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genetics

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mubashir
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genetics

Post by mubashir » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:08 am

hi
can someone tell me what happens when u pair blue male with green alexendrian female

Jade
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Post by Jade » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:09 pm

You would end up with an abomination. I hope you're not serious. Sorry for being bitchy but i think that its like trying to breed cats with dogs - you just don't do it.

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Post by Jeremy » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:40 pm

You will Green/Blue Ringneck x Alexandrine Hybrids. This is how people breed the Blue 'Alexandrine' and sell them for a fortune :roll: People will do anything for money, including ruining the whole gene pool of two beautiful birds :x

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Post by Jade » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:27 pm

Sorry if i upset anyone with my comment. I just don't think its something that should be done and I do feel quite strongly about it!! Fair enough trying to breed a rare colour but do it properly and not by mixing different bird types to 'cheat'.

mubashir
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Post by mubashir » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:06 am

I wonder how did it offends you. i just asked a question. anyway how do you transfer colour to alexandarian? colours are not in nature less offcourse basic.ethics apart, i would just like to know the basic technique and thats all. please spare me of your humour and knowledge

Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:41 am

Hybridising birds is a really controversial topic. In the state i live in, it is illegal to knowingly breed hybrids and you can cop fines of up to $200 000 and lose all your birds.
No need to get rude, we are just trying to deter you from doing such a stupid thing and possibly lose all your birds.

Colour mutations DO naturally occur in the wild. A lot of birds that were originally caught in the wild many years ago, were either split blue or lutino. There are also Fallow Rainbow Lorikeets in the wild. There wouldn't have been the selection of mutations that we have today if it weren't for human interference but nowadays, we know more on the topic of hybridising birds and we know the dangers it can present.

But because you asked, i will tell you. You need to breed a Blue Ringneck with a Green Alexandrine. Then all the babies will be Green/Blue Ringneck x Alexandrine. Then you have to keep on breeding them back to normal Green Alexandrines for about 8-10 years until you get the true Alex size back. Then you can breed 2 Green/Blues together. SO if you want to waste 10 years of your life ruining gene pools and genetic make-up of two beautiful birds, then go ahead :roll:

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Datsun and Family
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Post by Datsun and Family » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:38 am

Well said Jeremy!

I applaude Jeremy for giving the information even though he strongly disagrees with the ethics of this breeding.

mubashir: You have entered an Indian Ringneck Forum, we LOVE these birds and their beautiful cousins and welcome new members with open arms. We will always share our opinions and be honest on this board, it is how we keep this community alive. You are asking how to do immoral, unethical (in my eyes and those of many others) and in many places illegal breeding of birds.

Jeremy has been so kind as to give you all the information you have requested but do not expect us not to disuade you from this pairng. These birds are stunning as they are and you will see many of us own 'boring' 'dull' GREEN ringnecks, I for one think even 'plain' ol' green is absolutely to die for.

Jade has expressed her honest opinion and appologised for upsetting anyone but she has every right to feel upset about this topic, it is a sore point with many people and breeders alike.

Please do not mess with perfection, there are other ways to obtain a blue Alexandrine and even if there werent there is nothing wrong with GREEN!!!!!
-Chamon-

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Post by kyria » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:57 am

Kudos Jeremy! what a wonderful family member to have with us. :D
Angie
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Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
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mubashir
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Post by mubashir » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 am

thanks for the advise
i am an ardent bird lover and disturbing gene pool is never an intention.experimenting for new colours is hobby i look for. i was ref by a friend to this basic technique to experimenting new colour varieties. I may not be very well conversant with the rules of game but certainly look forward to get more info
nevertheless i am sorry if i have offended anyone

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Post by Jeremy » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:36 am

Don't worry about it mate, i am just glad to came here for help, rather than jumping in head first like so many people do :roll:
There are other ways to experiment with different colour other than hybridising. I believe in Europe some of the Alexandrine Mutations are actually pure (Blue and Lutino) the rest seem a bit suspect.

I wouldn't call hybridising different species of birds to get 'new' mutations a basic technique. It takes a lot of knowledge to know what you are doing and a lot of time and effort. If you want to get into experimenting with new colours, may i suggest you get into breeding Peachface Lovebirds. There are literally hundreds of different mutations available in Peachfaces and they are so easy to breed.

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Post by Mikaela » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:24 am

Jeremy:

In case you missed my post.

http://www.indianringneck.com/board/vie ... php?t=1377
~ Mikaela Sky

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annasturm
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Re: genetics

Post by annasturm » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:24 pm

People sort of bug me when it comes to topics like this. Saying how wrong it is, and in some cases, they're right.
But without hybrids you wouldn't have such birds like Red Factor canaries. And theres nothing wrong with those is there?

And whats so wrong with breeding two birds of the same sub-species to eachother? It's not really interbreeding in a sense. They are both ringneck parakeets. Lots of sub species have bred with others. Be it naturally or not.

When it comes to this topic, it's all about careful planning, patience and responsibility. ALOT of responsibility. I personally see no problem with it, as long as it is done responsibly, and does not harm the health of the bird. As long as they belong to the same sub-species, why should there be a problem with it? People breed different Electus sub-species together all the time, so how is this any different?

To get a blue ringneck, it is best to breed a blue female ringneck (The biggest and well bred you can find) to a large male alexandrine with excellent wing coloration. Breeding a male ringneck to a female alexandrine will create different colours right off the bat, but the birds will have lots of problems. Mainly fertility will be the issue.

If you breed the blue ringneck female to the male alexandrine, you will receive normal alexandrine hens and split blue alexandrine cocks. This is where it starts to matter. You need to find the biggest alexandrine hen with good markings and breed it back to the alexandrine cocks split for blue. You will get cocks that are split to blue, cocks that do not carry the blue gene, hens that do not carry the blue gene and blue Hens! The hens produced at this stage will lack size and will have smaller wing patches than the normal Alexandrine.

Seens you don't know what cocks are split, it is best to use the visual blues for the next step. Breed the hens to the biggest alexandrine male you can find. The chicks will be similar to the first step. Hens will be normal, but the cocks will be split for blue.

The next step will be the same as the second pairing. Pair the splits to a good normal alexandrine. You will again get some blue hens, except this time hopefully bigger and better than the ones previously.

From here you're pretty much repeating each step, but with each generation, you're getting chicks that are increasing in size and beginning to resemble alexandrines. Around the fifth
generation it becomes very difficult to see any major differences between the normal
and the blue alexandrine.

Now, how do you get a blue cock? You need to breed a blue hen to a alexandrine split for blue. This should only be attempted once you have a good line of blue hens all large alexandrine size.

This is something that can take longer than 10 years so should not be attempted by people who don't have the patience or who lack the responsibility to retain proper records of each and every bird. All birds should be banded. And any birds you sell should only be sold as pets unless sold to people interested in breeding the blue gene as well. The pure alexandrine gene needs to be kept so there must not be any interbreeding between alexandrines and birds that owners do not know are split for blue. This is why they must only be used for pets.

From my experience, this is what I know to be correct. This is the information I have been given from alexandrine breeders.

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Re: genetics

Post by Recio » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:11 pm

Hi annasturm;

Nothing to say about ethics (this is completely subjective) but about transfering mutations between IRN and Alexandrines: the protocol you have just described is made up to transfer sex-linked mutations. Blue is a recesive mutation so you can not get visual blue alexandrine females just carrying only one cromosome with the blue mutation.
Blue alexandrines do exist (look here: http://www.gencalc.com/gen/eng_genc.php?sp=0PsitAlex). Do not ask me if blue occurs as a "natural" mutation or by transfer of the mutated gen from IRN or other psittacula. I do not know it.
Anyway the protocol that you have just described could by used to transfer opaline or pallid genes from IRN to alexandrines. These mutations do not exist in alexandrines (see: http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... patria.htm) and both are sex linked mutations.

Cheers

Recio

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xx_sheena_xx
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Re: genetics

Post by xx_sheena_xx » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:28 pm

It’s not wrong to hybridise birds!
People do it all the time; if they didn’t want to breed together the birds wouldn’t do it.
Hybrids and just like color mutations to me, so if you don’t like hybrids why like mutations?
So you shouldn’t like blues, yellows, lutinos and all the other color mutation except for green.
What about other species of birds? Like canaries, yellows, reds, brown and white, none of these are natural.
Cinnamon green cheeks are natural either. What about a sunday (sun conure crossed with a jenday)

Then you come in to fish, flowerhorns and lots of other fish are hybrids including GOLDFISH
And goldfish are the most popular species of fish in the world.

Some one said people don’t try to cross cats and dogs, well people would have tried to but their gene pool is too different for it to work.
Cats are hybrids, how do you think they made them?? From breeding wild cats to each other to make them smaller and smaller ECT
Same with dogs, they would have started by breeding dingos, wolves, ECT to each other to make the domestic dog.

Alex’s and IRN's are very closely related and in the wild they would breed with each other occasionally.
If its wrong to breed two closely related bird species together then why isn’t it wrong to breed two different purebreds of dogs together or cats?

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Re: genetics

Post by pinkdevil » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:02 pm

In the wild cross breeding does occur occassionally.

It has been proven with reptiles, snakes as an example. There are two species of snakes where boundry territory cross over, have interbred naturally and have now been recognised recently as a 'new' sub species.

Sometimes, love knows no bounds. :wink:

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smallworld
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Re: genetics

Post by smallworld » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:28 am

Well this was an interesting read!! I never noticed this post.

I do not know where my stand on hybridising is. You see when horses breed with donkeys you get a bad word and also a sterile animal. People do breed different species of lovebirds together. The result more often than not is sterile.
But if I go with the last post by Pinkdevil about the interbreeding of snakes, I think thats cool. I think thats interbreeding for the survival of a species, maybe or maybe not, due to a lack of genetics in the region. In which case interbreeding is better than inbreeding.

But if I go with some of the other arguments up there, which say that birds in captivity do it all the time, well thats bullshit. Sorry, rather blunt I know. But they wouldnt if they had a choice. A green ringneck would never choose a blue ringneck over a green. Maybe there is a small percentage of that happening, a very small percentage, but in general it doesnt happen. Hence birds dont go shopping on the other side, looking for the exotic. Thats us. Thats humans. Birds like every other animal look toward the best way for the continuation of their species. So it only breeds with another bird species, when left with no choice or presented with little choice.

Thats my opinion. I hate it when people do stuff for money. Like breeding for colors and trying to make things in nature look better. Thats a very human take on the situation and it destroys the genetic pool. In many countries its illegal to release a bird you bought or have in captivity that stems from captive breeding lines, because it will pollute the natural genetic pool. Hence, creating various genetic anomalies.

But this thread was interesting :)

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Re: genetics

Post by xx_sheena_xx » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:15 am

sorry to say but birds will pick any other bird they want
i have a cinnamin ringeck who is green and she loves the blue baby im handraising and hates the white, yellow and green ones
she is also inlove with my budgie

my male budgie is white and he preferes blue females then any other color

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Re: genetics

Post by smallworld » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:46 am

You said you have a cinnamon ringneck. There you go. Its a bird thats a result of inbreeding. Hence its own genetic pool is polluted, therefore its process of natural selection has been misguided. Common among birds in captivity.

Go to India, get a ringneck thats green ( a wild caught one), then try breeding it with a blue or some other ringneck, while a green one is in the cage too. It wont work.

Thats called natural selection. They select to preserve their genetics and they select the best. What we have in captivity is the result of father having intercourse with daughter or grandfather having intercourse with niece. The whole genetic pool is a messed up inbreeding pool. The result of which, we get a splendor of colors. Of course we as people are very entertained by this. The birds and other animals are not.

Its really a proven fact. Thats why in New Zealand for example, you're not allowed to release a Kakariki into the wild even if you have a green one. Because although you may have a wild colored bird, it comes from a genetic line of maybe a lutino or pied crossed with a wild. This is weaker genetics. The birds with weaker genetics dont live as long as the birds with 'nature intended' genetics.

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Re: genetics

Post by xx_sheena_xx » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:14 am

:lol:
thats why wild caught bush budgies will breed with captive and english budgies ey?
exactly birds dont care what the other bird looks like!
they go for personality unlike people who go for looks first
you know if you have two clutches of ringnecks that are of different bloodlines and you have them in an avery together they are more likely to breed with their own siblings then the other ringnecks?

now lets say you believe in god, and the bible
god aparently created only two of each species of animal therefore all animals of the same species are related, so if your a relegious person it would be more logical to breed a ringneck to an alex because they are two different species and wouldnt be related at all.
now to take that even further, adam was the only person created, then aparently he got lonely so god created him eve which was made out of his rib so they would have been related in the first place, they only had two sons, so to keep the population going the sons had to have intercourse with their mother to keep the population, ect, ect. until their was jesus but jesus was the son of god and mary and mary would have been the great great great ect ect ect grand daughter of adam and even so still compleatly inbred. so if you think about religion, only jesus had new bloodline in him so the whole population of people would be inbred and so would be animals.

i personally think that a green ringneck is no better then any other color and vis versa.
no species is better then another.
an inbred animal is no worse then an animal that isnt inbred, it still deserves to be treated properly.

if you belive a natual color of bird is better then a man made color why be on a site where most people have a mutation?
what about people?
do you belive one nationality is better then another?
im from australia, but my family came from england like most peoples, does that make me less important than an aboriginal person who has been here for thousands of years?

if there is a thing called being rasist to other nationalities, then why not to different colored animals?
animals deserve as much respect as people do, no matter what color they are.

in the wild alex's breed with indian ring necks, so why not let them in captivity?????
we let our dogs breed with different species so why not birds?
seriously whats the difference? a dogs a dog, a birds a bird, a cats a cat, and a person is a person, so why not let different species and colors breed together???

i dont descriminate anthing on its color, shape, look or if or if not its a purebreed.
i dont feel i have the right to do that because i feel like it would make me more superior then them and im not.
if you feel you have to judge an animal on its purebreed then thats up too you but people shouldnt tell other people what to do with their birds.
or call the offsring abominations.

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smallworld
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Re: genetics

Post by smallworld » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:20 am

oops
Last edited by smallworld on Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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smallworld
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Re: genetics

Post by smallworld » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:23 am

Your arguement against years of scientific research is the bible????

I am a doctor, you can consider me to be a scientist. I have a scientific explanation for a situation. Years of training and research cannot be thrown in the garbage because a little girl comes along and claims thats what the bible said. Sorry I've nothing against the bible. Actually I do believe in God but I do not believe in religion. I would never use religion to defend any theory of science.

I am not on this forum because of people like yourself. I am on this forum to help people better understand this species, as well as better my own knowledge of the species, SCIENTIFICALLY.

What you personally think of an inbred animal or human doesnt matter to the scientific community. Why not ask the researchers in New Zealand to open up and let everyone release kakarikis into the wild. An inbred bird is genetically weak. Congenital diseases are present whether you like it or not. Blues and yellows and whatever else you can think of are an absent of a certain pigment gene.

By the way lady, stop shooting the gun. You can hardly call me a racist. My wife and I are of 2 different colors and in the football worldcup, I am a Brasilian fan, although I've never even been there. I also speak 6 different languages and have lived in 4 different countries. Still think I am a racist?? Geeez! Under the skin, all blood is the same color, regardless whether human or animal.

I do not judge, I am not the omnipresent. I merely state what I've read in literature. I used to know a friend in New Zealand who was involved in the salvation of the red crown parakeet (kakariki) and hence I knew their criteria outline and why what we keep in captivity is considered a polluted genetic pool. What you have at home in many different colors are the result of inbreeding! These birds would never have done that, if left to themselves. All our birds would still be green. But no man is greedy. He wants to make profit from his hobby and friends. Thus you have genetic mutations in assorted colors. But do you think the genetic defects in those birds are only so superficial?? Do you really think that in all those birds its only the phenotype that is a variation and no part of the genotype has been harmed?

By the way, what do you know about the anthropology of man? I hope it isnt from the Bible. 65000 years ago there was a volcanic explosion from Toba in Indonesia. Large populations of modern man were wiped out. People cant be 100% certain of this but since the world was put into a volcanic winter, it is safe to assume so. Therefore we ran out of bloodlines, looked for others and now we too are inbred. New evidence suggest that modern man at some point has crossbred with the neanderthals too. Not because adam and eve suddenly managed to shoot up more than 6 billion kids.

Which is why I said Pinkdevils answer about the snakes was cool. Because man did this too in order to survive. So I do not know my stand on hybridising but I do know my stand on inbreeding.

If you do want a good discussion about genetics, I'm game. I'm even game to admit I'm wrong, when I am. But dont come in here shooting your mouth off calling me a racist. Because I am far away from that and I dont need to prove myself. I save a life whether its brown, white, black or even when its covered in fur.

Oh yes maybe you're not that apt with paying attention. I did say that the occasional exception does exist to the rule where a certain animal may choose to inbreed.

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Re: genetics

Post by xx_sheena_xx » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:27 pm

i wasnt calling you rasist, have you never heard of a rectorical question???
but alot of people in this post seem to be rasist to other color mutations then the normal green, even though blues and lutinos natualy acure in the wild.

i wouldnt call you a scientist for being a doctor, doctors diagnoise people, they dont discover new diseases, the people who do are called scientists, not the doctors.

i dont even believe in god, otherwise his name would be spelt with a capital, but alot of people here do.
but really how do we now how many people started the world? and how many animals?
we cant no for sure, so we are probaly all inbred.

green indian ringnecks are no better then any other color, every green ringneck that doesnt have any splits that i have personaly seen has been of less a quality then mutation colors.

i dont really care what you want to believe but im sick of people saying that green is the only color.

and im hoping im not the silly little girl your talking about, because if i am then the whole christian relegion is going to die seeing as i dont even beleive in it.
plus little to me is like 8 and younger and im not that young.

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smallworld
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Re: genetics

Post by smallworld » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:19 am

I dont care how old you are.

First stick to the facts next time. Dont drag the Colonization of Australia and the holy Bible into a matter with birds. Rhetorical questions have a sense of implying the wrong thing. You should know that before using it.

Secondly if I say you could call me a scientist its because I could be called that. I diagnose about 2 patients a month now. I do research on cancer and other things as well. Scientist would be in my opinion a broad term for a man/woman of science. Happy now?

I believe in God because when you got someone lying on the table and his hearts out with the bypass machine running and you plan on bringing him back, whether the patient is atheist or not, the doctor and the nurses have their hearts in their throats praying he'd be back. I've seen too many medical miracles to believe, its all just science. Even the great physicist Albert Einstein believed in God. I do not believe in religion. I do not need a middle man to communicate with God. So now I have my opinion of God cleared up for you. Whether Christianity lives or dies, plays no role to me.

Humans are inbred. We have evolved from populations of only thousands to the colossal mass we are today. Hence we have more diseases. Even if not all diseases are genetic, alot of them are genetically predisposed, or we're more susceptible to a certain disease. Example, Scandinavians are alot more susceptible to multiple sclerosis. The Caucasian population in general are more susceptible to skin cancer.

If you do not believe that the wild colored birds are hardier than their mutation cousins, then you have failed to understand the logic behind years and years of research. Perhaps its a little naive but hopefully with a better understanding of genetics you will know why I said that. I do not discriminate birds of any color. I personally find grey IRNs very attractive. However that does not make the process of inbreeding to produce such mutations right.

By the way the chances of a lutino or blue occurring in the wild, is kind of like the chances of finding a blue lobster. Yes there are blue lobsters. If they do occur in the wild, they acquire much less breeding attention from their wild colored cousins. This is done not because they dont like the color or being racist but because of the process of natural selection. Something inside those birds tells them the genetics of the other birds are weaker. This is true. Like it or not, such a thing exists. Which is why I find it cute and nice when a bird picks out a mate and if by accident a mutation occurs, its alright. However, we humans have a way of manipulating everything to our benefit. We force the breeding and the mutations so we can satisfy our needs. Sometimes because you just want to see what it will be like and sometimes because, you want to make money from it.

I think I've tried to the best of my time and knowledge to clear up for you what is said in alot of literature and research. IF you still believe in what you do, or would like to disprove their work and my statements, get a book or google it and read up on it in your free time. Then you'd see I am not being a 'Birdist'.

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Re: genetics

Post by ringneck » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:28 pm

hey, hey, hey! i understand ALL your points of view; however, let's keep it out of the forum. No politics or religion. We ALL have one thing in common--we love ringnecks :wink: I have locked this topic :cry:

Best Wishes,

IMRAN-C

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