knowing that it's a hybrid and If I breed it and sell any babies as hybrids then as long as there is physically no disability with the bird I dont see whats wrong with that.

I think it's important to have both pure AND hybrid birds. the more mutations the more chance that species survives. Sorry I'm going to ramble a bit now.

Like the evolutionary theory that you have white moths and brown moths. brown moths blend into the forest and white ones dont. White ones get eaten and so they eventually die out and brown moths continue to live and evolve. Say there is a disease that kills pure rignecks that doesnt work on hybrids or the vice verca, isnt it better to have both just in case?

I read the comments on the link posted by loke and agree that this already gone way beyond what birds should "naturally" be. And most of these birds would never suvive in the wild no matter what genetics or colour they have.

I'm open to constructive comments, any bashing will be ignored.

Without hybrids, we wouldn't have the amount of mutations available today, however, they still would have naturally occured over time.

I would rather breed pure mutations because it is much more exciting and surprising. I have already bred several rare and possibly new mutations from scratch and it is much more enjoyable and worthwhile then it would be to hybridise to get them.

Neo, why would you prefer a hybrid Macaw over a pure? The pures have amazing colours.
Although, mutations in the wild have a decreased chance of survival, they still occur quite frequently and some do survive. Fallow Rainbow Lorikeets are a prime example, a flock of them were captured in the wild and used in captivity for breeding purposes.

But lets be real here, there will never be a disease that effects only pure birds

I guess where I was going with the whole disease thing was most people think hybirds end up deformed, or unable to reproduce properly or become genetically weaker overall than the other birds, I was proposing that perhaps the opposite is true. but your right I havent researched this topic much hence the debate.

I just love the colours on the camalot macaw. Reminds me of a sunny. Although I really like the greenwings also.

I'd rather go out and buy one than trying to breed one myself as I have given up the idea of being a breeder because I have a hard time selling my birds as I become too attached to them really easy.

Hello,

Just for the "heck of it" might be the less valuable reason for creating hybrids. I kind of like Jeremy's thoughts about what plan or genetics experiment you are working on and if there is none then why are you undertaking the hybridizations?
The genetics and creation of hybrids is well known and it is relatively easy to accomplish. Ethical and moral aspects are what is left to discuss and acknowledge.
I hadn't thought of the question that was raised: What happens to the individuals that don't have the phenotype you are looking for?

Here are two interesting web sites:

http://www.bird-hybrids.com

http://www.uwyo.edu/dbmcd/molmark/lect2a.html

This thread is interesting and hopefully will continue, it could be helpful.

Everyday, hundreds of flora and fauna become extinct because of man's abuse of nature. Former living things we will never see again, ever.

And now you want to tinker around more with nature's genetics because it might look good?

I am so sorry for all of this work ya'll went through. And I have NO idea how I missed this post but when comparing the IP addresses this is Tin.

The member who was given a short vacation. I banned his nick because it was temporary. I feel everyone has a right to know those members are one in the same, the author of this thread and Tin.

Welcome back.

Who is Tin?

i thought so too.cheeky bugger.

Im a bit confused, first you say

The reason I decided to pair them was I can't locate a female Alexandrine and the female was in a cage by herself so I said what the heck

then you say,

I didn't put them together just to get babies, I am really interested in the concept (NOT THE MONEY)! I have the time, cage space and acreage. I have been breeding all kinds of species from Macaws to Cockatiels for almost 10 years now and I plan to a lot longer

If you have the time, then why didnt you spend time to locate a ringneck mate?
Where I live there is no ringnecks in my area. But I searched for what I wanted and I found a lovely female ringneck.
As I have always been taught, if your going to do something, then do it right and not halfway.

Hi I would just like to post a piece of an article which relates to this topic, if you would like to read the complete article it can be found here

http://www.indianringneck.com/alexandrine/

So here is the portion that I have copied and pasted

Alexandrines Mutations
"Alexandrines do not come in real mutations. The current ones available in the market blue, yellow, lutino, and clear tails have been hybrid with Indian Ringnecks. They are the result of many generations of careful breeding to produce the current birds on the market. These created mutations remain a
controversial subject as many breeders believe doing so taints the bloodline of the true Alexandrine. Others argue that many popular aviary birds such canaries, doves, and finches have undergone some type of hybridization. Many will take the argument a step further and insist it's no big deal--especially because all our dogs are the result hybridization.

Whatever the outcome, or whichever side you stand, one thing is apparent, they are becoming more popular in the market and will continue to be sold--especially because the demand is increasing. With that being said, perhaps one day aviary breeders will be able to purchase Alexandrines as readily as Indian Ringnecks."

Thanks
Lushen

Here is a piece of another article found on the subject

"Alexandrine Parakeets seem to be mainly sold for their vibrant colors and there are many mutations available. These derived mutations have been a source of controversy as they were achieved through hybrid breeding with the Indian Ringneck. Many bird enthusiasts worry the bloodline of a true Alexandrine Parakeet will be difficult to find, while others believe that the art of hybridization is totally ethical as humans have succeeded to practice this on dogs, cats, and horses for hundreds of years. Because of hybridization between the two species, there are now lutino, blues, cinnamons, lacewings, and pieds showcased in the market today.

It is important to note these mutations have taken 25 or more years to establish and many serious breeders have detailed records to ensure their mutations have very little Indian Ringneck blood. The breeding has been so successful that the hybrid parrot looks like a true Alexandrine. First generation hybrids often look like larger Indian Ringnecks with maroon patches on their wings."

The full article can be found at the website below

http://www.parrotfeather.com/asiatics/alexandrine/

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen1600 wrote:Alexandrines Mutations
"Alexandrines do not come in real mutations.

I would really like to ask the author how he would explain the recessive grey mutation not found in IRN, and the recessive edged mutations. The latter is more common in Alexandrine than in IRN, which doesn't make sense with IRN being more prolific breeders.

I'm not denying that there isn't hybridization taking place, but for the authors to state that there are no true mutations isn't accurate.

Hi guys don't shoot the messenger, just making you guys aware of the articles online

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen, my comments were hopefully clearly directed at the author, and not the messenger. Thanks for linking us. Hopefully somebody picks up on this and thinks twice about hybridisation.

Hi All,
A very interesting thread. But i would like to go with pure breeding. I know mutations look good and maybe sell fast. But i prefer the original green color very much.
The hybrid of horse and donkey is a mule ( a useful animal). But he will always be a mule. He can never become a horse and neither can he become a donkey.

Subodh

subodhhire wrote:The hybrid of horse and donkey is a mule ( a useful animal). But he will always be a mule. He can never become a horse and neither can he become a donkey.

Subodh

A good point, Subodh, but a mule can not breed either. So it will never be a threat to the purity of either horses or donkeys. IRN and alexandrine hybrids on the other hand, are not sterile and could become a very big problem.

One will never go wrong with breeding pure green birds. The rarest lovebirds in SA are the pure green ones.

Subodh -

Was it by chance that those I found most attractive turned out to be the original wild type?


-MissK

I know someone who has an IRN/Alexandrine cross. I think it was a rescue. He says he won't let her nest because he is worried the eggs will be too big for her to lay. She is not much bigger than an IRN and her mate is an Alex.

Ellie.

Hi Johan,
It was just an example. Actually its a proverb in our local language HINDI in India.

Hi Miss K,

Anything original has a appeal of its own. so when you liked them naturally you liked the originals and not hybrids.

Subodh

Well not ringnecks, but I breed gouldian finchs and have tried the yellow mutations and they were no where near as strong as pure birds and frankly the normal ones to me are far more beautiful. So now I have mainly normals but a seperate flock of white breasted gouldians which are very strong in vigor. As for other birds it depends on the breed as to whether people prefer normals or mutations.

Indian ringneck a and alexandrines are actually part of the same species but different sub-species. And I believe it is perfectly fine to x-breed these species as it is for a human pet and will not be released into the wild. If these birds feel attracted to each other then I believe it is in our best interest as the owners to make sure that they will stay together.

Lushen, Not All breeds of dogs are the result of hybridisation, as a Samoyed breeder/exhibitor/,!judge, I assure you the Samoyed and Siberian Husky were Never the result of hybridisation. As for Line breeding, we Always out crossed every third generation to keep the line healthy. In the UK at the moment there are unscrupulous people deliberately crossing chihuahua's and poodles with other breeds and demanding prices which are higher than a pedigree, they are not kc registered, and are in fact, mongrels, who knows what genetic or familiaral disorders they are propagating?,